REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

And circumcision

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Sunday, May 8, 2022 04:33
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Monday, August 5, 2013 7:35 AM

BYTEMITE


Because it came up.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/07/circumcision-rates-aver
ages-which-deceive/#.UflVj6y5JgE


A link that might not work, a request for thoughts, and a plea for NO PICTURES THANKS.

To AURaptor: if you want to talk about FGM, now's your chance.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 9:15 AM

AGENTROUKA


I approve.

There's rarely ever a medical necessity for circumcision on babies, and it just strikes me as fundamentally wrong to snip away at a tiny, helpless human being's genitals.

A German regional court declared it bodily harm in 2012 in a case where complications arose, prompting a ton of hoopla from religious groups (and some child=property minded parents) and oh-so-quickly there was a law making it legal for non-medical reasons. I am less than thrilled. I am biased against circumcision.

This strictly applies to boys. FGM is a whole other kettle of fish.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 10:25 AM

BYTEMITE


I dislike both, so I agree with you there. But I'm not sure it's so different from FGM after all.

The history of circumcision is interesting. I've heard a theory that suggests that it was originally done on Jewish slaves in the Roman Empire. Because of how obsessed the Romans were with man-hood, that was an act of reducing the humanity of the slave, and they also believed it made them more infertile.

Somehow that practice became embraced as a religious and national symbol for the Jewish people, kind of a reminder of their history and trials, and later on, after the exact reason behind it was forgotten, they made up explanations about hygiene and stories about protection from lilith. Oh, and repressing all those bad feels, of course, through reduced sensory capacity.

And then in the 19th century, suddenly a bunch of victorian prudes decided that much of the mental health conditions of the day stemmed from certain habits that circumcision could cure - much as they thought hysteria in women was due to "tension" in the womb and excess frigidity and therefore could be alleviated by molesting the women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision

Not sure why other groups in Africa might've done it though, since it's not just Europe.

In some people there are complications when young, and it has to be done because circulation of blood has been reduced. But otherwise circumcision seems like a cruel and oppressive and barbaric practice, no matter when or where it's practiced or what gender experiences it.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 10:47 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The history of circumcision is interesting. I've heard a theory that suggests that it was originally done on Jewish slaves in the Roman Empire. Because of how obsessed the Romans were with man-hood, that was an act of reducing the humanity of the slave, and they also believed it made them more infertile.



The wiki page on FGM has a similar theory, it being done to female slaves because it increased their value (more trustworthy, potentially less fertile) and it transformed into a "positive" cultural value.

Ouch.

I sort of get it as a rite of passage into adulthood. I still disapprove, but there are lots of weird recorded practices of mutilation or body alteration. Tattoos, scars, branding, knocking out front teeth(!) and such. Or footbinding, re-shaping the skull, elongated necks. In a more soft-core way, piercings. Altering the natural body is oddly popular in humanity, but I wonder why the line to mutilation is so often crossed.

What do you mean "not just Europe"? I wasn't aware Europe was a hotbed of circumcision?
ETA: Since the earliest recorded cases are from ancient Egypt, you could surmise Africa to be the origin of this practice, really.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 10:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

What do you mean "not just Europe"? I wasn't aware Europe was a hotbed of circumcision?
ETA: Since the earliest recorded cases are from ancient Egypt, you could surmise Africa to be the origin of this practice, really.



Well, they're not now. And Christian dominated Europe wasn't either really. But the religious idea was often associated with the Jewish people, and got the most attention from European Christians. So Europe was the one to make a big deal out of it.

Some tribes in Africa have their own traditions that appear unrelated, but circumcision is most commonly associated with Europe and the Mediterranean and the Middle East - at least, by people of European descent, but also by much of the rest of the world that does not circumcize.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 11:48 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

What do you mean "not just Europe"? I wasn't aware Europe was a hotbed of circumcision?
ETA: Since the earliest recorded cases are from ancient Egypt, you could surmise Africa to be the origin of this practice, really.



