REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Okay, here's the REALITY

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, November 2, 2013 19:52
SHORT URL:
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Friday, November 1, 2013 1:16 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What really happens to the people who are receiving those cancelation letters that congressional Republicans have been parading in front of the cameras?

The bottom line: Almost all of them are going to receive the same or much better coverage, and many of them are going to receive financial help to purchase it.

First, let's put the issue in perspective. As Jonathan Gruber, the MIT professor who oversaw Massachusetts health reform and is therefore as close as we have to a true veteran of a dramatic insurance overhaul, told the New Yorker, it's only a small percentage (3 percent, to be precise) of Americans who you can really argue might at least potentially get screwed ( http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/10/obamacares-thre
e-per-cent.html).

About 80 percent of people, those who receive insurance through their employer or are already enrolled in a government program, won't experience any change at all, Gruber said. (The Kaiser Family Foundation puts the number at 79 percent).

Another 14 percent are currently uninsured people who will now be able to get covered because of the Affordable Care Act, Gruber said. (Kaiser pegs it at 16 percent uninsured). How many of those actually get covered depends on a few variables -- like whether Republicans states come around and expand Medicaid -- but that's the share that stands to gain.

So then you have 6 percent who might receive a cancelation letter (Kaiser says the individual market is 5 percent). Of those, Gruber argued, about half aren't really going to see a change: They'll technically enroll in a new plan, but it'll be very similar to what they already had.

That leaves 3 percent who will have to buy significantly different plans, some of whom might have to pay more for them (at least before the law's tax credits and other financial assistance kick in).

That also more or less lines up with the figures from the NBC News report that started the firestorm this week ( http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/29/21222195-obama-admi
nistration-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance?lite), which said that the Obama administration knew that 50 to 75 percent of the 14 million people in the individual market would receive a cancelation notice.

But those numbers require some historical context. According to the federal rule that birthed this controversy, research suggested that 40 to 67 percent of plans purchased on the individual market were in effect for one year or less. That's a lot of turnover that already existed before the ACA.

Alright, so those 3 percent of people who are going to have to purchase significantly different coverage: What are they going to get?

Nobody's disputing that they're going to get better coverage. The reason that plans are being canceled in the first place is that they don't comply with Obamacare's requirement that they cover 10 categories of care known as essential health benefits.

The administration released a report in December 2011 ( http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2011/individualmarket/ib.pdf) that explained how well the individual insurance market covered those essential benefits. It found: 62 percent didn't cover maternity care; 34 percent didn't cover substance abuse services, 18 percent didn't cover mental health services; and 9 percent didn't cover prescription drugs. There are also no annual caps and no lifetime limits under the ACA, which almost eliminates the risk of going bankrupt because of medical costs in a way that didn't exist before the law.

That's why experts have routinely said ( http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/one-big-problem-with-the-heritage-foun
dation-s-new-obamacare-study) that you can't make an "apples-to-apples" comparison between 2013 and 2014 insurance premiums, because the plans being offered now are much more robust.

And speaking of premiums, the numbers suggest that many of these people who might receive a cancelation letter will have access to the substantial financial help that Obamacare offers.

To be clear, nobody has done an analysis yet of what people who have received a cancelation notice are going to pay for coverage under the ACA. There's just no way to do that. But we can take a pretty educated guess by looking at the breakdown of the health insurance market provided by the Kaiser Family Foundation ( http://kff.org/state-category/health-coverage-uninsured/).

People making less than 400 percent of the federal poverty level qualify for either tax credits or expanded Medicaid (which, to be clear, has to cover the same set of 10 benefits that private plans have to cover). According to Kaiser, about 60 percent people in the individual insurance market (more than 10 million) have an income within that range, which leaves the other 40 percent (about 4.4 million) who don't and won't qualify for help.

So what the hell, anyone want to actually debate the FACTS? Or would our righties just like to keep on screaming about the few people who are losing their insurance BECAUSE THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES AREN'T OFFERING THOSE POLICIES ANYMORE?

