Governor Paul LePage: Let 12-Year-Olds Go To Work by Niki2

... On one hand, making this argument about the economy is pretty bullshit, because the only way 12 years olds working would help the economy is if they were taking the manufacturing jobs. And to take the manufacturing jobs, they would have to be working the same hours and earning the same wages that workers in developing countries would be willing to accept, without the safety regulations that exist in the US.

Also I'm not sure this isn't something that doesn't already happen, but illegally. There ARE sweatshops here in the US, after all.

But otherwise they would just compete with adults for the existing (non-exploitive) jobs in the job market. So clearly the guy who floated this idea doesn't even understand basic supply and demand and economics.

On the other hand, I have cousins who were already fixing cars and computers when they were ten because they liked it, and they hung out at computer shops offering to fix computers for free as a sort of vocational training apprenticeship type thing. The stores weren't able to pay them wages but they still thought it was fun.

If some kids want to do that for money, and can keep their grades up, maybe that isn't terrible. There's a lot of abuse that happens to kids because the state won't allow them to become independent at young ages. But in some cases the kid would be both capable AND it would be in their best interest to be independent.

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Wednesday, January 8, 2014 4:29 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Well if you are going to let (make) them work at 12 you need to lower the drinking age as well. I know I enjoy a good beer after work.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 8, 2014 4:33 PM

Quote:
Well if you are going to let (make) them work at 12 you need to lower the drinking age as well. I know I enjoy a good beer after work.

I don't think France even has a drinking age limit.

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Wednesday, January 8, 2014 8:40 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
they would just compete with adults for the existing (non-exploitive) jobs in the job market. So clearly the guy who floated this idea doesn't even understand basic supply and demand and economics.

I was wondering if/when someone would think of that; congrats for being the first Byte. It's the obvious response and shows the ignorance of the speaker; with unemployment so high, the idea of letting kids work is absurd on many fronts, but that one is the first that should occur to anyone before they start saying kids not working is "hurting" the economy!

Of course, HE has in mind letting them work for less than minimum wage, I'm sure, and of course they wouldn't be eligible for unemployment or anything, no doubt...

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Thursday, January 9, 2014 7:50 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

I sense too much cynicism. Govenor LePage is actually good to children, appointing his 22-year-old daughter Lauren as assistant to his chief of staff—an entry-level position with an annual salary of approximately $41,000—and employee benefits estimated to be worth an additional $15,000. While residing in the governor's mansion, she also receives a housing benefit with an estimated value of $10,000 per year. The total is $66,000 per year. http://bangordailynews.com/2010/12/22/politics/lepage-chooses-daughter
-for-administration-post/
www.pressherald.com/news/democrats-call-hiring-of-lepages-daughter-bra
zen-nepotism_2010-12-24.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, January 9, 2014 9:23 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hee, hee, hee; thanx Second. Yup, loves kids, obviously.

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Thursday, January 9, 2014 4:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I don't think France even has a drinking age limit.

Well, it's FRANCE, if you had to live with the French, wouldn't YOU wanna drink ?

-F

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Thursday, January 9, 2014 6:27 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I'd be happy to have a year in France, yes with the French.

Nothing wrong with them.

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Friday, January 10, 2014 1:10 PM

Quote:
I'd be happy to have a year in France, yes with the French.

Nothing wrong with them.

Well no. But their movies and such do tend to put a lot of emphasis on the melancholy, wistful, cynical, and whimsical.

They came up with Film Noir after all. So culturally I think they have me beat on all those fronts hands down. Drinks anyone?

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:18 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

How about 12-year-olds being paper boys/girls?

It was part of Gov. Lepage's comments in the article, but somehow got left out of the original quote.

Quote:
"There is nothing wrong with being a paperboy at 12 years old, or at a store sorting bottles at 12 years old."

Then again, per the article, 12-year-old kids can now work in Maine, if they "...get a work permit from their school superintendent and meet other requirements."

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Well if you are going to let (make) them work at 12 you need to lower the drinking age as well. I know I enjoy a good beer after work.

I don't think France even has a drinking age limit.

I wonder if they have an age limit on purchasing alcohol though ?

