REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama the blowhard

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 04:39
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 14487
PAGE 2 of 3

Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:01 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
it appears to come from a deep seeded hatred of this country.


Sorry MIKER, this was the last nail here, whether intentional or not, I'm not discussing junk with you again here.
Yes, I AM a grammar Nazi. To this extent, anyway.


You are no grammar Nazi. If you were you would not have been able to read more than a couple posts from him since he started. If you want to claim spelling Nazi, that might be more appropo.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:05 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

And you still haven't answered my questions.



Nor have you answered mine.

@ Jongs - I saw that. I had hoped it was some spoof, or interwebs hoax. Apparently, not.

That has to be the pussiest work out - EVER. I've seen chicks pump more iron than that in the gym. Do Malia and Sasha know daddy has their play weights ?


Hannity has had the link up for a while, how did you miss it?
Somebody should sue him for not wearing his tricycle helmet and setting a bad and unsafe example.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:43 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Ahem. I really don't like being misrepresented. What I in fact noted was that these events were based on reality.

So, I have to ask - does the question 'who started it' mean anything in your opinion of right and wrong? Because if I can show the US 'started it' without provocation, I would think it means the US was wrong. Would you? Similarly, if I can show the US took something that wasn't theirs, would that prove the US in the wrong to you?



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 2:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER

Your first concern us that I'm "one sided?"

Huh, because that's exactly my problem with you! In your opinion, apparently, the USA does NOTHING wrong.

Or maybe what you want to hear is how we were 'forced' into all of those heinous acts by circumstances... they were going to go 'communist', they were a source of drugs, they were a source of terrorism. They made us do it. "He started it"

Okay, yanno what? My answer to that is "whatever". I'll even concede that point for the moment ('Why' we did what we did, in historical context) to get to the point I was trying to discuss, which is

No matter WHAT the reason for us invading or destabilizing/ replacing governments, once we were in charge of that nation's future (thru whoever we put in charge) we could have made those nations BETTER than before. Instead, what happened in nearly all cases, they became WORSE: poorer, more violent, less educated, less healthy, less democratic, producing more drugs. Geezer himself even posted an example, right here! http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58154

All under our aegis.

Now, we're either really, REALLY bad at managing our conquests, or white man's burden/ anticommunism/ war on drugs/ democratization/ war on terror/ R2P/ spreading peace and prosperity/ (fill in the blank here) was never really the reason we took over those nations to begin with.

Also,
Quote:

That is not the world so judging it from that perspective [utopia] is not helpful. I look at it like a bell curve and where do we as a nation sit on that curve. I feel
You feel a lot of things, MIKER, that's clear, but that's a feeling based on a belief.
Quote:

this is a more responsible and accurate way of judging events. I find it outrageous Signym gets to make comments like
Wow, I "get to" make comments? Do you mean that you think freedom of speech is outrageous? Yanno what? If you think my comments are outrageous, you should read one of those links, back to what GINO used to say.
Quote:

Those kind of statements are the norm for Signym. There is absolutely no way to verify any of that, much less all of it.
Of course there is. It's the same process by which historians say "Approximately six million Jews were killed by Hitler", or "Mao's policies starved at least 20 million people". I started with a list of US "interventions", found the historically-accepted death estimates (killed by weapons) and added them up. It's probably a conservative estimate because it doesn't include death by disease or starvation.

I urge you to do the same thing. You don't have to be hostage to my figures.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 2:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G
Quote:

Answer: His analysis was of you and your approach to many topics, but specifically to Ukraine. It does seem a might [sic] black and white. Considering there are humans with a great deal of emotion and sell-interest on both sides, and how the only land grabbing that has happened so far has been by Russia, it's hard to believe any assessment that is so one sided.
I'm black and white about Ukraine??? I'm to one who has been consistently saying that Ukraine is a divided nation, that opinions on whether to join the EU, join even more closely with Russia, or stay in the middle are all over the spectrum. That a significant minority (30-35%) of the people did NOT want to join the EU trade region, particularly with the IMF's austerity as part of the package. That some of them are pro-western liberals but some of them are fascists.

As far as land-grabs, you are once again seeing everything only from the western perspective. Ukraine as part of the EU trade bloc seems only right and natural to you, not at all a land-grab by the west. From the other side of the border, however, this was a threat to Russia's naval base and an area for NATO expansion- it was definitely a western land-grab. Which it was- fostered by the EU and the USA, provided political cover, money, and now military weapons and merc/ CIA/FBI support. Crimea voted itself out. It was a vote taken under the eye of western observers and in all probability reflects the will of the people.

In reality, there is only one side.

But real life calls.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 3:51 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Your first concern us that I'm "one sided?"

