REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Thailand's poltical crisis, on one easy summary

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, March 14, 2014 12:44
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Saturday, March 8, 2014 2:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm posting this as background on Thailand's political crisis. I've seen most of this elsewhere. Also, it pays to know people who know people: thru connections, I know a Thai resident who personally witnessed the killing of pro-democracy demonstrators in 2000, which had been ordered by the current head of "the opposition". According to him, many of those killed were sitting down to eat when they were taken out by sniper-fire headshots. (This theme plays out over and over, in Venezuela in 2002, andin the Ukraine.)

Quote:

The Yellow Shirts Versus The Red Shirts: The Inside Story

A classic struggle between social classes is being played out in the streets of Bangkok, Thailand, as hundreds of thousands of so-called 'yellow shirt' middle-class demonstrators seek to overthrow the current democratically-elected government.

Throughout the country Thais are glued to their TV sets, watching the unfolding Bangkok drama. But they watch on different channels. The social groups that support the government watch live coverage on their own national television channel, dubbed 'Red TV' after their 'red-shirt' identity; meanwhile, the opposition have their own channel and watch coverage on 'yellow shirt' TV .

The sharp class divisions in this country are frequently portrayed in western media as a struggle between 'the Bangkok middle class and the rural poor'. But in fact matters are not at all that simple; both rural and urban workers and farmers are also key actors in this drama, and this is a struggle taking place on two levels.

At the 'top level' there are two small, wealthy, and powerful groups contending with each other for power. One group we can loosely call ‘the King’s men’; the other we can call ‘the new money’.

The King’s men are, to a great extent, clustered around the King and his allies. Yes, Thailand has a king, and this king has tremendous social, political and economic power. Don't confuse him with royalty like Queen Elizabeth of England, whose power is largely ceremonial these days. The Thai king has real power – the kind possessed by kings in days of old, including power within the Thai military whose leaders’ first loyalty is arguably to him.

It is a criminal offense, punishable with a jail sentence of up to ten years to criticize the king in any way in Thailand. And this law is enforced. So Thai people seldom discuss the King’s real role, preferring to let pass in silence the public claim that the King is a 'politically neutral and beloved figure', as is also frequently repeated in western media.

Allied with the king and his circle is a network of traditionalist and neo-traditionalist elites, including most of the large land owners; parts of the top echelons of the military and government bureaucracy; and the owners of most of the industry, banks, and other large enterprises in Thailand.

This 'King’s group', though economically and politically powerful, is numerically quite small. It is therefore compelled to mobilize another more populated social class if it wants to enforce its interests and views on Thai society. Its instrument in this regard is the Thai upper-middle class, comprising of professionals, small and medium sized business owners and the like.

These are the people (the 'Yellow Shirts') who are currently demonstrating in large numbers in the streets of Bangkok for the overthrow of the present elected government. The principal strategist for their street actions is not, however, a middle-class person. It is Suthep Thaugsuban, whose cherubic face, and comments, now appear constantly in world media.

What is missing from the accounts of this 'middle-class’ hero is his truly horrifying - and corrupt - record as a member of the traditionalist elite. Thaugsuban has previously been accused of corrupt distribution of government land to wealthy families; forced to surrender his seat in parliament to avoid being disqualified for corruption involving his media holdings; and is currently indicted for mass murder.

The murder charge stems from court findings that Thaugsubans' direct orders - given when he was vice-president of a non-elected, military-supported government - led in 2010 to the brutal killing by the military of 80 red-shirt pro-democracy demonstrators, and the injury of 2000, most of them farmers and workers.

One might well wonder why a person charged with mass murder is free to organize mass demonstrations in Bangkok, and is frequently written up favorably in media. The explanation is simple: The 'traditionalist elite', which includes Thaugsuban, wields tremendous power over the economy, bureaucracies and the courts of Thailand.

Now we come to the other elite group, which we may call ‘the new money’ - whose supporters are known in Thailand as the 'red shirts' - who stand opposed to the 'yellow-shirt' traditionalists.

This group is headed by the self-made mobile phone and media billionaire Thaksin Shinawatra, a Thai business mogul, who founded the Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party in 1998. Based on democratic elections, he served as prime minister from 2001 until 2006 when he was overthrown in a military coup supported by the traditionalists.

