REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Students face felony charges in cyberbullying suicide case

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Monday, February 17, 2014 02:02
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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 3:23 PM

JONGSSTRAW


"Polk County deputies have arrested and charged a 12-year-old girl and 14-year-old girl with felony aggravated stalking after the death of Rebecca Sedwick.

Her mother has said her daughter was bullied by several people she knew before the girl took her own life.

The sheriff's office was looking into as many as 15 girls last month. Now, deputies say two girls face felony charges.

Rebecca was just 12 years old. Her mother says she was bullied at Crystal Lake Middle School, so she pulled her out and home-schooled Rebecca for a few months last year.

One of the girls charged had posted this to her Facebook page ...

"Yes i bullied REBECCA nd she killed her self but IDGAF"

==================================================================


It's Gore's fault. Him and his damn internet! Must be tough for kids these days.

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 3:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Hope those little thuggettes aren't any relation to Chrissy. I mean, sometimes evil like that can run in the family. Wishing others would die, over the internet ... that's just mean.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:02 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Hope those little thuggettes aren't any relation to Chrissy. I mean, sometimes evil like that can run in the family. Wishing others would die, over the internet ... that's just mean.


That's just the internet. It's an eldritch abomination that sprung from the human collective and which erodes empathy and humanity the longer you're in contact with it. Very few kids can handle prolonged exposure and come out whole and sane. Constant information and entertainment bombardment and rampant cruelty combine into a perfect storm of creating people who are easily bored and like to hurt other people for laughs.

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:31 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Hope those little thuggettes aren't any relation to Chrissy. I mean, sometimes evil like that can run in the family. Wishing others would die, over the internet ... that's just mean.


I know what you're referring to there, but in this situation a 12 year-old girl died, and the 12-year old girl who admitted bullying her wrote IDGAF. I don't tweet or text or Facebook, but I think I can figure out what that means. So the questions I have are ... how does a 12-year old girl get that way, and what is to be done with her.

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

how does a 12-year old girl get that way, and what is to be done with her.


1) Internet
2) Community Service

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

how does a 12-year old girl get that way, and what is to be done with her.


1) Internet
2) Community Service



I think we're well beyond community service. It wasn't enough that they drove this girl out, they seem to have kept after her, until she couldn't stand it any more. Kinda like here... certain folks start an entire thread purely for the purpose of attacking others , name calling them, and these are folks they don't even KNOW.

Takes a certain kind of coward to be so bent out of shape to do something like that.

Takes the mentality of a heartless 12 year old girl, it would seem.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:55 PM

JONGSSTRAW


I think the forum is the crux of the matter. There's a huge difference between posting anonymously versus posting to people you know from school or work. I imagine it could indeed be devastating, especially for emotionally fragile children.

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Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:01 PM

BYTEMITE


Okay, you might have a point, it's not just internet. I've known girls and guys who do this and never grow out of it. If anything being twelve is possibly an opportunity to fix it, it's an awkward terrible age of hormones and kids acting out and their personalities aren't set.

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:48 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


In the age of Facebook, parents have to be more vigilant. The mother of the dead girl took her out of the school to home-school her child, but she should have also monitored her Facebook account and sat down with her daughter to counsel her on the rigors of cyber-bullying.

Hope they throw the book at those 2 girls.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
"Polk County deputies have arrested and charged a 12-year-old girl and 14-year-old girl with felony aggravated stalking after the death of Rebecca Sedwick.

Her mother has said her daughter was bullied by several people she knew before the girl took her own life.

The sheriff's office was looking into as many as 15 girls last month. Now, deputies say two girls face felony charges.

Rebecca was just 12 years old. Her mother says she was bullied at Crystal Lake Middle School, so she pulled her out and home-schooled Rebecca for a few months last year.

One of the girls charged had posted this to her Facebook page ...

"Yes i bullied REBECCA nd she killed her self but IDGAF"

==================================================================


It's Gore's fault. Him and his damn internet! Must be tough for kids these days.


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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:50 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


The mentality is the same as those guys who killed the jogger in Oklahoma.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Hope those little thuggettes aren't any relation to Chrissy. I mean, sometimes evil like that can run in the family. Wishing others would die, over the internet ... that's just mean.


That's just the internet. It's an eldritch abomination that sprung from the human collective and which erodes empathy and humanity the longer you're in contact with it. Very few kids can handle prolonged exposure and come out whole and sane. Constant information and entertainment bombardment and rampant cruelty combine into a perfect storm of creating people who are easily bored and like to hurt other people for laughs.


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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 11:58 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I don't think community service will do anything to change that older girl's behavior (the one that wrote IDGAF - I don't give a f*ck) is 14 years old. How does a girl that young get that way?

Her parents are in denial and don't believe that she was the bully behind this tragedy. She reportedly did not show any remorse or emotion when she was arrested. The clue of how she got that way could lie at the parents feet. For me, someone that remorseless should be thrown in jail, if only to scare the shit out of her. Maybe even have her Bungee jump that abandon paint tower, just so she can see what she went through.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

how does a 12-year old girl get that way, and what is to be done with her.


1) Internet
2) Community Service


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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:01 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


There's a big difference, we're adults. We can handle a little criticsm.
What these girls did was tantamount to pushing her off the roof top of that tower.

You cannot compare this to that.

Shame on you!


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

how does a 12-year old girl get that way, and what is to be done with her.


1) Internet
2) Community Service



I think we're well beyond community service. It wasn't enough that they drove this girl out, they seem to have kept after her, until she couldn't stand it any more. Kinda like here... certain folks start an entire thread purely for the purpose of attacking others , name calling them, and these are folks they don't even KNOW.

Takes a certain kind of coward to be so bent out of shape to do something like that.