As for working, small hands do fit into machinery better than adult hands. Thoungh the very young can't pull or carry very much, so I guess it's a toss up.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 3:57 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So apparently Gov. Paul LePage lied when he said "We don’t allow children to work until they’re 16 ..." because, as you so helpfully pointed out, what he said doesn't mesh with the facts: "Maine law requires students who want to work before they reach the age of 16 to get a work permit from their school superintendent and meet other requirements."

So thanks for fact checking his statement. What should I give it - pants on fire?

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Then again, per the article, 12-year-old kids can now work in Maine, if they "...get a work permit from their school superintendent and meet other requirements."

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 4:18 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I THINK the assumption is that if children go to work, they'll bring in more money to impoverished households, thereby strengthening the economy.

Of course that brings to mind the historical precedents which existed for the exact same reason of poverty:

as well as current global child labor, both in the US and elsewhere:

But this goes back to the other thread about having poor children work for their lunches. Apparently, it's supposed to be a positive, character-building thing for children, aside from the money.

But no one has answered this question yet - if working is such a good thing for children, why shouldn't we make ALL children work, rich and poor alike, so they can ALL reap the benefits? But no one is proposing that.

It's just another tissue-thin example of the rich and powerful prescribing one set of cushy laws for themselves, and a much harsher sets of laws for everyone else. Children working? It's a great thing. But not MY children. Only THEIR children.

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 5:06 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
[

Well no. But their movies and such do tend to put a lot of emphasis on the melancholy, wistful, cynical, and whimsical.

Well everyone comes across as melancholy, wistful, cynical and whimsical when you compare them to Hollywood cheesiness.

Which is probably a lesson - never judge a country by their film industry.

I've never understood the American hate on France, it's a great country. I'd love to be in Paris right now.

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 5:09 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

IRe the topic of the thread, its not so much about work, IMO, its about leaving school to work. A paper round or a few hours in a shop, I'm not concered about. 12 year old leaving school to take up full time employment, I do have a problem with,

Laws here. You must be in some form of education until you are 16. You can work from 11 onwards in some part time jobs - light work only. Not during school hours. I think there are some exemptions for working earlier in family businesses.

Pretty reasonable, I think.

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 5:16 PM

Quote:
It's just another tissue-thin example of the rich and powerful prescribing one set of cushy laws for themselves, and a much harsher sets of laws for everyone else. Children working? It's a great thing. But not MY children. Only THEIR children.

Hmm. You're right.

Based on the existence of kids who CAN work before sixteen already, in a non-exploitative fashion, and now that I'm thinking about what is already required for emancipation, I have no further caveats. This proposition fails on all counts and has no good or useful result.

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Saturday, January 11, 2014 5:19 PM

Quote:
IRe the topic of the thread, its not so much about work, IMO, its about leaving school to work. A paper round or a few hours in a shop, I'm not concered about. 12 year old leaving school to take up full time employment, I do have a problem with,

And now that I'm seeing the cracks, here's another issue with this. Already there are hoops that kids have to jump through between school and curfew laws in order to work. And I doubt that this proposition even considers that issue, which means:

More poor kids (and likely ethnic minority kids) are going to get arrested. So this only further feeds the ravenous corporate police state. A round about way of not only eliminating minimum wage, but no longer having to pay wages at all.

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:40 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
IRe the topic of the thread, its not so much about work, IMO, its about leaving school to work. A paper round or a few hours in a shop, I'm not concered about. 12 year old leaving school to take up full time employment, I do have a problem with,

Laws here. You must be in some form of education until you are 16. You can work from 11 onwards in some part time jobs - light work only. Not during school hours. I think there are some exemptions for working earlier in family businesses.

Pretty reasonable, I think.

[sarcasm]But you must understand, if a Republican suggests children should be allowed to work, even if he mentions working at things like paper routes or a few hours in a shop, it's code for having them in coal mines 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a dime an hour. That's why Niki felt justified in editing out the Governor's examples of paper routes and sorting bottles.[/sarcasm]

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 1:48 PM

Quote:
But you must understand, if a Republican suggests children should be allowed to work, even if he mentions working at things like paper routes or a few hours in a shop

But they already do this. The argument has a false basis to begin with.

If that is all the Governor wants, then he doesn't need to object because we already have this. So why then is he objecting? As a politician, what are his motivations on this issue, and why is he misrepresenting it? It raises questions.