Since then, Thaksin has been in exile, and was convicted in absentia of abusing his position as prime minister when he co-signed a land buying agreement with his wife, though no evidence of unjust enrichment or profit on his part was shown.

Nevertheless, Thaksin has continued to exercise enormous influence in Thailand. First, through a government led by his brother, elected on a 'Thaksin program' but overthrown by another military coup. And now through the democratically elected government of the Pheu Thai party with his sister Yingluck Shinawatra as prime minister, a government again under traditionalist threat.

It is evident from the string of overthrows that Thaksin’s group enjoys much weaker support than its opponents in the traditional sources of power in Thailand, and that the mass demonstrations in Bangkok may again force out a Thaksin government, or trigger yet another military coup.

But Thaksin’s group holds one key trump card. Like the ‘king’s party’, Thaksin’s group is small and must mobilize another and more numerous social class to defend its interests and program. But the class on which it relies happens to be the vast majority of the 80 million Thai people, the workers and farmers of Thailand.

To win their support, Thaksin’s governments have brought in a series of powerful social reforms. These reforms are generally glossed-over in current media reports as 'handouts to farmers', 'populist policies', and the like, without any concrete description of what they are.

In reality, Thaksin’s progressive reforms go far beyond anything introduced, even in relatively wealthy countries like the US or Britain in recent years.

To begin with, Thaksin’s government brought universal health care to all Thailand's' farmers and workers. Any Thai citizen can visit any hospital and receive medical care, including serious operations, by paying just 30 bht (about $1 US).

In addition, large tracts of unused land were taken away from wealthy Thais, some belonging to traditional elites, and distributed to poor and landless farmers who had no jobs or little income. What's more, a student loan program was introduced, which for the first time allows students from villages or working class families to go to university and pay the money back later.

Also introduced was a program of easy micro-loans for people wanting to open small businesses. Taxi drivers, who previously had to rent their taxis, could now make long-term monthly payments to buy and eventually own their own taxis. Taxi drivers are a significant part of the workforce and the economy in tourist-oriented Thailand.

These reforms, which have changed the lives of tens of millions, are the real reason that Thaksin’s group has won every election it has contested, the last with a landslide win for his sisters' party. The reforms are also the reason that mass resistance and red-shirt demonstrations of workers and farmers erupted after each of the anti-Thaksin military coups.

Middle-class anti-government demonstrators are often thought to be pro-democracy demonstrators. But in Thailand that coin is reversed. The goals of the middle-class demonstrators, and their traditionalist backers, in Bangkok are crystal clear. First, they have blocked candidate registration sites to try to block the upcoming election because the votes of workers and farmers will vastly outnumber the votes of the upper middle class and the traditionalist elites. Second, they have demanded that the present elected government of Yingluck Shinawatra be replaced by an (unelected) so-called 'neutral committee', which would in reality serve as the front for the traditionalists and be backed by the iron hand of force. Third, if all else fails, they would like to instigate either a military coup by 'royalist officers' and yet another round of military dictatorship.

Whatever happens in Bangkok, Thailand's workers and farmers are highly unlikely to surrender their hard-won rights to free elections, medical care, land, and a better life. Any attempt to roll-back those rights will in all probability be met with un-ending resistance.


http://rt.com/op-edge/thailand-ongoing-political-crisis-364/

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Saturday, March 8, 2014 4:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Here's a video on the same topic, with more detail

Keiser Report: Triangle Of Fraud (interview begins approx 13:00)



Sorry for the botched thread title, I had to to run off and do something, hit the "post" button before it was ready!


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Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well me, I've been pissed off at them since 1991, and so long as a significant portion of their GDP comes from pimping their kids to foreign perverts, that ain't gonna change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t!_Buy!_Thai!
(add last ! manually, or link will not work)

Others may have thrown in the towel, but I *never* did, ask WWASPS how long I can hold a grudge....

-F

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 9:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But Thaksin’s group holds one key trump card. Like the ‘king’s party’, Thaksin’s group is small and must mobilize another and more numerous social class to defend its interests and program. But the class on which it relies happens to be the vast majority of the 80 million Thai people, the workers and farmers of Thailand.

To win their support, Thaksin’s governments have brought in a series of powerful social reforms. These reforms are generally glossed-over in current media reports as 'handouts to farmers', 'populist policies', and the like, without any concrete description of what they are.



So you haven't been keeping up on the "Rice Mortgaging" scheme?