Takes the mentality of a heartless 12 year old girl, it would seem.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall


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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:02 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Well said.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I think the forum is the crux of the matter. There's a huge difference between posting anonymously versus posting to people you know from school or work. I imagine it could indeed be devastating, especially for emotionally fragile children.


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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:03 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Also, well said.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Okay, you might have a point, it's not just internet. I've known girls and guys who do this and never grow out of it. If anything being twelve is possibly an opportunity to fix it, it's an awkward terrible age of hormones and kids acting out and their personalities aren't set.


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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 12:24 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Okay, you might have a point, it's not just internet. I've known girls and guys who do this and never grow out of it. If anything being twelve is possibly an opportunity to fix it, it's an awkward terrible age of hormones and kids acting out and their personalities aren't set.



Its true that bullying has always been a thing, but it used to be once a kid went home for the day, it ended. Now, with phones and social media, it follows them home.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA



*ahem*
What would HAPPEN to you, if you did that to an adult, hmmm ?
So why, as always, is a free pass handed out so often on these ?

Because, once again, youth in our society have less rights and legal protection than a goddamn housepet - that's why.

-F

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 4:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

There's a big difference, we're adults. We can handle a little criticsm.
What these girls did was tantamount to pushing her off the roof top of that tower.

You cannot compare this to that.

Shame on you!


SGG



Shame on me for expecting adults to act like adults ? And what do you expect these girls will act like when they grow up ? ( 2 were charged, but I heard as many as 15 in total were in on the bullying )

I suspect they'll most likely all grow up to be Leftists, and post similar hate rhetoric on message boards as we've seen 1kiki and others of like mind do here.

Shame on THEM, is what you should be saying.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:00 PM

STORYMARK


Always count on the raptard to make anything into a poorly-thought-out attack on the left. Such a degenerate.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I don't think community service will do anything to change that older girl's behavior (the one that wrote IDGAF - I don't give a f*ck) is 14 years old. How does a girl that young get that way?

Her parents are in denial and don't believe that she was the bully behind this tragedy. She reportedly did not show any remorse or emotion when she was arrested. The clue of how she got that way could lie at the parents feet.





I've seen too many examples of bullying where it turns out it was intergenerational bullying and part of the town politics.

The parents might not be so much in denial but rather pretending to be, to play the same game they've always played where their family isn't held accountable.

Either that, or they're so terrible and incompetent at the whole parenting thing that they've raised one very spoiled brat. I guess we'll find out in the days to come.

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Always count on the raptard to make anything into a poorly-thought-out attack on the left. Such a degenerate.






Thanks for making my case for me!


Cheers!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 16, 2013 6:39 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
There's a big difference, we're adults. We can handle a little criticsm.
What these girls did was tantamount to pushing her off the roof top of that tower.

You cannot compare this to that.

Shame on you!


SGG




I think sometimes we forget around here that other people are human. I actually used to go into a suicidal downward emotional spiral with the slightest nudge, and I wouldn't really want to test that my skin has gotten any thicker.

I also can't exactly say that Auraptor is wrong to turn this around into a personal grievance, or that there's a time and place for that without sounding like the world's biggest hypocrite.

There is a time and place for that though. A young girl did just die.

/hypocrite

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Thursday, October 17, 2013 4:58 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I think we're well beyond community service.



Yeah, whip em with barbed wire.

Or better still - execute them. The US is still okay with offing minors? I know they were quite recently. Yeah, remove them from the gene pool for good.

[sarcasm/]


If adults want youngsters to stop bullying, including stop cyberbullying, then best they lead by example.

And as for PEOPLE here calling for punishment, IRONY ALERT anyone? Gosh, imagine the cruelty of taunting and abusing another online? Who would do such a thing?

Most of us, it would appear.

Hate to get all Christian about this, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone...baby


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Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I've seen too many examples of bullying where it turns out it was intergenerational bullying and part of the town politics.

The parents might not be so much in denial but rather pretending to be, to play the same game they've always played where their family isn't held accountable.



That's pretty much what I was thinking. I remember that when bullies in school finally ran up against someone who'd fight back, their parents would either threaten the other kid's parents, or whine that their child couldn't possibly do such a thing, or both. Either the bully and his parents were just alike, or they had no control over him. (Not to say there weren't girl bullies too, but in the early 60's boys didn't see much of that.)


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:13 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Always count on the raptard to make anything into a poorly-thought-out attack on the left. Such a degenerate.






Thanks for making my case for me!


Cheers!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall



Your case was that you'll turn a non political conversation into a nonsensical attack on the left?

You concealed your true meaning well.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 7:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Apple doesn't fall far from tree.

Quote:

Stepmother of 'bully' on abuse charge

The stepmother of a 14-year-old accused of bullying a Florida girl who took her own life has been arrested for child abuse after a video was posted online.

Vivian Vosburg, 30, is allegedly shown punching and hitting two boys in a video posted to Facebook in July 2013.

Ms Vosburg's stepdaughter was among two children charged with aggravated stalking this week, who are said to have bullied Rebecca Sedwick online.

Rebecca jumped to her death from a tower on 9 September.

Authorities said she was "terrorised" online and through text messages by up to 15 former friends.

Ms Vosburg identified herself as the mother of 14-year-old when she appeared on broadcasters CNN and ABC to say the girl did not bully Rebecca and that she checked her stepdaughter's Facebook every night.

Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said the bullying campaign had begun last year after the girl objected to Rebecca dating a boy whom she had been seeing.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24589032


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Your case was that you'll turn a non political conversation into a nonsensical attack on the left?

You concealed your true meaning well.



Hid it in plain site. Too bad ya missed it.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 10:21 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Apple doesn't fall far from tree.