You ARE one sided, Signy.
The WRONG side. The side of TRUTH.
This is unacceptable. You need to pick a team, and BACK IT UP no matter what. That's how the game is played. You can't roam around the buffet table picking out truth here & truth there as it pleases you, you have to accept the WHOLE menu from a single chosen restaurant monopoly!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 5:40 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 5:50 PM

CHRISISALL


You can read the list. You can research anything on it you are not already aware of. You can cry like a baby. You can whine like a child.
All this is within the scope of your abilities.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 5:54 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Here, I took the last one on the list & googled it:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/07/yemen.missiles/

Quote:

Yemeni government officials had said the December 17, 2009, attack in southern Yemen targeted an al Qaeda training camp, according to Amnesty International. The attack killed 55 people, including 14 alleged members of the terrorist group, the organization said. Civilians killed included 14 women and 21 children, Amnesty International said.


See how easy that is? And if you don't like one source, you can compare that report to a dozen others.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:14 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'll take B Bob!

Because America is always killing people for no good reason.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:25 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I was making fun of the choices you posted. Duh.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:27 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:31 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I asked you what would constitute proof. I asked you if ONCE YOU HAD IT you would be capable of learning from facts. I'm not going to go through the effort if you do a rappy or a geezer.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:25 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:33 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I asked you what would constitute proof.

That's precisely it, NOTHING constitutes proof. Amnesty International is a bunch of liars.
Any source will be either the Lefty MSM, or Socialist America-hating propaganda-pushers. That's the end of the road for fools who can't do the research their own selves. Pick a team & root for 'em. Buddha forbid you do some READING or some spade work or some comparative analysis or some such difficult stuff like that. And it's SO hard to trace down events and conjure motive based on economic perks. Numbers are hard to add & subtract. And Oh my- the hard words.
And lest we forget, Jesus was a Capitalist.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:37 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


prof?

Btw what do you think I posted as proof? You claim you've seen it. Yet I never posted any such. So go ahead. Show me. What did I post as proof?

Otherwise, I'm done. You've got nothing and now you're arguing about trivial stuff to avoid the topic.

Very trollish of you.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:50 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


definition of a troll: "and I refuse to chase others in a mindless, endless circle of " debate " on the internet. If I 'bitch out' of a discussion, I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, my views have been presented, and there's nothing left to add."



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:00 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Hannity has had the link up for a while, how did you miss it?
Somebody should sue him for not wearing his tricycle helmet and setting a bad and unsafe example.



Rarely do I watch Sean. His whole persona is too grating for my likes. I can take his tone for only a few minutes, and then I have to go sip some earl grey tea.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:58 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by MIKER:
I have been speaking to your hatred of this country throughout this entire thread. The fact that you don't answer that shows me to be correct.

Hey MIKER, I'm really sorry here, I came to the conclusion that you weren't a Rappy sockpuppet...


You erred there. This thread: more of what I expect from IT.



*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:09 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:25 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
You erred there.

My bad.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, June 8, 2014 2:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G, I wanted to add (before real-life intervened) ...

Also, Ukraine looks like a (western) land-grab to the USA State Department and DoD as well.That's why Nuland (State) was picking Presidents months before the election. The only people to whom Ukraine does NOT look like a western land-grab are western liberals, who believe that the entire world is made of western liberals yearning to emerge and break free.


AFA where I would move ... yanno, I don't have to answer EVERY question that's put to me, especially personal ones. I find your insistence that I answer that question both rude and ill-intentioned.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, June 8, 2014 2:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MIKER left and took all of his comments with him?

Well, I hope he learned something,

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, June 8, 2014 3:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER left and took all of his comments with him?


How.... interesting.

Bye bye KIRKULES, I'd say it was nice to see you again, if, yanno, it was.

So now we know, cause I recall him doing exactly the same thing when he stormed out in a huff...

-F

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, June 8, 2014 9:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I prolly wouldn't insist in Geezer answering the question as to whether or when he would marry his long-term partner. It's really his business, not mine.


The problem with answering that question is, if I pick an English-speaking nation - perhaps one of the commonwealth nations- you'd say that I didn't really believe in what I was saying. If I mentioned a few socialist nations, you say AHA! I knew all along you were a hater of America! Suffice it to say that we looked at a number of smaller nations, some English-speaking and some not. I think I would be OK with living here to the end of my days, yanno- fighting the good fight- but I'm really afraid for our daughter. As a nation and as a culture, I think the USA has lost its way. We've raced headlong into being a brutal, hyper-militarized, over-surveilled free-for-all, where anything is tolerated except resistance to the corporate state.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, June 8, 2014 9:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FREM

MIKER = Kirkules, eh?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 9, 2014 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Here's an interesting question (maybe). Given all the anger at those who disapprove of America's actions, would anyone like to note any nation which was rich and powerful enough to do so, and which had a mighty military, which HASN'T behaved in pretty much the same manner as America has?

