REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Millions Facing Huge Costs, Lost Coverage Thanks to Obamacare Upheaval

POSTED BY: JONGSSTRAW
UPDATED: Saturday, November 2, 2013 15:17
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2816
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Monday, October 28, 2013 4:55 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

In California, tens of thousands of residents are facing higher premiums or are being dropped altogether from their insurance companies. In Florida and Pennsylvania, nearly 500,000 have lost coverage. Overall, economists estimate that between 20 and 40 million could ultimately lose their employer-provided insurance because of Obamacare.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obamacare-costs-losing-insurance/2013
/10/28/id/533417


40 million have to lose their current insurance so that 40 million who never wanted to pay for it can get it. So everything Obama and the dickhead Dems ever said about it was a fucking lie. Socialism in a nutshell.

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Monday, October 28, 2013 4:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, October 28, 2013 5:32 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


The Dark Side clouds everything. Darth Barackus, the Sith Master, has lied to the country and betrayed democracy.

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Monday, October 28, 2013 5:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

The Dark Side clouds everything...



You just HAD to go racial, huh?



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, October 28, 2013 6:00 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Nothing Mace Windu wouldn't have said himself.

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Monday, October 28, 2013 6:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan. Period.

LIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carney admits some Americans will lose existing plans under health-care law


Back in 2009, President Obama assured Americans that even under the health-care law he was pressing Congress to adopt, nothing in their insurance would change if they were satisfied with their current plan.
On Monday, White House press secretary Jay Carney acknowledged that some consumers would lose their "substandard plans" and have to pay higher premiums because of the new health-care law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/10/28/carney
-admits-some-americans-will-lose-existing-plans-under-health-care-law
/




Of course, we already knew this , and tried ( In vain ) to tell everyone, but hey... what do we know ?

Apparently, enough not to buy the pile of go-se our President was shoveling.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, October 28, 2013 7:19 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:00 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Verdict: Bullshit.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Verdict: Bullshit.



It's not personal. It's just war.



Verdict, 100% TRUE ! DING DING DING !

Screw what Mitt Romney said,a year and a half ago. Look around at the facts NOW, genius.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:50 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Screw what Mitt Romney said,a year and a half ago.


Haha if you recognise that what Romney said was bullshit, why are you guys parroting the exact same lie?

The facts now... You realise that 500,000 is not 40 million or 20 million or any number of 'millions' (as claimed in this thread), right?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It's not a lie, first and foremost.

What's going on NOW isn't relevant to what Romney said. I mean, he was right, and may have gotten the figures a bit off, but over all, O-Care is a complete and total disaster. They're having to already back track on CORNER STONE promises, like keeping your doctor / plan if you like it " PERIOD ".

THAT is the bullshit lie, right there. I don't know how you even THINK of trying to make this a Romney issue. Bait and switch perhaps? Trying to make Romney the issue somehow, as he lost, instead of focusing on Obama, who flat out lied?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And, unfortunately, folks are getting dropped partially based on the idea that they'll be able to go out to healthcare.gov and get coverage.

Oops.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:19 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Screw what Mitt Romney said,a year and a half ago.


Haha if you recognise that what Romney said was bullshit, why are you guys parroting the exact same lie?

The facts now... You realise that 500,000 is not 40 million or 20 million or any number of 'millions' (as claimed in this thread), right?

It's not personal. It's just war.



Facts are irrelevant when there is a narrative to sell!




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:29 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Rap in particular has no interest in facts and will not read any to save his life. He's got his talking points, and that's an end to it...facts are irrelevant.

For those actually interested in them, here's an analysis:
Quote:

The conversation about Obamacare shifted a bit over the weekend. Nobody has forgotten about the technical problems with healthcare.gov. But now critics are also focusing on something else: Reports of sharp premium increases that some individual consumers are facing. In the last few weeks, several hundred thousand Americans have received notices from their health insurance companies, effectively cancelling their existing policies. These consumers can get new policies, of course, but frequently they have to pay more for them.

The news reports are real—and not at all surprising. Obamacare is transforming one part of the existing health insurance market, in ways that will force some people to pay more than they do now. But that’s only part of the story. Many other people, quite possibly the majority of people in that market, will pay less than they do now. And even those paying more will be getting more comprehensive, more secure insurance.

If all of this sounds familiar, it should. Health policy experts spent much of the summer arguing about this very point—about the likelihood of both “rate shock” and “premium joy” and which effect matters more. The lesson of that debate (at least to me) was that journalists, politicians, and anybody else talking about this should really provide a full, nuanced picture—noting all the ways Obamacare is affecting premiums and how that will play out for people in different situations.

But that doesn't seem to be happening, except at places like Politifact. More typical is a recent study from the Heritage Foundation suggesting that most people will end up paying more. That report continues to reverberate throughout the right wing press, even though it left out half the facts.

