REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why Halloween is depressing

POSTED BY: MAL4PREZ
UPDATED: Saturday, November 23, 2013 22:49
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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 8:18 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
DOn't hate Halloween per se, just find it a depressing symbol of how much we've been inundated with another's culture.

Yes, that's partially down to choices that Australians make.

But I think to entirely deny responsibility as Americans for the impact of your cultural inundation of the rest of the world is typical American naivism.



OK. So do you get that Halloween is not originally American? You do, right?

The commercialization was an invasion to us as much as it is to you.

And explain again how you blame America?

If you die of the flu you'll blame the schmoe next to you who also dies of the flu? Because your immune system is just as weak?

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 8:24 PM

BYTEMITE


I absolutely am doing all this stuff intentionally.

I have owned it, and now we can all have fun. Just had to realize it myself first.

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 8:31 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I absolutely am doing all this stuff intentionally.

I have owned it, and now we can all have fun. Just had to realize it myself first.



Yeah, we can have fun, if we can not go batshit on people when we pull their ponytails and they turn around and slap us for it.

Or you can keep doing that and I can keep psycho-analyzing you for it. I find it interesting. Does me no harm.

FYI, I psycho-analyze Niki as well. I don't think she's as far in the deep end as you, but I think she could de-escalate more than she does. I guess I'm judgmental in that way, that I believe you are in your heart harmless (I know you don't agree) and she might not quite see it that way.

Again, it's all very interesting.

My attention is easily drawn to shiny things. ;)

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 8:49 PM

BYTEMITE


I make no promises, batshit is a necessary part of all interactions with me. I mean, what would people say if I suddenly stopped acting like the lord of all guano? What would fill the terrible void?

It might not be cat pictures. But it's probably cat pictures.

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:09 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I make no promises, batshit is a necessary part of all interactions with me. I mean, what would people say if I suddenly stopped acting like the lord of all guano? What would fill the terrible void?

It might not be cat pictures. But it's probably cat pictures.



I like cat pictures. I've yet to meet one that did not amuse.

At the risk of being cheesy, I like peaceful Byte even more. :)


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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, it's great how everything I say now is basically bullshit! Now instead of simmering resentment on the outside and kinda liking you all on the inside, it's all simmering resentment under a thin veneer of being nice.

Haha I don't care if you respect me anymore.

In before Niki's response!

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:48 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yeah, it's great how everything I say now is basically bullshit! Now instead of simmering resentment on the outside and kinda liking you all on the inside, it's all simmering resentment under a thin veneer of being nice.

Haha I don't care if you respect me anymore.

In before Niki's response!



It's all about you darlin'.


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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


OK. So do you get that Halloween is not originally American? You do, right?

The commercialization was an invasion to us as much as it is to you.

And explain again how you blame America?

If you die of the flu you'll blame the schmoe next to you who also dies of the flu? Because your immune system is just as weak?
>



Not sure what the flue reference was about?

I do get the origins of Halloweem, but the way it is celebrated BY AMERICANS, ie trick or treating is what has been imported into this country via tv. It has no cultural relevance to us, given either its pagan or christian origins, as its Spring here and we're a secular culture. If it was just about Halloween, I'd have no problems, but it clearly isn't. Halloween is just one example.

I've explained my stance on the invasion of American culture throughout the world. Not sure what else you need from me. Do you not know about it? Do you deny it? Do you not understand the concepts of economic and cultural imperialism?

I think perhaps its hard for you to imagine or empathise, given that you live in the domininant world power, but this is one of the reasons people get snippy with Americans. Not only are you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally, but you've got that kind of dopey 'we're just trying to be the good guys' naivity going on. Or worse, a refusal to see it as your responsibility. It's just individual choice, right? I think you are smarter than that. That's the kind of argument I expect from Rap or Jongs or Geezer.

So am I saying we're squeaky clean? No, we do our own bad stuff and our gormless acceptance of the more vulgar and harmful elements of American culture is partially our responsibility (see above for how hard competing in a huge market when your're a small player)


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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:15 PM

BYTEMITE



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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:17 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

You want to know who really is a winner at all this? Barbados. The Bajan people turned up their noses at good ol' McDs. And how about Jamaica? Same deal there. You want to honor a culture that rejected imperial capitalism, something the rest of us failed at, look to the Caribbean.




There have been a number of attempts at rejecting MAcDonalds in Australia.Byron Bay did it successfully. Tecoma protestors have faced legal action from MacDonalds. In order to object, you have to put your income, your home and your livlihood on the line. A big ask for most people whose preference is that junk food multinationals were not so ubiquitous.

I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't all such obesity inducing crap made out of minced cow arseholes and pig fat.

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Never let it be said I'm not an equal opportunity offender.


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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:



Ha, pretty accurate that. I think I would probably know less than that.

Did you know its not uncommon for Australians in America to be told how well they speak English (it being our second language and all)

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:



Ha, pretty accurate that. I think I would probably know less than that.

Did you know its not uncommon for Australians in America to be told how well they speak English (it being our second language and all)



That's cool, I didn't know that.

Say something in wallaby.

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:44 PM

OONJERAH



The Ugly American is a 1958 political novel by Eugene Burdick
and William Ledere.
Also a 1963 movie starring Marlon Brando. (that long ago?!)

I guess I must have read the book. All I recall was a scene where
a young soldier, a scout?, returns to base with one eye hanging out
down on his cheek to report that his companions were now VC
captives or dead.

I was even more politically unaware then than now, so I didn't
get the message or recall the book. Just the title. I did read a
magazine article or two at the time, the '60's. They were straight
forward about: American tourists are unpopular around the world;
because they are ignorant, arrogant and rude.

Back when Great Britain's Empire shone in the sun, they had some
class & decorum about it. ... They didn't pretend to be fair as they
trod the serfs under their heel; they just pretended to be right!


======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:05 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think perhaps its hard for you to imagine or empathise, given that you live in the domininant world power, but this is one of the reasons people get snippy with Americans. Not only are you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally, but you've got that kind of dopey 'we're just trying to be the good guys' naivity going on. Or worse, a refusal to see it as your responsibility. It's just individual choice, right? I think you are smarter than that. That's the kind of argument I expect from Rap or Jongs or Geezer.



Yeeeaahhh. So many problems with this.

I know it's comforting to define some "other" as the enemy, as you are doing with America, so you know exactly who and where the bad guys are. But the real world doesn't work that way. The badness is much more complex than that. The Evil is something that attacked us before it attacked you, which is my flu reference. I feel like I'm lying in a hospital bed fighting off a nasty bug and you're in the next bed over blaming me that you're sick too.

Commercialization and the military industrial complex is a kind of mental sickness that people all over the world have fallen or are falling prey to. The "bugs," the actual Evil People, are a small group who aren't exclusively American. They are all over. One of the worst came from your land: the vile Murdoch.

You seem to be claiming that Americans are all evil for giving into the influence of these assholes, yet the Aussies who make the same bad decisions are helpless victims. Those Down Under are somehow not really responsible for the change they have wrought on their own culture, such as "letting" big bad Halloween take over. Individual responsibility for Aussies much?

You also claim credit for the few Aussies who put up a fight, as if the good decisions of a few automatically excuses everyone on the continent. At the same time you deny the existence of any such people in the US, and paint us as all McDonald's eating warmongers.

It's quite hypocritical of you.

I know you are aware that there are shades of grey. You seem not to understand that this applies to America as much as to Australia. There are stupid assholes and heroic fighters in both places. If you want to get anywhere in the fight, you'd do best to recognize this. See the true enemy, see the true allies.