Quote:

Stepmother of 'bully' on abuse charge

The stepmother of a 14-year-old accused of bullying a Florida girl who took her own life has been arrested for child abuse after a video was posted online.

Vivian Vosburg, 30, is allegedly shown punching and hitting two boys in a video posted to Facebook in July 2013.

Ms Vosburg's stepdaughter was among two children charged with aggravated stalking this week, who are said to have bullied Rebecca Sedwick online.

Rebecca jumped to her death from a tower on 9 September.

Authorities said she was "terrorised" online and through text messages by up to 15 former friends.

Ms Vosburg identified herself as the mother of 14-year-old when she appeared on broadcasters CNN and ABC to say the girl did not bully Rebecca and that she checked her stepdaughter's Facebook every night.

Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said the bullying campaign had begun last year after the girl objected to Rebecca dating a boy whom she had been seeing.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24589032




Doesn't surprise me one bit.

I suspect the vast majority of kids who bully do so because they are fundamentally damaged by neglect/abuse/harmful upbringing in some way, and pass the resulting aggression on to the next easiest victim.

I say this as someone who engaged in some very minor form of bullying as a young teen. It felt good. It was a form of power. It's sickening to think about it now, but I also know I wasn't evil, just utterly stunted with a boatload of unaddressed anger.

I wholly reject the term "spoiled brat". People don't become assholes because they have been treated too well. They become assholes because they have been taught to and/or because they are damaged in some way. Seems the girl in question had both of that.

The catastrophic consequences that her actions contributed to seem to have already locked her in denial ("IDGAF") and will make it all the harder for her to examine and reject that cycle and embrace her own agency because it would inevitably come with an overwhelming sense of guilt. She's likely to remain in that terrible frame of mind.

It's just a horrible case all around. Massive parental fail. The only good thing that might come of it is increased education on the dangers of bullying, online safety, communication.. One can hope, anyway.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:00 AM

BYTEMITE


As someone who has experienced a lot of bullying and fought a lot of bullies, I have in fact encountered many bullies who had no home life problems themselves, but were spoiled. Mostly self-righteous little assholes ostracizing people who aren't their religion. There are also the people with no home problems who participate because they're cowardly hanger-ons peer pressured into the bullying.

Over time, the bullying lessened, mostly because I wasn't in competition with anyone for their bullshit dating nonsense. I find myself entirely unsurprised that this was to do with a boy - disputes about boys are the most common cause of a group of girls that age turning on one of their own like this.

I concede she may not be spoiled, but rather troubled, although both are only one option out of many possibilities.

I don't know the girl or her history well enough to make that call. The stepmother hitting boys in the household could be indicative, if it is shown that the woman also was hitting the girl. Favouritism can be a thing that happens in families. The fact that the stepmother is reacting with complete ignorance could be either her trying to cover up the abuse, or, it could be that the girl is the favourite and the woman can't conceive of such a precious little girl doing anything wrong.

And as I said before, it could also be the parents were encouraging the girl to bully.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

when bullies in school finally ran up against someone who'd fight back, their parents would either threaten the other kid's parents, or whine that their child couldn't possibly do such a thing, or both.
Seen that.

Quote:

As someone who has experienced a lot of bullying and fought a lot of bullies, I have in fact encountered many bullies who had no home life problems themselves, but were spoiled. Mostly self-righteous little assholes ostracizing people who aren't their religion.
Not seen that as much. In our school, the jocks (football team, mostly) were the kings, and their court (cheerleaders) were the queens. They didn't personally bully people. But its possible that in your school, the religiously favored were themselves encouraged to bully by a sense of righteousness.


What I find kind of interesting is that these parents (mom AND dad) expressed a lot of control over their dd's internet life... "We know her passwords" "We check her posts". Perhaps they were trying to hide some unhealthy family dynamic.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
As someone who has experienced a lot of bullying and fought a lot of bullies, I have in fact encountered many bullies who had no home life problems themselves, but were spoiled. Mostly self-righteous little assholes ostracizing people who aren't their religion. There are also the people with no home problems who participate because they're cowardly hanger-ons peer pressured into the bullying.



But wouldn't you consider that being taught to be an asshole or harmful upbringing? And how do you know there were no home life problems? How would you define home life problems, to exclude what they may or may not have experienced?

I just find the idea of "spoiled" to be misleading because it implies that not enough harshness was exacted on children, which I find a very problematic concept. It seems more likely they internalized a very hierarchical and divisive view of the world, where non-compliance results in some form of aggression. That's the opposite of being treated (too) well.

Quote:


I concede she may not be spoiled, but rather troubled, although both are only one option out of many possibilities.

I don't know the girl or her history well enough to make that call. The stepmother hitting boys in the household could be indicative, if it is shown that the woman also was hitting the girl. Favouritism can be a thing that happens in families. The fact that the stepmother is reacting with complete ignorance could be either her trying to cover up the abuse, or, it could be that the girl is the favourite and the woman can't conceive of such a precious little girl doing anything wrong.

And as I said before, it could also be the parents were encouraging the girl to bully.



Whether she herself was physically abused is pretty irrelevant when you consider that she lived in an environment where abuse (openly) occurred. Being the favorite of an abusive parent still makes her an involuntary part of systematic abuse, just as a (captive) witness or accomplice, another form of victim. It's hugely damaging. Calling her "spoiled" should be utterly out of the question, shouldn't it?

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But its possible that in your school, the religiously favored were themselves encouraged to bully by a sense of righteousness.


Atheist raised in mormon central.

There was also some jock and cheerleader against the geeks stuff at my school, but most of my crew managed to get along okay with them. They did get a little nasty towards the guys who never left the computer labs and the people who wore cloaks or trenchcoats or cosplay to school though.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Cosplay to school. Oh dear.