So here’s a quick refresher on what's really happening:

1. For the vast majority of Americans, very little is changing. Most Americans get insurance either through Medicare, Medicaid, or an employer. The Affordable Care Act isn’t doing much to alter premiums or out-of-pockets of these plans, at least for the time being. The big changes are mostly taking place in the “non-group” market—that is, for individuals who buy coverage on their own rather than through an employer.

2. One of Obamacare’s primary goals is to make sure everybody has a decent health insurance policy. Under the law, every plan should include a comprehensive set of benefits and put some limits on what people pay out-of-pocket. The policies now available in the non-group market frequently don’t meet those standards. They might leave out benefits like maternity or mental health—or they might have truly exorbitant deductibles. Starting next year, insurers can’t sell new policies unless they meet Obamacare’s standards. That will tend to make insurance more expensive.

3. Another major goal of Obamacare is to make sure all people can get coverage at uniform prices, regardless of pre-existing conditions. This is known as “guaranteed issue” and “community rating.” Today insurers frequently charge higher premiums or deny coverage altogether to people with pre-existing conditions. This allows them to keep prices low for the young and the healthy. Obamacare will force insurers to abandon these practices. But if the old and the sick get to pay less, the young and the healthy will have to pay more.

4. Obamacare has already introduced some reforms to keep down the price of insurance. Some of these are designed to make medical care itself more efficient—in ways that, hopefully, will eventually reduce insurance premiums. Other reforms attempt to influence insurance prices directly, by, for example, limiting how much money insurers can siphon off for premiums and overhead. A study by the Kaiser Family Foundation suggested this provision, known as the "medical loss ratio" requirement, saved consumers about $2.1 billion in 2012.



5. Obamacare also has subsidies that offset premium increases for the majority of Americans. The value of the tax credits, which are financed by higher taxes on the wealthy and various cuts to government health care spending, varies depending on the incomes of the people receiving them. But in some cases they are worth several thousand dollars. That would be enough to wipe out any premium increases from the law’s new regulations. People making just a little above the poverty line will frequently have access to policies that cost less than $100 a month. Keep in mind that the tax credits are available upfront, when somebody buys insurance—so it’s really more like a discount on the sticker price than a tax benefit somebody collects later on.

6. Lots of people buying non-group insurance today will find they can get insurance for much, much less than they are paying today. Partly that’s because of the tax credits. But partly that’s because they’ll become eligible for Medicaid—at least in those states joining in the program’s expansion. Young adults, under the age of 26, also have the option of enrolling in their parents’ plans. And people younger than 30 will have access to special catastrophic plans that are even cheaper than other Obamacare insurance options, though they cover less.

7. These factors will mix together in different ways for different people, depending on income, place of residence, and so on. There’s lots of disagreement about how many people will pay more versus how many people will pay less. (The experts I trust most continue to say that, most likely, the majority of people will end up paying less.) But even if those paying more are a relatively tiny percentage of the population overall, they will still be a large group in raw numbers. It’s a big country! That’s why there are so many of these stories circulating right now. Of course, even those people paying more for their coverage will be paying rates that are, for the most part, comparable to the cost of insurance that employers provide to employees. They'll also be getting a level of coverage and security the old non-group market usually did not provide.

Are these trade-offs worthwhile? Is it fair to make the young, healthy, and wealthy subsidize the old, sick, and non-wealthy? Those are obviously issues about which intelligent, honest people can disagree. And right now the only way to get those all-important tax credits is through the healthcare.gov website—or call centers and paper applications that ultimately rely on the same technology. The people who stand to benefit from this transition don’t know it yet, because they aren’t able to log on and see how much they’ll save. That’s a big reason the stories of rate hikes are getting so much attention—and one more reason the federal governmetn needs to fix its website soon. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115372/how-obamacare-changing-insur
ance-premiums-and-coverage


None of which will be read, paid attention to or addressed by any of the righties on this site, I have no doubt. It's an actual ANALYSIS, not just visceral "yelling points" devoid of facts.


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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Niki, you're flat out wrong.

Not only will MILLIONS be forced out of their plans, but Obama KNEW this would happen.

Spin this with any number of cut / paste volumes and graphs as you want, it doesn't matter.

If you like what you've got, you can NOT keep it.

End of discussion.


Obama lied.

Face THAT fact.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:15 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Niki, you're flat out wrong.

Not only will MILLIONS be forced out of their plans, but Obama KNEW this would happen.



Problem is people are not being forced out because of the law. It has a grandfather clause. The insurance companies are cancelling polices on there own, in the hopes that people will use the subsidies and sign up for plans that will fit into the new requirements to spend 80% of premiums on health care.

Funny thing that it would have been MORE regulation that would have stopped this.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:30 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

It's not a lie, first and foremost.