Well, they're not now. And Christian dominated Europe wasn't either really. But the religious idea was often associated with the Jewish people, and got the most attention from European Christians. So Europe was the one to make a big deal out of it.

Some tribes in Africa have their own traditions that appear unrelated, but circumcision is most commonly associated with Europe and the Mediterranean and the Middle East - at least, by people of European descent, but also by much of the rest of the world that does not circumcize.



But wouldn't not practicing it for the longest time, apart from a religious minority like the European jews, imply that it's really not a European thing? I'm totally confused, I never knew Europe was associated strongly with circumcision at all, Mediterranean or otherwise. I always associated it with the US (cultural), Judaism and Islam (religious).

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Monday, August 5, 2013 12:45 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

imply that it's really not a European thing?


Most people don't automatically think of the Middle East or Africa first when they think of circumcision. And when people talk about the "Western world" and "western civilization" and the religions that established the social mores that lead to widespread practices in Europe and America, they think of Europe as an originator of that culture.

You just said that people in Germany complained about a ruling against circumcision, so they passed a law that allows for non-medical circumcision. It's a part of European culture and therefore western culture, even if it's not as common in Europe as in America, and even if it's more common in Muslims than either.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 12:46 PM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Because it came up.



If this was incidental or deliberate, don't care - laughed so hard I hurt myself.

As for the topic - do not care one iota one way or the other. May as well argue about which is the one and true religion.


Oh let the sun beat down upon my face;
With stars to fill my dream;
I am a traveler of both time and space;
To be where I have been

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Monday, August 5, 2013 12:49 PM

BYTEMITE


I thought there might be some innuendo, but I thought "eh, screw it."

The conversation is not so much about "religion" and more about abuse and changing acceptance or non-acceptance of abuse.

However, you do not have to have a position, because circumcision is not always seen as a thing to be concerned about by everyone.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 6:26 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

imply that it's really not a European thing?


Most people don't automatically think of the Middle East or Africa first when they think of circumcision. And when people talk about the "Western world" and "western civilization" and the religions that established the social mores that lead to widespread practices in Europe and America, they think of Europe as an originator of that culture.

You just said that people in Germany complained about a ruling against circumcision, so they passed a law that allows for non-medical circumcision. It's a part of European culture and therefore western culture, even if it's not as common in Europe as in America, and even if it's more common in Muslims than either.



The originator of the American cultural practice would pretty much be Victorian Britain. Continental Europe never caught on with that new trend in the 19th century and even today, circumcision rates in most European countries are below 20%, some at 10 or lower, which is counting the fast-growing religious minorities that do take it very seriously. The (former) colonies of Britain were more receptive and sport significantly higher rates, at least in the recent past.

The people in Germany who complained didn't do it because it's a widely accepted practice. The majority of citizens don't care or are against the law. The ones who complained were religious groups (Jewish and Muslim) and a minority of parents who reject general state interference.

Really, "Europe" is a very ill-advised term to use when talking about origins of circumcision. Some people may think this, but it's really inaccurate.

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Monday, August 5, 2013 7:01 PM

BYTEMITE


It's a western civilization thing, which means Europe - even the places in Europe where it wasn't so prevalent still had more incidence of it than say the far east or most of Africa (as only a select few tribes of Africa do this). Only Muslims do more circumcisions, but Muslims weren't around as long as Jewish folk in Europe have been.

But all right then, England, if you insist.

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:00 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's a western civilization thing, which means Europe - even the places in Europe where it wasn't so prevalent still had more incidence of it than say the far east or most of Africa (as only a select few tribes of Africa do this). Only Muslims do more circumcisions, but Muslims weren't around as long as Jewish folk in Europe have been.

But all right then, England, if you insist.