Or stay comfortably and helplessly in your blame America mode if it makes you feel better. In any case, keep your blame and your broad paintbrush off me. I won't accept them.


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Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:23 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:


Happy?? You say stuff like that and it's obvious you want to paint every American with the same brush, something I'd expect from Whozit. You confuse governments and corporations for the people of a country, which is kind of International understanding 101. One of the major reasons Obama got in the WH was to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, which we're actually doing, painfully and too slowly, but it is happening. The populace voiced their majority opinion recently against bombing Syria, and overwhelming support for new gun registration and requirements - which our f*cking nutters in Congress decided to ignore. But, yanno, nevermind all that, enjoy your hate, obvious to me at least that's what this is about for you.



Gee, G, I don't think you've been around that long and you certainly don't know me if you think I'm filled with hate. Kind of harsh statements when what I've said is pretty mild. (Except for my comments to Byte.)

Yeah, I get that a lot of Americans feel strongly, especially now, about military intervention. Vastly different to 10 years ago on the Internet I can tell you.

But its been interesting seeing the responses right here to my comments about feeling somewhat swamped about the amount of American culture I get to endure on a day to day basis. Wow, the incredibly, overwhelming hostile reaction because I DONT LIKE HALLOWEEN. Everything from being accused of being a someone who hates others enjoying themselves, to having a victim mentality to now being filled with hate.

Interesting how sharp the defensive reactions have been.

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:29 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Wow, the incredibly, overwhelming hostile reaction because I DONT LIKE HALLOWEEN.



You've said a lot more than that yo.

Check again as to which statements of yours people are reacting to.

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:48 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


Yeeeaahhh. So many problems with this.



I think the problem is that you are not reading my posts. Just getting defensive and going on the attack.

I think far from me taking any responsibibility on behalf of my country, which I have, its YOU who denies any responsibility on behalf of your own.


Quote:


I know it's comforting to define some "other" as the enemy, as you are doing with America, so you know exactly who and where the bad guys are. But the real world doesn't work that way. The badness is much more complex than that. The Evil is something that attacked us before it attacked you, which is my flu reference. I feel like I'm lying in a hospital bed fighting off a nasty bug and you're in the next bed over blaming me that you're sick too.



Again, tiring that you dont read my posts and then I have to post the same things over again. so I'll repost them for you

"So is it all bad and evil. Of course not. I'm reminded of the Life of Brian when a group of Judaians sit around and bitch about the Romans.
And that is what imperialism is, whether its England bringing railways and effective bureacracies to India, or the Romans and the aquaducts and decent roads. And yes, thank you America for Firefly and Joss Whedon and a lot of stuff I enjoy. But it still pisses the locals off. "

I posted a Monty Python clip from Life of Brian where the Judaians complain about the Romans but keep bringing up all the good things they have given to the culture.

So please don't accuse me of painting the US as the Big Evil when I haven't


Quote:

Commercialization and the military industrial complex is a kind of mental sickness that people all over the world have fallen or are falling prey to. The "bugs," the actual Evil People, are a small group who aren't exclusively American. They are all over. One of the worst came from your land: the vile Murdoch.


Yep true enough. But currently the US is the leader in the world in this, and therefore the dominant culture. Again, you're the one who brings up evil not me. Wait a few years and it'll be the Chinese and we'll all be popping off to the the chinese opera and listening to something that sounds like cats being strangled. You might even be nostalgically musing to your grandkids about when Thanksgiving was a bigger holiday than Chinese New Year.

Quote:

You seem to be claiming that Americans are all evil for giving into the influence of these assholes, yet the Aussies who make the same bad decisions are helpless victims. Those Down Under are somehow not really responsible for the change they have wrought on their own culture, such as "letting" big bad Halloween take over. Individual responsibility for Aussies much?


Yeah. Again. It would be nice if you read my posts. Or read more than the first line. Never said Americans evil. I think dopey and naive were the words I actually have used. Never not taken responsibility. This conversation really is tedious, isnt it?


Quote:

You also claim credit for the few Aussies who put up a fight, as if the good decisions of a few automatically excuses everyone on the continent. At the same time you deny the existence of any such people in the US, and paint us as all McDonald's eating warmongers.


I was trying to point out how hard it is to actually prevent the cultural creep from happening. It's small groups of individuals up against powerful multinationals, or very strong world market forces. It also feels quite benign for a lot of people, its kind of 'who cares, its just a hamburger joint'. You have to be quite fanatical to put your financial security on the line, and yet some people do.

It's not just an Aussie thing, btw. If anything, we've probably embraced American culture more than many countries. We're a young hotchpotch of cultures anyway, but its worldwide. Ask any French person, and they'll have the same concerns. They work damn hard at preserving their culture from American influences, but you still see Macdonalds in the heart of Paris.

Quote:

It's quite hypocritical of you.
I dont see how.

Quote:

I know you are aware that there are shades of grey. You seem not to understand that this applies to America as much as to Australia. There are stupid assholes and heroic fighters in both places. If you want to get anywhere in the fight, you'd do best to recognize this. See the true enemy, see the true allies.

Or stay comfortably and helplessly in your blame America mode if it makes you feel better. In any case, keep your blame and your broad paintbrush off me. I won't accept them.



Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment. It's you whose got your panties in a twist. Why? Because I had a few posts lamenting how I feel smamped by the dominant world culture at times like Halloween. How outrageously anti American of me. How very dare I?





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Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:53 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


You've said a lot more than that yo.

Check again as to which statements of yours people are reacting to.



Okay, please tell me which ones.

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:56 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:



Ha, pretty accurate that. I think I would probably know less than that.

Did you know its not uncommon for Australians in America to be told how well they speak English (it being our second language and all)



That's cool, I didn't know that.

Say something in wallaby.



Hehe.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 3:18 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

You've said a lot more than that yo.

Check again as to which statements of yours people are reacting to.



Okay, please tell me which ones.



Let's start with:

"Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment."

To which I have a strong urge to tell you to go fuck yourself. So really, go fuck yourself. This is such an incredibly bitchy thing for you to say and I'm now frightening close to losing all respect for you.

I know, you can't possibly be concerned over losing the respect of someone

"Dopey and Naive"

who has

"Never taken responsibility"

which you know about me... how? Just like you know about me that...

"you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally"

And let's not forget that you got what was a fun thread to turn nasty with the accusation:

"Revel in your cultural imperialism by all means. Empathy seems to be pretty difficult for you to manage."

Which wasn't said to me personally but certainly all your later posts show that you feel this way toward me, and that goes faaaaaar past a simple: "I don't like Halloween." So don't even think anyone's going to buy that victim card.

As to reading posts, you can't seem to grok that: "local business cant compete with huge multinationals like KFC, MacDonalds, Cripsy Creme" is not a hardship that you poor Aussies are going through alone. You can't get off your victim pedestal long enough to know that this shit has affected me, a dopey power-happy culturally imperialistic empathy-less American, just as negatively as it has you. So where's your empathy for me, you biatchy hypocrite?

Yes, you've pissed me off. Not because I'm defending America, but because you're being an asshole and assuming shit about me that isn't true, and clearly you've been poking your fingers in this thread from the beginning hoping to do nothing more than piss people off about this pet peeve. You have. Good job.

I mean Cheese and Rice, you actually said to me: "Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment"

And you claim that I am the one not reading posts?

Again: go fuck yourself.

I'm not leaving the thread, because it's mine, but I'm leaving you. You've made it clear that you're a whiney close-minded asshole and I have no interest in your victim playing.