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 4:03 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"If that is all the Governor wants, then he doesn't need to object because we already have this."

Thank you Byte.

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 4:26 PM

ELVISCHRIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

That's why Niki felt justified in editing out the Governor's examples of paper routes and sorting bottles.

I thought you hated it when people tried to assign motives or feelings to your words.

I guess it's different when you do it, though. Right?

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 4:41 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wow, some people can't take yes for an answer:

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So apparently Gov. Paul LePage lied when he said "We don’t allow children to work until they’re 16 ..." because, as you so helpfully pointed out, what he said doesn't mesh with the facts: "Maine law requires students who want to work before they reach the age of 16 to get a work permit from their school superintendent and meet other requirements."

So thanks for fact checking his statement. What should I give it - pants on fire?
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Then again, per the article, 12-year-old kids can now work in Maine, if they "...get a work permit from their school superintendent and meet other requirements."

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
[sarcasm]But you must understand, if a Republican suggests children should be allowed to work, even if he mentions working at things like paper routes or a few hours in a shop...[/sarcasm]

RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!

As evidence of "rape mentality"
Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:26 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The more I think about it, the more peculiar his speech seems. I looked fairly extensively for the full text of his speech, but unfortunately, I'm stuck with the snippets reported:

The speech was given to the 73rd annual Maine Agricultural Trades Show

We don’t allow children to work until they’re 16, but two years later, when they’re 18, they can go to war and fight for us. That’s causing damage to our economy. I started working far earlier than that, and it didn’t hurt me at all. There is nothing wrong with being a paperboy at 12 years old, or at a store sorting bottles at 12 years old.
You’re the folks we want to bring prosperity to. If the revenues go up, I can go golfing. If not, I’m going to have to continue working 80 hours a week.

Now, if he REALLY meant kids should be delivering newspapers or sorting bottles a few hours a week, why would he think that would improve the economy? Does he really think a few young children doing small tasks like delivering newspapers is going to boost the economy? And why would he use those (non-applicable) examples at an agricultural trade show? And say he wants those businesses to have prosperity? It's peculiar to the point of being uninterpretable.

The only way I can make sense out of it is this: He wants children doing agricultural labor. Perhaps sorting apples or candling eggs, or picking strawberries, or tomatoes. He wants lots of children working a few hours - thereby avoiding taxes, social security, and full-time work labor restrictions and requirements like breaks, benefits, and overtime rules.

Maybe someone else can make better sense of this, but this is the only thing I can make out of it. He wants lots of children working in agriculture in such a way as to skirt labor laws, thereby bringing prosperity to businesses.

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:40 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

S'a conundrum. First, “We don’t allow children to work until they’re 16." But that's not true; as it clearly states, they CAN work before they're 16, they're just protected from being FORCED to work until they're 16, and there are measures in place to ensure they are not abused. So...he lied?

Second, since as Geezer pointed out, they DO already work at under 16 with paper routes, etc., so what exactly IS the gentleman proposing?

I'm afraid they can't have it both ways. If the work they do now ISN'T what he's talking about then he'd have to clarify what he IS talking about...which has to be more than after-school paper routes, etc. I Googled quite a bit but can find nothing except that original article; nowhere does he clarify what he means by "work option"…

Ah, I did find this:

Quote:
Since taking office, the LePage administration has proposed, unsuccessfully, bills to create a children’s “training wage” of $5.25 per hour and other measures to reduce barriers to children working, including an effort to alter the work permit process last year.
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/12/02/politics/lepages-efforts-to-remo
ve-child-labor-barriers-to-continue-in-january/

I do believe that answers part of the question; he wants kids under 16 to be able to work FOR LESS WAGES.

There's lots more in that article; it's apparently been a "thing" for LePage for quite some time now to try and let kids under 16 work. Previous bills have failed (and he's determined to keep it up with "the new year"):

Quote:
In 2011, LePage sharply criticized the processing time for work permits. “Three weeks to get through the superintendent to the Department of Labor to get a permit. That’s outrageous,” he said. “Why should they not just be able to go to work? It makes no sense to me.”

The Maine School Management Association testified against a similar bill, LD 431, earlier this year because, they said, local schools best know a student’s status, including whether he or she should be in summer school. The bill ultimately failed.