I think you have the entirely wrong idea about Africa. Or circumcision as a Western civilization thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision

Quote:


Male circumcision is most prevalent in the Muslim world (near-universal), parts of Southeast Asia and of Africa, the United States, the Philippines, Israel, and South Korea. In contrast, it is rare in Europe, parts of Southern Africa, and most of Asia and Oceania.[5] In Latin America, prevalence is universally low.[6] The WHO states that "there is generally little non-religious circumcision in Asia, with the exceptions of the Republic of Korea and the Philippines".[5]



Many countries in Africa have over 80% circumcision rates, some over 90%.

In Europe, the majority of countries are below 20%, with only the Balkan region between 20% and 80%, some of those countries being majority muslim.


It may seem petty to insist on this, but it really would reflect an incorrect cultural attitude in Europe toward circumcision, past and present, with the exception of that trend in Victorian England, but even in the UK it's below 20% these days.

I only find this important in terms of the interesting contrast between Western countries that embraced non-medical, non-religious circumcision and those that didn't.

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Jerusalem: built 4000 BCE

Judaism: circa 3000 BCE

Jewish predecessors make Jerusalem their seat of power: 1000 BCE

Mohammed unites tribes of Mecca and Medina: 622 CE

Jerusalem conquered by Muslims First Time: 634 CE

Jerusalem traded around a lot resulting in waves of expulsions of Muslims and Jews and Christians and Jews. Many Jews migrate into Europe.

Jerusalem conquered by Turkey and it sticks: 1517 CE

Judaism becomes a fundamental part of the landscape of western civilization.

Circumcision associated with western culture.

Western civilization becomes the predominant culture around world via various European Empires.

English Empire is the last European Empire, and English experience a renewed interest in the practice in the 1900s.

I think we're arguing two different though valid interpretations of the same basic facts.

It's not practiced much by Europe or even the UK, but it is also not inaccurate to associate it with Europe and western civilization, particularly the Jewish aspects of that history.

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:I think we're arguing two different though valid interpretations of the same basic facts.




I suspect that is very much the case. I'm not sure I agree with your logic on this, still, but it would just derail the thread. Let's just drop this tangent, then. On to other circumcision-based discussion! :)

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 9:09 AM

BYTEMITE


No problem. :)

I'm not sure anyone else is going to comment? I was hoping to hear from some people and get some opinions.

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 9:23 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, I'm always ready to stick it in the wringer (pun oh so horribly intended!) but I don't have a lot to SAY given you two covered most of the interesting ground already.

As with just about anydamnthing else, my default position is let the kid themself decide once they're old enough to make a properly informed decision and leave well they hell enough alone prior to that.

As for FGM, my brain kinda locks up at even the very notion and concept, just falls into a "WTF-IS-WRONG-WITH-YOU?!" loop and kinda sticks there, cause I simply cannot even conceive of the notion of sex without winding up the girls clock till it rings, so to speak, I mean... isn't that the whole effing POINT of non-procreative sex, really ?
Or am I just completely missing something here ?
*confused*
The only analogy I can even throw at it is removing the wheels from your car before trying to drive it, why just WHY?
Okay, I can't even think about it no more, I just keep getting snarled in the WTF loop, sorry.

-Frem

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Tuesday, August 6, 2013 11:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh I can think of reasons, none of which fall into the warm fuzzy category.

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:12 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I can only say that there was no way I was letting that happen to my son when he was a baby.

No longer very popular here, unless you are doing it for religious reasons.

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Thursday, August 8, 2013 11:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Meh. No big deal. I had enough to spare, so it's not so much an issue.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 8, 2022 4:33 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Within these religiosity groups there could be alliances

One group mutilates the genitals of little boys the other group mutilates the genitals of little girls

One of them calls their animal torture ritual 'Kosher' the other calls their animal torture rituals 'Halal'

Both of them want Dual Citizenships and Open Border?


Female genital mutilation in Imo state alarming-UNICEF
https://www.sunnewsonline.com/female-genital-mutilation-in-imo-state-a
larming-unicef
/

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