And you'll probably still think I'm pissed over a little America bashing. Which shows two things: you don't know me *at all*, and you'll never get what I've been trying to explain to you.


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Thursday, November 7, 2013 3:20 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Magons, as I wrote, I understand and empathize a LOT with what you've been complaining about, but even I am beginning to feel like you're tarring us all with a big brush.

The thing about being pro-war in particular kinda got to me. I'm 65; as long as I've been alive, most Americans have been against going to war...remember Vietnam?? Yeah, after we were hit massively on 9/11, people reacted viscerally, that might be rather easy to understand, and our damned military-industrial complex and the Bush Administration made the most out of it and ran with it. But that was a reaction, first, and second, it's governments and militaries who always want to go to war, they aren't "The People". Before you say "but you elected them", give a minute's thought to how military-industrial complexes WORK and how much influence they have over politicians, not to mention that, once elected, politicians often show a warlike aspect they don't mention when campaigning to be elected.

We really are an extremely diverse bunch, and the power and wealth isn't even SLIGHTLY uniformly spread out. Each state here can be vastly different from another mentally, and some of them are on opposite POLES even. We are 314 MILLION people with cultures who have evolved in completely different ways; Australia has a population of 23 million, and tho' yes, you're diverse, not nearly as diverse as we are.

Some of what you've written I agree with; some of what you don't like, we are victims of as well. While, as I said, I think it would be hard for a lot of Americans to see things with an outside perspective and fully understand what you're saying, at the same time I think you are viewing us through your own perspective, and making some false assumptions.

Just my two cents' worth. Mostly I guess I'm trying to say that what the world sees as "American influence" is actually the influence of a small group of powerful, wealthy people and doesn't reflect America or Americans as much as you think it does.


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Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:56 PM

OONJERAH


America was Beautiful!

Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex.
"The potential for the disasterous rise of misplaced power exists."



Eisenhower Farewell Address - full




Ike warned us. Many people heard the warning, understood, protested.
I am not sure if we were ever a democracy. But by the time President
Eisenhower made this speech, I am pretty sure the average voter had
lost all influence.

As to the disparaties of wealth & power that we have now, I think of
it as returning to feudalism. Worldwide. ... Now what?


===========================
"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 9:46 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Ike warned us. Many people heard the warning, understood, protested.
I am not sure if we were ever a democracy. But by the time President
Eisenhower made this speech, I am pretty sure the average voter had
lost all influence.

As to the disparaties of wealth & power that we have now, I think of
it as returning to feudalism. Worldwide. ... Now what?



This may be weird, but every time I watch the opening to the Watchmen I cry when JFK gets shot. I'm not much into the rest of the movie, but the first time I watched that opening scene it just hit me what a turning point that was. I was born a decade later so I don't really know, but it seems we were on a good path then, and that bullet changed the course. It brought in Nixon and young Cheney and all that has followed them: the rise of Money as earned by the 1% as God.

It makes me terribly sad to think of what might of happened if the vision of JFK had led us through the 20th century, rather than that damned corporate commercialized military industrial system of designed obsolescence.

I am just old enough to remember what America was like when local business had not yet been destroyed by the chains. I know exactly what has been lost. I resent it, and I resent the fools who let it happen. But I also pick up stuff at Home Depot now and then, because there is no other option. I resent this most of all.

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:08 PM

MAL4PREZ


If anyone watches The Crazy Ones (Go SMG!) episode 7 ironically started with a USA/Aussie encounter that's really funny. From both sides, I think.

I'm enjoying this show. Gods help me, I fall for Robin Williams every time, since the days of Mork. (I had real bona fide Mork and Mindy moon boots until they fell apart 3 years ago.) He's so damned funny.


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Friday, November 8, 2013 4:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Robin Williams has a series?! Where do I find it?? No, cancel that, I'll look it up...

Sorry, I don't watch TV per se anymore; I watch old stuff (mostly British series) on Roku and occasionally Daily Show or Colbert on On Demand. I can't remember the last time I saw a commercial or watched "live" TV, so I've obviously missed some stuff.

I'm a hard-core Williams fan. He used to show up at comedy clubs unannounced and do a set when he lived here in the City, and I've been in awe of his brain since pre-Mork and Mindy. I never forgot one of his lines from ages ago, that "Blaming Ronald Reagan for the state of the country is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the state of your hamburger". Worked for Bush, too... ;o)

And yeah, Oonj, I agree. I "met" Ike--he flew into Kabul once (of course I was only 10 or so, no memory of it)...the only thing I remember is that they had to make find a way to pave the "runway" well enough that his big plane could land on it. But I admired the man when I grew up and looked into him, and he had more than that one warning which has since come true.

Mal4, I'm sorry, but I disagree. We've painted Kennedy with the Hero Brush, and he wasn't all that great in reality. I think we just were fairly naïve as a country back then, and information wasn't as readily available as it is now--and as for when things started changing for the worse, for me it was Nixon when we started getting cynical and REALLY mistrusting the government...for good reason, of course. But if you read any book that makes a serious effort to be objective, I think you'll get a wake-up call about Kennedy. JMHO.

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Friday, November 8, 2013 6:54 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Magons, as I wrote, I understand and empathize a LOT with what you've been complaining about, but even I am beginning to feel like you're tarring us all with a big brush.

The thing about being pro-war in particular kinda got to me. I'm 65; as long as I've been alive, most Americans have been against going to war...remember Vietnam?? Yeah, after we were hit massively on 9/11, people reacted viscerally, that might be rather easy to understand, and our damned military-industrial complex and the Bush Administration made the most out of it and ran with it. But that was a reaction, first, and second, it's governments and militaries who always want to go to war, they aren't "The People". Before you say "but you elected them", give a minute's thought to how military-industrial complexes WORK and how much influence they have over politicians, not to mention that, once elected, politicians often show a warlike aspect they don't mention when campaigning to be elected.

We really are an extremely diverse bunch, and the power and wealth isn't even SLIGHTLY uniformly spread out. Each state here can be vastly different from another mentally, and some of them are on opposite POLES even. We are 314 MILLION people with cultures who have evolved in completely different ways; Australia has a population of 23 million, and tho' yes, you're diverse, not nearly as diverse as we are.

Some of what you've written I agree with; some of what you don't like, we are victims of as well. While, as I said, I think it would be hard for a lot of Americans to see things with an outside perspective and fully understand what you're saying, at the same time I think you are viewing us through your own perspective, and making some false assumptions.

Just my two cents' worth. Mostly I guess I'm trying to say that what the world sees as "American influence" is actually the influence of a small group of powerful, wealthy people and doesn't reflect America or Americans as much as you think it does.





I'm talking about America the powerful nation, not the individuals. I get that a lot of Americans oppose war and hate multinationals and fast food.

I'm sorry I've come across as offensive, but you see, I'm genuinely shocked at the hostility that I've encountered because of my feelings around Halloween. And I'm genuinely shocked that the notion of America as a cultural and econically superpower in the world and the impact of that on other countries seems to be hard for a few posters to comprehend and/or take responsibility for. I'm getting that perhaps what would be common conversations for Australians, English, French et al on these sort of issues, may not be common for Americans>? I dunno. People seemed quite taken aback by my comments and I got quickly dismissed as being an American hater.

I make no apologies for my comments on America being a powerful cultural, economic and military force in the world. That is a reality and that impacts on other nations. Doesn't mean the impact is all bad, as I have already acknowledged, nor that other nations are not doing the same thing, just not as powerfully yet. I think in another 50 years the influence of the US will have signifantly waned, and CHina and India will be more powerful. And I'm not at all sure that this will be a good thing.