It's certainly easy enough to mention MANY nations who, at the peak of their power, behaved worse than America...but have any behaved better?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 9, 2014 9:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Here's an interesting question (maybe). Given all the anger at those who disapprove of America's actions, would anyone like to note any nation which was rich and powerful enough to do so, and which had a mighty military, which HASN'T behaved in pretty much the same manner as America has?

It's certainly easy enough to mention MANY nations who, at the peak of their power, behaved worse than America... but have any behaved better?



" if the USA doesn't lead, someone else will. "

Kinda the mission statement for PNAC folks, ain't it ?

I for one strongly believe others would act worse. Much worse.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 9, 2014 9:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G

I don't want my personal situation to be a factor in what I consider the larger argument of USA hegemony and militarism.

Yes, we looked at the Scandinavian countries, also Iceland, Costa Rica, New Zealand, and others. But it doesn't matter WHICH country we might prefer, they all have pretty much the same immigration policies. Those policies would deem us too old and with too much medical baggage- including our disabled daughter- to be a welcome addition to their economy.

I get it, I really do. Why would any nation want people who have no possibility of future contribution to the society? Nations with generous health and social benefits would soon be overwhelmed by dependents. It's only the USA that expects to be an endless sink for emigrants.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 9, 2014 10:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Here's an interesting question (maybe). Given all the anger at those who disapprove of America's actions, would anyone like to note any nation which was rich and powerful enough to do so, and which had a mighty military, which HASN'T behaved in pretty much the same manner as America has?
Currently? China, Russia, India, Germany, Japan.... in fact, nearly everybody.

China - even though it has an economy nearly as large as the USA (by some measures larger) it has ONE military base outside of its borders, in India, opened in 2011.

The former Soviet Union, even though it had a large economy and military, in most places that it colonized it opened schools, medical clinics, and built roads. Living standards went UP for the average person. In contrast, the USA puts in banks and military installations, and the living standards of the average person DROPS.

The current Russia, which has about 10 military bases/installations outside of its borders, compared to the USA's 800.

India, a billion+ people, and altho poverty-stricken could field a considerable army if it so chose.

The answer to your question, NIKI, is right in Obama's speech. But perhaps you didn't catch all of the implications of what he said.

If everyone were 'as bad as' the USA, they would be fielding a foreign military 'as large as' the USA, or at least proportionate to their economies. THEY DON'T. The USA military is LARGER THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. The USA economy? Not so much! That shows a strongly disproportionate commitment to militarily dominating the rest of the world.

It's demonstrated by simple arithmetic. Liberals! Sheesh![/snark]

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 9, 2014 10:34 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I agree with everything you said Siggs....

GWB was the former propagator of such.

Somehow, I'm the unreasonable one because I drink....

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I used to get a flinch reaction every time GWB spoke, and quite frankly I've gotten to the same point with Obama. Here is the transcript of his speech at West Point.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/05/28/transcript-video-obama-lays-out-f
oreign-policy-west-point-commencement-speech


I couldn't help but notice the wandering hypocrisy, like he had lost the thread of his own propaganda ...

Quote:

In fact, by most measures America has rarely been stronger relative to the rest of the world. Those who argue otherwise — who suggest that America is in decline or has seen its global leadership slip away — are either misreading history or engaged in partisan politics. Think about it. Our military has no peer.


Yep, we spend more on our military than the rest of the world COMBINED. Nobody else - not even Russia!- has bases ALL OVER the world!

Quote:

America continues to attract striving immigrants.
Oh, that was STRIVING? I thought that was STARVING.

Quote:

Russia’s aggression towards former Soviet states unnerves capitals in Europe
Yeah, because Russia has troops, bases, and missiles all over Europe. (not) And yet, somehow, Russia is the aggressor.

Quote:

From Brazil to India, rising middle classes compete with us, and governments seek a greater say in global forums.
Yes, god help us if other governments have a greater say!

Quote:

The question we face, the question each of you will face, is not whether America will lead but how we will lead
Because, yanno, whatever we decide is right for the world is right for the world.

Quote:

not just to secure our peace and prosperity but also extend peace and prosperity around the globe.
HAHAHAHA! We've been blowing this smoke for 70 years or more. Replaced 50 governments. Somehow, we still haven't gotten this right!

Quote:

Today, according to self-described realists, conflicts in Syria or Ukraine or the Central African Republic are not ours to solve.
In particular, they're not ours to start.

