REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 19:58
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Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


6IX- Rappy wants us to think that he's just like the rest of us, but the reality is, he got his money the old-fashioned way: he inherited it. Rappy is full of bull. We all know that, so pay him no mind.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:46 PM

MAL4PREZ


What will it take till you believe in me?
The way that I believe in you....

Can this thread just die so I can quit having this stuck in my head? Please? It's killing me!

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I still want an answer from NIKI and an answer from RAPPY. I've asked each of them... oh, about 7 times by now. Maybe more. I would LOVE to get to the bottom of their beliefs, understand the nub from which everything else springs. Like a lot of things, it prolly has to do with a personal experience. Our most enduring lessons are the ones most deeply felt.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
6IX- Rappy wants us to think that he's just like the rest of us, but the reality is, he got his money the old-fashioned way: he inherited it. Rappy is full of bull. We all know that, so pay him no mind.



It's funny to read what you " know " about me. Very entertaining.

And if you could nail down the question one more time, I'll give it a go.

Quote:

their beliefs, understand the nub from which everything else springs. Like a lot of things, it prolly has to do with a personal experience. Our most enduring lessons are the ones most deeply felt.


seems a bit vague. Tidy it up a bit, please ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It's only been repeated several times.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:40 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's only been repeated several times.



What will it take till you believe in me...

What will it take till you believe in me...

What will it take till you believe in me...

What will it take till you believe in me...

Yes it has!

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 2:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It's only been repeated several times.



And the time you spent posting that could have been used to ask again, in a simple, straight forward manner.

Oh well.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Here, I'll quote myself, quoting myself.
Quote:

ALSO RAPPY
Quote:

Well, since you suggested that we should be like the old west (as you saw it), where people lived and died by their own efforts and luck... not much money, no insured banks, little law, no roads. and no industry ... I thought you were making a broad-brush "get rid of government" proposal. If not, in what areas do you think a government SHOULD interfere? And why?


You have the chance to explain what YOU think is a "decent society". The floor is yours! But yanno, if you refuse this opportunity to discuss your viewpoint, you will be cementing your reputation as a lightweight coward. So, grab the bull! Carpe diem!


I have actually copy-pasted this question three (or more) times by now, and asked the same question with alternate wording a few more times. How can you be so clueless? I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Well, you started with a * false premise, as to what I meant and what I said. I replied, stating clearly that i had said no such thing as you claim I had, and just left it at that. As you continue to work your " question " from an imaginary position , which doesn't belong to me, though you seem to think it does, I feel no need to " play along ".

Feel free to admend your question, or not.


*
Quote:

Quote:


Well, since you suggested that we should be like the old west
- Siggy



Nope. I never said nor implied any such thing.

Swing, miss. And quite frankly, if you can't get THAT right, then why should I even bother ?



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, December 30, 2013 12:04 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.






As evidence of "rape mentality"

Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is
whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies

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Monday, December 30, 2013 12:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Swing, miss. And quite frankly, if you can't get THAT right, then why should I even bother ? ... Well, you started with a * false premise, as to what I meant and what I said. ...I feel no need to " play along ".... Feel free to admend [sic] your question, or not.
Because I already amended my question. I asked you to correct and expand on that point. Since you say that I don't understand you, I'm waiting for you to tell me where and how I'm wrong. The floor is, literally, yours. My ears are open. All I want to do is question you specifically on certain points you might bring up, to make sure that I DO understand what you're saying... and possibly grasp your essential assumptions.

You're not "refusing to play along", you're simply refusing to explain your views. Yanno, bailing from a discussion. Maybe because you know you WILL be understood. What else am I to think?

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Monday, December 30, 2013 12:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


So, you're politely asking for the world according to ... moi ?


You can't open the book of my life and jump in the middle.






Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, December 30, 2013 12:45 PM

BYTEMITE


If I reinterpret this whole argument as being about the benefits of men wearing dresses, it suddenly makes more sense. As well as being distilled and concentrated comedic genius.

My keen insight tells me that this, or a variation of such, re: the non-necessity of pants, may possibly work for any argument.

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Monday, December 30, 2013 12:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You can't open the book of my life and jump in the middle.
Nope, I can't. Nobody can. But YOU can provide an intro and an explanation. In fact, the ONLY person who can do that is you. And unless you do, everyone else will misunderstand you. I can't promise that people will like you or agree with you more, but yanno what? Most people here already despise the "you" that they've seen so far. How can it possibly get worse?

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 7:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Thanks for your reply. It was informative.

I do sometimes wonder, what will it take for people to say 'enough!' Or will we be like the Easter Islanders - clinging to our ways even as we fall off the edge of survival.