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Friday, November 8, 2013 8:23 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


"Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment."

To which I have a strong urge to tell you to go fuck yourself. So really, go fuck yourself. This is such an incredibly bitchy thing for you to say and I'm now frightening close to losing all respect for you.



Oh come on, you've been pretty hostile towards me. You've been using strawmanning my arguments constantly. "You don't like Halloween because you think America is EVIL" statements. Really? The only thing I can think of to cause this reaction is because I've wounded your national pride. THAT's what that statement was about about. Stop getting defensive because you think someone is criticising your country, and actually try to understand the intent.


Quote:

"Dopey and Naive"
Not evil though, huh? And yeah, dopey and naive kind of seeped into the national image thanks to Ronnie Raygun and Dubya. I'll never forget his wide eyed disbelief after 9/11. "These folks really hate us?"



Quote:

"Never taken responsibility"


which you know about me... how? Just like you know about me that...



Which is EXACTLY what you've accused me of during this thread. So I thought you were referring to this argument, not me personally. Wonder why you thought I was doing anything else to you.



Quote:

"you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally"

And let's not forget that you got what was a fun thread to turn nasty with the accusation:



Well again, not you personally??? Really, did you not know that I was talking about the 'you' as in 'America;? Can you really deny thatAmerica does wield power militarily, economically and culturally?

Quote:

"Revel in your cultural imperialism by all means. Empathy seems to be pretty difficult for you to manage."

Which wasn't said to me personally but certainly all your later posts show that you feel this way toward me, and that goes faaaaaar past a simple: "I don't like Halloween." So don't even think anyone's going to buy that victim card.



yeah that was a bitchy snipe at Byte. I was totally pissed off at her for her 'suck it up, you grinch' attitude. Just like your pissed off with me now. I could have worded it better, but perhaps the sentiments are there underneath.

Quote:

As to reading posts, you can't seem to grok that: "local business cant compete with huge multinationals like KFC, MacDonalds, Cripsy Creme" is not a hardship that you poor Aussies are going through alone. You can't get off your victim pedestal long enough to know that this shit has affected me, a dopey power-happy culturally imperialistic empathy-less American, just as negatively as it has you. So where's your empathy for me, you biatchy hypocrite?


I have probably said 'it's not just about Australia' a number of times now for you to realise that. I've not even said that i find it hardship inducing to have so much of things American outside my very door, but that it causes me some sorrow to feel culturally swamped by it. I get that you may not like multinationals, but if I apply the same logic that has been applied to me, "tough shit. get off your arse and do something about it." Not a very pleasant way to respond either is it? And yes, I do think you've demonstrated not just a startling lack of empathy, but you've been incredibly attacking towards me.
Quote:

Yes, you've pissed me off. Not because I'm defending America, but because you're being an asshole and assuming shit about me that isn't true, and clearly you've been poking your fingers in this thread from the beginning hoping to do nothing more than piss people off about this pet peeve. You have. Good job.


I think somewhere back you wrote about projection? I've never assumed anything about you. I've hardly referred to you at all. I'm the one whose been personally attacked on this thread. I been called an America hater, a victim, a killjoy, a whiney biatch, a close minded arsehole. And much of that by you.




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Friday, November 8, 2013 8:28 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:


I think it's hopeless trying to convince you of these things though. We had a similar dead end conversation concerning Zero Dark 30. You didn't think the movie went far enough, wasn't critical enough of US military, and I thought it actually did and did it very well. So yeah, we've had similar discussions.



Was that you? did you have another name then? Yeah, I don't like zero dark thirty and thought it was an offensive movie. I think you probably accused me of America hating then too, didn't you?

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Friday, November 8, 2013 8:48 PM

MAL4PREZ


Bullshit Magons. As I thoroughly explained above, you said a helluva lot more than an innocent: "I don't like Halloween". If you actually bothered to pull your head out and read posts responding to you, you would have noticed that a lot of people agreed to a large degree. My first responses to you were to acknowledge the many annoying aspects of it.

But that's not what you were after. You continued to bitch and moan and get personal and insulting, and I only cut you down after that singing the anthem bullshit you pulled.

I challenge you to find any direct quote from my posts that was anywhere close to blind patriotism. Go now and look.

Unless you're too busy fucking yourself. Which you should be.


*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Friday, November 8, 2013 8:59 PM

MAL4PREZ


Moving past the "all-Americans-are-0-empathy-imperialists" biatch who's trying to play innocent... "Who me? What'd I say?"

Oh yeah Magon's annoyed me. Big time.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Robin Williams has a series?! Where do I find it?? No, cancel that, I'll look it up...

You really should. It seems that someone built a show and cast around playing off of Robin Williams at his silliest, resulting in many good moments. They show outtakes at the end of each episode. SMG makes a Buffy reference in one of the best of them.

I don't watch live TV either. All internet for me. I am blessedly free of commercials! I'm always confused when I watch TV at a friends house and they actually sit and watch the commercials. When I had TV, it was all about mute or channel changes.

So you've seen Williams live? Must have been awesome! Well, I think as a human in person he'd freak me out, with his crazy energy and his brain going all over the place. I think you have to be half genius and half insane to be that funny. My lord he's good though.


Quote:

Mal4, I'm sorry, but I disagree. We've painted Kennedy with the Hero Brush, and he wasn't all that great in reality.
I'm glad you say that, and I'm ready to believe you. It's human nature to paint the past too rosy.

Thing is, it's not that I believe Kennedy to be a superhero as much as I see the forces of Dick Cheney & Co to be a true evil. I came to awareness around 1980 and life has changed so much since then, in ways that are squarely on the rise of corporations and big money and big military. I can't help but think that if the liberals had won out a few decades before and kept the conservatives away from power, the pockets of local culture I knew in 1980 would not have been swallowed by the almighty strip-mall.


*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Saturday, November 9, 2013 12:53 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Bullshit Magons. As I thoroughly explained above, you said a helluva lot more than an innocent: "I don't like Halloween". If you actually bothered to pull your head out and read posts responding to you, you would have noticed that a lot of people agreed to a large degree. My first responses to you were to acknowledge the many annoying aspects of it.

But that's not what you were after. You continued to bitch and moan and get personal and insulting, and I only cut you down after that singing the anthem bullshit you pulled.

I challenge you to find any direct quote from my posts that was anywhere close to blind patriotism. Go now and look.

Unless you're too busy fucking yourself. Which you should be.



Geez, I'm glad I never said anything critical about July 4th, you'd come after me with a bazooka.

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Saturday, November 9, 2013 9:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mal4, no, I was never lucky enough to catch Williams at the comedy clubs, I don't frequent them (in fact, we rarely ever "went out" to anything). I have friends who did--he always did it unannounced, so you never knew where he would show up. I've seen all his stand-up live performances numerous times, and wish I'd ever had the chance to see him live! He had a house in the City back then (I know where), just as George Lucas used to live down the street from us...him I DID see, once at the market, but none of any of the other famous folk who live around here.

The concept of letting Robin "riff" and then using what they want is the best way to work with him and what many have done...that's how they got his character in "Aladdin", among others (his addiction to coke back then didn't help, and it's pretty predictable that would be the drug he'd get hooked on!). His brain just moves so damned fast, and he pulls stuff out of thin air as well as bringing up stuff he's used before, that you just never know what's going to come out. Makes him hard to work with, among other things. ;o)

I think I really fell for him when he WAS able to control himself and did such a fantastic job in Good Will Hunting, it showed he could actually ACT, not just riff insanely. Since then he's solidified that respect over and over, especially with Awakenings. He's never been everybody's cup of tea, certainly, but always been mine.