The fact check verdict:



Quote:

I mean, he was right, and may have gotten the figures a bit off

Haha

Quote:

What's going on NOW isn't relevant to what Romney said

Correct. What's happening now is people in the individual market losing their plans because of Obamacare. What Romney was talking (and lying) about is people who get healthcare through their employer losing coverage. And that's exactly the lie that Jongs' article is parroting:

"The Congressional Budget Office "estimates that as many as 20 million will lose their employer-provided health insurance under Obamacare."

See? That's the exact same claim that Romney made. Hence the fact check.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, October 31, 2013 4:11 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


All comprehensive insurance is a "Ponzi Scheme," just like Life Insurance is a Ponzi Scheme. The people who are alive and well pay for the people that are not so healthy, and so on.

All insurance works this way. It's a pool of money to subsidize those that have accidents. Quel surprise!? Didn't know that did ya!

What's happening is that there are people that bought individual junk insurance. I was one of those people when I was unemployed and working temp jobs. It was cheap. Only problem was that it didn't cover much except for very minor doctor visits (checkups). The deductible was about $3000 and there weren't that many doctors or hospitals that participated.

This way, everyone will have coverage. When someone doesn't have insurance both the state and local governments would have to pay to cover the individual. With the ACA everyone pays into it and the hit on the care is much less. The 5% of the people that have these individual "junk" insurance policies will have their coverage converted over to a comprehensive coverage insurance pool (they don't lose it). Some, a small percentage, may pay more but it's more coverage within the pool of contributors.

And please don't give me that "socialism" crap because you already participate in different kind of pool - it's called taxes. Everyone throws their money into a pot and "viola" we get roads, bridges and schools. So if you don't want to participate - leave. Truth be told, the founding fathers knew this would happen, so they created and hammered out this little document - The Constitution - you may have heard of it. It got this great experiment started some 200-something years ago. Oh, by the way, within that document it stipulated that We, the people were in charge. They gave it a name, it's called Government. In it, they assigned certain jobs to certain people, but the main idea was to have reps that would do these jobs and chief among those ideas was that NO King would rule.

Big Government is us. We, the people. Shocking isn't it!


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

In California, tens of thousands of residents are facing higher premiums or are being dropped altogether from their insurance companies. In Florida and Pennsylvania, nearly 500,000 have lost coverage. Overall, economists estimate that between 20 and 40 million could ultimately lose their employer-provided insurance because of Obamacare.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obamacare-costs-losing-insurance/2013
/10/28/id/533417


40 million have to lose their current insurance so that 40 million who never wanted to pay for it can get it. So everything Obama and the dickhead Dems ever said about it was a fucking lie. Socialism in a nutshell.


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Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Problem is people are not being forced out because of the law. It has a grandfather clause. The insurance companies are cancelling polices on there own, in the hopes that people will use the subsidies and sign up for plans that will fit into the new requirements to spend 80% of premiums on health care.



The Washington Post disagrees with you...

Quote:

The law did allow “grandfathered” plans — for people who had obtained their insurance before the law was signed on March 23, 2010 — to escape this requirement and some other aspects of the law. But the regulations written by HHS while implementing the law set some tough guidelines, so that if an insurance company makes changes to a plan’s benefits or how much members pay through premiums, co-pays or deductibles, then a person’s plan likely loses that status.

If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. (With last year’s inflation rate of 4 percent, that means the co-pay could not increase by more than $5.20.) Another provision says the co-insurance rate could not be increased at all above the level it was on March 23, 2010.

While one might applaud an effort to rid the country of inadequate insurance, the net effect is that over time, the plans would no longer meet the many tests for staying grandfathered. Already, the percentage of people who get coverage from their job via a grandfathered plan has dropped from 56 percent in 2011 to 36 percent in 2013.

In the individual insurance market, few plans were expected to meet the “grandfathered” requirements, which is why many people are now receiving notices that their old plan is terminated and they need to sign up for different coverage. Again, this should be no surprise. As HHS noted in a footnote of a report earlier this year: “We note that, as the Affordable Care Act is implemented, we expect grandfathered coverage to diminish, particularly in the individual market.”



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/30/obamas-
pledge-that-no-one-will-take-away-your-health-plan
/

...and also gives Pres. Obama four Pinocchios for the "And if you like your insurance plan, you will keep it." statement.

The line "If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560)..." tells you something else about the ACA.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:26 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Problem is people are not being forced out because of the law. It has a grandfather clause. The insurance companies are cancelling polices on there own, in the hopes that people will use the subsidies and sign up for plans that will fit into the new requirements to spend 80% of premiums on health care.



The Washington Post disagrees with you...

Quote:

The law did allow “grandfathered” plans — for people who had obtained their insurance before the law was signed on March 23, 2010 — to escape this requirement and some other aspects of the law. But the regulations written by HHS while implementing the law set some tough guidelines, so that if an insurance company makes changes to a plan’s benefits or how much members pay through premiums, co-pays or deductibles, then a person’s plan likely loses that status.