Oh I think we're prettymuch fucked, if for not other reason than that we are too NICE, too forgiving, which is what enables these scum in the first goddamn place.
Imagine if the big banksters which screwed our economy, and the politicians which enabled and protected em, started winding up in back alleys with their throats slit - now THAT would be a game changer, wouldn't it now ?
REAL consequences, ones they couldn't just buy their way out of, would be miles beyond the petty wrist slap bullshit so far, especially when the fines and penalties are so much of a pittance of the profit they made that the only message recieved is that crime really does pay if you scale it large enough...
But a few skinned, mutilated, obviously-tortured banksters showing up in a storm drain, well, then there'd be some kind of incentive to maybe *NOT* fuck the world into financial implosion for their own benefit, yes ?


Oh, and Siggy, the *reason* no one else has offered you an answer, is that none of em HAVE an answer, beyond knuckling under, bending over and handing back the vaseline again...
And none of em LIKE my answer, cause it's too awful for their tender sensibilities, which mean NOTHING to me when I am point blank WATCHING people starve, freeze and die, right here, right now.

Case in point, some hoity-toity management company bought out the three nearest apartment complexes and then pitched out all the section eight residents just as their unemployment and SNAP benefits got cut to free up more corporate fuckin welfare, and those hungry, angry, desperate people right across the street from the complex *I* am charged with protecting are the poor bastards I am playing goalie against, knowing that I am more or less murdering them in the process...

So how much sympathy do you think I *have* right now for the Randroid scum who've brought it to this pass while they live high on the hog and laugh at the slaughter ?
Yeah, well, keep on laughin, cause we got news for you, fuckers, and it's only a matter of time.


FYI, my personal philosophical and religious beliefs hold no prohibition against cannibalism, and I would oh so totally eat you and wash you down with cheap rum, grinning all the while.

-Frem

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 8:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Most people here already despise the "you" that they've seen so far. How can it possibly get worse?



Then that's a THEM problem, and does not concern me.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


RAPPY, the entire conversation edited for brevity:

Quote:

You didn't build that! - Implies that all the effort you put forth wasn't of YOUR doing, but in reality, was a product of " The Collective ". With that sort of outlook on life, the West would have never been explored or tamed. The frontier may have never exceeded past the Mississippi valley. America would not be America were it not for far sighted, free thinking INDIVIDUALS. -rappy


[So] As far as YOU'RE concerned, the government should get out of money-printing business. Get out of the business of protecting copyrights and patents. Stop negotiating international trade deals. Stop insuring banks or maintaining roads or educating the workers of tomorrow or investing in blue-sky research. Should have never "subdued" the Natives, or toppled reformist governments elsewhere. In other words, allow EVERYONE the ability of make it on their own, without government interference. Correct?-signy



Waiting for an answer from rappy, proposer of "individual hard work" and government non-interference. -signy


As far as YOU'RE concerned, the government should get out of money-printing business. Get out of the business of protecting copyrights and patents. Stop negotiating international trade deals. Stop insuring banks or maintaining roads or educating the workers of tomorrow or investing in blue-sky research. Should have never "subdued" the Natives, or toppled reformist governments elsewhere. In other words, allow EVERYONE the ability of make it on their own, without government interference. Correct?- signy

Nope. But keep telling other people what THEY believe, because that's all you frelling want to hear anyways.-rappy

Well, since you suggested that we should be like the old west (as you saw it), where people lived and died by their own efforts and luck... not much money, no insured banks, little law, no roads. and no industry ... I thought you were making a broad-brush "get rid of government" proposal. If not, in what areas do you think a government SHOULD interfere? And why? (Gets in car to run errands and some popcorn, will be back later.) -signy

Nope. I never said nor implied any such thing. Swing, miss. And quite frankly, if you can't get THAT right, then why should I even bother ?- rappy


You have the chance to explain what YOU think is a "decent society". The floor is yours! But yanno, if you refuse this opportunity to discuss your viewpoint, you will be cementing your reputation as a lightweight coward. So, grab the bull! Carpe diem! -signy


Hmmm... and yet, you're still evading my question. I'll make deal with you: If you engage in honest and on-point discussion of my question, I'll engage in honest and on-point discussion about your chart. Of course, I get to decide whether you're being honest and on-point enough. -signy


seems a bit vague. Tidy it up a bit, please ? -rappy

Here, I'll quote myself, quoting myself.
Quote:

Well, since you suggested that we should be like the old west (as you saw it), where people lived and died by their own efforts and luck... not much money, no insured banks, little law, no roads. and no industry ... I thought you were making a broad-brush "get rid of government" proposal. If not, in what areas do you think a government SHOULD interfere? And why?


You have the chance to explain what YOU think is a "decent society". The floor is yours! But yanno, if you refuse this opportunity to discuss your viewpoint, you will be cementing your reputation as a lightweight coward. So, grab the bull! Carpe diem!