There is a difference between being spoiled and being entitled. Or maybe I'm using the wrong words, but when you grow up in a family that enjoys some standing in the community, it's gonna rub off on you. Some of those "entitled" parents probably feel themselves to be superior authorities; whether they teach their children consciously or it rubs off unconsciously, that feeling of righteousness has got to make a difference.

By contrast, I find that "spoiled" children- children who are given everything- tend to be passive more than anything.

But all in all, it seems to me there are a lot of routes to bullying. Being abused in the house, or having superior community standing doesn't predict whether a person will be a bully or not. I think some kids start down that behavioral path for whatever reason, and they find it rewarding (and it IS intrinsically rewarding in many ways) and nobody cuts that short.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:10 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But all in all, it seems to me there are a lot of routes to bullying. Being abused in the house, or having superior community standing doesn't predict whether a person will be a bully or not. I think some kids start down that behavioral path for whatever reason, and they find it rewarding (and it IS intrinsically rewarding in many ways) and nobody cuts that short.



I very much agree with that. Especially the part I underlined.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:28 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But wouldn't you consider that being taught to be an asshole or harmful upbringing? And how do you know there were no home life problems? How would you define home life problems, to exclude what they may or may not have experienced?



I'm pretty sure the ones I'm thinking of were pampered little shits. It is possible to recognize the people who are troubled from the people who are just assholes and think they can treat other people however the hell they want. With the people who are troubled they actually take a break sometimes from being a jerk to people and sometimes care how they treat people. The other kind never lose their snobby self-assurance that they're perfect and everyone else is trash and beneath them.

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I just find the idea of "spoiled" to be misleading because it implies that not enough harshness was exacted on children, which I find a very problematic concept.


Oh, I see. No, I'm not a discipline freak. I wasn't suggesting any parenting methods - but if you're asking I would tend towards counseling and community service and involvement as a means of reversing a selfish entitlement complex in a kid. But some kids really are spoiled, sometimes people don't have any deep-seated family problems behind why they act like a jerk. I mean, you're talking to a perfect example right here.

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Being the favorite of an abusive parent still makes her an involuntary part of systematic abuse, just as a (captive) witness or accomplice, another form of victim. It's hugely damaging. Calling her "spoiled" should be utterly out of the question, shouldn't it?


Ehhh... I'm not really sure those are mutually exclusive. If she was a favourite and participated in bullying the other boys she could be both spoiled AND living in an abusive environment. How people respond under bad situations says a lot about their character. Some people don't become abusers themselves, some people do. I don't think very highly of the people who do, no matter what they themselves went through.

She could still turn around, though that's not going to bring back the girl who died. Mostly it's a shame that whatever was happening here went this far, and that none of the families were able to avert it.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:01 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
With the people who are troubled they actually take a break sometimes from being a jerk to people and sometimes care how they treat people. The other kind never lose their snobby self-assurance that they're perfect and everyone else is trash and beneath them.



I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Maybe we have different definitions of troubled, but I don't think there's a solid demarcation line between those who only occasionally bully being victims of harmful homelives and those who consistently bully being completely fine apart from inexplicably being assholes.



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I just find the idea of "spoiled" to be misleading because it implies that not enough harshness was exacted on children, which I find a very problematic concept.


Oh, I see. No, I'm not a discipline freak. I wasn't suggesting any parenting methods. More just saying some kids really are spoiled, sometimes people don't have any deep-seated family problems behind why they act like a jerk. I mean, you're talking to a perfect example right here.



No, I wasn't referring to physical discipline. I honestly think that the idea of kids being "spoiled" is nonsense. Not setting necessary boundaries or imparting a sense of divisive entitlement are a form of neglect or a form of miseducation. Neither are good things, but rather failures. The word "spoiled" implies that a kid was just treated too well, which is not at all the same thing.

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Being the favorite of an abusive parent still makes her an involuntary part of systematic abuse, just as a (captive) witness or accomplice, another form of victim. It's hugely damaging. Calling her "spoiled" should be utterly out of the question, shouldn't it?


Ehhh... I'm not really sure those are mutually exclusive. If she was a favourite and participated in bullying the other boys she could be both spoiled AND living in an abusive environment. How people respond under bad situations says a lot about their character. Some people don't become abusers themselves, some people do. I don't think very highly of the people who do, no matter what they themselves went through.



How is that spoiled, though? How is witness and watching abuse anything but its own form of abuse? In this scenario she is literally raised in an abusive environment, taught to be an accomplice (if not being a victim herself) and then when she absorbs what she is literally taught it becomes a question of intrinsic character, her own responsibility, at age 14, to have rejected these messages she likely was fed her entire life?

I think this view minimizes how difficult it would be for a child and young teen to even identify her environment as abnormal and abusive and then autonomously overcome behavior cycles that are deeply ingrained, something that takes many adults years of therapy to achieve.

I know some people do manage to break these cycle and reject these messages, but I also think there are identifiable reasons why some do and some don't. Reasons more tangible than "character", anyway.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:14 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Maybe we have different definitions of troubled, but I don't think there's a solid demarcation line between those who only occasionally bully being victims of harmful homelives and those who consistently bully being completely fine apart from inexplicably being assholes.



I think it's more that I'm not being clear. With people who are troubled, you're right, sometimes it's non-stop bullying and hell-raising, sometimes it seems like no one can get through to them. But with people who are troubled versus people who are assholes, sometimes the mask breaks. Sometimes you see them regret.

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Not setting necessary boundaries or imparting a sense of divisive entitlement are a form of neglect or a form of miseducation. Neither are good things, but rather failures.