If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. (With last year’s inflation rate of 4 percent, that means the co-pay could not increase by more than $5.20.) Another provision says the co-insurance rate could not be increased at all above the level it was on March 23, 2010.

While one might applaud an effort to rid the country of inadequate insurance, the net effect is that over time, the plans would no longer meet the many tests for staying grandfathered. Already, the percentage of people who get coverage from their job via a grandfathered plan has dropped from 56 percent in 2011 to 36 percent in 2013.

In the individual insurance market, few plans were expected to meet the “grandfathered” requirements, which is why many people are now receiving notices that their old plan is terminated and they need to sign up for different coverage. Again, this should be no surprise. As HHS noted in a footnote of a report earlier this year: “We note that, as the Affordable Care Act is implemented, we expect grandfathered coverage to diminish, particularly in the individual market.”



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/30/obamas-
pledge-that-no-one-will-take-away-your-health-plan
/

...and also gives Pres. Obama four Pinocchios for the "And if you like your insurance plan, you will keep it." statement.

The line "If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560)..."



How does that disagree? If the insurance companies make changes to existing plans that disqualify those plans that is still on the insurance companies.

Thanks for playing.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, October 31, 2013 5:49 PM

CHRISISALL


So, we're fighting here over...what exactly?
ACA is shifting everything around- EVERYTHING. People ARE being dropped from their coverage, we KNEW this was gonna happen (forget what Obama parroted previously about no one getting dropped- he's another clueless Prez - remember WMD?). We got car insurance forced on us a long while ago, I'm surprised forced health insurance was THIS far behind. Oh, and you rightwingnuts, if we had gotten Romney as President, right now they'd be rolling our Romnycare, and it would be almost identical to 'Bamacare.
Dorks.
But, let's keep acting all OMG about this.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 9:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
How does that disagree? If the insurance companies make changes to existing plans that disqualify those plans that is still on the insurance companies.



If the rules are written so that the insurance conpanies can't meet them and stay in business, like freezing co-insurance payments at 2010 rates? When the HHS itself notes "“We note that, as the Affordable Care Act is implemented, we expect grandfathered coverage to diminish, particularly in the individual market.” someone should have figured out that many folks would not be able to keep their insurance.

Then there are plans being dropped because they don't meet the requirements of the ACA for coverage - ambulatory patient services; emergency services; hospitalization; maternity and newborn care; mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

This stuff is wonderful, but - for example - Madame Geezer and I are not likely to need maternity and newborn care or pediatric services, but if our existing insurance plan didn't include them it would go away.



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 1, 2013 9:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
So, we're fighting here over...what exactly?
ACA is shifting everything around- EVERYTHING. People ARE being dropped from their coverage, we KNEW this was gonna happen (forget what Obama parroted previously about no one getting dropped...



But Obama's promise was one thing that got the legislation passed. Interesting that when a Democratic president lies, you suggest we should just forget about it. Does that make you a Leftwingnut?

Actually, my big problem is the incompetent way the rollout of ACA has proceeded so far. Everyone compares it with Medicare Part D or Romneycare, but you'd think that the folks designing the much more complicated ACA would have learned a thing or two from those startups. Instead, they're making the same mistakes. As noted before, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

ETA: Also have a problem with the lack of transparency about the healthcare.gov rollout. When Ms. Sebelius claims that she can't get figures for enrollments from the system, something's not right.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 1, 2013 11:14 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
How does that disagree? If the insurance companies make changes to existing plans that disqualify those plans that is still on the insurance companies.



If the rules are written so that the insurance conpanies can't meet them and stay in business, like freezing co-insurance payments at 2010 rates? When the HHS itself notes "“We note that, as the Affordable Care Act is implemented, we expect grandfathered coverage to diminish, particularly in the individual market.” someone should have figured out that many folks would not be able to keep their insurance.

Then there are plans being dropped because they don't meet the requirements of the ACA for coverage - ambulatory patient services; emergency services; hospitalization; maternity and newborn care; mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

This stuff is wonderful, but - for example - Madame Geezer and I are not likely to need maternity and newborn care or pediatric services, but if our existing insurance plan didn't include them it would go away.



As the article explains plans that do not meet the new requirments will only be dropped if they fall out of grandfather status. That, regardless of how the rules are written, is still on the insurance companies.

Not to mention the vast majority of plans being canceled are junk plans. You may not need some coverage types, but the whole point of insurance is shared risk.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 11:45 AM

ELVISCHRIST


I like what I've got, and I'm able to keep it.

Raptor is flat out lying.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 11:50 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

As the article explains plans that do not meet the new requirments will only be dropped if they fall out of grandfather status. That, regardless of how the rules are written, is still on the insurance companies.