“As in the regular school year, the superintendent takes into account a student’s academic standing and attendance when approving a summer work permit,” said Elaine Tomaszewski, associate executive director of the organization, in written testimony. “The summer work permit can therefore be a good incentive for a student to keep up with their summer school work.”
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/12/02/politics/lepages-efforts-to-remo
ve-child-labor-barriers-to-continue-in-january/

The above makes sense to me, as does:

Quote:
Under current law, children younger than 16 must obtain a work permit before beginning a job, even if it is for their parents and even if it is during the summer. Applicants must be enrolled in school, not habitually truant or under suspension and passing a majority of their courses.

Employers are required to keep work permits for employees under age 16 on file. A minor must be offered a job before applying for a work permit from the superintendent of his or her local public school. Parental permission is also required. Age 16 is the lower limit for most jobs in hotels, manufacturing, bakeries, laundries, dry cleaners, garages, amusements and theaters.

After a superintendent issues a work permit, the paperwork goes to the Department of Labor, which reviews it to ensure the applicant is of legal age for the job and that the job is not hazardous. The minor is not allowed to work until the permit is verified by the department, which could take up to a week.
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/12/02/politics/lepages-efforts-to-remo
ve-child-labor-barriers-to-continue-in-january/

Interesting guy, according to Wikipedia:

Quote:
LePage was born in Lewiston, Maine, the eldest son of eighteen children of Theresa (née Gagnon) and Gerard LePage, both of French-Canadian descent.[3] He grew up speaking French in an impoverished home with an abusive father who was a mill worker.[4] His father drank heavily and terrorized the children; and his mother was too intimidated to stop him.[5] At age eleven, after his father beat him and broke his nose, he ran away from home and lived on the streets of Lewiston, seeking shelter wherever he could find it, including in horse stables and at a "strip joint". After spending roughly two years homeless, he began to earn a living shining shoes, washing dishes at a café and hauling boxes for a truck driver. He later worked at a rubber company, a meat-packing plant, and was a short order cook, and bartender.

LePage applied to Husson College in Bangor, but was initially rejected due to a poor verbal score on the SAT, a result of English being his second language. He has said that Peter Snowe – the first husband of former U.S. Senator from Maine Olympia Snowe – persuaded Husson to give LePage a written exam in French, which allowed LePage to show his comprehension and be admitted.

Actually, given his history, I'm not surprised he thinks kids should work. Does anyone want to make bets on his feelings about immigrants and English as a national language?

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:41 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

LePage is a republican backed by TPers: "LePage, who was backed by local Tea Party activists ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_LePage

And ALECs latest agenda is the dismantling of child labor laws:

Newt’s revenge: Child labor makes a comeback
In just two years, right-wing legislators weakened four states' child labor laws -- and a raft of other protections
"... a report being released Thursday suggests Americans dramatically underestimate the scope and ambition of Republicans’ post-2010 push to ratchet workplace laws to the right – involving over a dozen states, a tangled web of under-the-radar coordination, and a broad constellation of weakened protections, from unemployment benefits to child labor laws." http://www.salon.com/2013/10/31/newts_revenge_child_labor_makes_a_come
back/

I think that's it. He really is on board with child labor - everything the law will allow, and with ambitions to weaken the laws even more. And as you pointed out Niki, paying minors only a $5.25 per hour 'training wage' for their work.

That's the link between his support for 'paper routes' and increased prosperity for business.

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Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:45 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"Americans dramatically underestimate the scope and ambition of Republicans’ post-2010 push to ratchet workplace laws to the right – involving over a dozen states, a tangled web of under-the-radar coordination, and a broad constellation of weakened protections, from unemployment benefits to child labor laws". Yup, I think that's what it's all about. When, in one week we have a call for child labor, doing away with the 5-day work week and eliminating the minimum wage, I think it's fair to say something's up.

ALEC is at work on many fronts in many states; they've figured out how to undermine federal protections state by state "on the down low", and it will only continue.

LePage has, of course, stated:

Quote:
“I’m all for not allowing a 12-year-old to work 40 hours,” said LePage to Downeast magazine for an interview that was published this month. “But a 12-year-old working eight to 10 hours a week or a 14-year-old working 12 to 15 hours a week is not bad.

But I'll bet he'd scream bloody murder about "slippery slope" if any number of other things were suggested...like maybe background checks for guns?