If you want to get reeely nit-picky, you could say Obama never really "lied"...he said you could keep your health insurance, which you could, because of the grandfather clause. As long as the company offering it continued offering it. The fact that the insurance companies don't find it profitable to go on OFFERING those policies, and offered them only on a yearly basis so they could stop offering them any time they wanted, wasn't up to Obama. Sure, he knew what would probably happen, and yeah, it was politically-expedient omission, and wrong. But those are the FACTS. Let's debate 'em, I dare you.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 1:19 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


And by the way: ”Americans have waited 70 years for affordable healthcare, but if the website takes more than an hour, ‘F*ck it, I’m watching a cat video!’” -Bill Maher


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Friday, November 1, 2013 1:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Rubbish & blind propaganda.

" If you like it, you can keep it " was always a lie.

Nixon was impeached for FAR less.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, November 1, 2013 1:37 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I posted this at 1:18...Rap responded at 1:23...wanna bet he didn't read A WORD? I keep tellin' 'ya, HE'S...NOT...REAL. (Or at the very least, HE'S NOT FOR REAL)


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Friday, November 1, 2013 2:40 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...





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Friday, November 1, 2013 3:05 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Rubbish & blind propaganda.

" If you like it, you can keep it " was always a lie.

Nixon was impeached for FAR less.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall


Thanks for the daily dose of derangement.






"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, November 1, 2013 3:05 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I posted this at 1:18...Rap responded at 1:23...wanna bet he didn't read A WORD? I keep tellin' 'ya, HE'S...NOT...REAL. (Or at the very least, HE'S NOT FOR REAL)



He just keeps giving, and giving.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, November 1, 2013 3:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:


Niki, there is no proof that the shutdown cost us 24 billion, in fact quite the opposite. The weeks where income was lost is being made up for in the rush to normalize. That's right- we are being MORE productive than we would have been! So not only did the shutdown cost us nothing, it actually served as a kick in the economic pants! It worked! Unlike Obamanation, whose $224,000,000 website that he personally oversaw the creation of is doing. Every minute that thing costs the country countless jobs and lost taxes and faith in America. Yes, FACTS, Niki! LOOK at them. Understand them. You'll sleep better knowing that I am right.
Ted Cruise is my personal hero, and if you had a shred of decency or an ounce of pride in what America stands for as a nation of great possibilities and standards of the excellence in the best of the spirit of the founding father's honesty of character for the purpose of the noble causes for which it stands, one nation under NOT socialista nonsense like Obama and his stormtroopers tactics to destroy the planet on a planetary scale, he would be YOUR hero as well!
Fact, Niki. Just the facts, m'ame.*

*The preceding was not actually AURaptor, but an incredible simulation, eh?

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Friday, November 1, 2013 3:19 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hee, hee, hee...I am appropriately chastened, sirrah.

Rap:



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Friday, November 1, 2013 7:27 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I posted this at 1:18...Rap responded at 1:23...wanna bet he didn't read A WORD? I keep tellin' 'ya, HE'S...NOT...REAL. (Or at the very least, HE'S NOT FOR REAL)



He just keeps giving, and giving.


I bet fox pays him by the post

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, November 1, 2013 8:11 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I bet fox pays him by the post

Oh I doubt it, prolly something closer to this.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHelpingMe

-F

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Friday, November 1, 2013 8:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


700 Million dollar web site that doesn't work, vs a shut down Harry Reid and Barrack Hussein Obama caused, intentionally , because they can not STAND America.

Niki - You posted twice, before I even saw this thread. I'd heard this tripe before, and didn't NEED to read the fairy tale you cut / pasted.

I'm real. Too real, for you, apparently.

The OP reads like something from the Khmer Rouge, or early NAZI propaganda. Devoid of any facts, what so ever, and filled with the most delusional , disinformation for mass consumption, intent on mind control of a population that I've ever seen in my life.

This is beyond scary stuff. I'm not kidding either.


THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS !!!!


Obama lied.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:05 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nah, Nick, I can't believe even Fox would pay for such BAD efforts...

"Devoid of any facts, what so ever..."

"3 percent, to be precise..."
"About 80 percent of people..."
"Another 14 percent..."
"then you have 6 percent..."
"That leaves 3 percent..."
"34 percent didn't cover..."
"People making less than 400 percent..."
"about 60 percent..."
"more than 10 million..."
"the other 40 percent..."
"about 4.4 million..."
"breakdown of the health insurance market provided by the Kaiser Family Foundation..."

Nah. No facts there. No cites, nuthin'.

No, I can't imagine anyone actually PAYING Rap to do such a pathetic job...even the paid commenters FauxNews employs must do better. Certainly he's right up there with them in the ability to attack those with whom he disagrees, he's got that honed down, tho' shows so little imagination and never bothers to vary his methods, that it makes him pretty uninteresting, but I gotta believe even FauxNews' paid commenters do a better job than he does. Or maybe not; they probably don't pay much...and their audience is pretty stupid...




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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:21 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...











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Friday, November 1, 2013 10:38 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
700 Million dollar web site that doesn't work, vs a shut down Harry Reid and Barrack Hussein Obama caused, intentionally , because they can not STAND America.


Holy shit you live in a fantasy land.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/24/how-muc
h-did-healthcare-gov-cost/

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:




This.

Exactly this.
Ever since 1798.

-F

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 8:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
700 Million dollar web site that doesn't work, vs a shut down Harry Reid and Barrack Hussein Obama caused, intentionally , because they can not STAND America.


Holy shit you live in a fantasy land.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/24/how-muc
h-did-healthcare-gov-cost/

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.


It seems you're just guzzling the kool-aid the admin is putting out.

The exact cost to build Healthcare.gov and its related systems is difficult to determine due to the expansive nature of the project and the murky details in federal budgets. But based on the figures and details available, here is my best estimate of what this flawed system has cost us: The most clear data comes from a U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report from June (pdf), which states that the U.S. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) spent “almost $394 million from fiscal year 2010 through March 2013 through contracts” to build the “federally facilitated exchanges” (FFEs) – the complex system that includes Healthcare.gov as well as certain state-based exchanges – the data hub, and other expenditures related to the Obamacare exchange system.

While GAO states that the “highest volume” of that $394 million was related to the development of “information technology systems,” a more detailed look at that cost shows that a portion that $394 million was spent on things like call centers and collection services. Take that out, and you’re left with roughly $363 million spent on technology-related costs to the healthcare exchanges – the bulk of which ($88 million) went to CGI Federal, the company awarded a $93.7 million contract to build Healthcare.gov and other technology portions of the FFEs.

That’s already a hell of a lot of money, but that does not account for all costs accrued for this project. As the GAO states, the $392 million figure does “not include CMS salaries and other administrative costs” associated with the Obamacare exchanges. In other words, the actual cost for the development and implementation of the total Obamacare exchange system is far higher. We’ve reached out to CMS for an exact figure, but thanks to the government shutdown, we have yet to hear from them on this matter. However, we do know, according to CMS’s 2014 budget request (pdf), that agency spent more than $150 million in 2012 and 2013 in relation to the Affordable Care Act – a lowball figure considering that, in its 2013 budget request (pdf), the agency asked for more than $1 billion in additional funds “needed to support operation infrastructure” and open-enrollment preparations of the FFEs.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinion/obamacare-healthcare-gov-website-
cost/#ixzz2jURqUtif


YOUR world = $ 90 Million

The REAL world = $ 100's of Millions

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 8:44 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
700 Million dollar web site that doesn't work, vs a shut down Harry Reid and Barrack Hussein Obama caused, intentionally , because they can not STAND America.