In the conservative universe where Jesus rode a T-Rex, if an insurance company raises your premiums it's the black guy's fault.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 11:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

like freezing co-insurance payments at 2010 rates?
Maybe they could trim some of that 30% "administrative" costs and 10% profits and make up the difference?

If the insurance companies really WANTED to keep these plans in force, they could have. The vast majority of people get their health care through their employers, or thru Medicare. That means the vast majority of (95%) profits come from large contracts, not the individual bits and pieces that the insurances offer. The insurances prolly could have eaten that $2 increase (above the allowable $5 increase) in copays on the 5% of their insurance portfolio represented by individual plans and still made a profit. My guess is they just didn't want to.

I think the insurances wanted to dump these plans and jump on the ACA bandwagon, and this is the perfect opportunity to do that and blame Obama, and the rightwing is stupid enough to believe them.

ALSO, from the Washington Post

Quote:

How many people are going to get cancellation notices?

It's hard to put an exact number on this, given that insurance plans are the ones who decide whether or not to continue offering an insurance product. Experts have estimated that somewhere between half and three-quarters of those who currently buy their own policies will not have the option to renew coverage, which works out to around 7 to 12 million people.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/29/this-is-why
-obamacare-is-cancelling-some-peoples-insurance-plans
/

Not 40 million.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 12:22 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

If the rules are written so that the insurance conpanies can't meet them and stay in business

Show where that is true. It's not. What is TRUE is what Shiny said, and what we experienced and I described in another thread re: vision/dental insurance.

Simply put: The ACA covers more people, makes sure people get ACTUAL coverage, and lessens the insurance companies' ability to "game" the bet.

Insurance is a bet. They bet we'll pay them more than we cost them, we bet we'll get sick enough to cost them money. It's an okay bet if you want to take it, as long as it's a FAIR bet. But, knowing how humans are, the insurance companies (just like banks) "hedged" THEIR side of the bet a ton of little ways; by minimizing coverage, by annual limits, lifetime limits, denial for pre-existing conditions (shall I reference some of THOSE??), kicking people off insurance once the insurance company started LOSING on THEIR bet, writing legalese so they could refuse coverage, and on and on.

Along comes the ACA and it says to the insurance companies, you have to make a slightly more FAIR bet; you can't opt out of the wager when you're not winning ENOUGH to keep you happy...consumers never could, they either paid what the insurance company demanded or went without, or couldn't get it no matter what 'cuz the deck wasn't stacked sufficiently in the insurance company's favor. It's already pretty damned stacked, if you look at the facts.

The tradeoff was the ACA said "we'll cover everyone", hence the insurance companies get more customers, younger ones who won't cost them as much, to offset all the games they've been playing to win BIG from the rest of us. Insurance companies won't go out of business, that's bullshit. They've still got a damned good thing going and they know it.

So previously, insurance companies could sell "nothing policies" like the one FauxNews exposed (see thread), which DIDN'T OFFER ANY REAL COVERAGE, but because they were cheap and people don't read their policies, people bought. They either later discovered they didn't have SHIT covered, or that they were paying premiums for the privilege of THINKING they had insurance...which they really didn't. It was a good game.

Now people have to get more real insurance...don't kid yourselves, the bet still favors the "house". But now, all those millions without health insurance who go to the E.R. for medical treatment--which we've all been paying for via taxes and higher premiums--will be paying their fair share. Now insurance companies will have to place a more fair wager; spend 80% of our premiums on actual COVERAGE, not shareholder premiums, huge benes for admin and a ton of other stuff, not raise premiums left and right whenever they feel like making more profit. Now they'll actually have to PAY when the bet goes against them, when someone has a catastrophic illness (which is what we bet with our premiums would happen), they'll have to take all those higher-risk bets from people with pre-existing conditions, etc. It'll just be a little bit more of a fair bet on our side, and we won't be paying for all the uninsured who end up in the E.R.

Also, with the ACA, subsidies are available to help with all this. People who earn less than 400 percent of the federal poverty line (about $45,000 for an individual) can use a tax subsidy to purchase their plan.

Simple as that. It's easy as hell to scream and rant if you leave out all the facts, but those ARE the facts. You can use all the visceral language you want, but you'll have to cite some real facts to debate all of the above.

As to "Interesting that when a Democratic president lies, you suggest we should just forget about it", I didn't catch anyone saying "forget about it". I think it sucks. I'm also old enough, as are you, to know full well that politicians lie every day, and you don't seem bothered by all the BLATANT LIES everyone against the ACA has been and continue to put forth every day. It's called "perspective", and it's why we view you as a right winger.

NOBODY HERE IS HAPPY ABOUT OBAMACARE, and we've been real clear about that. If it had been possible to get single payor--which would have been Medicare For All--we'd have had a perfectly good website already working which would have made all this idiocy unnecessary. But that wasn't possible; the right made absolutely sure of that, and the only thing that could GET passed was this abomination tradeoff that lets the insurance industry continue to game the system for profit. Just like with Social Security and Medicare, over time it will be improved.