I have actually copy-pasted this question three (or more) times by now, and asked the same question with alternate wording a few more times. signy

Well, you started with a false premise, as to what I meant and what I said. I replied, stating clearly that i had said no such thing as you claim I had, and just left it at that. As you continue to work your " question " from an imaginary position , which doesn't belong to me, though you seem to think it does, I feel no need to " play along ". -rappy

Because I already amended my question. I asked you to correct and expand on that point. Since you say that I don't understand you, I'm waiting for you to tell me where and how I'm wrong. The floor is, literally, yours. My ears are open. All I want to do is question you specifically on certain points you might bring up, to make sure that I DO understand what you're saying... and possibly grasp your essential assumptions. You're not "refusing to play along", you're simply refusing to explain your views. Yanno, bailing from a discussion. Maybe because you know you WILL be understood. What else am I to think?=signy


So, you're politely asking for the world according to ... moi ?You can't open the book of my life and jump in the middle. -rappy

Nope, I can't. Nobody can. But YOU can provide an intro and an explanation. In fact, the ONLY person who can do that is you. And unless you do, everyone else will misunderstand you. I can't promise that people will like you or agree with you more, but yanno what? Most people here already despise the "you" that they've seen so far. How can it possibly get worse?-signy

Then that's a THEM problem, and does not concern me.-rappy



In it, you made a statement. I've asked you to clarify/ correct/ expand on your point about ten times. You asked me to repeat the question. I did. And at every step of the way, I repeatedly asked you to correct or clarify my understanding But you feel that you have no need to explain what you mean? Well, then, why are you here? To be a PN? To rile people up? You're surely not convincing anyone of your viewpoint, especially taking the tack of "not responding on-point". So the only thing that every reader of your posts can conclude is that you're a troll, or you don't even know WHY you say certain things, or even what you're saying. Give us a sign that you ARE able to engage in adult conversation. I've promised to provide you with a fair hearing and pointed, but not snide, questions. I'd hope that THIS thread would be the thread where, finally, we get to see the real rappy- how he thinks, what he believes, and why.

If THIS is the real rappy... the big blank space in-between talking points... then I hope that you don't expect people to engage with you person-to-person, since you won't do the same. You'll just continue to be used as target practice. I'm hoping to get on to another dynamic.

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 6:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


First, drawing false conclusions from things I said is a real tough way to progress through a discussion.

Second, I'm pretty sure, though it's been a long time since, that I've posted my "philosophy " on this forum already. I seem to recall commenting on facing reality, the age of the Earth, freedom, independence, and a general Libertarian POV, of life here in the US as well as the idea of ownership of one's own life in general.

Any of that ring a bell ?


Third. It's new year's eve. I may or may not be of sound mind tomorrow, but as for now, I'm out of here.

Happy New Year, y'all !



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 6:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

First, drawing false conclusions from things I said is a real tough way to progress through a discussion.
And I have repeatedly... for something like the 11th time now... asked you to correct my understanding and clarify your thoughts.

But yanno... refusing to be the other half of a conversation? That's an even tougher way to progress thru discussion.

Clearly, you're not at all interested in a conversation. I'll hold my tongue in this thread, but elsewhere, just expect what you got last year.... and the year before that... and the year before that. If anything.

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 9:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


See, it gets hard to navigate with you when I say this...

You didn't build that! - Implies that all the effort you put forth wasn't of YOUR doing, but in reality, was a product of " The Collective ". With that sort of outlook on life, the West would have never been explored or tamed. The frontier may have never exceeded past the Mississippi valley. America would not be America were it not for far sighted, free thinking INDIVIDUALS. -rappy

And you come back with...


[So] As far as YOU'RE concerned, the government should get out of money-printing business. Get out of the business of protecting copyrights and patents. Stop negotiating international trade deals. Stop insuring banks or maintaining roads or educating the workers of tomorrow or investing in blue-sky research. Should have never "subdued" the Natives, or toppled reformist governments elsewhere. In other words, allow EVERYONE the ability of make it on their own, without government interference. Correct?-signy


No, NOT correct. You're tossing out a boat load of non-related issues, in such a scattered spread manner, where do I begin ? " Stop insuring banks and maintaining roads" ?? wtf ? I'm not talking NO govt, just small, reasonable, and well defined areas of responsibility. Stop wasting our $, for starters. That goes from all expense paid " conferences " in Vegas for govt employees, snow cone machines to help fight terrorism, and building airports in the middle of S. West Bumble Pennsylvania, just to honor a sitting congressman and shovel pork into his district.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 5:00 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Bollocks. That is EXACTLY the province of governments. "Free trade" only comes into play when governments decide to create and sign "free trade" agreements; otherwise tariffs, import duties, and tax policies come into play. Please don't believe that ministers and presidents are helplessly wringing their hands about processes that are out of the control of governments... they are actively fostering these processes at your expense, because that's where their money is.



Ahem. And to you as well.