I don't think we can blame everything that kids do and how they act on their parents or guardians. Kids aren't just little handpuppets we raise, they have their own ideas and personalities and they make their own choices. Sometimes the environment is less than ideal, but the measure of the person is how they react in response to that environment.

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and then when she absorbs what she is literally taught it becomes a question of intrinsic character, her own responsibility, at age 14, to have rejected these messages she likely was fed her entire life?


Absolutely. Frankly, she should have rejected the message earlier if it bothered her. I'm not so sure it DID bother her.

I mean, ask Frem, who was raised around some pretty extreme racism and religious intolerance about kids suffering abuse deciding to reject that abuse. Kids aren't passive participants in their own lives, and they aren't locked up unable to learn what the outside world considers normal or right or wrong. If you perpetuate abuse, you have some responsibility in that, no matter how old you are or what your history was.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 2:00 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think it's more that I'm not being clear. With people who are troubled, you're right, sometimes it's non-stop bullying and hell-raising, sometimes it seems like no one can get through to them. But with people who are troubled versus people who are assholes, sometimes the mask breaks. Sometimes you see them get upset or have regret.



But if abuse turned them into assholes, how would you even be able to tell? The "mask" doesn't break, but they're still products of the same thing they are dishing out.

I just can't accept this dichotomy as valid.

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Not setting necessary boundaries or imparting a sense of divisive entitlement are a form of neglect or a form of miseducation. Neither are good things, but rather failures.


I don't think we can blame everything that kids do and how they act on their parents or guardians. Kids aren't just little handpuppets we raise, they have their own ideas and personalities and they make their own choices. Sometimes the environment is less than ideal, but the measure of the person is how they react in response to that environment.



So you think there is an intrinsic form of character that simply exists in people and how they are taught from day one how the world works has insignificant influence on how they eventually interact with the world?

If so, I'd have to disagree. I don't deny that genetic disposition plays a big role in personality formation alongside environment, but to deny the influence of environment in terms of how abuse would affect subsequent behavior.. that seems incomplete to me.

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and then when she absorbs what she is literally taught it becomes a question of intrinsic character, her own responsibility, at age 14, to have rejected these messages she likely was fed her entire life?


Absolutely. Frankly, she should have rejected the message earlier if it bothered her. I'm not so sure it DID bother her.



If you don't know that what you experience is abuse, if you are raised to identify with the abuser, where do you gain the perspective to reject that cycle? You're placing a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of children.

Quote:


I mean, ask Frem, who was raised around some pretty extreme racism and religious intolerance about kids suffering abuse deciding to reject that abuse. Kids aren't passive participants in their own lives, and they aren't locked up unable to learn what the outside world considers normal or right or wrong. If you perpetuate abuse, you have some responsibility in that, no matter how old you are or what your history was.



I feel uncomfortable using his personal life as a reference here. If he wants to chime in, he's more than welcome, but that's not my resource and I could hardly adequately use it, knowing extremely little and only from vaguely recalling what he mentioned in these forums.

I'm not saying that outside norms don't come into the lives of children, but even in non-abusive circumstances there's a contrast between the ideals we espouse and how the world works. If you are raised in an abusive environment and are not specifically confronted with a credible contrasting picture - which would also be received within the framework of that abusive world view, not neutrally - and there is no credible interference when you yourself express the abusive behavior you learned... how exactly are you going to suddenly reject that learned world view?

Does this girl bear responsibility for her behavior? Yes, actually, I believe so. Is she also likely a product of an abusive environment that taught, tolerated and rewarded her behavior - and should this be considered when evaluating her case and the extend of her responsibility? Utterly.

To condemn her as somehow inherently, deliberately degenerate because she internalized her environment, especially when she is still young enough for positive changes to have a real impact on her destructive world view? I can't condone that.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 2:19 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But if abuse turned them into assholes, how would you even be able to tell? The "mask" doesn't break, but they're still products of the same thing they are dishing out.



It does. If it is a mask then it MUST break.

You're viewing this from your own frame of reference that you "never broke" and that you were cruel to people. But you would not be the person you are right now if the mask hadn't broken at some point.

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So you think there is an intrinsic form of character that simply exists in people and how they are taught from day one how the world works has insignificant influence on how they eventually interact with the world?


No, but I am saying that people have responsibility for their own actions, no matter what.

I don't buy genetic inheritance of anything behavioural. Even twin studies have been shown to have been flawed.

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If you don't know that what you experience is abuse, if you are raised to identify with the abuser, where do you gain the perspective to reject that cycle? You're placing a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of children.



Damn right I do, because it's the same responsibility I'd place on any other human being barring extenuating circumstances like being locked up. They have the ABILITY to find out what things are like outside their family. Even INFANTS can intrinsically recognize concepts like fairness and right and wrong and abuse.

If they do not question their complicity in abuse, then that is because they do not WANT to question. That isn't just the abuse, that's also a failing on their own part. Humans are imperfect sometimes, and sometimes they harm other people. Is it wrong for me to say that victims of abuse can sometimes do wrong themselves? Her parents may be awful people, but this one is on her.

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To condemn her as somehow inherently, deliberately degenerate because she internalized her environment, especially when she is still young enough for positive changes to have a real impact on her destructive world view? I can't condone that.


Uh... What? Since when did I say she is inherently, deliberately degenerate, or dismiss her capacity for change? When did I stop advocating that she receive counseling, and get involved with the community to build more healthy bonds and emotional understanding with people. Did I suddenly join the ranks of the people who hate her and are calling for her blood when I wasn't paying attention?

She made a mistake, allowing herself to get caught up in bullying for whatever gratification it might give her. It shows poor character. Character can be improved. I don't understand why my opinion on this bothers you. We both seem to think she bears responsibility.