I certainly agree with you about Kennedy, and many more, in comparison to Reagan and especially the Bush/Cheney Evil Empire...and you may be quite right, that if the "Moral Majority", "Christian Right" and Cheney/Rove/etc., hadn't come to power, things would be QUITE different. I just speak up when I hear the Kennedy As Hero thing; in my opinion, tho' quite a bit more dangerous in his way, Bobby would have been a better President. It was HIS death that totally destroyed me.

As to Magons, I think the heat has ramped up to the point where nobody's hearing her, which is sad because I admire all of you greatly. As I said in my very first post, I don't think most Americans can actually hear what she's trying to say, but I also think there are some misconceptions on her part. I'm just sad it's gotten so heated.


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Saturday, November 9, 2013 9:45 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Magons, I think the heat has ramped up to the point where nobody's hearing her, which is sad because I admire all of you greatly. As I said in my very first post, I don't think most Americans can actually hear what she's trying to say, but I also think there are some misconceptions on her part. I'm just sad it's gotten so heated.



Oh, we've heard her quite well. The fact that she's still going with this: "Boo-hoo all I did was say I don't like a Holiday" thing, even after I gave her direct quotes of what I'm reacting to, proves that she's not hearing me. She's not even trying.

If she was, she would have noted right away that we have common ground. I tried to point out that we are really allies here, but she came right back and painted me as a 0-empathy imperialist, etc. She doesn't want common ground. All she wants is to preserve her victim hood boo-hoo and not hear anything different. To which I continue to have no response but: go fuck herself.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Saturday, November 9, 2013 1:26 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, I read through the entire thread. My personal conclusion is that people aren't hearing each other, tempers have flared and there's quite enough unpleasantness on both "sides" to suffice. After reading it all, I think I know where things went wrong, so if anyone's interested, here's my analysis:

MOST people were actually listening to one another, and understanding, when this all started. Wish nailed some of what I feel, and some of what Magons has been trying to say, in my opinion:
Quote:

I firmly believe most Americans have NO CLUE how we are affecting the rest of the world.

I'm sure a lot of Christians would deny that they want the rest of the world doing their holidays, but I know that a lot would secretly revel in the "superiority" of it all. It makes me kind of sick that Americans ( and lets face it- companies EVERYWHERE LOOOOVE how commercialized we are) are soo inadvertently messing with others cultures…


Personally, I think there are a lot of so-called "Christians" out there who already DO revel in the superiority of Christianity and would love for it to be universal, but that's another discussion.

The "revel in your cultural imperialism" was uncalled for, but given the personalities involved, not surprising. To say one ASSUMES "Magons is looking for people to acknowledge her cultural superiority" is about as asinine as Magons' statement, and every bit as much of a snark.

I didn't see anywhere Magons "(blamed) the excesses of her own people on America". I understand how what she wrote can be taken that way, but a number of us understood that's not what she was doing, Oonj got it exactly:

"People having fun is not the objection.
People adopting US customs in lieu of their own is felt as a loss.
Very upsetting when one loves-respects her own culture.
My refusal to hear-understand the hurt was like an insult."

And so did G:

"Her countrymen are proving to be just as weak and susceptible to million dollar marketing as ours have been. That has to be hard to take given country pride and obvious dislike for most things US."

I'm not sure Magons has ever shown "obvious dislike for most things US", but that's just my opinion.

Moving into psychoanalysis with "It's disingenuous at best. Denial and transference of guilt more likely" would be sufficient to make anyone's hackles go up, if they weren't already.

I then misunderstood something, which gave Byte the opportunity to take a swipe at Oonj and ream me (which still makes me laugh when Mal4 called it "only a little understandable bristling"), and the conversation got threadjacked into Byte going after me (despite my admitting I'd misunderstood and explaining why). During which time, I've refrained from mentioning until now, Byte TWICE wrote bald-faced lies about me, both of which she edited out when I called her on them. I'll probably get reamed for mentioning that, but it made an impression.

Skipping past all the ensuing bullshit, Magons came back and tried to explain:
Quote:

Inundation, some would say indoctrination with another's culture....24 hours of tv and films dominated by another culture along with sophisticated advertising changes the way people think. It changes their brains!!! That's what we have here. So produce our own, you say. Yeah we do. But market forces means that local productions can't compete with American imports. So there we have it. Local business cant compete with huge multinationals like KFC, MacDonalds, Cripsy Creme. pleased to say that Gloria Jean was a fizzer.



She's absolutely right. I repeat, again, it's not "Americans", but a small minority of moneyed, powerful individuals driving it, and given how much MOST of us here hate it, putting it on us is unfair. But the fact remains that it's virtually impossible to "fight against" by any country. Murdoch learned the lesson beautifully, and WE resent HIS influence over US as much as what Magons has been trying to explain. If you think of it that way, and how the Murdoch empire has and is quite literally indoctrinated/indoctrinating OUR more "manipulatable" citizens/voters, it might help a bit in understanding.

Magons went on to write quite clearly "So is it all bad and evil. Of course not." She admitted her "fuck you" was due to things other than just the discussion, and clearly wrote that she'd had a "melt down". Byte got that, and freely admitted she revels in pissing other people off "for no reason", but nobody else here seems to have read what Magons wrote, but raher continues to be stuck on what they THINK she's been saying.

What she's actually been saying is pretty clear. However, the listening stopped and anger really got started when she wrote this:
Quote:

I think perhaps its hard for you to imagine or empathise, given that you live in the domininant world power, but this is one of the reasons people get snippy with Americans. Not only are you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally, but you've got that kind of dopey 'we're just trying to be the good guys' naivity going on. Or worse, a refusal to see it as your responsibility. It's just individual choice, right? I think you are smarter than that. That's the kind of argument I expect from Rap or Jongs or Geezer.


That, to me, is the problem. The use of "you" makes it personal, and it's damned hard NOT to feel like it's personal when written that way. There ARE enough Americans around who are "powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally"--we've got 'em right here--so for me as well, the generalized "you" was offensive. The "a refusal to see it as your responsibility" offended me, too, and might well have ALL of us who hate what our government/military gets up to and do everything we can to affect it, but seem to have no affect at all.

So that paragraph is definitely problematic; it goes against the understanding Magons showed elsewhere and gives rise to claims that she hates America/Americans. I don't know if she realizes that there have been MANY attempts at rejecting MAcDonalds and those like them here in the States, as well--hell, we just went through trying to keep Target out of San Rafael, for a couple of years, to no avail, and it was damned painful. She's right, but I don't know if she's aware that "In order to object, you have to put your income, your home and your livlihood on the line" HERE, too, and people do, are and have.

You can see the reaction it resulted in clearly from G's response…someone who is generally a very mellow poster:
Quote:

Happy?? You say stuff like that and it's obvious you want to paint every American with the same brush, something I'd expect from Whozit. You confuse governments and corporations for the people of a country, which is kind of International understanding 101. One of the major reasons Obama got in the WH was to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, which we're actually doing, painfully and too slowly, but it is happening. The populace voiced their majority opinion recently against bombing Syria, and overwhelming support for new gun registration and requirements - which our f*cking nutters in Congress decided to ignore. But, yanno, nevermind all that, enjoy your hate, obvious to me at least that's what this is about for you.