I do believe there are global forces at play which are outside of government control. It doesn't mean that they can't have a response to the forces, and can't contribute to them, but I see them trying to play catch up, or ignoring those forces, depending on the current dominant idealogy. Climate change is one of those examples.

Unlike a lot of you on these boards, I don't see government as this big all powerful force that has complete control over their lives. I see them more as a bunch of chickens struggling to build their own henhouse.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 11:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I do believe there are global forces at play which are outside of government control.
The government has fostered every single aspect of these "forces" since their inception: the creation and backing of currencies (sometimes by military force), the laws which govern corporations and profit, the development and backing of national and international banks and bank policies, the militarily-enforced inclusion of many nations into the capitalist hegemony, and the inking of free-trade agreements. Governments have been necessary, instrumental, or complicit is all aspects of the clusterfuck under which we now live. None of this would have been possible without them.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 11:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So rappy, your objection to government is that it holds too many meetings and wastes money on pork?

Don't you have something more fundamental to object to?

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 1:40 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Unlike a lot of you on these boards, I don't see government as this big all powerful force that has complete control over their lives. I see them more as a bunch of chickens struggling to build their own henhouse.


...Sort of. Yes, they're all idiots, but the analogy would hold truer if some were more fox-like and cannibalistic than the others, and instead of a henhouse, it's a machine that makes chicken pot pies.

We can call the more fox-like ones "corporate lobbyists" "military contractors" "intelligence agencies" and "politicians." And they're basically out to better themselves at the cost of the normal non-predatory chickens they're feeding into that machine.

But the predators aren't safe from each other, either, so they try to dismantle whatever the other chickens are working on while building up their own pieces.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 5:17 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Unlike a lot of you on these boards, I don't see government as this big all powerful force that has complete control over their lives. I see them more as a bunch of chickens struggling to build their own henhouse.


...Sort of. Yes, they're all idiots, but the analogy would hold truer if some were more fox-like and cannibalistic than the others, and instead of a henhouse, it's a machine that makes chicken pot pies.

We can call the more fox-like ones "corporate lobbyists" "military contractors" "intelligence agencies" and "politicians." And they're basically out to better themselves at the cost of the normal non-predatory chickens they're feeding into that machine.

But the predators aren't safe from each other, either, so they try to dismantle whatever the other chickens are working on while building up their own pieces.



Very true. Mostly they are concerned with feathering their own nest and some are more wiley than others, but mainly they are just clucking around incompetently shitting everywhere and getting very little useful done.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 5:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Unlike a lot of you on these boards, I don't see government as this big all powerful force that has complete control over their lives. I see them more as a bunch of chickens struggling to build their own henhouse.


...Sort of. Yes, they're all idiots, but the analogy would hold truer if some were more fox-like and cannibalistic than the others, and instead of a henhouse, it's a machine that makes chicken pot pies.

We can call the more fox-like ones "corporate lobbyists" "military contractors" "intelligence agencies" and "politicians." And they're basically out to better themselves at the cost of the normal non-predatory chickens they're feeding into that machine.

But the predators aren't safe from each other, either, so they try to dismantle whatever the other chickens are working on while building up their own pieces.





Ooompa Loompa's....

Who would ever suspect a 3 foot tall orange faced man of being shady?

Wow, in the real RWED, that really is kinda scary, huh?


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Thursday, January 2, 2014 5:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The government has fostered every single aspect of these "forces" since their inception: the creation and backing of currencies (sometimes by military force), the laws which govern corporations and profit, the development and backing of national and international banks and bank policies, the militarily-enforced inclusion of many nations into the capitalist hegemony, and the inking of free-trade agreements. Governments have been necessary, instrumental, or complicit is all aspects of the clusterfuck under which we now live. None of this would have been possible without them.



I think you give government more kudos than I do. They are not as united, cohesive or strategic as you give them credit for. Individuals and collections of individuals have power for a while and they may have certain agendas they want to see played out, but mostly they are reactive and compromosing.

Some of the forces that have not been generated by governments. Some of these are intrinsically connected.

The industrial revolution
The technological revolution
Global urbanisation
Population increase - 1.6 billion in 1900 to 7 billion currently
Climate change
Waining of influence of religion
Growth of individualism

Even the GFC, which was at least partly a result of shitty policies, wasn't planned by governments, its more a sign of how they bumble around ineffectually. I still think my chickens trying to build a hen house is the best analogy.



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Friday, January 3, 2014 10:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Magons, I don't think that governments have a 400-year secret plan to foster worldwide corporatism. What I think is that governments (usually) are an unconscious evolutionary force which has become adapted to the presence of concentrated money, and that over time business and government have formed a symbiotic relationship.

However, since government makes the rules and government has the guns, government COULD behave in a non-symbiotic way. In fact, it sometimes does, as when a government replaces an old currency with a new one, or sweeps away the old rules of doing business. In other words, when revolutions occur.