I think you're mistaking my arguments for something else. I'm not sure this obstacle is surmountable for this conversation.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 3:55 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You're viewing this from your own frame of reference that you "never broke" and that you were cruel to people. But you would not be the person you are right now if the mask hadn't broken at some point.



Actually, I'm not. I didn't reference myself in talking about masks and wouldn't describe myself in these terms at all. I think the vast majority of people wouldn't have considered me a bully, as the instances where I engaged in that behavior were relatively rare and not witnessed by many. The person who might describe me in absolute terms as a bully is the one I acted that way towards. It's a valid POV for her, but an incomplete picture of me as a person then. Which is why I don't fully subscribe to your perspective on some people's "masks breaking" and others just being fully bad. You can't know who they are in the moments you don't see.

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Quote:

So you think there is an intrinsic form of character that simply exists in people and how they are taught from day one how the world works has insignificant influence on how they eventually interact with the world?


No, but I am saying that people have responsibility for their own actions, no matter what.



Then I guess we disagree mainly in terms of how early and how completely that responsibility should be considered to start, when you consider degrees of behavior. Obviously, even a kid will have the knowledge that violence is officially considered wrong, but how deeply ingrained is the message just HOW harmful verbal abuse is? How there are legal consequences to it in the "real world", when they witness it as normal every day, directed at them and others?

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Damn right I do, because it's the same responsibility I'd place on any other human being barring extenuating circumstances like being locked up. They have the ABILITY to find out what things are like outside their family. Even INFANTS can intrinsically recognize concepts like fairness and right and wrong and abuse.



Yeah, we really disagree on that. I think outside circumstances play a LOT into how capable we are of recognizing the extend of what constitutes abuse, and how capable we are of using that knowledge to transform ourselves. Especially in someone very young who is in a much more pronounced state of dependence compared to an adult.

People, especially children, who are capable of independently escaping and rejecting such cycles and twisted values are to be admired, but I wouldn't expect that from most young teens. I think 14 is about the age where most kids might START to have enough perspective to question what is awry, especially if denial is practiced in the family.

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If they do not question their complicity in abuse, then that is because they do not WANT to question. That isn't just the abuse, that's also a failing on their own part.



How about denial? Or a just developing perspective on family dynamics and the relative power (and fallibility) of adults and parents? I think you're expecting quite a bit of insight from your average kid inside an abusive situation.

As I said, I can sort of get behind your take on personal responsibility for actual actions, increasingly the more obviously actions are fully and consistently condemned by society as a whole, but I can not agree with your take on how reasonably one can expect kids to independently free themselves of abuse cycles and parsing through society's much more mixed messages about behavior.

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Humans are imperfect sometimes, and sometimes they harm other people. Is it wrong for me to say that victims of abuse can sometimes do wrong themselves? Her parents may be awful people, but this one is on her.



But it doesn't exist in a vacuum, is all I'm saying. It seems to me like you're saying "Just stop being damaged!" to a very young person still developing toward adulthood and likely dealing with a metric ton of anger and confusion. They failed at venting their turmoil correctly, but the turmoil and lack of judgment are NOT all on her.

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To condemn her as somehow inherently, deliberately degenerate because she internalized her environment, especially when she is still young enough for positive changes to have a real impact on her destructive world view? I can't condone that.


Uh... What? Since when did I say she is inherently, deliberately degenerate, or dismiss her capacity for change? When did I stop advocating that she receive counseling, and get involved with the community to build more healthy bonds and emotional understanding with people. Did I suddenly join the ranks of the people who hate her and are calling for her blood when I wasn't paying attention?



Alright, I misunderstood when you made the distinction between "troubled" kids and kids who are "merely assholes". It felt like a wholesale dismissal of the latter group, the existence of which I don't buy. Your insistence that kids should just be able to recognize and reject abuse patterns also directed me to thinking you didn't consider therapy necessary or important.

I'm glad to be wrong about your take on her, then.

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I don't understand why my opinion on this bothers you. We both seem to think she bears responsibility.



I find myself quite sensitive to things that I believe belittle the struggles of young kids in abusive environments, and just how much it warps self-image and perception of the world. You struck a cord there, which is what bothered me.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 5:09 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

It felt like a wholesale dismissal of the latter group, the existence of which I don't buy.


That would be giving up on a good portion of the earth's population. I'm not quite that extreme of a misanthrope yet.

Quote:


I find myself quite sensitive to things that I believe belittle the struggles of young kids in abusive environments



It's not belittling them, I have to think that kids are able to understand what's going on and can have a choice. Because in some cases the only solution is to get them complete independence from their parents. I have to believe kids are fully capable. And if they're fully capable, then they also have responsibility if they do wrong.

If they don't, if they're really not in control of their own choices or their lives, and it's all a reaction to what the parents have done to them, then how exactly do we fix that?

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 6:20 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I have to believe kids are fully capable. And if they're fully capable, then they also have responsibility if they do wrong.



I don't think that. I think they ARE human beings in full possession of all rights a human being should have, but they are in a state of on-going development. Their brains don't mature until into their twenties. There is a vast range of capabilities and levels of insight and comprehension, especially when it comes to the complexities of power dynamics and their own agency, as well as realizing their own impact on others and their own levels of responsibility. They need and are entitled to support and help and education, and that doesn't, to me, conclude with saying they have the ability of (potentially) recognizing abusive environments and rejecting those messages. That, to me, seems like abandonment.

This knowledge needs to be actively given to them, not assumed that they can catch it among the myriad of other information they are soaking up alongside.

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If they don't, if they're really not in control of their own choices or their lives, and it's all a reaction to what the parents have done to them, then how exactly do we fix that?


I don't say it's 100% but I think that the opportunities given in a child's environment contribute to a majority of what they will initially be capable of expressing. How much control do kids really have, currently?