Not to mention the fact that children under 16 ARE ALREADY WORKING "8 to 10 hours", like, remember, those paper routes?

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Monday, January 13, 2014 8:50 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
[sarcasm]But you must understand, if a Republican suggests children should be allowed to work, even if he mentions working at things like paper routes or a few hours in a shop, it's code for having them in coal mines 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a dime an hour.[/sarcasm]

Q.E.D.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, January 13, 2014 9:46 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

That snark does not address any of the pertinent questions asked, it is nothing but a snark; I take it from that, that we should therefore assume you have no answers to the questions posed.

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Monday, January 13, 2014 10:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
AUGUSTA — Gov. Paul LePage told attendees of the 73rd annual Maine Agricultural Trades Show on Tuesday that 12-year-olds should be allowed to work in Maine.

“We don’t allow children to work until they’re 16, but two years later, when they’re 18, they can go to war and fight for us,” LePage said. “That’s causing damage to our economy."

Maine law requires students who want to work before they reach the age of 16 to get a work permit from their school superintendent and meet other requirements.

“You’re the folks we want to bring prosperity to,” he told several hundred people at a luncheon at the show, held at the Augusta Civic Center. “If the revenues go up, I can go golfing. If not, I’m going to have to continue working 80 hours a week.” http://www.pressherald.com/politics/LePage_says_children_should_have_w
ork_option.html

Step Whatever (after "no more five-day work weeks", killing unions, keeping the minimum wage at poverty levels, etc.): Put the children to work.

I think you're just suffering from Post-Awesome-America disorder....

Chances are, at least one pair of pre-10-year-old hands touched the threads on the blouse you're wearing today.

The really scary thing is that if things don't turn around, it will be American-Born children who are making beautiful textiles for Chinese Princesses to pay off our eternal debt.

12 year olds green flagged to work = legalization of pot for tax revenue.

Put that in your theoretical pipe and metaphorically smoke it.......

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Monday, January 13, 2014 10:11 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
That snark does not address any of the pertinent questions asked, it is nothing but a snark; I take it from that, that we should therefore assume you have no answers to the questions posed.

Don't need to say anything. the conspiracy theory stuff y'all are posting proves my point quite well.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, January 13, 2014 10:12 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

What about the conspiracy theory stuff I'm posting. You can't lump Niki in with me, that's for sure brotha :)

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Monday, January 13, 2014 10:18 AM

Quote:
The really scary thing is that if things don't turn around, it will be American-Born children who are making beautiful textiles for Chinese Princesses to pay off our eternal debt.

China doesn't really have princesses. I guess they could reinstate the imperial system... But even then, they never really gave the time of day to female offspring, even in the ruling family. Closest thing to a princess you might find would've been the wife of the Emperor, but that kinda loses it's luster since they all had like twenty concubines running around plotting to kill the current wife and heirs and all.

Anyway, China isn't really that scary. Their economy is worse than ours is in terms of an economic bubble and while they have a lot of people, they don't actually have the military wherewithal to take on the US. Plus they have to devote most of their forces to maintaining the police state and the hold over their ill-gotten lands and all the ethnic minorities.

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Monday, January 13, 2014 5:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"conspiracy theory stuff"

WHAT conspiracy theory stuff? Let's have some quotes. Or STFU.

BTW, I expect you will NEVER be able to cough up any. As usual.

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Monday, January 13, 2014 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Well everyone comes across as melancholy, wistful, cynical and whimsical when you compare them to Hollywood cheesiness.

Which is probably a lesson - never judge a country by their film industry.

I've never understood the American hate on France, it's a great country. I'd love to be in Paris right now.

Fact - people are the same everywhere.

Except France.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2013/12/27/inaccuracy-n
ational-character-stereotypes/#.UsL5-dJDs1I

(And Hong Kong, though I have no idea what stereotype applies to Hong Kong)

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Wednesday, January 15, 2014 10:50 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Still waiting for "the conspiracy theory stuff".

But OF COURSE you have no examples.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!

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Friday, January 17, 2014 12:39 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh yooo hooo - geeeezer. yanno how you DEMAND people post proof for their claims? How about it? Or do you want to show us - yet again - what a hypocrite you are?

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Saturday, January 18, 2014 2:41 AM