And again with the "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Given we already had Medicare and a website for that, where were you bitching about the rollout of Part D? The rollout has been fucked: fact. Governments DON'T learn from history, as I said before, of we'd never have had Vietnam or the Iraq invasion...and that one contained a whole slew of the biggest lies an ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION told us in my lifetime.


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Friday, November 1, 2013 12:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yep, especially the part about objecting to lies. It seems that those who object most to "lying" are the ones who do it most often. As always, there is a failure to look in the mirror.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 1:23 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...





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Friday, November 1, 2013 1:58 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

NOBODY HERE IS HAPPY ABOUT OBAMACARE

Rightwingnuts don't seem to want to get that...

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Friday, November 1, 2013 2:38 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


”The website might be slow. But, you know what’s fast? The questionnaire now. The questionnaire used to take a long time because they were looking for pre-existing conditions that you might have where they could throw you off. Now, that doesn’t exist. So, the questionnaire is: ‘Are you breathing?’ ‘Yes.’” -Bill Maher


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Friday, November 1, 2013 3:23 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


”The irony of this is that they hired a Canadian Internet company to do this. And this Canadian company had been fired by the Canadian government for f*cking up there. They were fired there for that. So, we hired reject Canadians, who have their own healthcare, and then they just messed this up.” -Michael Moore


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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:22 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
”The website might be slow. But, you know what’s fast? The questionnaire now. The questionnaire used to take a long time because they were looking for pre-existing conditions that you might have where they could throw you off. Now, that doesn’t exist. So, the questionnaire is: ‘Are you breathing?’ ‘Yes.’” -Bill Maher




So I can see there's no point in this anymore. No matter how bad the healthcare.org rollout gets, or no matter how Obama lied to get the ACA passed, you'll just quote comedians and propagandists and post up cartoons. That's apparently your idea of debate.

Think it's time for another break so y'all can have your left wing circle jerk in peace.

See you later.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:31 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, that's cute. I gave you a whole, VERY long post explaining what it's all about, specifically rebutted your points (HAVE you any proof that any insurance companies are going out of business??), all IN MY OWN WORDS, even, not a cut and paste from anyone else, and rather than debate any of it, you totally ignore it, dismiss it as "you'll just quote comedians and propagandists and post up cartoons" and go off in a huff.

Pay attention, folks; this is how Geezer "debates" an issue. For future reference.


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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:35 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So I can see there's no point in this anymore. No matter how bad the healthcare.org rollout gets, or no matter how Obama lied to get the ACA passed, you'll just quote comedians and propagandists and post up cartoons. That's apparently your idea of debate.

Think it's time for another break so y'all can have your left wing circle jerk in peace.

See you later.



Everyone knows the rollout has been utterly fucked. What you and the other morons don't get is that the failure of the rollout does not mean the law is a failure. No matter how many time the facts such as the grandfather clause is brought up it is still Obama's fault. Even without that the overwhelming majority of people still have the same insurance policies they had before.

Your pissed, because you are wrong.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Geezer, you're an ass, did you know that?

Do you know what an exact analogy of the rollout of "Obamacare" is?

Medicare Part D/ Bush.

Bush lied to get it in place... lied about the cost, which was faxed anonymously to a Congressional aide by the actuary who did the REAL cost estimate. (Bush, you may recall, swore to Congress that it wouldn't cost more than $400 billion, when the REAL estimate was over $500 billion.) Bush failed to use the purchasing power of the Federal government to negotiate the best prices, and designed a vast giveaway to Big Pharma.

When it came to the vote, it was a bloody, messy process
Quote:

Here are some things that happened on the night the GOP pushed the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit through the House of Representatives:

A 15-minute vote was scheduled, and at the end of 15 minutes, the Democrats had won. The Republican leadership froze the clock for three hours while they desperately whipped defectors. This had never been done before. The closest was a 15-minute extension in 1987 that then-congressman Dick Cheney called “the most arrogant, heavy-handed abuse of power I’ve ever seen in the 10 years that I’ve been here.”

Tom DeLay bribed Rep. Nick Smith to vote for the legislation, using the political future of Smith's son for leverage. DeLay was later reprimanded by the House Ethics Committee. The leadership told Rep. Jim DeMint that they would cut off funding for his Senate race in South Carolina if he didn't vote for the bill. The chief actuary of Medicare, Rick Foster, had scored the legislation as costing more than $500 billion. The Bush administration suppressed his report, in a move the Government Accounting Office later judged "illegal.”

Rep. Jo Ann Emerson, a "no" vote, spent the night "hiding on the Democratic side of the floor, crouching down to avoid eye contact with the Republican search team."