I think it is absolutely vital that kids are actively taught what abuse looks like. And what healthy looks like. And, most importantly, what options are available to them. Not some poster with a helpline on public transport, but much more directly, in schools, in classes. Children need to know what neglect or abuse is, so they can understand - while it is happening - if they experience it. Not 10 years later when they've gained some distance from home, some further education, and are slowly examining why they don't know how to overcome anxiety, self-hatred and depression. And they need safe places, with up-to-date information on how to protect themselves, how to deal with their emotions, how to get help. Kids seriously need resources like that, especially in that fragile time when it is dawning on them that something is wrong.

Schools, or all environments in which kids are under adult supervision, need to address bullying seriously, promptly. Not look away and pretend it's kids being kids, because that's just enabling and reaffirming that stuff.

There is a LOT that can be done that will provide these kids with capabilities of dealing with abuse far beyond just fuzzily lashing out. Assuming they already are capable is just not going to help.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 7:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


At my son's primary school, the most blatant bullying behaviour I observed was from some of the teachers who treated the kids appallingly. Shouting, demeaning, humiliating....the list of bullying behaviours went on, and it was all considered okay. And of course it was the worst form of bullying because of the power differential between very small kids and teachers. I used to observe - one particular class springs to mind - that the kids reflected this behaviour towards one another.

One theory I have about bullying is this... as small children we have a natural tendancy to want things our ways, and to get our own way in any way possible. That includes some pretty nasty behaviour, spitting, biting, hitting, tantrums are all pretty normal up to a certain age. Mostly parents discourage these behaviours and kids learn they will be punished if they continue, so they resort to other more manipulative and sneaky behaviours - setting up their siblings to get into trouble, constantly dobbing on others.... all pretty normal too. I think whether you continue to use those behaviours depend on a couple of things in your environment. Whether the adults around you are canny enough to see them and put a stop (in my experience - the more manipulative kids often get away with it or a rewarded for their behaviour)
And secondly, does the empathic part of the brain kick in as it should.

If you get a child who is rewarded for being manipulatively nasty and also lacks empathy, I think you have someone who is more likely to bully to get what they want - increasingly about status as a child grows older.

Many children grow into adults who have learned that bullying behaviour gets good results, and so they continue to do it.

There is a growing amount of research on cyberbullying and the impact of technology on teens in particular. As we see daily on this forum, it is much easier to abuse someone online than in real life. I'm sure most people here would never say to someones face what they say to other posters.

If someone calls me something abusive, that poster has no idea of the impact on me. They can't see whether I am crying, laughing or reaching for the hangmans rope. There is no consequence, emotional or otherwise of being abusive.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


There was a series of blogs where 20s to 30s adults, having carried childhood scars for years, wrote about finally getting up the nerve and confrontng their childhood bullies. Most of the time they got a big HUNH? `- there must be a mistake, it was all in fun, not that bad, I never did that and even I don't know who you are.

I'm sure history re-wrote a fair bit of memory, but the result was nearly 100% consistent.

What was going through their minds at the time seems like it had very little to do with the victim, and more to do with being in a social mode that enabled and rewarded their behavior.

Of all the things schools have 'zero tolerance' for - poptarts shaped like a gun, aspirin, rat-tail combs ... perhaps bullying would be an appropriate zero-tolerance target. That would go for off-campus actions as well. Not that I think we should be considering a total surveillance state for our children, but if victims come forward with evidence, it should cross a threshold for cyber-investigation by authorities.

That way the victim. and the school, aren't identified as the originators of the complaint, and the focus is where it belongs - on the actions of the perpetrators and enabling by their families.

I also think there should be a way to skip past local authorities and move up to the county or state level directly, in the cases where the locals are part of the problem.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


" I'm sure most people here would never say to someones face what they say to other posters. "

I'd like to think I'd be consistent - that when confronted with the same asshole behavior in real life as on the board, I'd respond the same way.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Interesting discussion.

Quote:

I have to believe kids are fully capable.

Why? Bc the funny thing is, I don't believe even ADULTS are fully capable.

FWIW... I was a nice kid. But when I was little I used to be something of a neighborhood pest. There were these two little boys across the street, about my age, and I and my friends would just bedvil the living bejesus out of them... nothing mean, but I could see it developing in that direction, given time. At the same time, I was harassed a bit at school. Somehow, I never made the connection between what I was doing and what was being done to me... kids are like that sometimes.

Byte, you say that kids make choices, but I think it's more primitive than that: kids have REACTIONS. They may be able to choose between one reaction and another, but it is beyond their capability... as it is beyond the capablity of most adults, most of the time... to be able to arrange for themselves the FULL panoply of possible choices, and to be able to re-arrange their emotions and reactions to pick the most suitable ones. There is no adult so self-aware that they're able to choose consciously and fully embrace that decision every single time, and if adults can't. how do we expect children to be able to with less experience and fewer resources?

Also, this thread has made me realize that I should stop bullying rappy.


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Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Also, this thread has made me realize that I should stop bullying rappy.


And if he calls you names? Assassinates the character of whole groups - one or more of which you belong to? Trolls the board? Pro-actively taunts people like he did above with his dig at 'Chrissy'? Just wondering where you draw the line between bullying and just telling someone who's being an asshole to fuck off.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:52 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Of all the things schools have 'zero tolerance' for - poptarts shaped like a gun, aspirin, rat-tail combs ... perhaps bullying would be an appropriate zero-tolerance target. That would go for off-campus actions as well. Not that I think we should be considering a total surveillance state for our children, but if victims come forward with evidence, it should cross a threshold for cyber-investigation by authorities.