There are a couple of aspects to this process which I think needs thoughtful examination. The first is to recognize where governments have specifically granted business more rights than citizens with the development of things like "intellectual property", the treatment of corporations with favorable tax laws, the pushing of (unlabeled) GMOs (because government has decided that it's safe and you therefore have no reason to know what you're eating), the bank bailout, the murky laws which allowed the crisis to begin with, the "ag gag" laws, the involuntary "taking" of a person's property for fracking, the rules against demonstrating on public property, ...etc. I'm sure that if we were to catalog how hamstrung the average person is before the combined might of business and government, we could develop a very long, scary list worthy of a dissertation which details exactly HOW FUCKED we really are.


The second part of this is to realize that this is all "evolutionary" behavior on the part of business and government. As a follow-on to that, we should realize that "evolution" is NOT the paradigm that human beings should be following. The concept that if we let various entities fight it out over long periods of time we will eventually reach some sort of nirvana. I think only people who have never REALLY looked at nature feel this way. Nature is wasteful. Evolution leads to the development of species which carry within them the seeds of their own destruction (the horned creature whose horns would, by age 9, grow into its own skull, for example), or which are "just good enough" to continue surviving in their niche by having a dozen... or several hundred-thousand... babies, 99% of which will die.

If we are going to develop our societies AND our species into something other than the clusterfuck we now have, we have to do this consciously, bc our unconscious floundering/reaction has gotten us to results that suck.

So, believe it or not, this is in response to
Quote:

What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society?
. I would like to open up the discussion to include a lot wider set of parameters to consider.

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Friday, January 3, 2014 1:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You might want to consider, among other things, how often government comes down violently on the side of the wealthy

Cambodian protesters killed as police crack down on garment workers' rally
Quote:

At least three people have been killed in the Cambodian capital, Phnom Penh, after security forces opened fire on garment workers rallying for higher wages, according to eyewitnesses.

http://rt.com/news/cambodia-garment-protest-dead-112/

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/26-0
Quote:

The government of Bangladesh has deployed paramilitary forces to the industrial zone of Gazipur in its latest bid to quell the massive protests and strikes that have swept the second largest garment industry in the world over the last week.
Bangladesh's government, known for its cozy relationship with the country's notoriously low-paying and dangerous garment industry backed by numerous U.S.-based corporations, has held a series of meetings with factory owners and vowed to take more harsh measures to shut down the uprisings.



Saudi Crackdown on Workers Turns Violent
Quote:

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia—The government pushed ahead with a nationwide crackdown on undocumented foreign laborers in an effort to overhaul the labor market, sparking deadly clashes between Saudis and foreign workers here on Sunday.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303309504579188832
147386314


Police crackdown triggers anti-government riots
Quote:

Istanbul, Turkey (CNN) -- After battling for nearly two days with tear gas, water cannons and pepper spray, Turkish police retreated from Istanbul's central Taksim Square on Saturday afternoon, allowing tens of thousands of demonstrators to pour into the space.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/01/world/europe/turkey-protests/

State of Siege: Mining Conflict Escalates in Guatemala
Quote:

Fifty miles southeast of the capital, private security guards working for Vancouver-based mining firm Tahoe Resources shot and wounded several local residents on Saturday in San Rafael Las Flores, on the road in front of Tahoe’s El Escobal silver mine. The mining company’s head of security was arrested while attempting to flee the country. A police officer and a campesino were killed during conflicts earlier this week. Through it all, demonstrations against the mining project have continued amid conflicting reports and government misinformation.

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/guatemala-archives-33/4270-state-of-si
ege-mining-conflict-escalates-in-guatemala


A robust coordinated response is the only way to end this brutalization.




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Friday, January 3, 2014 4:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You might want to consider, among other things, how often government comes down violently on the side of the wealthy...


Yah, like every single goddamn time - remember, I had ancestors at Blair Mountain.
Quote:

that over time business and government have formed a symbiotic relationship.

Formed ?
Ahem.



Worth recalling I see essentially no difference between most Corps, Governments, and Mafias - same damn thing to me, end of the day.

-Frem

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Friday, January 3, 2014 4:39 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Signy, I think we are pretty much in agreement.

I think someone said something on another thread or this one, they start to get blurred, it could have been you even. The problem is that there is no limit to power of corporations. I actually think your FF were spot on when they tried to take steps for the devolution of power but they only foresaw government power, not business power. Kind of blind of them really, given how much money and power the landed gentry had in Great Britain, which even then translated into political power. Or perhaps that came a little later?


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Saturday, January 4, 2014 2:05 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Not so much blind as it was deliberate, at least on behalf of Hamilton, cause that was sort of his plan from day one.

-F

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Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I gave you just a few recent examples of where governments stepped in on behalf the wealthy few to smash the many poor. And the point is that governments aren't "helpless" in the face of abuse of economic power, or helpless in the face of forces like population (over)growth and automation, they are complicit.

BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE.

IF WE ARE TO SURVIVE AS A SPECIES, we have to stop thinking that evolution will lead us out of our misery. We need to start taking a conscious, pro-active stance on where and how we will develop, as a society.

Turn power over to women? Adjust our sex ratio to be 90% female? REALLY push for birth control? Localize production again, so that it will be more robust to catastrophe? None of this is in the direction we're heading, but hey... the direction we're heading is off a cliff. Maybe we need to try something different.

So, to answer the question What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society? I guess we can ask What is our response to these abuses of power?

Here's one:

BOYCOTT BOTTLED WATER.

ANY KIND.

Water-bottlers are stealing clean water from populations who need it more. Yeah, I know... small steps. Baby steps. Start with that. Nestle will be pissed. It should be.

THINK OF MORE.



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Sunday, January 5, 2014 2:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Now I'm going to get a little snarky, and not about the right wing (who everyone knows are just a bunch of tools) but about liberals. Because it seems that liberals are capable of asking the question What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society?. But when presented with specific examples of HOW our indecent society is being forced on us at gunpoint, appear to have no answers at all.

That's the difference between liberals and leftists.


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 2:31 PM

BYTEMITE


I'm guessing, based on my own reaction, that the collective we were silent not because we don't have our own thoughts on the issue, but because your proposals just made things super awkward and we were trying to bite our tongue for your sake. But I stop biting my tongue the moment I'm provoked.

All of us have discussed what we think needs to be changed to make society not a parasitic blood sucking cancer on the face of humanity to death. Literally, we are taking terminal diagnosis all around.

So don't shame us or talk like you're better than the rest of us. Either you know exactly what all of us think and would recommend and can probably describe our particular positions without any input from us by now, or you haven't been listening.

Talk is cheap. And frankly, talking about how each of us plans to change things is a good way to give the enemy intelligence on how to stop us. Forgive me for declining your kindly worded encouragement.

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Sunday, January 5, 2014 2:35 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Talk is cheap. And frankly, talking about how each of us plans to change things is a good way to give the enemy intelligence on how to stop us. Forgive me for declining your kindly worded encouragement.



Honestly Byte... Haken IS Big Brother.

Everything we have posted here over the years has been thoroughly considered by the Republic every step of the way for the last 12 years at least.

If you believe in Haken, I have some real estate on the North Pole you might be interested in. Comes with a sleigh and some shiny reindeer. One of them even has a bright red nose.


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 2:41 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Honestly Byte... Haken IS Big Brother.

Everything we have posted here over the years has been thoroughly considered by the Republic every step of the way for the last 12 years at least.

If you believe in Haken, I have some real estate on the North Pole you might be interested in. Comes with a sleigh and some shiny reindeer. One of them even has a bright red nose.



Jack:

Please start making sense.

Love and hugs,

Everyone.

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Sunday, January 5, 2014 2:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BOYCOTT BOTTLED WATER.

ANY KIND.

Water-bottlers are stealing clean water from populations who need it more. Yeah, I know... small steps. Baby steps. Start with that. Nestle will be pissed. It should be.

THINK OF MORE.



Fuck Nestle. I got your back here Signy.

I always say that anyone who buys Lotto tickets or otherwise gambles with money they need is just willingly paying a "STUPID TAX". That doesn't even come CLOSE to the UBER-STUPID tax that people pay for bottled water. If you live in Crook County, IL, you also pay a "10 cent per bottle deposit tax", but the funny thing is, you can't redeem that anywhere by giving those bottles back. They CALL it a DEPOSIT tax, but when you buy a 24 pack of bottled water you pay an extra $2.40 tax that you CAN NEVER GET BACK!!!!

Bottled water in America, unless you drink from a well and shit in a septic tank is not only superfluous, it is utterly asinine.

Yeah.... Let's pay a Multinational corporation that employs 90% of its workers out of the US to provide us with water that doesn't in many occasions even meet the US standards for filtering and bottling.....

Fucking idiots.....


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 2:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jack:

Please start making sense.

Love and hugs,

Everyone.



Love you too Byte....


I assure you that when you open your mind to it all that it will be crystal clear.

I apologize for not painting a MUCH clearer picture for you... I am hindered by my modest upbringing and my inability to make my own creative works to perfectly describe things to you and to others. I must rely only on works others have made to kind of "get the gist" across.....

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I wish I could make my own pictures that perfectly captured those thousand words, rather relying on somebody elses' pictures that paint only 850 of them, as well as 150 more that are either superfluous or talk about things I don't agree with.......


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:26 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, I understood you. The problem is what you said, as I explained, didn't make sense.

And it's not an narrow thinking thing, so choke down the smugness for a second. I'm paranoid, probably more paranoid than you are, but I can also think rationally.