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/lessons_from_the_m
edicare_pres.html


The benefit calculations were complex and led to the famous "donut hole". The rollout itself was a nightmare.

Did Democrats object to all of the problems with Medicare D? Of course they did! Did they engage in the GOP-kind of moronic "kill the government" histrionics?

No, they didn't. They just worked to make it better.

Okay, you can go and pout now. But if you think the reichwing is being treated "unfairly", maybe you deserve it and it's not so unfair after all.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:51 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You want cartoons? Here it is in a nutshell:




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Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:59 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I love how much Niki gets under Geezer's skin.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Everyone knows the rollout has been utterly fucked.


Seriously, since when has a major systems rollout ever NOT been utterly fucked ?

Hell, even the best gaming company on the planet (Rockstar, and a division staffed by a lot of Interplay refugess) can't manage to not bork it up, and you expect the GOVERNMENT, on the heels of a shutdown fubar-fisco and general heel dragging and sabotage from the troglodyte horde to do better ?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/10/01/gta-online-and-obam
acares-health-care-exchange-both-entirely-borked-by-traffic-on-first-day
/

Chalk this one up to yet another fallacy by the dumb and dumber debate team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

-Frem

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Niki, you're flat out wrong.

Not only will MILLIONS be forced out of their plans, but Obama KNEW this would happen.



Problem is people are not being forced out because of the law. It has a grandfather clause. The insurance companies are cancelling polices on there own, in the hopes that people will use the subsidies and sign up for plans that will fit into the new requirements to spend 80% of premiums on health care.

Funny thing that it would have been MORE regulation that would have stopped this.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



That's nothing but admin spin and lies. They did this SPECIFICALLY to kill the insurance companies, and Obama knew well in advance this would happen. It was by design.



Quote:

Obama Officials In 2010: 93 Million Americans Will Be Unable To Keep Their Health Plans Under Obamacare


If you read the Affordable Care Act when it was passed, you knew that it was dishonest for President Obama to claim that “if you like your plan, you can keep your plan,” as he did—and continues to do—on countless occasions. And we now know that the administration knew this all along. It turns out that in an obscure report buried in a June 2010 edition of the Federal Register, administration officials predicted massive disruption of the private insurance market.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/31/obama-officials-i
n-2010-93-million-americans-will-be-unable-to-keep-their-health-plans-under-obamacare
/




Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Which, of course G, bothers Rap not at all.

Obama "SPECIFICALLY" planned this in order to kill insurance companies? Now THAT's a cute bit of delusional thinking! If the insurance companies had seen something coming down the pike that would kill them, it never would have had a snowball's chance in hell, and everyone knows it. The truth, once again:
Quote:

The health law allowed plans that existed back in March 2010, when it became a law, to keep selling coverage. These are known as "grandfathered plans:" They don't meet the health law's requirements, but as long as they don't change much, insurers can keep offering them.

Insurance companies typically do like to change their insurance plans, making changes to cost-sharing or the benefits they offer. That means that grandfathered plans have disappeared.

These cancellations are, essentially, a lot of grandfathered plans exiting the insurance marketplace. From an insurance company's vantage point, grandfathered plans are a bit of a dead end: They can't enroll new subscribers and are really constrained in their ability to tweak the benefit package or cost-sharing structure. There's not a whole lot of business sense, for a managed care company, in maintaining a health plan that doesn't meet the health law's new requirements.

There are lots of insurance policies, especially on the individual market, that are really bare bones. Some argue they shouldn't even be called insurance coverage, because their coverage is too sparse to insure against financial ruin.

The whole idea of the insurance expansion isn't to get Americans to purchase anything called "insurance." It's to get them to purchase a plan that is relatively comprehensive and helps protect against financial ruin. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/29/this-is-why
-obamacare-is-cancelling-some-peoples-insurance-plans/
]


Not that any of that will bother Rap one iota, he'll just scream " admin spin and lies" without even bothering to READ any of it, much less understand it. That's how his game is played.




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Saturday, November 2, 2013 10:21 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Niki, you're flat out wrong.

Not only will MILLIONS be forced out of their plans, but Obama KNEW this would happen.



Problem is people are not being forced out because of the law. It has a grandfather clause. The insurance companies are cancelling polices on there own, in the hopes that people will use the subsidies and sign up for plans that will fit into the new requirements to spend 80% of premiums on health care.

Funny thing that it would have been MORE regulation that would have stopped this.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



That's nothing but admin spin and lies. They did this SPECIFICALLY to kill the insurance companies, and Obama knew well in advance this would happen. It was by design.