Mal4's response was much more reasonable, and pointed out some of the same things I have and G did, but the raised hackles are pretty clear. I'm glad she added "seem" to "You seem to be claiming that Americans are all evil for giving into the influence of these assholes, yet the Aussies who make the same bad decisions are helpless victims", because Magons didn't do that at all…I maintain it's that paragraph with all the dreaded "you"s in it that racheted everything up, and it hasn't slowed down ever since.

I don't think Magons at all DENIED "the existence of people who are fighting against the same multinationals in the US." I don't know if she's even aware that it happens here at least as much as it does around the world, and she most certainly never did "paint us as all McDonald's eating warmongers."

I'm extrapolating, given G's and Mal4's reactions and my own, to that being where some minds turned off, and settled on the "hates America" meme.

Onward on a side note: Oonj brought up The Ugly American, and wrote "I did read a magazine article or two at the time, the '60's. They were straight forward about: American tourists are unpopular around the world; because they are ignorant, arrogant and rude." It's absolutely true; when we lived in Afghanistan, even as a child I was appalled at the way visitors from America behaved. However, Oonj, the Brits DIDN'T have "class & decorum about it" when theirs was the dominant Empire, they were just as bad, if not WORSE. The difference is they had no interest in being "loved"--there's that American naiveté Magons mentioned, which I saw first hand many times. The British that I knew and read about simply assumed they were superior and behaved that way; the Americans I saw and read about were ignorant and almost invariably UNINTENTIONALLY rude, they just didn't get it. But both cultures overwhelmed parts of the rest of the world…the difference is that ours, a more modern empire, has done so in a world which is much more economically intertwined. Our country has had a MUCH bigger cultural and economic impact globally than the British Empire ever dreamed of.

Magons was very clear with "So am I saying we're squeaky clean? No, we do our own bad stuff and our gormless acceptance of the more vulgar and harmful elements of American culture is partially our responsibility."

But "the incredibly, overwhelming hostile reaction because I DONT LIKE HALLOWEEN" isn't accurate. The thread went way beyond Halloween, obviously; in my opinion, if it weren't for that one paragraph with all the generalized "you"s, this discussion might not have gone so off the rails. We're actually not in that much disagreement, if you read through it. But once things got going, nobody was "listening" to anyone else.

"I think far from me taking any responsibibility on behalf of my country, which I have, its YOU who denies any responsibility on behalf of your own." That's totally wrong; a quick re-read of just this analysis shows how many of us quickly acknowledged America's influence and our negativity about it, but things had gotten to "black-and-white country", so communication had ceased and all that had been forgotten.

Whether defensiveness, frustration, or something else going on outside FFF, "Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment. It's you whose got your panties in a twist" goes beyond the pale, in my opinion. Communication had definitely ceased at this point, and I'm not going any further because beyond this point, I think things got repetitious and people only remembered SOME of what others wrote, and everyone's talking at cross-purposes.

I commend you for trying to work it out, Magons, maybe if you bother to read this (I know it's long and I don't expect anyone to, I just like trying to figure out stuff like this, even when it doesn't happen to me, and especially when I see several people I respect go at each other), you can see where it went off the rails.

I'm going to offer one last thing: "I'm sorry I've come across as offensive, but you see, I'm genuinely shocked at the hostility that I've encountered because of my feelings around Halloween." It wasn't your feelings about Halloween, things didn't really go off the rails until the "you"s.

Maybe if you extrapolate to how you feel about the commercialization and inundation, then think about how it must feel to have it not just happening to you (on a much bigger scale than you experience, trust me!), but have it feel like someone is blaming you personally for it when you've fought it and hate it every bit as much as they do, and know the world has a view of you that ISN'T you at all, and to hear that view fairly frequently, you might get an inkling of how all this happened. The hostility is definitely not about Halloween.

Speaking JUST for myself: I don't take personal responsibility for the wrongs my country does, I try to do what I can to fight them, and I do have a lot of pride in some of the good things America has accomplished, but I still DO feel incredibly frustrated and yes, sometimes even illogically guilty, for my inability to change any of the bad stuff. So when it feels like it comes at me PERSONALLY, all those feelings hit home.


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Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:02 PM

MAL4PREZ


Niki - your post makes me think of that Sherlock Holmes story where Sherlock reconstructs Watson's train of lock just by observing him. I am fascinating by trying to recapture a train of thought, so I did indeed read your whole post.

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm not sure Magons has ever shown "obvious dislike for most things US", but that's just my opinion.


I disagree. I think she's been clear about that, not only in her posts but in how she overlooks the posts of anyone who's American. She has shown her bias. It didn't matter that we agreed with her and offered to be allies: we are American therefore we are anthem singing hand-on-heart imperialists in her mind.

My goodness, will I ever be able to refer to that without both of my middle fingers twitching in Magon's direction? I need to meet her in real life just to satisfy this urge to give the most offensive bird I can express... and more insults than I can come up with at the moment.

I guess I'll just have to hope she is fucking herself good and hard. She's earned it.

*middle finger*

Quote:

She's absolutely right. I repeat, again, it's not "Americans", but a small minority of moneyed, powerful individuals driving it, and given how much MOST of us here hate it, putting it on us is unfair.
Which is what I told her. For Magon's to ignore my message so entirely and go even further as to *blame* me for something I hate as much, or more, than she does, if damned near unforgivable.

Something I hate the worst of Americana for is ignoring what *I* (meaning: the reasonable Americans) say when we try to stop the insanity. Magons has done exactly this - she has ignored sanity so she can blame a scapegoat. Only a direct retraction from her makes this anywhere close to forgivable.

You are right about her use of "you." That's what did it for me, and as close as I can tell the others as well: she categorized me based on her presumptions. She has made no effort to take that back. Her bias and her ability to ignore the individual, the human being that exists separate from the state, makes her close to the evil in my mind.

Her mentality, the one of going with assumptions rather than *listening* to people who are individuals with their own ideas whether they are Aussies or Americans or anything else, is the root of why the true evil has taken over.

Yes, I went there. I defined evil and aimed it at her mentality.

Until the true allies are capable of putting their egos aside and *listening* to each other, the corporate fuckers will take advantage of us all. People with Magon's mentality will make it easier for the evil fuckers by refusing to acknowledge the true good guys and bad guys in the world.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:18 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


We'll have to agree to disagree. I've long respected you, I'm sad to see you so cemented in your opinion, but I will accept that it is so.

I will merely note that how and what you write absolutely epitomizes "Until the true allies are capable of putting their egos aside and *listening* to each other, the corporate fuckers will take advantage of us all."


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Saturday, November 9, 2013 9:34 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
We'll have to agree to disagree. I've long respected you, I'm sad to see you so cemented in your opinion, but I will accept that it is so.

I will merely note that how and what you write absolutely epitomizes "Until the true allies are capable of putting their egos aside and *listening* to each other, the corporate fuckers will take advantage of us all."




Hey - Magons need only say some mild form of: "I guess you have something to say that I might agree with, though you are American" and I'd be right there for her. That's all I've been looking for. What made me turn against her was her unwillingness to admit to such a small thing.

My interpretation of her input to this thread: "All you Americans are imperialists who are incapable of feeling empathy and incapable of understanding what it's like to lose one's culture to corporations." I disagree with this strongly and will continue to do so until she admits that some Americans may possibly have been through the same tragedy that she has.

My guess: she'll never make such an admission because she is so biased and so dependent on her scapegoat that she can consider no other option. She has chosen her good guys and her bad guys and she will not be swayed.

Go on Magons. Prove me wrong. It wouldn't take much.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This is still going on? Wow, I thought everyone had said everything...at least twice by now. Too bad we can't just let it die.