Haken is not deleting people's posts (which was a ridiculous assumption for you to make in the first place) and Haken is not Big Brother beyond that the internet itself is a permanent recording of what we say.

As ever, you place far too much importance upon whatever a bunch of people on an obscure internet message board might have to say. You have to understand how Big Brother actually searches for targets.

The first way is the direct way - you have to piss some bigwig off. And when you piss them off, it's obvious, because it feels like a giant boot stomping down on your face. The site gets pulled and all the usual money sources like paypal suddenly refuse to transfer your funds. That's what happened with Julian Assange, even though he's a jackass.

I'm sure they sent monitors here and there to Fireflyfans in the early and post movie years, but nothing happened and nothing we did really alarmed them. Because honestly, most sci-fi fans couldn't fight their way outta a paper bag. If we were really dangerous, the site would be long gone.

The second way is indirectly. They have web spiders that basically run a find on thousands of pages a minute looking for certain keywords. Then someone has to check the false positives. It's slow and inconvenient and doesn't work worth beans.

In short, the reason we're still here talking on this site is because they looked at it and then decided we're harmless.

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Sunday, January 5, 2014 6:23 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


You "Understood" me, for sure Byte. For all "that" means.....

I'm not joking about my philosophy. And I wasn't joking about other people's pictures painting a better picture for me even if it's only 850 of those words I agree with....

I don't doubt you're paranoid. I know paranoid. I'm supposedly "cured" of that affliction now simply because that's what I tell people. I haven't seen a shrink or social worker for nearly 20 years.....

My opinion is that Haken doesn't, and has never existed......


As for the rest of what you said, I'll just say this.....

Maybe you SHOULD have thought more about yourself than you ever gave yourself credit for.

Of course, who gives a shit about one single post on a board?????

At the same time, how many boards have you EVER been a part of that let you say whatever you wanted to say nearly all of th time?

Take a further step back and realize that except for the ridiculously LOW posts/threads, nothing here has EVER been censored in any other means. Hell even those "BAD" posts are still visible to KANEMAN in Troll Country.............

AND, AS FAR AS I KNOW, NONE OF MY THREADS/POSTS HAVE EVER ENDED UP THERE~~~~~

Freedom comes at a price, oh paranoid one....

Alone, none of us are important.....

Something all brought us here.... A beautiful show that should have lived on for a decade and was cancelled in one year. Some of ya'all were here nearly 5 years before I showed up, even though I consider myself "old".....

Haken is "Emmanuel Goldstein".

There is no difference between a "5 minute hate" or a "5 minute love" for a fictional character.



I was going to go on, likely forever, but I figured that might be the most poignant "point" I could leave it on.....


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 6:43 PM

BYTEMITE


He lives in Hawaii.

By your logic, I live in Indiana. :P

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Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:01 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


He lives in Hawaii, with Elvis and Tupac.....

I've always been a Beatles guy, so I can take or leave Elvis, but I'd praise "Suspicious Minds".....




Tupac though.... the list goes on and on....

He never once would perform a song like that....



Not his most PC moment, but I could think of worse places to be now....


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:27 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Now I'm going to get a little snarky, and not about the right wing (who everyone knows are just a bunch of tools) but about liberals. Because it seems that liberals are capable of asking the question What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society?. But when presented with specific examples of HOW our indecent society is being forced on us at gunpoint, appear to have no answers at all.

That's the difference between liberals and leftists.



I think people have posted stuff over the years that have answered this question, but maybe the silence is due to feeling powerless more than anything else.

You can find solutions at a micro and macro level.

Micro is what YOU do as an individual, how you live your life, the choices you make, how you treat others, the concern you show and demonstrate for the environment and for you fellow humans. You can choose to be an example of a decent human being.

On a macro level, how do you influence others to think about making similar choices? In the age of social media, its easier than its ever been, but it also means you're competing against a clamour of different voices, who may be more expert and more resourced to influence *coughrupertmurdochcough*, But still its possible to run global media campaigns from your personal laptop. Easier still - share ideas that someone else has already put out there, like the TED talks and RSA Animate, blogs et al. After all, from small ideas and gestures, action happens.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks

http://thenagain.info/webchron/India/SaltMarch.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution












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Sunday, January 5, 2014 8:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Or Trent, back when I was 10 7ears old and he was just a wizards' apprentice, and not the beastman he turned into when he gave up all the drugs except cigarettes and a liberal daily dose of coffee....









Seriously dude, why don't any of my youtube videos post here? Am I on some sort of watch list?



Good for me. I've never been more than 250 miles away from the very spot I'm squatting now in my life and I'm on some sort of "no fly" list on the internet.

F.U. Internet

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Sunday, January 5, 2014 8:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


That song was "Ring Finger". A "B" side most of you would never recognize....

You've likely all heard "Head Like a Hole" though now though. I'm quite sure it was used to describe GWB and the Rethugs during his reign...



