REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Saturday, December 14, 2013 17:37
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1090
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, December 13, 2013 7:59 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

The Belgian Senate has voted in favour of extending its euthanasia law to terminally-ill children.

The Senate voted 50-17 in favour of the legislation, which is opposed by religious leaders in Belgium.

The bill seeks to allow children to ask for euthanasia if their illness is terminal, they are in great pain and there is no available treatment.

It will now go before the lower house of parliament, where correspondents say it is likely to be approved.

Belgium passed a law decriminalising euthanasia for terminally-ill people over the age of 18 in 2002.

The latest bill proposes to make Belgium the first country in the world to remove any age limit on the practice.

But it stipulates a number of caveats on euthanasia:

It says the patient must be conscious of their decision and understand the meaning of euthanasia
The request must have been approved by the child's parents and medical team
Their illness must be terminal
They must be in great pain, with no available treatment to alleviate their distress
In November, 16 paediatricians urged lawmakers in Belgium to approve the legislation in an open letter.

"Experience shows us that in cases of serious illness and imminent death, minors develop very quickly a great maturity, to the point where they are often better able to reflect and express themselves on life than healthy people," said their statement.

During the Senate debate, supporters of the bill said it would empower doctors and terminally-ill children to make a difficult decision.

"There is no age for suffering and, next to that, it's very important that we have a legal framework for the doctors who are confronted with this demand today and for the minors, for the capable minors, who are suffering today, and who I think should have the freedom to choose how they cope with their suffering," said Senator Jean-Jacques de Gucht, of the Open Flemish Liberals and Democrats.

But opponents in the Senate said children were not capable of making such a decision.

"We think that children don't understand the character of death, they don't understand the irreversibility of death," said Els Van Hoof of the Christian Democratic and Flemish party. "They are also influenced by authority, by their parents, by the medical team. So, to take a decision which is a huge decision about their death we don't think that they are capable of doing it."

In 2012, Belgium recorded 1,432 cases of euthanasia in 2012, up by 25% from 2011.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25364745

Not sure how I feel about this. Seems that some children, especially very young ones, wouldn't understand the gravity of such a decision.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 8:12 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Not sure how I feel about this. Seems that some children, especially very young ones, wouldn't understand the gravity of such a decision.



But then the first caveat would apply. Seems that circumstance has been thought of and given priority.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 8:52 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Too many damn Belgians already.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 8:59 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Not sure how I feel about this. Seems that some children, especially very young ones, wouldn't understand the gravity of such a decision.



But then the first caveat would apply. Seems that circumstance has been thought of and given priority.



"It says the patient must be conscious of their decision and understand the meaning of euthanasia"

But how do you determine whether a five-year-old actually understands the meaning of euthanasia, or is just agreeing with the grown-ups? Children can often be influenced by authority figures such as parents and doctors.

One would hope that there are many checks and decision points in this system when it comes to children.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 9:14 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

"It says the patient must be conscious of their decision and understand the meaning of euthanasia"

But how do you determine whether a five-year-old actually understands the meaning of euthanasia, or is just agreeing with the grown-ups? Children can often be influenced by authority figures such as parents and doctors.

One would hope that there are many checks and decision points in this system when it comes to children.



Considering children are defined in the context as anyone under 18, you're likely not looking at a majority of heartless parents and doctors just aching to put burdensome, terminally ill toddlers to sleep, but at a big range of ages where all involved are giving a whole deal of thought to their options.

A five-year-old probably can't comprehend this decision very well, and thus it's not applicable. But a 13-year-old who knows they won't live to see 15, knows that nothing is ahead but physical misery, deteriorating dignity, fading capacity for awareness of their own person? That's where this conversation is probably taking place.

It's not like Belgians are somehow significantly removed from the human condition, looking for opportunities to murder their dying children. These adults are probably not the ones bringing up the subject in the first place.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 9:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Too many damn Belgians already.



But their waffles are so yummy . :(

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 9:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

"It says the patient must be conscious of their decision and understand the meaning of euthanasia"

But how do you determine whether a five-year-old actually understands the meaning of euthanasia, or is just agreeing with the grown-ups? Children can often be influenced by authority figures such as parents and doctors.