Magons DID agree with any number of things, Mal4, as well as taking responsibility for her own countrymen. Obviously it's not enough, maybe it never would be. I think we all get that you're pissed all to hell.

I'm glad you understand G. Myself, I wouldn't advise anyone to get involved; I've been through it enough times to know how it can eat up your life and produce no good results, which is why I only got peripherally involved in the Target thing...too old, too many times through the wringer. While yes, it's the only way to make any kind of an impact, nowadays those in power are SO much more powerful, in so many ways, that living one's own life and enjoying one's family as much as one can seems to me the more logical decision. I do continue to admire and support those willing to sacrifice, unquestionably.


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Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:46 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, I read through the entire thread. My personal conclusion is that people aren't hearing each other, tempers have flared and there's quite enough unpleasantness on both "sides" to suffice. After reading it all, I think I know where things went wrong, so if anyone's interested, here's my analysis:

MOST people were actually listening to one another, and understanding, when this all started. Wish nailed some of what I feel, and some of what Magons has been trying to say, in my opinion:
Quote:

I firmly believe most Americans have NO CLUE how we are affecting the rest of the world.

I'm sure a lot of Christians would deny that they want the rest of the world doing their holidays, but I know that a lot would secretly revel in the "superiority" of it all. It makes me kind of sick that Americans ( and lets face it- companies EVERYWHERE LOOOOVE how commercialized we are) are soo inadvertently messing with others cultures…


Personally, I think there are a lot of so-called "Christians" out there who already DO revel in the superiority of Christianity and would love for it to be universal, but that's another discussion.

The "revel in your cultural imperialism" was uncalled for, but given the personalities involved, not surprising. To say one ASSUMES "Magons is looking for people to acknowledge her cultural superiority" is about as asinine as Magons' statement, and every bit as much of a snark.

I didn't see anywhere Magons "(blamed) the excesses of her own people on America". I understand how what she wrote can be taken that way, but a number of us understood that's not what she was doing, Oonj got it exactly:

"People having fun is not the objection.
People adopting US customs in lieu of their own is felt as a loss.
Very upsetting when one loves-respects her own culture.
My refusal to hear-understand the hurt was like an insult."

And so did G:

"Her countrymen are proving to be just as weak and susceptible to million dollar marketing as ours have been. That has to be hard to take given country pride and obvious dislike for most things US."

I'm not sure Magons has ever shown "obvious dislike for most things US", but that's just my opinion.

Moving into psychoanalysis with "It's disingenuous at best. Denial and transference of guilt more likely" would be sufficient to make anyone's hackles go up, if they weren't already.

I then misunderstood something, which gave Byte the opportunity to take a swipe at Oonj and ream me (which still makes me laugh when Mal4 called it "only a little understandable bristling"), and the conversation got threadjacked into Byte going after me (despite my admitting I'd misunderstood and explaining why). During which time, I've refrained from mentioning until now, Byte TWICE wrote bald-faced lies about me, both of which she edited out when I called her on them. I'll probably get reamed for mentioning that, but it made an impression.

Skipping past all the ensuing bullshit, Magons came back and tried to explain:
Quote:

Inundation, some would say indoctrination with another's culture....24 hours of tv and films dominated by another culture along with sophisticated advertising changes the way people think. It changes their brains!!! That's what we have here. So produce our own, you say. Yeah we do. But market forces means that local productions can't compete with American imports. So there we have it. Local business cant compete with huge multinationals like KFC, MacDonalds, Cripsy Creme. pleased to say that Gloria Jean was a fizzer.



She's absolutely right. I repeat, again, it's not "Americans", but a small minority of moneyed, powerful individuals driving it, and given how much MOST of us here hate it, putting it on us is unfair. But the fact remains that it's virtually impossible to "fight against" by any country. Murdoch learned the lesson beautifully, and WE resent HIS influence over US as much as what Magons has been trying to explain. If you think of it that way, and how the Murdoch empire has and is quite literally indoctrinated/indoctrinating OUR more "manipulatable" citizens/voters, it might help a bit in understanding.

Magons went on to write quite clearly "So is it all bad and evil. Of course not." She admitted her "fuck you" was due to things other than just the discussion, and clearly wrote that she'd had a "melt down". Byte got that, and freely admitted she revels in pissing other people off "for no reason", but nobody else here seems to have read what Magons wrote, but raher continues to be stuck on what they THINK she's been saying.

What she's actually been saying is pretty clear. However, the listening stopped and anger really got started when she wrote this:
Quote:

I think perhaps its hard for you to imagine or empathise, given that you live in the domininant world power, but this is one of the reasons people get snippy with Americans. Not only are you are powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally, but you've got that kind of dopey 'we're just trying to be the good guys' naivity going on. Or worse, a refusal to see it as your responsibility. It's just individual choice, right? I think you are smarter than that. That's the kind of argument I expect from Rap or Jongs or Geezer.


That, to me, is the problem. The use of "you" makes it personal, and it's damned hard NOT to feel like it's personal when written that way. There ARE enough Americans around who are "powerful and happy to weild your power militarily, economically and culturally"--we've got 'em right here--so for me as well, the generalized "you" was offensive. The "a refusal to see it as your responsibility" offended me, too, and might well have ALL of us who hate what our government/military gets up to and do everything we can to affect it, but seem to have no affect at all.

So that paragraph is definitely problematic; it goes against the understanding Magons showed elsewhere and gives rise to claims that she hates America/Americans. I don't know if she realizes that there have been MANY attempts at rejecting MAcDonalds and those like them here in the States, as well--hell, we just went through trying to keep Target out of San Rafael, for a couple of years, to no avail, and it was damned painful. She's right, but I don't know if she's aware that "In order to object, you have to put your income, your home and your livlihood on the line" HERE, too, and people do, are and have.

You can see the reaction it resulted in clearly from G's response…someone who is generally a very mellow poster:
Quote:

Happy?? You say stuff like that and it's obvious you want to paint every American with the same brush, something I'd expect from Whozit. You confuse governments and corporations for the people of a country, which is kind of International understanding 101. One of the major reasons Obama got in the WH was to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, which we're actually doing, painfully and too slowly, but it is happening. The populace voiced their majority opinion recently against bombing Syria, and overwhelming support for new gun registration and requirements - which our f*cking nutters in Congress decided to ignore. But, yanno, nevermind all that, enjoy your hate, obvious to me at least that's what this is about for you.


Mal4's response was much more reasonable, and pointed out some of the same things I have and G did, but the raised hackles are pretty clear. I'm glad she added "seem" to "You seem to be claiming that Americans are all evil for giving into the influence of these assholes, yet the Aussies who make the same bad decisions are helpless victims", because Magons didn't do that at all…I maintain it's that paragraph with all the dreaded "you"s in it that racheted everything up, and it hasn't slowed down ever since.

I don't think Magons at all DENIED "the existence of people who are fighting against the same multinationals in the US." I don't know if she's even aware that it happens here at least as much as it does around the world, and she most certainly never did "paint us as all McDonald's eating warmongers."

I'm extrapolating, given G's and Mal4's reactions and my own, to that being where some minds turned off, and settled on the "hates America" meme.