Here's the link, paste it and copy it if fff doesn't want to show it and leaves it blank like when i look at the posts.....


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 8:27 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


The younger of us might recognize this one. I know it was a hate party on GWB, and I was happy to dance to it at the time. The grass is always greener......




EDITED: Post hard core drugs diet and a new high protien diet to compliment the cigs and smokes to make it day to day in the mean time. Seriously. Aside from Robert DeNiro, he's the only guy other than me who changed their entire existence by gaining more than 50lbs in the right places.

"Batman" did it much better, but that dude is seriously as sick as his American Psycho character. Nobody can get THAT skinny for a role after playing a sexy young muscular playboy......

Takes one to know one, I guess....


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Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:12 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Jack - gotta say - if you want to do good things for your niece - aside from being a negative example about how fucked-up being a narcissistic alcoholic is - you gotta get off the booze, AND any drugs you're hankering for.

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Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:25 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"...maybe the silence is due to feeling powerless more than anything else ..."

It is for me. I'm tied to the tracks and the train is pretty close. And while I could debate the theoretical possibilities of how things might be different, I don't see a whole lot I can DO.

I've spent my life trying to do good by my fellow humans and even more by this planet. I drive a high mpg car but reduce my driving anyway, recycle, have reduced my water use to next to nothing, plant trees, donate to groups that do good (and not just whine at congress) ... I even work at an environmental agency. Hell, I'm STILL boycotting Nestle for their infant formula grotesqueire, where infants starved to death, or shit themselves to death, due to their ad campaign in India. And btw, they're still doing it 35 years later. And has any of this been anything more than an ant under a semi? What we need is MASS action - but we're not going to get it. One part of society is stressed beyond belief by the economy, the other part is focused on the latest gadgets, and MEANWHILE - the rich do what they do and to hell with the planet, the people, and the future. I'm too old, too experienced, and too tired to try to move the system. There is NOTHING I can think of to do that I haven't already done or am not already doing, and it's not enough.

So, SignyM, you seem to be exhorting us to DO ... something. Then let me ask YOU - what do you suggest?

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Monday, January 6, 2014 11:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This is all about taking power from the powerful, because the powerful will never willingly give it up: That's why they're TPTB. Right?

So, what are the levers that anyone can apply?

First of all... for those of in the USA, don't forget, we live in the Heart of Darkness. It is OUR vast military and spy network that empowers the current clusterfuck.

So, there's the power of the vote and political action. Dreamtrove once observed that the political process is most vulnerable to at the political primary stage. So push the Dems to field the farthest left candidates available. Volunteer for the candidate of your choice. But once beyond the primary, the best bet is a third party action and vote. Help out your third party candidate. And if the Dem candidate is going to win (or lose) no matter what- vote third party. Stop getting suckered into automatically voting Dem. A few Dems are great; but most of them would trade their children for another term and a piece of the action. It doesn't matter if your third-party candidate wins or loses, but if he or she comes up with a respectable 5% vote the two major parties really start paying attention and will court your vote the next time. (But check out their candidate's voting record; most major politicians by definition will say anything to get elected.) And, of course, donate to the candidate of your choice.

Get involved in various action campaigns. Email petitions: Sometimes clicktivism works. Write. Call. Think about something that riles you up (for me, it's healthcare and fracking). Bird dog it with intensity. If you have the time, volunteer for the various NGOs working on your issue(s). ALWAYS push for greater coordination between groups. I will remember (with disgust) the time a woman's movement group refused to sign an anti-nuclear petition. Don't be that person, and don't be that group.

If you are going to get involved in demonstrations, be part of the organizing committee. The reason why Occupy fell apart is because of sheer political naivete. A commitment to direct democracy (consensus-building) which guaranteed that no goals would be set, no focused action would be taken, no coalitions (with unions and NGOs) would be created. WTF??? A movement which claims to represent 99% getting persnickety about who can join? No thought as to what would happen when peace was met with violence? Political kindergarten!

Use your economic tools, as workers, consumers, and investors. I am (FINALLY, ashamed to say) moving our considerable assets out of financial institutions which do not meet our political standards. One way to influence foreign nations, or companies operating in foreign nations, is divestiture. Selected boycotts... for example, bottled water. (What a scam!)

Eschew Apple, Microsoft, Google (including Gmail) and Facebook. Aside from the fact that they're virtual monopolies in their fields, they have already sold you out to the NSA. There are alternatives out there; if you need help finding them, let me know.

Think about non-violence strategically, not morally. Violence has already been used: in Panama and Nicaragua, and Vietnam and Indonesia and Libya, Syria, and Iraq. It's happened everywhere ... just not to us. So now we know what the campensino feels like. But also remember that the rules have been written so that you (literally) cannot stand on a sidewalk without breaking some rule somewhere. We're living in a dystopia. To fully comprehend it borders on paranoia.


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