A lot of schools here have 'zero tolerance' policies for bullying. Good idea, but gets misused because bullying is misrepresented and misunderstood. Bullying is consistent behaviour where one person misuses power over the other. Often the person who gets the brunt of zero tolerance is either the victim who eventually stands up to the bully, and not being as clever or manipulative, gets caught, or the policy kicks in when kids are having conflict in which both have a part to play. 'He kicked me, and I punched him' or 'he called me a retard and I belted him'.

Power in relationships is subtle, you can be the bully one day and the victim the next and vice versa. I'm not saying that kicking or punching should be tolerated, but punitive punishments, which in themselves can be or perpetrate bullying just increases the cycle.

So better education on conflict resolution for schools and families is all important and secondly, RESTORATIVE JUSTICE anyone????? Perfect for young people. Ensure the perpetrator faces the victim/victims family and gets the full brunt of the impact of their actions. Secondly, make sure the perpetrator has to take action to make some sort of amends towards the victim, including - but not limited to - financial reparation if necessary.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 10:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



I think that's where cyberbullying would be far easier to track. You can see who's initiating the exchange, and what they're posting. You can spot vastly unequal asymmetries - a 15 on one exchange should be easily visible over time, I imagine. You can spot the ringleaders, the participants, the cheerleaders, and the audience.

I'd think the answer would be to not allow these children into school. It would hit them where it hurts - in the parents' schedules and wallets. And the children should be tracked online to show they are no longer cyberbullying b4 they can be readmitted to school, be monitored for 6 months, and be occasionally randomly monitored thereafter.

And then there is the proof - a pretty unassailable e-record.

Of course not everyone responds to facts when they challenge a particular belief - it's not MY perfect angel-child! - but an impartial system of investigation, documentation, and non-violent punishment - and protection for the victim - should make the seriousness of these behaviors apparent to at least some parents, and maybe even the bullies. At least it wouldln't get swept into the gentle erasing fog of distraction and denial over time, like seems to be happening now.

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Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:14 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


yeah, cyberbullying is easier to track. Kids aren't the only ones to do this, as adults are probably doing at least as much.

The trouble is - the 'who started it' argument, which you yourself also engage in. You justify abuse if you are doing it to the abuser. And thats where you see the power dynamics shift and the bullied become the bullier, and feeling 100% justified in their actions. That, and the belief that its harsh old world out there, and its better to grow teeth else you let yourself be the prey - neither belief I subscribe to, incidentally.

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Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Wow, this is a pretty good thread, would that I had more time to invest here but it's a full moon weekend and the usual span of hassles, headaches and just plain WTF?! moments, so imma have to go for brevity.

I do think a lot of abusive behaviors are "taught", intentionally or no, by what behavior our society choses to reward, but there are subtler flavors going on usually beneath the radar of most people - the point about spoiling/entitlement issues for example, teaching a sense of better-than entitlement is IMHO abusive and encourages bad behavior, but I don't see anything wrong with letting a kid have their way or what they want when it can be done and there's no harm in it, so long as the realization of fairness is in there, which for most kids it is, hell, stronger than adults given there seems to be some kinda default baseline for it.

One of the best ways to counter it is to be a helping witness, to set an example, or sometimes in extreme cases to rub the bullies face in the dirt with pure kindness to their intended victim, which is what we did around here in the case of Kathleen Edwards (who has, sadly, since passed away) in response to her neighbors being total dicks.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/tree-town-toy-owners-arrange-shopping-spr
ee-for-dying-7-year-old-cyber-bullied-by-neighbors
/

And yeah verily maybe a wee bit hypocritical of me, cause what I do to bullies... I dunno that you'd call it bullying itself, but it *IS* a form of abuse in and of its own, quite malicious and absolutely intentional, I know it, and am well aware that sometimes rather than helping the situation both sides might use it as self-justification, but honestly... sometimes someone just really *DOES* need their ass kicked.

Which comes as a problem when said someone cannot be found to do so, cause there's far, far worse cyberstalking issues out there and occasionally they wind up in my lap, including one back in the day regarding a jerk by the name of Aaron who managed to piss me off by trying to cause the breakdown of a girl who recently miscarried, and harrassing a disabled person who couldn't "just leave" cause that community was her only social outlet.
As mentioned in this thread, some people might not say or do the same things in person, but I would, I do, and I have, in fact there's usually a sharper edge to it cause through a screen I don't have to wrestle a natural antipathy for other human beings on top of everything else.

Well as fate would have it I caught up with Aaron at a gather in Oklahoma, cornered him and we had ourselves a little talk, the details of which I won't get into, but it was pretty much either fight me to the death here and now, or you stop that shit, and don't ever think I can't FIND you.
All truth the worst thing I could have done to him at the time was NOT hurt him, not give him an excuse, cause the bastard was a junkie who had as of late started using Ecstacy on top of it and by the looks of him he wasn't long for this world anyways (which I made SURE his former victims knew, later) and so being what he was... that was worse than anything I could do to him, but the threat hanging over his head was sufficient to end the matter so that's irrelevant.

When you teach a kid might makes right, and they become an adult in a position of power of any kind, this behavior is inevitable, and when it has calcified to the point where this is their worldview - you *HAVE* to bring "might" into the situation, that isn't a maybe, and you have to bring it in sufficient quantity to then be "right" by their perspective of the situation.
Yes, most abusers are as broken as their intended victims, some even more so, but perpetuating the chain buys them no sympathy for it when that sympathy simply enables them, and if they happen to be a sociopath... well, engineering an appropriate fate for them from a deniable remove isn't out of the question neither.

Anyhows, best way to solve this crap is preventing it in the first place, via not teaching kids to do it or rewarding them for it - and also, not perpetuation some of the more harmful myths, which can be dissected here:
http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/myths.htm

Annnnd I really gotta get out there on rounds,

-F

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