The Thai government's been buying (actually giving IOUs for) rice from farmers at 50% over market price for the past few years. Unfortunately they haven't been able to sell all that rice, and are now short of money to pay the farmers what they are owed.

Plenty of articles about it here. http://oryza.com/tags/thailand-rice-mortgage-scheme


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The National Economic and Social Development Board (NESDB) in Thailand has lowered the country's economic growth forecast for 2014 to 3-4% from its earlier forecast of 4-5% after GDP growth in the fourth quarter of 2013 slowed down to 0.6%, according to local sources. The NESDB said in a statement on Monday that the economy grew by 2.9% in 2013, which was reportedly lower than the 3% predicted by the Bank of Thailand (BoT) in November 2013.

The NESDB also lowered its export and import growth projections for the country. While the Board revised the 2014 export growth down to 5-7% from its previous projection of 7%, it cut its projection for 2014 import growth to 5.7% from its previous forecast of 6.7%.

Although sources from the Finance Ministry expressed doubts whether the credit rating agencies would downgrade Thailand, both Moody's Investors Service and Fitch Ratings assigned "Baa1" and "BBB" respectively for Thailand, with stable outlook. The rating agencies said they did not consider government's unpaid debts to the country's farmers as a technical default as the delayed payments were largely due to prolonged political conflict.

The Caretaker government is still struggling to garner funds to make payments to the farmers. The labor union of the state-run Government Savings Bank (GSB) are opposing the bank's decision to approve a 20 billion baht (around $618 million) loan to the Bank of Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives (BAAC) saying lending to finance the troubled rice pledging scheme would undermine the confidence of depositors. While the GSB President maintained that the lending was not meant to support the rice pledging scheme, the government insisted on making the long-overdue payments to the farmers from Monday.

Meanwhile, the caretaker Prime Minister has assured that payments will be made to all farmers participating in the rice-pledging scheme. She blamed the political protestors for using the farmers' problems to bring down the caretaker government. The farmers are now in the middle of a political game being played by the protest leaders, who are refusing to follow the democratic and legal path, she adds. The PM said the BAAC would extend the period of debt repayments and increase credit line limits. The government needs about 130 billion baht (around $4 billion).

If I read the latest article correctly, the difficulty appears to be because of PROLONGED POLITICAL CONFLICT.


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Sunday, March 9, 2014 1:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

The National Economic and Social Development Board (NESDB) in Thailand has lowered the country's economic growth forecast for 2014 to 3-4% from its earlier forecast of 4-5% after GDP growth in the fourth quarter of 2013 slowed down to 0.6%, according to local sources. The NESDB said in a statement on Monday that the economy grew by 2.9% in 2013, which was reportedly lower than the 3% predicted by the Bank of Thailand (BoT) in November 2013.

The NESDB also lowered its export and import growth projections for the country. While the Board revised the 2014 export growth down to 5-7% from its previous projection of 7%, it cut its projection for 2014 import growth to 5.7% from its previous forecast of 6.7%.

Although sources from the Finance Ministry expressed doubts whether the credit rating agencies would downgrade Thailand, both Moody's Investors Service and Fitch Ratings assigned "Baa1" and "BBB" respectively for Thailand, with stable outlook. The rating agencies said they did not consider government's unpaid debts to the country's farmers as a technical default as the delayed payments were largely due to prolonged political conflict.

The Caretaker government is still struggling to garner funds to make payments to the farmers. The labor union of the state-run Government Savings Bank (GSB) are opposing the bank's decision to approve a 20 billion baht (around $618 million) loan to the Bank of Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives (BAAC) saying lending to finance the troubled rice pledging scheme would undermine the confidence of depositors. While the GSB President maintained that the lending was not meant to support the rice pledging scheme, the government insisted on making the long-overdue payments to the farmers from Monday.

Meanwhile, the caretaker Prime Minister has assured that payments will be made to all farmers participating in the rice-pledging scheme. She blamed the political protestors for using the farmers' problems to bring down the caretaker government. The farmers are now in the middle of a political game being played by the protest leaders, who are refusing to follow the democratic and legal path, she adds. The PM said the BAAC would extend the period of debt repayments and increase credit line limits. The government needs about 130 billion baht (around $4 billion).

If I read the latest article correctly, the difficulty appears to be because of PROLONGED POLITICAL CONFLICT.



Way to take out of context.

Their credit rating hasn't been dropped since the rating agencies note the political conflict, but they still are not able to borrow the money they need to pay the farmers. Even the union of the state-run Government Savings Bank is opposing a loan to the Bank of Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives. The government, as usual, blames the opposition.

Buying votes on credit usually come back to bite you in the ass eventually.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 2:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Payments were delayed due to a prolonged political conflict... not due to shortage of money, according to western ratings agencies. And those ratings agencies... they're in the business of detecting cash-flow and credit problems, so I'm not sure how else to read it.

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 2:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Payments were delayed due to a prolonged political conflict... not due to shortage of money, according to western ratings agencies. And those ratings agencies... they're in the business of detecting cash-flow and credit problems, so I'm not sure how else to read it.



Have the farmers been paid? Did the government promise payment? Has the government been unable to get loans to pay the farmers, despite their credit rating staying stable? Might buying rice at 50% over market price and having to dump it in a worldwide glut of rice have anything to do with it? Do command economies ever work? When did you start pimping for RT?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 2:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


To answer your last question first: I save all of my pimping for zerohedge.com.


Based on what I read, the problem with getting the money is political, not economic. Is there a worldwide glut of rice? I don't know, I'll have to look that up. Also, I'll have to confirm that what the Thai farmers have been promised is 50% over the worldwide price, and to think about whether or not that makes any difference in the long run.


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Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Based on what I read, the problem with getting the money is political, not economic. Is there a worldwide glut of rice? I don't know, I'll have to look that up.



http://www.agprofessional.com/news/World-faces-rice-glut-Philippines-p
ressured-over-high-rice-price-248426341.html


Quote:

Also, I'll have to confirm that what the Thai farmers have been promised is 50% over the worldwide price, and to think about whether or not that makes any difference in the long run.


Quote:

controversial rice subsidy scheme, which paid farmers up to 50 percent above market rates, helped her sweep to power in 2011 but now appears to be unravelling.


http://www.rappler.com/business/industries/247-agriculture/50330-thai-
rice-woes-government-crisis



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 6:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What I read was this - slightly rearranging the text of the linked article and pointing out some biases:

------------------------------

A controversial rice subsidy scheme, which paid farmers up to 50 percent above [international?] market rates, helped her sweep to power in 2011 but now appears to be unravelling. Critics say ["Some say..."] the program has incubated massive corruption, drained the public finances, dislodged the kingdom as the world's top rice exporter and created an estimated 18 million-ton stockpile of the grain.

Thailand .... was unable to find buyers after rival producers such as India and Vietnam unexpectedly boosted their shipments. A deal to sell one million tons of stockpiled grain to a Chinese state firm recently collapsed after opposition politician Warong Dechgitvigrom [...] submitted the graft complaint. The Thai Rice Exporters Association forecasts the kingdom will sell 7.5 million tonnes overseas this year, down more than 30 percent compared with 2011. [NOTE that the one million-ton deal would have made up for approximately one-third of the grain sale shortfall ... if it had gone thru.]

Hundreds of farmers have protested recently in Bangkok to demand payment after the government ran short of cash to buy their pledged crops late last year, adding to pressure on Yingluck, who has faced months of opposition rallies. The cabinet earmarked nearly $22 million Tuesday for about 3,900 farmers but, in a sign of the policy constraints it faces, the payments must be approved by the Election Commission.

"We are trying to solve the problem as best we can... but the banks will not approve loans," Yingluck told reporters on Tuesday. "The government's financial and monetary status is good."

[Anti-democracy] Opposition demonstrators [...] disrupted the February 2 election... leaving her caretaker administration with limited power to raise funds.[But] Until voting is held in dozens of protest-hit constituencies, there are not enough MPs to appoint a new government even if Yingluck's party wins.

The government has not revealed the exact annual cost of the scheme, but the TDRI says estimates range from $4.6 billion to $6 billion – roughly 6% to 8% of the annual budget.

--------------------------

So, as I gather it... The opposition disrupted elections, tanked an export deal with China, and interfered with the government's ability to disburse funds. And now, they're claiming the program has "failed". Right?

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 7:02 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So, as I gather it... The opposition disrupted elections, tanked an export deal with China, and interfered with the government's ability to disburse funds. And now, they're claiming the program has "failed". Right?



Strangely familiar tactics...

You know, as much as I bitch about some aspects of this site, threads like this are one reason I still check in. I don't hear about this stuff elsewhere. Hadn't heard about this one before. Not that I'm convinced by one or two articles, but it's good to be somewhat aware.



*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
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Sunday, March 9, 2014 8:54 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Strangely familiar tactics...



Indeed...

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 10:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Not that I'm convinced by one or two articles, but it's good to be somewhat aware."

The problem with > waiting < for more information to come your way, to have a state of understanding that is convincingly solid, is that it's not going to happen. Except for here, this is not information you're just going to run across. You have to dig for it. Just sayin'.


OONJERAH
We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:45 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Not that I'm convinced by one or two articles, but it's good to be somewhat aware."

The problem with > waiting < for more information to come your way, to have a state of understanding that is convincingly solid, is that it's not going to happen. Except for here, this is not information you're just going to run across. You have to dig for it. Just sayin'.



Well, funny thing, I don't believe that any amount of "internet digging" will reveal The Ultimate Truth, and I have a lot to do besides trying to pick which blog is the most believable. Most I'm willing and able to do at this point is read a few posts from someone I don't always agree with but I know she's smart and has resources.

Can't I just give her that compliment without getting a guilt trip in reply?

Just sayin.


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Oops. Not my intention. There's been a lot of posts about things NOT in the media over the last few threads, starting with the Venezuela thread. And it's been on my mind, especially the fragility of how this information comes to light. So, I came back with an observation about the state of the news, availability of the news, trustworthiness of the news. It wasn't directed at you, just making what was intended to be a generic observation.

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Monday, March 10, 2014 9:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What I read was this - massively rearranging the text of the linked article, editing out any criticism of the government, and adding some biases:




Fixed that for you.

Is this your internship project for RTV?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, March 10, 2014 10:52 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What I read was this - massively rearranging the text of the linked article, editing out any criticism of the government, and adding some biases:




Fixed that for you.

Is this your internship project for RTV?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



That's adorable. At least Sig marked the changes...

Unlike you, who will omit details from an article, and then play dumb when caught.




"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, March 10, 2014 2:06 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
[That's adorable. At least Sig marked the changes...

Unlike you, who will omit details from an article, and then play dumb when caught.




Aww. Story to the rescue. How sweet.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, March 10, 2014 3:38 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oops. Not my intention. There's been a lot of posts about things NOT in the media over the last few threads, starting with the Venezuela thread. And it's been on my mind, especially the fragility of how this information comes to light. So, I came back with an observation about the state of the news, availability of the news, trustworthiness of the news. It wasn't directed at you, just making what was intended to be a generic observation.



Ahh. Gotcha. Sorry for taking it personal. ;)

You do have a good point, one I agree with. The "popular" news is of similar quality to popular food, popular music and popular entertainment these days.





*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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Friday, March 14, 2014 12:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I wanted to get back to this.

GEEZER, you're a propagandist, but not a very good one. There are holes and lies and biases in every story that you print. So, to address the many other parts of the story that I didn't touch on:

Most of the rest of the article were allegations. Sometimes there allegations were preceded by the intro "critics say..." and sometimes they weren't, but allegations have all the weight that belongs to "some say" and "they say"... which means- nothing, until the allegations are investigated and either shown to be true or false, or (as is occasionally the case) something in between.

There is a lot of information missing from the article. That information would be required by ANY intelligent reader trying to reach an objective understanding of whether the rice program is working/ can work again, or not:

What have Thailand's rice exports looked like over the years?
What price was it sold at? Which agencies/ companies sold it? How much did the farmers benefit, and who else profited?
Is the Thai budget stable? (Western ratings agencies say yes)
Is the rice program sustainable, or does it put a major kink in the budget for the forseeable future? Can money be sustainably drawn from other parts of the economy to support farming? Or will farmers have to switch to a more mixed basis?

How did other nations increase their exports? Was it a one-time event, triggered by Thailand withholding its rice from market, or based on favorable weather? Or will this be a consistent "headwind" that Thai rice exports need to face?

There is too much missing information to be able to make a sound judgment, however, every article that I've read is so heavily biased against the program it's impossible to read anything from these articles other than their bias.


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As Palestinians pushes for statehood, Israel finds itself more isolated
Mon, April 15, 2024 13:44 - 284 posts
"Feminism" really means more Femtacular than you at EVERYTHING.
Sun, April 14, 2024 18:05 - 64 posts

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