It's closer to 4 billion. Maybe 10. And Obama tricked Cruz into shutting the government down; Cruz actually didn't want to. But Cruz is susceptible to magic, and Obama is a Full metal Alchemist. On the Dark Side. No racial pun intended.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Cruz didn't shut down anything. Obama did.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, you got it Chris, and $24 BILLION for less than a month to shut the government down for absolutely, positively NOTHING, is peanuts compared to some "hundreds of millions" over years to provide healthcare to millions. You betcha.






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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"Obama is a Full metal Alchemist"--actually, Chris, he's the Devil Incarnate, every good rabid right winger knows that!




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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Funny, Rap says it was Obama that shut down the government; Cruz says it was HIM:
Quote:
Texas Senator Ted Cruz says this month's partial government shutdown and his key role in it were a success. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477581/Pheasant-hunter-Ted-Cr
uz-says-government-shutdown-good-got-people-talking.html#ixzz2jUmlPhPy]

...then he went pheasant hunting.


"Cruz has received a lot of attention for trying to hunt down Obamacare but his tactics have failed to show a tangible result. Cruz, pictured hunting pheasants in Iowa, claims the government shutdown he helped engineer was a success"


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Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki, that was the writer's OPINION, not a direct quote from Cruz. He didn't shut down the govt. All he did was stand firm in his plan to defund and repeal O-Care, which is unquestionably a total and complete disaster.

The House did its constitutional obligation. Reid & Obama refused to sign the budget, thus shutting down the govt.

Case closed

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 10:11 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor: http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinion/obamacare-healthcare-gov-website-
cost/#ixzz2jURqUtif

YOUR world = $ 90 Million

The REAL world = $ 100's of Millions


I really like the fact that the article I posted links to yours an addresses the mistakes in the one you posted.

Nice try!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 10:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I've made no mistakes.

You're figures are looking at a narrow view of 'estimated' costs, while ignoring the whole cost of this train wreck.

Nice try!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 11:26 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I've made no mistakes.


You didn't, but the article you posted did.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Poor Rap. He'll just keep repeating THE LIE until he's blue in the face.

The Senate did its constitutional obligation. Cruz and his buddies refused to sign the budget unless the LAW OF THE LAND was defunded, which wouldn't have "killed" the ACA, merely made it an "unfunded mandate". Since no budget could be passed without them signing, that shut down the govt. Case closed.





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Saturday, November 2, 2013 2:44 PM

CHRISISALL


Niki, it's like this, the hijacked GOP now realizes the shutdown is frowned upon by most Americans, and any with common sense, so here's what they're gonna do:
1. Pin the shutdown on Obama at all costs. Keep repeating it in the hopes that the public is dimwitted enough to start buying it.
2. Once the public forgets all those nuts praising their shutdown and begin to believe that it really WAS all Obama's fault, they will inflate the 24 billion number to something like a trillion, and use it as more leverage against Obama.
3. As you see, they're already inflating the 90 million dollar cost of the crappy website, as I predicted.
Rappy is at the cutting edge of disinformation, one only needs to listen to him to find out the 'GOP's' plan, since he gets his news straight from the likes of Rush & Hannity.
Trouble is, with all this internet stuff, it's getting progressively harder to lie to the public, and get it to stick. Which, of course, prompts the internet controls the NeoCons want put into effect. It's all so predictable, this fascism thing. Heh heh.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 4:00 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:







This one's my favourite :-)

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 4:12 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


"Okay, here's the REALITY"

LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, ALL RWEDERS.....

HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THIS POST TITLE IF IT WERE YOUR PARENT OR A BABYSITTER WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP????


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Saturday, November 2, 2013 7:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
"Okay, here's the REALITY"

LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, ALL RWEDERS.....

HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THIS POST TITLE IF IT WERE YOUR PARENT OR A BABYSITTER WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP????

No differently.

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Saturday, November 2, 2013 7:52 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
"Okay, here's the REALITY"

LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, ALL RWEDERS.....

HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THIS POST TITLE IF IT WERE YOUR PARENT OR A BABYSITTER WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP????

WTF are you talking about?

And please, use all caps again because that just makes it all so much clearer.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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