Onward on a side note: Oonj brought up The Ugly American, and wrote "I did read a magazine article or two at the time, the '60's. They were straight forward about: American tourists are unpopular around the world; because they are ignorant, arrogant and rude." It's absolutely true; when we lived in Afghanistan, even as a child I was appalled at the way visitors from America behaved. However, Oonj, the Brits DIDN'T have "class & decorum about it" when theirs was the dominant Empire, they were just as bad, if not WORSE. The difference is they had no interest in being "loved"--there's that American naiveté Magons mentioned, which I saw first hand many times. The British that I knew and read about simply assumed they were superior and behaved that way; the Americans I saw and read about were ignorant and almost invariably UNINTENTIONALLY rude, they just didn't get it. But both cultures overwhelmed parts of the rest of the world…the difference is that ours, a more modern empire, has done so in a world which is much more economically intertwined. Our country has had a MUCH bigger cultural and economic impact globally than the British Empire ever dreamed of.

Magons was very clear with "So am I saying we're squeaky clean? No, we do our own bad stuff and our gormless acceptance of the more vulgar and harmful elements of American culture is partially our responsibility."

But "the incredibly, overwhelming hostile reaction because I DONT LIKE HALLOWEEN" isn't accurate. The thread went way beyond Halloween, obviously; in my opinion, if it weren't for that one paragraph with all the generalized "you"s, this discussion might not have gone so off the rails. We're actually not in that much disagreement, if you read through it. But once things got going, nobody was "listening" to anyone else.

"I think far from me taking any responsibibility on behalf of my country, which I have, its YOU who denies any responsibility on behalf of your own." That's totally wrong; a quick re-read of just this analysis shows how many of us quickly acknowledged America's influence and our negativity about it, but things had gotten to "black-and-white country", so communication had ceased and all that had been forgotten.

Whether defensiveness, frustration, or something else going on outside FFF, "Oh please, get your hand off your heart and stop singing Star Spangled Banner for a moment. It's you whose got your panties in a twist" goes beyond the pale, in my opinion. Communication had definitely ceased at this point, and I'm not going any further because beyond this point, I think things got repetitious and people only remembered SOME of what others wrote, and everyone's talking at cross-purposes.

I commend you for trying to work it out, Magons, maybe if you bother to read this (I know it's long and I don't expect anyone to, I just like trying to figure out stuff like this, even when it doesn't happen to me, and especially when I see several people I respect go at each other), you can see where it went off the rails.

I'm going to offer one last thing: "I'm sorry I've come across as offensive, but you see, I'm genuinely shocked at the hostility that I've encountered because of my feelings around Halloween." It wasn't your feelings about Halloween, things didn't really go off the rails until the "you"s.

Maybe if you extrapolate to how you feel about the commercialization and inundation, then think about how it must feel to have it not just happening to you (on a much bigger scale than you experience, trust me!), but have it feel like someone is blaming you personally for it when you've fought it and hate it every bit as much as they do, and know the world has a view of you that ISN'T you at all, and to hear that view fairly frequently, you might get an inkling of how all this happened. The hostility is definitely not about Halloween.

Speaking JUST for myself: I don't take personal responsibility for the wrongs my country does, I try to do what I can to fight them, and I do have a lot of pride in some of the good things America has accomplished, but I still DO feel incredibly frustrated and yes, sometimes even illogically guilty, for my inability to change any of the bad stuff. So when it feels like it comes at me PERSONALLY, all those feelings hit home.




Thanks Niki. I think you've captured everything very well. I was going to do something similar myself but gave up knowing that anything I wrote would be interpreted in the worst possible way and be dismissed as athe whinings of an America hating bitch in urgent need of self pleasuring, which doesn't sound altogether bad on reflection ;)

I always meant the 'you' to mean 'the country of which you are a citizen' ie the world power, not the collection of individuals or an individual Sloppy writing on my behalf.

And by 'take responsibility' I was referring to what I perceived to be the rather strange response that America was in no way responsible for the economic, cultural and military power it weilds in the world. Not
'the responsibility of the individual for the doings of your country'. Which I think is actually a debatable point, worth its own thread, but not something I was trying to raise here at all, despite how it may have sounded. It was the denial that America was in any way responsible that set my hackles up.

As for being labeled as an America hater, to me that smacks of George W's 'you're either with us or against us' mentality, to which I am not going to even bother to reply. If that makes others feel entitled to dismiss my opinions, so be it.

Once again, thanks for trying to smooth out the tangles of this thread. I for one appreciate what you were trying to do.




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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:36 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

And by 'take responsibility' I was referring to what I perceived to be the rather strange response that America was in no way responsible for the economic, cultural and military power it weilds in the world.




Wow, 150 posts in and you seem to understand even less - I guess my bad for trying.



Your bad for being a bit of dick....

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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:03 AM

MAL4PREZ


Because beating a dead horse is fun...

I dare Magons to find a direct quote of anyone in this thread saying America is not responsible for what our out-of-control military, etc does. Go on Magons.

Of course, you also claimed that your input here was merely that you didn't like a holiday, and when I provided direct quotes of you saying much much more.... crickets. So you obviously don't go for direct quotes much. Or responsibility for what you've said, really.

I'll stand by anything I posted here. You?

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Still? Guys, you've done nothing but repeat what you've said before, piling on when Magons merely responded to my post and has already said she's in the middle of something IRL and her reactions have been at least partly because of that. Can't we move on?


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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:22 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Still? Guys, you've done nothing but repeat what you've said before, piling on when Magons merely responded to my post and has already said she's in the middle of something IRL and her reactions have been at least partly because of that. Can't we move on?




Niki, sometimes you need to let go of directing traffic. I love you hon, but you're not the boss.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm not directing traffic. I realize you see it that way, but what it was written as was a plea for peace. There's a difference between "can't we move on?" and "You better stop!" It's not like I threaten people with "Dire Consequences" when they don't do what I want.


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Tuesday, November 12, 2013 4:04 PM

OONJERAH


"Why Halloween is depressing"

It comes about 2 weeks before my birthday. My birthday is Far more
important
than Halloween. Could be a national holiday.

I recall that at the top of the thread, Halloween was depressing
maybe because it's hard to find the right costume to wear or maybe,
moreso, Mal4Prez: "Can women exist in fiction these days without
being all sexed up?"


To me, the "All sexed up" part would be a more relevant talk.
The way things are -vs- how it's supposed to be fosters negative
feelings, frustration, resentment.

Such a topic is just as big as Left vs Right in politics.


======================- :>

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Wednesday, November 13, 2013 2:29 PM

OONJERAH



I believe NOD would emphasize quiet rest-relaxation,
watching favorite movies. Lots of ice cream would be served.
People would make speeches about the wonder of Oonj,
but I would not make an appearance.

A big activity would be touring the hummingbird gardens.
Folks who can fall asleep fast as a pussycat would win prizes.
No fireworks. It's a calm & peaceful holiday.

Hmmm. I may extend it to a 3-day holiday.


=========================-:>

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Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I can beat even that.
See, I have a "Survival Mantra" I use when taking even catastrophic, life-ending type damage, it's technically from a ridiculous childrens show I wound up vetting for a parent of small children, but this latest incident with the medical profession screwing up due to confirmation bias, not listening to the patient, and general dogmaticism, on top of a stroke in all but name which rightfully SHOULD have killed me dead-right-there on the floor that monday morning, THIS is what kept me going, even when they sent me home with useless meds and a bad diagnosis, even when they had to drag me back into the hospital, even when they had to perform a desperation maneuver which woulda killed just about anyone else... it was THIS which kept me goin - if you could distill "happy" into audio form, here it is.



-Frem

PS: Slight variation of the lyrics to "I'm A-live", instead of In-Love, but the thought remains the same.

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Saturday, November 23, 2013 10:49 PM

MAL4PREZ


Hey Niki, did you ever watch The Crazy Ones?

And did I ever post that I figured out the perfect Halloween costume hours too late to do it?



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