One would hope that there are many checks and decision points in this system when it comes to children.



Considering children are defined in the context as anyone under 18, you're likely not looking at a majority of heartless parents and doctors just aching to put burdensome, terminally ill toddlers to sleep, but at a big range of ages where all involved are giving a whole deal of thought to their options.

A five-year-old probably can't comprehend this decision very well, and thus it's not applicable. But a 13-year-old who knows they won't live to see 15, knows that nothing is ahead but physical misery, deteriorating dignity, fading capacity for awareness of their own person? That's where this conversation is probably taking place.

It's not like Belgians are somehow significantly removed from the human condition, looking for opportunities to murder their dying children. These adults are probably not the ones bringing up the subject in the first place.



That's pretty much what I'm saying. Whoever is charged with making decisions based on this law will have to be very careful in their deliberations. Circumstances will have to be closely reviewed. I can see situations where the parents - out of concern for the continued suffering of their child - may push the child to accept euthanasia. And as much as I hate to say it, there may be some parents who think it's all just too much and just want to get out from under. The person, or board, or panel, who reviews these cases has a lot of responsibility.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 9:45 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
The person, or board, or panel, who reviews these cases has a lot of responsibility.



I guess we mostly agree. I just see much less impetus for abuse than you do, and I think the safeguards are well spelled out. The patient must understand the decision, the parents AND the medical team must approve. It's not just one person pulling the strings, it's a communal decision by everyone affected. I think it's a very good idea because it extends respect and power to people who may never live to reach that marker of 18 years but get to suffer at the same rate any adult would.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 13, 2013 2:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Too many damn Belgians already.



But their waffles are so yummy . :(



o.0

*Checks storage for stolen quirk*

I don't know what to think about this, but I think I'm sad either way.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:28 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It's not like Belgians are somehow significantly removed from the human condition, looking for opportunities to murder their dying children. These adults are probably not the ones bringing up the subject in the first place.



Oh but they're Europeans, AgentR. You know, with their socialised medicine and penchant for gulags.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


That's pretty much what I'm saying. Whoever is charged with making decisions based on this law will have to be very careful in their deliberations. Circumstances will have to be closely reviewed. I can see situations where the parents - out of concern for the continued suffering of their child - may push the child to accept euthanasia. And as much as I hate to say it, there may be some parents who think it's all just too much and just want to get out from under. The person, or board, or panel, who reviews these cases has a lot of responsibility.




In my experience, these decisions get made anyway by both doctors, families and patients, if they are in a fit state to make those decisions. At some stage in terminal illness, decisions have to be made about treatment and resuccitation. You actually have to make the decision that there will be no more treatment, other than pain management. And then the last stage, which is where pain management actually contributes to death, which is how most terminally ill patients go, mercifully assisted by the opiates that kill them.

And yes, in the end most relatives probably pray for death to happen to relieve suffering for their loved ones.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Wed, April 24, 2024 17:10 - 3556 posts
Elections; 2024
Wed, April 24, 2024 16:56 - 2299 posts
Grifter Donald Trump Has Been Indicted And Yes Arrested; Four Times Now And Counting. Hey Jack, I Was Right
Wed, April 24, 2024 09:04 - 804 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Wed, April 24, 2024 08:57 - 6296 posts
Case against Sidney Powell, 2020 case lawyer, is dismissed
Wed, April 24, 2024 07:50 - 11 posts
Scientific American Claims It Is "Misinformation" That There Are Just Two Sexes
Tue, April 23, 2024 22:56 - 1 posts
Slate: I Changed My Mind About Kids and Phones. I Hope Everyone Else Does, Too.
Tue, April 23, 2024 19:38 - 2 posts
No Thread On Topic, More Than 17 Days After Hamas Terrorists Invade, Slaughter Innocent Israelis?
Tue, April 23, 2024 19:19 - 26 posts
Pardon Me? Michael Avenatti Flips, Willing To Testify On Trump's Behalf
Tue, April 23, 2024 19:01 - 9 posts
FACTS
Mon, April 22, 2024 20:10 - 552 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Mon, April 22, 2024 17:47 - 1010 posts
I agree with everything you said, but don't tell anyone I said that
Mon, April 22, 2024 16:15 - 16 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL