REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

IMF to Kiev - fight for eastern Ukraine or die

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 4, 2023 17:04
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Friday, May 2, 2014 7:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml


Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428

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Friday, May 2, 2014 7:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Neo-Nazis set fire to a Union Hall on Odessa.

Quote:

Up to 38 reported choked to death in the burned buildings of Odessa.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-02/odessa-images-spooking-market
-ahead-weekend

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Friday, May 2, 2014 7:29 PM

CHRISISALL


It's a disgusting mess.
Reminds me of my youth. Nicaragua. Iran Contra.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 7:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's a disgusting mess.
Reminds me of my youth. Nicaragua. Iran Contra.



Yeah. It's exactly like that.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 9:19 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

IMF : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml



This seems entirely reasonable, especially when you read the article.

And I don't see how the Ukrainian military can effectively counter a heavily Russia-backed insurgency in the East. So yes, expect the IMF deal to be torn up and replaced.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 9:24 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Up to 38 reported choked to death in the burned buildings of Odessa.

Ooh ooh that smell
Can't you smell that smell
The smell that's around you?



It's a smell they've proven throughout their history to be able to get used to pretty quickly.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 9:41 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml


Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428



There you go again. Letting the people responsible for these problems off the hook because all you want to do is blame those who are trying to help.

You never did answer where it is you come from. You have however proved your ignorance on all subjects under the sun and your inability to stop yourself from proving it.

Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

It is as plain as what you say is wrong, everything about what you speak is based on your hate.

I followed the first link and saw nothing of what you speak. It is the Ukraine along with everyone else blaming Russia.

I am done with trying to cut you slack. To continue discussing this or anything else with you would only mean there is something wrong with me.
You are a disappointment.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 10:06 PM

JONGSSTRAW


^^^ Great smackdown on Sniggy, but she's like that inflatable Bluto toy you had as a kid ... knock it over with a punch to the face, and it just comes bouncing right back up as determined as ever. She will always be right, and you will always be wrong if you disagree with anything she spews.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 10:17 PM

CHRISISALL


She spews some pretty cogent stuff. Agree or disagree, it's worth investigating IMO.

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Friday, May 2, 2014 10:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I am done with trying to cut you slack."

And that's all you've got? Personal insults? Being in a snit? You'd be a lot more convincing if you had some credible facts to back up your claims instead of a childish tantrum.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Friday, May 2, 2014 11:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER- Umm... so, no facts to back up your post? No refutation showing me where I'm wrong?

Yanno, I don't expect any facts from rappy, and I rarely expect any from Jonggstraw. You OTOH seemed like you might be open to looking at on-the-ground events... like the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department) and that the people that John McCain had a photo-ops with included actual neo-Nazis.

Here

Business Insider More: John McCain Ukraine
John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukr
aine-2013-12#!HtFT3



So, apparently you don't have the facts and you don't want them. Especially if they challenge your cherished belief system, and point out that the USA just might be fundamentally wrong about something.

That IS pretty disappointing! I thought you were a rational kind of guy.


I have a lot of strong criticisms about China (Tibet and Xinjiang, for example) and some criticisms of Venezuela. Probably fewer about Russia. But I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, so my criticisms are irrelevant.

Oh, and BTW- what the frak does where I'm from have to do with whether what I'm saying is wrong or right? If you MUST know, I was born and lived my entire life in the USA. What of it?

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:25 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml


Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


Posted by Miker in response:


Here is a quote from the first link you provided as proof of your delusion that the US and EU are instigating things in the Ukraine.

"The acting president of Ukraine said that the tens of thousands of Russian troops stationed just over the border meant that "the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real". Russia, which annexed the Crimea region from Ukraine last month, has said it has no plans to invade the east". Annexed means invaded and stole in this case. Did the US and EU goad Russia into that. I am sure you can cut and paste far out opinions about that but it would still be bull.

The BBC article says nothing about The US or EU being responsible for this crises, only how they have offered support to Ukraine and put sanctions in place to deter Putin. Which makes me wonder why you offer this first link up as verifying what you clam. You know the title to this thread, which is what you are purporting to be writing about. IMF TO KIEV- FIGHT FOR EASTERN UKRAINE OR DIE. Did you think no one would follow the links and read the articles.

This is where I wound up following your second link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0
Here is a quote from there.

"The German-led team was detained on April 25 while carrying out a mission for the 57-nation Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, to which Russia, Ukraine and the United States belong". This is an organization put in place to monitor human rights and has existed long before this started in the Ukraine.

Wow, sounds like a real bunch of trouble makers to me, huh! Again this link not only does not support your claims but it suggests like the first link you are wrong and that Russia is pulling all the strings. Can't wait to see what goodies link 3 has in store.

Here is a quote from link three." The International Monetary Fund's official report on the emergency loan, released Thursday, concedes that there are deep risks to its successful implementation, including the quickly eroding economy, corruption, and the current and future government's ability to implement much-needed reforms".

Let's see. The EU the US and the IMF are not to be concerned about loaning the Ukraine 17 billion dollars while it is under assault from Russia? That they may be putting that money into the hands of pro Russian leaders, and funneled out of the country if they gain the upper hand. We are talking 17 billion dollars and they are trying to safe guard it from the wrong people getting hold of it. Makes perfect sense to me. The point is that the world is trying to help and not screw themselves at the same time. It is common sense, and once again the article says nothing to support your claims that the US or EU is behind Ukraine's troubles, but instead it suggests we are trying to help.

Ok I am not even going to follow the last link because I can read what the link says. Here is what it says to me. News flash, Ukraine stands up for it's rights to be a sovereign nation and begins to fight back.

I decided to speak to this after reading how sassy you became after I decided to stop arguing with a Idealist. This opinion you have posted that you claim to back up with facts, is not. You have posted links to articles that don't support your claims that the US and EU are behind the escalating violence. Yes there is all kinds of problems with the Ukrainian military because of it's history. However, none of what is being reported by reputable sources points to the US or the EU as you claim, to being behind the aggressions taking place. What the links provide is just more prof of the bios towards the west that exists in your mind. Here are two quotes from what you wrote to show how screwed up you are. "It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia". First line you write." At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this". First line third paragraph. Man you are all over the map trying to find ways to make the victims out to be the bad guys. By the way, it is funny how you call the Ukrainians fighting for their freedom from corruption and Russia Neo Nazis, which is exactly what Putin calls them. Excuse me I must go now and cut and paste my fantasy garden.

Dos ve donya comrade: you keep on believing.






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Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:47 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
^^^ Great smackdown on Sniggy, but she's like that inflatable Bluto toy you had as a kid ... knock it over with a punch to the face, and it just comes bouncing right back up as determined as ever. She will always be right, and you will always be wrong if you disagree with anything she spews.



Had to follow it up after she turned into a smartass.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 11:48 AM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
MIKER- Umm... so, no facts to back up your post? No refutation showing me where I'm wrong?

Yanno, I don't expect any facts from rappy, and I rarely expect any from Jonggstraw. You OTOH seemed like you might be open to looking at on-the-ground events... like the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department) and that the people that John McCain had a photo-ops with included actual neo-Nazis.

Here

Business Insider More: John McCain Ukraine
John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukr
aine-2013-12#!HtFT3



So, apparently you don't have the facts and you don't want them. Especially if they challenge your cherished belief system, and point out that the USA just might be fundamentally wrong about something.

That IS pretty disappointing! I thought you were a rational kind of guy.


I have a lot of strong criticisms about China (Tibet and Xinjiang, for example) and some criticisms of Venezuela. Probably fewer about Russia. But I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, so my criticisms are irrelevant.

Oh, and BTW- what the frak does where I'm from have to do with whether what I'm saying is wrong or right? If you MUST know, I was born and lived my entire life in the USA. What of it?



Come get your medicine darling. It is waiting for you a few posts up.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I don't have much time so I'll just start here:

""The acting president of Ukraine said that the tens of thousands of Russian troops stationed just over the border meant that "the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real". Russia, which annexed the Crimea region from Ukraine last month, has said it has no plans to invade the east". Annexed means invaded and stole in this case."


How did the Ukraine get an acting president? Well, it turns out that the previous democratically elected president - in elections praised by international observers for fairness, access and transparency - was ousted in a coup. And the acting president? Was he elected? No, he was selected - by the people with the guns - the reich wing (literally) - whose troops created 'uprising'. I think there's enough evidence to show that this is so - if you read the earlier posts.

So, you're taking the word of someone who became president as a result of a violent coup, when there are ample facts to show otherwise. How smart are you to do that?

And when exactly did Russian troops start massing. Before the coup? During the coup? Long AFTER the coup? I'm not gong to wait for you to stumble your way to a factual answer - it could take forever. But the answer is long after - after Kiev militia started moving to the border. Gee - ya think it might be prudent for Russia to protect its borders from terrorist groups crossing over?

As for Russia 'annexing' Crimea - perhaps you didn't know that the Kiev government had passed a law making speaking Russian illegal. That paramilitary groups were dragging Russians out of their homes, beating them and setting fire to the buildings ... Crimeans had every right to fear Kiev - and voted overwhelmingly, democratically, and in large numbers - to join Russia. Did Russia annex Crimea? Or did Crimea join Russia?

All this was discussed at lenght in many other threads, btw. You are just revealing your ignorance.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:11 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


He was overthrown by his people. The ones you apparently support are wearing Russian uniforms and have Russia license plates on their vehicles. And oh yea, they all wear masks. The whole world rejects your arguments. Not just me. Also, a large part of those who live in the Ukraine are immigrants from Russia.

Hey moron, the Russian troops move to the border long before the Ukrainians moved there to try and halt their advance.

Every time I think I am done I see something stupid you wrote. Once again you put the cart before the horse. The Ukrainians were acting out of anger because Russia had started the Annexation of Crimea when they offered up the vote to ban the Russian language.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?






OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:28 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?


Quote:

Miker:
I see you erased my last post. You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?






OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."


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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I have no idea what you're talking about.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:38 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
Quote:



Miker:
Quote:


I see you erased my last post. You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?





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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:38 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

How did the Ukraine get an acting president? Well, it turns out that the previous democratically elected president - in elections praised by international observers for fairness, access and transparency - was ousted in a coup.

The previous president was grotesquely corrupt, and was overthrown by popular uprising after slaying dozens of protesters with his security services. He was ousted by vote of the Ukrainian parliament - as is their constitutional right. And the Ukrainian parliament overwhelmingly backed the current interim government - as is their constitutional right. The current Kiev government was not elected but elections for a new democratically-elected government have been brought forwards. All in all we've seen the popular overthrow of a corrupt tyrant and the bringing forwards of elections - hardly a step backwards for democracy.

Quote:

As for Russia 'annexing' Crimea - perhaps you didn't know that the Kiev government had passed a law making speaking Russian illegal.

Wrong on two points. The bill was to downgrade the Russian language's official status, not to outlaw its use, and the bill was never passed, it was vetoed by the acting president (your so-called reich wing selectee): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine

Quote:

That paramilitary groups were dragging Russians out of their homes, beating them and setting fire to the buildings ...

In Crimea? I'd like to see the evidence either way.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 12:48 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

How did the Ukraine get an acting president? Well, it turns out that the previous democratically elected president - in elections praised by international observers for fairness, access and transparency - was ousted in a coup.

The previous president was grotesquely corrupt, and was overthrown by popular uprising after slaying dozens of protesters with his security services. He was ousted by vote of the Ukrainian parliament - as is their constitutional right. And the Ukrainian parliament overwhelmingly backed the current interim government - as is their constitutional right. The current Kiev government was not elected but elections for a new democratically-elected government have been brought forwards. All in all we've seen the popular overthrow of a corrupt tyrant and the bringing forwards of elections - hardly a step backwards for democracy.

Quote:

As for Russia 'annexing' Crimea - perhaps you didn't know that the Kiev government had passed a law making speaking Russian illegal.

Wrong on two points. The bill was to downgrade the Russian language's official status, not to outlaw its use, and the bill was never passed, it was vetoed by the acting president (your so-called reich wing selectee): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine

Quote:

That paramilitary groups were dragging Russians out of their homes, beating them and setting fire to the buildings ...

In Crimea? I'd like to see the evidence either way.



It's not personal. It's just war.



The Ukrainians suggested they took taking a vote out of anger banning the Russian language while they were having problems with Russia annexing Crimea. They then apologized for it. The fact that they broached the subject two years ago also only means a sovereign nation took a position another nation didn't agree with. Perfectly within Ukraine's rights. That would be like the US evading Mexico for declaring Spanish the national language. Pretty absurd huh?

Read what it says ass, your link doesn't imply what you are saying.


Here is what your link says.

Legislation on languages in Ukraine is based on its Constitution, international obligations and 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy" (before 2012, the 1989 law "On the languages in the Ukrainian SSR" was in force).

The law "On the principles of the state language policy" was aimed at giving Russian or any other minority language the status of a "regional language"; approving its use in courts, schools and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the percentage of representatives of national minorities exceeds 10% of the total population of a defined administrative district.[1][2] In practice this was mostly the case in the country's predominantly Russian-speaking southern and eastern regions.[2] Ukrainian remains the country's only official country-wide language.[2] The bill was adopted amid fistfights in the Ukrainian Parliament building on 3 July 2012. The law came into force on 10 August 2012.[1] Since then various cities and regions of Ukraine declared Russian a regional language in their jurisdictions.[3] Three minor settlements did the same for, respectively, Hungarian, Moldovan and Romanian.[4] A proposal to repeal the law was vetoed on 28 February 2014 by acting President Oleksandr Turchynov, who ordered drafting of a new law to "accommodate the interests of both eastern and western Ukraine and of all ethnic groups and minorities."[5][6]

Do you even understand what it is you are saying?

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER... Do YOU understand what you're saying? Ukraine is far away and hasn't exactly been presented objectively in the press. So, here's the recap up to now:

Ukraine is geographically divided between the forested northwest and steppes in the southeast.

Northwest Ukraine had been part of Poland and Lithuania at one time, and southeast Ukraine part of Russia since about 1600. In some SE provinces, 80%+ of the people speak Russian. Overall, about 30% speak Russian. (I've posted about all of this before.) During the early part of revolutionary Russia, somewhere in the realm of 3-5 million Ukrainian small-holding farmers were starved to death in the Holdomor. Curiously, there doesn't seem to be much reference to the event in the current situation.

The USA has spent $5 billion to establish a pro-western group, which took root in NW Ukraine, near Kiev.

Ukraine has experienced many political changes since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Since the Orange Revolution it has been ruled by oligarchs in BOTH the pro-Russian and Ukrainian camps. The gas contracts with Russia, for example, have been battled over for control by the various oligarchs. The most recent disasterous contract with Russia was negotiated, NOT by pro-Russian Yanukovich or other pro-Russians (as you might expect) but by Yulia Tymoshenko (she of the braided hair) who is, technically, an Orange Revolutionary (albeit one who is connected to the very wealthy). Much of Ukraine's debt is owed to Russia under this particular contract, the high prices of which were offest to the customer by a government subsidy ... so, goodonya, Yulia, for impoverishing the Ukrainian government!

In light of this debt, Yanukovich was faced with two competing trade agreements- (1) with Russia, which was willing to buy $15 billion of bonds (basically a loan), cut their gas price, in a non-exclusive arrangement and (2) with the EU, which was willing to loan them money but ONLY if they doubled their internal customer gas price, reduced pensions by half, and ONLY in exclusive arrangement with the EU/IMF.

Not suprisingly, Yanukovich accepted the better deal with Russia. This incensed the pro-western liberals in Kiev.

During the protests, Putin (once again) offered a tripartite deal in which the EU and Russia could both enter into trade agreements with the Ukraine, which was turned down by the EU in favor of an exclusive trade arrangement.

During the protests, a phalanx of molotov-cocktail-throwing neo-Nazis were deployed in the Maidan, with support from the EU and the USA... Victoria Nuland ("Fuck the EU") handing out cookies, John McCain routinely appearing in photo-ops with pro-Nazi Tyahnybok, and the rioters routinely described as "peaceful protesters" in the Western press.

Under pressure, Yanukovich restrained the riot police - who had only their shields and batons in the midst of the riots- offered early elections (elections were set to occur in 2015 anyway, one might ask what the urgent urgency was) and positions in the government to the rioters, who turned down the offer.

After the offer was made, the heat was turned up on the riots. People were killed by snipers - wrongly attributed to Yanukovich and most likely by the neo-Nazi provocateurs- and Kiev was taken by force, even thought early elections were on the table. (One has to wonder if the rioters had doubts about winning an election, and decided to avoid the risk of running for office.)

"Yats" - a banker by trade and Victori Nuland's first choice, was appointed as the new unelected Prime Minister, and a number of neo-Nazis from the Svoboda Party and one from Pracy Sektor were appointed to "internal security" positions in the new unelected government.

One of the first acts of the new unlected government was to remove Russia as an official language. This was quickly rescinded, but made all Russian-speakers stronlgy suspicious of the new appointed government. The people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join with Russia, and many pro-Russian people in the remainder of south and east Ukraine are trying to do the same.

The Kiev government has deployed troops, and the nation is currently in a state of civil war. The EU, the USA, and (now) the IMF have been behind the escalating violence since the beginning.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KPO- Part of this is an outright lie,
Quote:

The previous president was grotesquely corrupt, and was overthrown by popular uprising after slaying dozens of protesters with his security services.
and fits in the trashcan along with "Assad used chemical weapons" and "Saddam has WMD". I would expect you, of all people, to be more knowlegeable about actual events, and avoid repeating propaganda.

CURRENTLY

Quote:

The clip below, not for the faint of heart, shows anti-government protesters jumping from the burning Odessa trade unions house: it appears when Yanukovich was "killing" protesters in February, the west couldn't get up in arms fast enough screaming for the former president's overthrow. But now that the acting post-CIA funded coup government is doing the same thing to its own protesters, the radio silence is stunning.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-03/we-are-essentially-war-ukrain
e-admits-after-dozens-killed

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Feb 21, 2014 - The BBC reports Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and opposition leaders have signed an agreement to hold early elections.

Apparently elections didn't have the guaranteed outcome the opposition wanted - democratic elections just weren't good enough. So - on with the violent revolt.

On 21 February an impeachment bill was introduced in Ukrainian parliament,[52] but no details were provided and the Ukrainian parliament did not vote to impeach Yanukovich according to the legal procedure.[53] On 21 February Yanukovich left for Kharkov to attend a summit of south-eastern regions, according to media reports. On 22 February, Parliament voted to declare that the chair of the President is vacant due to the fact that Yanukovich left Ukraine and no longer exercises his duties. An editorial in Der Spiegel argued that the vote was unconstitutional.[54] On 22 February, Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February.[1] A warrant for the arrest of Yanukovych was issued by the new government on 24 February.
Such is your 'democratic' process.

Meanwhile the Wash Post said this about the vote to remove Yanukovych "One caveat: It's not clear whether there were enough legislators present to meet a quorum"

But hey, it kinda looked like a democratic vote. That should be enough for the stupid masses.

And that's what you're promoting as democracy. Good on you.





OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ALSO, MIKER you have not answered the question

Quote:

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?



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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:08 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


OK, I got goaded into responding by the challenge posted by the woman who started this link and I have done so. I have shown her statements to be false and baseless. I no longer feel the need to keep shinning a light on her hurtful assertions against the west and the EU.


So to SYGNYM I say" THATS " WHAT ABOUT IT".


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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:09 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:16 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
ALSO, MIKER you have not answered the question

Quote:

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?





Last response, I don't. A coup is usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by it's military. Not the case here. No, this is about the people trying to take their country back from the control of a foreign power. Russia

I get it. You don't get it. Every link by you and your supporter 1KIKI doesn't say what you claim it does. After all this I am sure you will try and tailor your arguments and regroup, but the facts are that your premise is wrong and rooted in your anger against the west and EU.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 1:20 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml


Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


Posted by Miker in response:


Here is a quote from the first link you provided as proof of your delusion that the US and EU are instigating things in the Ukraine.

"The acting president of Ukraine said that the tens of thousands of Russian troops stationed just over the border meant that "the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real". Russia, which annexed the Crimea region from Ukraine last month, has said it has no plans to invade the east". Annexed means invaded and stole in this case. Did the US and EU goad Russia into that. I am sure you can cut and paste far out opinions about that but it would still be bull.

The BBC article says nothing about The US or EU being responsible for this crises, only how they have offered support to Ukraine and put sanctions in place to deter Putin. Which makes me wonder why you offer this first link up as verifying what you clam. You know the title to this thread, which is what you are purporting to be writing about. IMF TO KIEV- FIGHT FOR EASTERN UKRAINE OR DIE. Did you think no one would follow the links and read the articles.

This is where I wound up following your second link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0
Here is a quote from there.

"The German-led team was detained on April 25 while carrying out a mission for the 57-nation Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, to which Russia, Ukraine and the United States belong". This is an organization put in place to monitor human rights and has existed long before this started in the Ukraine.

Wow, sounds like a real bunch of trouble makers to me, huh! Again this link not only does not support your claims but it suggests like the first link you are wrong and that Russia is pulling all the strings. Can't wait to see what goodies link 3 has in store.

Here is a quote from link three." The International Monetary Fund's official report on the emergency loan, released Thursday, concedes that there are deep risks to its successful implementation, including the quickly eroding economy, corruption, and the current and future government's ability to implement much-needed reforms".

Let's see. The EU the US and the IMF are not to be concerned about loaning the Ukraine 17 billion dollars while it is under assault from Russia? That they may be putting that money into the hands of pro Russian leaders, and funneled out of the country if they gain the upper hand. We are talking 17 billion dollars and they are trying to safe guard it from the wrong people getting hold of it. Makes perfect sense to me. The point is that the world is trying to help and not screw themselves at the same time. It is common sense, and once again the article says nothing to support your claims that the US or EU is behind Ukraine's troubles, but instead it suggests we are trying to help.

Ok I am not even going to follow the last link because I can read what the link says. Here is what it says to me. News flash, Ukraine stands up for it's rights to be a sovereign nation and begins to fight back.

I decided to speak to this after reading how sassy you became after I decided to stop arguing with a Idealist. This opinion you have posted that you claim to back up with facts, is not. You have posted links to articles that don't support your claims that the US and EU are behind the escalating violence. Yes there is all kinds of problems with the Ukrainian military because of it's history. However, none of what is being reported by reputable sources points to the US or the EU as you claim, to being behind the aggressions taking place. What the links provide is just more prof of the bios towards the west that exists in your mind. Here are two quotes from what you wrote to show how screwed up you are. "It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia". First line you write." At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this". First line third paragraph. Man you are all over the map trying to find ways to make the victims out to be the bad guys. By the way, it is funny how you call the Ukrainians fighting for their freedom from corruption and Russia Neo Nazis, which is exactly what Putin calls them. Excuse me I must go now and cut and paste my fantasy garden.

Dos ve donya comrade: you keep on believing.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:04 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER... Do YOU understand what you're saying? Ukraine is far away and hasn't exactly been presented objectively in the press. So, here's the recap up to now:

Ukraine is geographically divided between the forested northwest and steppes in the southeast.

Northwest Ukraine had been part of Poland and Lithuania at one time, and southeast Ukraine part of Russia since about 1600. In some SE provinces, 80%+ of the people speak Russian. Overall, about 30% speak Russian. (I've posted about all of this before.) During the early part of revolutionary Russia, somewhere in the realm of 3-5 million Ukrainian small-holding farmers were starved to death in the Holdomor. Curiously, there doesn't seem to be much reference to the event in the current situation.

The USA has spent $5 billion to establish a pro-western group, which took root in NW Ukraine, near Kiev.

Ukraine has experienced many political changes since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Since the Orange Revolution it has been ruled by oligarchs in BOTH the pro-Russian and Ukrainian camps. The gas contracts with Russia, for example, have been battled over for control by the various oligarchs. The most recent disasterous contract with Russia was negotiated, NOT by pro-Russian Yanukovich or other pro-Russians (as you might expect) but by Yulia Tymoshenko (she of the braided hair) who is, technically, an Orange Revolutionary (albeit one who is connected to the very wealthy). Much of Ukraine's debt is owed to Russia under this particular contract, the high prices of which were offest to the customer by a government subsidy ... so, goodonya, Yulia, for impoverishing the Ukrainian government!

In light of this debt, Yanukovich was faced with two competing trade agreements- (1) with Russia, which was willing to buy $15 billion of bonds (basically a loan), cut their gas price, in a non-exclusive arrangement and (2) with the EU, which was willing to loan them money but ONLY if they doubled their internal customer gas price, reduced pensions by half, and ONLY in exclusive arrangement with the EU/IMF.

Not suprisingly, Yanukovich accepted the better deal with Russia. This incensed the pro-western liberals in Kiev.

During the protests, Putin (once again) offered a tripartite deal in which the EU and Russia could both enter into trade agreements with the Ukraine, which was turned down by the EU in favor of an exclusive trade arrangement.

During the protests, a phalanx of molotov-cocktail-throwing neo-Nazis were deployed in the Maidan, with support from the EU and the USA... Victoria Nuland ("Fuck the EU") handing out cookies, John McCain routinely appearing in photo-ops with pro-Nazi Tyahnybok, and the rioters routinely described as "peaceful protesters" in the Western press.

Under pressure, Yanukovich restrained the riot police - who had only their shields and batons in the midst of the riots- offered early elections (elections were set to occur in 2015 anyway, one might ask what the urgent urgency was) and positions in the government to the rioters, who turned down the offer.

After the offer was made, the heat was turned up on the riots. People were killed by snipers - wrongly attributed to Yanukovich and most likely by the neo-Nazi provocateurs- and Kiev was taken by force, even thought early elections were on the table. (One has to wonder if the rioters had doubts about winning an election, and decided to avoid the risk of running for office.)

"Yats" - a banker by trade and Victori Nuland's first choice, was appointed as the new unelected Prime Minister, and a number of neo-Nazis from the Svoboda Party and one from Pracy Sektor were appointed to "internal security" positions in the new unelected government.

One of the first acts of the new unlected government was to remove Russia as an official language. This was quickly rescinded, but made all Russian-speakers stronlgy suspicious of the new appointed government. The people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join with Russia, and many pro-Russian people in the remainder of south and east Ukraine are trying to do the same.

The Kiev government has deployed troops, and the nation is currently in a state of civil war. The EU, the USA, and (now) the IMF have been behind the escalating violence since the beginning.



Check out what you write, two countries, Ukraine and Russia. I don't care where the woods are. Crimea is underneath Ukraine in the Black Sea across from Russia. Two countries, Ukraine and Russia up until a few months ago.



Your arguments ignore that the boundaries were agreed upon by both countries before this happened. What the boundaries 100 years ago were is just a back story to the history of the two nations. Russia signed an agreement with Ukraine to respect these boundaries if they agreed to give up their Nukes which they did.



That agreement signed by Russia is all that is needed to show who is in the wrong here. In other words, What the Ukraine does in none of Russia's business. Everything else you say is just smoke and mirrors to deflect from this.

How do you like them apples?

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 3:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Last response, I don't. A coup is usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by it's military. Not the case here."

So, is that what you're going to base your argument on? It wasn't a coup b/c a coup is USUALLY done by the military? WIKI would disagree with you about your false distinction. While a coup is USUALLY done by the military, it doesn't have to be. Coups can come from any direction.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:02 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Last response, I don't. A coup is usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by it's military. Not the case here."

So, is that what you're going to base your argument on? It wasn't a coup b/c a coup is USUALLY done by the military? WIKI would disagree with you about your false distinction. While a coups is USUALLY done by the military, it doesn't have to be. Coups can come from any direction.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?






OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



I answered your question but will answer it again. NOT A COUP, but a revolution. In a democracy the people decide. They decided. It is their country and they can choose to do that if they wish. It is called impeachment.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


In a democracy the people decide. They decided.

No, they didn't. Look up further. There was no democratic process involved. You don't have command of the facts.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?





OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:17 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
In a democracy the people decide. They decided.


No, they didn't. Look up further. There was no democratic process involved. You don't have command of the facts.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

b]



Posted by Miker:
You just can't let it go. It is not a coup. It is a revolution to kick out a corrupt regime and one representing Russia's best interest and not theirs. That is what started this. They want closer ties to the west and not just Russia. Give it up.

"Overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution

You are like Russia. You think you can dictate to the Ukraine if you don't like that they kick a criminal out of office. Just look at the way the guy was living. He was robbing his country men blind. Who the fuck are you to tell them they can't?

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And all you have are your fantasies to back up your assertions. You have no facts.

Yanukovych and the opposition agreed to early elections. That is a fact. The protests escalated into violence due to the Nazi militias. That is a fact. Yanukovych left Kiev for a meeting in eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. There was some talk of impeaching Yanukovych in the parliament but it fell through and no vote was taken. That is a fact. Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February in a vote that was called illegal due to lack of a quorum. That is a fact.


So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:33 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And all you have are your fantasies to back up your assertions. You have no facts.

Yanukovych and the opposition agreed to early elections. That is a fact. The protests escalated into violence due to the Nazi militias. That is a fact. Yanukovych left Kiev for a meeting in eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. There was some talk of impeaching Yanukovych in the parliament but it fell through and no vote was taken. That is a fact. Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February in a vote that was called illegal due to lack of a quorum. That is a fact.


So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



Posted by Miker:
You just can't let it go. It is not a coup. It is a revolution to kick out a corrupt regime and one representing Russia's best interest and not theirs. That is what started this. They want closer ties to the west and not just Russia. Give it up.

"Overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution

You are like Russia. You think you can dictate to the Ukraine if you don't like that they kick a criminal out of office. Just look at the way the guy was living. He was robbing his country men blind. Who the fuck are you to tell them they can't?

"In 1994 Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power. That same year Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear arsenal with the promise from the United States and Russia that neither country would use force or threaten action against the newly independent nation". http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/03/17/ukraine-crimea-iran-nukes/

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

YOU are like a fascist.

All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections where people could have democratically voted to keep him in or kick him out were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.

And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:52 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

YOU are like a fascist.

All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.

And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."



Posted by Miker:
You just can't let it go. It is not a coup. It is a revolution to kick out a corrupt regime and one representing Russia's best interest and not theirs. That is what started this. They want closer ties to the west and not just Russia. Give it up.

"Overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution

You are like Russia. You think you can dictate to the Ukraine if you don't like that they kick a criminal out of office. Just look at the way the guy was living. He was robbing his country men blind. Who the fuck are you to tell them they can't?

"In 1994 Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power. That same year Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear arsenal with the promise from the United States and Russia that neither country would use force or threaten action against the newly independent nation". http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/03/17/ukraine-crimea-iran-nukes/

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I see you can't answer my questions or refute my facts. You can't even muster more than a brain-dead reply. Well done. You look like an idiot. And a fascist. I really do like it when I get to peg people.
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

YOU are like a fascist.

All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections where people could have democratically voted to keep him in or kick him out were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.

And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."


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Saturday, May 3, 2014 4:59 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity


Everyone else that reads our posts will make up their own minds. I am confident you being an asshole 1kiki has been sufficiently documented.

BYE!

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 5:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes, well, you still haven't been able to refute my facts or answer my questions. Meanwhile, you adamantly stand on the side of Nazis with guns. I hope you're proud of it, because you're stuck with it.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 5:11 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
Everyone else that reads our posts will make up their own minds. I am confident you being an asshole 1kiki has been sufficiently documented.

BYE!



Once 1KIKI and SIGYM make up their minds you are not going to change them. They can be just as bad the RAPPY and JONG.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 5:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes, don't let the facts I've presented, or your lack of them, or Miker's lack of them, sway you in any way.

"And that's all you've got? Personal insults? Being in a snit? You'd be a lot more convincing if you had some credible facts to back up your claims instead of a childish tantrum."

As an aside - being called names doesn't hurt my feelings in any way. I actually take pride in pissing off the people I piss off.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 5:20 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Apparently elections didn't have the guaranteed outcome the opposition wanted - democratic elections just weren't good enough. So - on with the violent revolt.

Which is strange when you think about it. If they resent being ruled by the provisional government in Kiev, why not just wait a month to vote for a government that will represent the full democratic wishes of the Ukrainian people? The pro-separatist movement has less of the hallmarks of a spontaneous, grass-roots popular uprising than it does of a highly-organised Russia-directed insurgency. The same kind of thing Russia did a few months ago in Crimea.

Quote:

Such is your 'democratic' process.

Try this section:

"[59] The Parliament, or Verkhovna Rada, voted 328–0 in favour of impeaching Yanukovych and scheduled new presidential elections for 25 May."

And elsewhere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government#Parliamentary_voting

Quote:

Meanwhile the Wash Post said this about the vote to remove Yanukovych "One caveat: It's not clear whether there were enough legislators present to meet a quorum"

That article is dated 20th Feb, two days before the impeachment vote cited above. I guess the failure of the vote in its first instance gave the fugitive Yanukovych time to flee the country. Any problems with the impeachment vote 328-0 on Saturday 22nd February?

Quote:

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists

Is that how you describe the Maidan revolution? Seriously?

Signy:

Quote:

e the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department)

That's not what Nuland has said by the way. She said the USA has spent $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991 to promote democratic institutions. She has specifically denied the US providing any funding for the Maidan uprising. Is there any evidence contradicting her?



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 5:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Let's go back to beginnings and talk about it all instead of picking and choosing events - shall we?

Where this started to become problematic IMO was after early elections were agreed to. Elections would have peacefully and - more importantly DEMOCRATICALLY - allowed the entire country to weigh in on whether or not Yanukovych should continue in office. If he was the issue, they had the opportunity to get rid of him. Peacefully. Democratically.

But the opposition, and especially the Nazis, decided not to wait for democratic elections. Instead, they escalated armed violence and illegal political maneuvering.

So, do you support the outcome as representative of the will of the Ukraine people across the ENTIRE COUNTRY? Or do you think people were disenfranchised from expressing their choice because there was no vote?



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 6:12 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Nazis? You are ignoring the complete history of the Svobada party. You also forget that the Ukrainian Parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power. It was the Parliament who also put Olexander Turchynov in place as the interim president.

The opposition did not what to wait for early elections because that would have given Yanukovych to take Russian money and basically ensure some ties to Moscow in the future.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 6:12 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Nazis? You are ignoring the complete history of the Svobada party. You also forget that the Ukrainian Parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from power. It was the Parliament who also put Olexander Turchynov in place as the interim president.

The opposition did not what to wait for early elections because that would have given Yanukovych to take Russian money and basically ensure some ties to Moscow in the future.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, May 3, 2014 6:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?

Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?

How many of you were surprised by 9-11?

Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?

Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?




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Saturday, May 3, 2014 6:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It was the Parliament who also put Olexander Turchynov in place as the interim president.
It was a Parliament which was missing the 35% of its representatives from the south and east who fled because they felt unsafe. Yep, democracy. Ain't it grand???

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