Quote:

Obama Officials In 2010: 93 Million Americans Will Be Unable To Keep Their Health Plans Under Obamacare


If you read the Affordable Care Act when it was passed, you knew that it was dishonest for President Obama to claim that “if you like your plan, you can keep your plan,” as he did—and continues to do—on countless occasions. And we now know that the administration knew this all along. It turns out that in an obscure report buried in a June 2010 edition of the Federal Register, administration officials predicted massive disruption of the private insurance market.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/31/obama-officials-i
n-2010-93-million-americans-will-be-unable-to-keep-their-health-plans-under-obamacare
/




Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall



Is that your prediction then Rap? 93 million to lose their insurance plans?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 10:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

Is that your prediction then Rap? 93 million to lose their insurance plans?

It's not personal. It's just war.



It's the Obama admin's mid range estimate.

Why are you asking if it's MY prediction ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 11:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Is that your prediction then Rap? 93 million to lose their insurance plans? -KPO

It's the Obama admin's mid range estimate. Why are you asking if it's MY prediction ? -rappy

Because YOU posted it?? I mean, really, why would you post it if you're not willing to stand behind your posts?

OK, you let's rephrase the question to avoid your usual tap-dancing: Is this a prediction YOU AGREE WITH? Yes, or no. Simple question, simple answer.

Gotta love the GOP "answer"
Quote:

Senator Ron Johnson (R., Wisc.) and Rep. Fred Upton (R., Mich.) have proposed the “If You Like Your Health Care Plan You Can Keep It Act,” with dozens of co-sponsors. The two-page bill simply states that “nothing in [the Affordable Care Act] shall be construed to require that an individual terminate coverage under a group health plan or health insurance coverage in which such individual was enrolled during any part of the period beginning on the date of enactment of this Act and ending on December 31, 2013.”
WOW! What a bloviating proposal!

First of all, INDIVIDUALS aren't terminating their coverage, the insurance companies are. Second, what about all of those individuals with INDIVIDUAL coverage? If Johnson and Upton wanted to write a meaningful bill, they would write one that says "Nothing in the ACA shall be construed to require that INSURANCE COMPANIES terminate coverage of any currently covered individual or group" There, that actually does something, and it took fewer words and was easier to write. Johnson and Upton are merely jacking off for political coverage.

Quote:

That's nothing but admin spin and lies. They did this SPECIFICALLY to kill the insurance companies, and Obama knew well in advance this would happen. It was by design.
Kill the insurance companies? Rappy, how did you get from "a" to "the square root of negative one" in one sentence, without any apparent intervening logic?

If people are being terminated (BY THE INSURANCE COMPANIES) it's not like they drop out of the market. After all, who are they going to get their NEW coverage from? Medicare? A single payer fund? Nope, they're gonna head right back to the insurance companies for coverage, some of them with financial assistance, because that is how the plan was created. So how is that "killing the insurance companies"? Personally, I wish the ACA would, I just don't see it happening.

(BTW- I think I know your logic, but I would like to see you spell it out. You prolly won't because you'll look like the asshole that you are, but I'll give you a couple of days to tell me how Obama is trying to "kill" the insurance companies before I put the words in your mouth.)

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:48 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

Is that your prediction then Rap? 93 million to lose their insurance plans?

It's not personal. It's just war.



It's the Obama admin's mid range estimate.

Why are you asking if it's MY prediction ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall



So says a right wing opinion piece. I'm skeptical. I want to know what you think will happen regarding insurance plan losses. This 'buried' report apparently talks about millions of employer based plans being scrapped due to Obamacare. Is that what you predict then?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:58 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
”The website might be slow. But, you know what’s fast? The questionnaire now. The questionnaire used to take a long time because they were looking for pre-existing conditions that you might have where they could throw you off. Now, that doesn’t exist. So, the questionnaire is: ‘Are you breathing?’ ‘Yes.’” -Bill Maher




So I can see there's no point in this anymore. No matter how bad the healthcare.org rollout gets, or no matter how Obama lied to get the ACA passed, you'll just quote comedians and propagandists and post up cartoons. That's apparently your idea of debate.

Think it's time for another break so y'all can have your left wing circle jerk in peace.

See you later.





Somebody get that baby a fresh diaper!

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:16 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, I'd take a stab that, given Obama is a Socialist Marxist Muslim Something-Or-Other, Rap is trying to say that Obama will "kill" all the insurance companies so that he can bring Socialized Medicine to America...you know, single payor, Medicare-for-all, something like that. I'm just guessing, but that's the only conceivable answer I can think of. Although, come to think of it, he might not even have "thought" that far ahead; I may have just handed him his talking point on a silver platter...

The fact that the ACA will do no such thing, and is actually a gimme to the insurance companies with all the new customers, is irrelevant to him. Obama Bad, Must Be Up To Something.


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Saturday, November 2, 2013 3:17 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's the Obama admin's mid range estimate.

Why are you asking if it's MY prediction ?



No, it is the number of people's who's plans will lose grandfather status. That in itself does not mean they will lose coverage, or that the plans will not be modified to meet the new standards.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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