Quote:

Here’s my bottom line: America must always lead on the world stage. If we don’t, no one else will. The military ... is, and always will be, the backbone of that leadership.
Again, we have the right to determine what's right for the rest of the world? And if they don't agree, we turn on the force?

Quote:

This weekend, Ukrainians voted by the millions. Yesterday, I spoke to their next president. We don’t know how the situation will play out, and there will remain grave challenges ahead, but standing with our allies on behalf of international order, working with international institutions, has given a chance for the Ukrainian people to choose their future — without us firing a shot.
The Ukrainians did that for us, thanks to pressure from that organ of American dominance- the IMF.

Quote:

... a third aspect of American leadership, and that is our effort to strengthen and enforce international order. After World War II, America had the wisdom to shape institutions to keep the peace and support human progress, from NATO and the United Nations, to the World Bank and I.M.F. These institutions are not perfect, but they have been a force multiplier. They reducing the need for unilateral American action and increase restraint among other nations.
In other words, these institutions have been the United States' tools of foreign and economic domination.

Quote:

I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.
Yep, I kinda noticed that...

Quote:

we’re putting in place new restrictions on how America collects and uses intelligence, because we will have fewer partners and be less effective if a perception takes hold that we’re conducting surveillance against ordinary citizens.
If Snowden hadn't come forward, the WH would STILL be OK with the NSA collecting information on... well... everyone. In fact, the NSA is STILL collecting information on everyone. Nothing has changed.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I wasn't speak of just military bases, Sig, I was talking about BEHAVIOR. Nowadays, military isn't the only way to wield power in the world, it's only one aspect of it and, in a way, not the most effective one. Beyond that, you have yet to list any country that has an economy as big or bigger than ours and has been for long enough to create a military the size of ours, the political influence worldwide to be "asked" to put military bases in other countries, and much more. It's not as simple as your response indicates, in my opinion.

China/Russia/etc. are certainly involved in cyber warfare, political pressure and other things which wield undue influence in the rest of the world. That was my point.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It IS just that simple, NIKI.The military is how you impose your will on any other nation. Do you think that the USA would have gotten to this point of economic and financial dominance WITHOUT the military? Here's one example: That deal that we made with Saudi Arabia... the one about the petrodollar that was made in 1971... the one that made the USA dollar the world reserve currency... was made on the back of complete USA military dominance of the middle east, the kind of dominance that allowed us to CREATE a leadership that never existed before i.e.- the Saudi Royal Family. Originally they were nothing more than a tribe like the other tribes on the Saudi Peninsula until the USA came along and backed them as the leadership.

Nearly every nation that we conquered militarily was in order to gain dominance for our banks and corporations. We were quite successful at it too, robbing the indigenous wealth and labor power from our neighbors to the south before turning our attention to the Philippines, SE Asia, the ME, and elsewhere.

Here's an example of one economically dominant kingdom which DIDN'T do what we did: China has been a self-identified kingdom since long before the Christ was born. It could have conquered much of southern Asia and the Middle East, if it so chose. In fact, one of the emperors began the process of colonization by sending out fleets of Chinese ships. The subsequent emperor, however, burned them to the waterline.

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/f/zhenghefaq.htm

I could point to many kingdoms of the past- advanced civilizations such as Mojenjo-Daro and the Minoan cultures which existed far longer than the USA has (so far)- which did NOT engage in militaristic domination. I'm sure that if I were a true historian and knew more of African, South American, Asian and other histories, I could point to more.

And of nations today, my point - which you may not have understood- is that if these nations were "as bad as" the United States, they would be engaging in militarism at least on an economically proportionate scale as the USA but they don't. That is why USA militarism is so disproportionately large, compared to economic ranking.

Yeah, there've been other empires as militaristic as ours in the past (Roman and British empires come to mind) but they weren't the ONLY advanced, economically dominant cultures around, and not everyone became an international predator.

You always like to think that It's not really that bad but the reality is that it's far worse than you think, especially if you happen to be the one ground under the bootheel.

AFA cyberwarfare... pffffttt! If our NSA was really interested in computer security, they would have NEVER insisted on building so many backdoors into the dominant operating systems. It IS possible to have real security, you just need to know what you're doing and have a system-wide approach to achieving it.

I gotta say, IMHO the world's worst problem right now is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 12, 2014 8:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm not going to debate you, it's not worth either of our time; the days when I was willing to spend the time getting into a detailed debate here are long past. And I believe your opinions are too firmly entrenched for us to have a reasonable debate. I'm merely making the point that our nation's behavior isn't that much different from others, in perspective.

You don't know me: "You always like to think that It's not really that bad" is your judgment, and, as usual when it has come to me, untrue. I'm well aware of our government's negatives, and I freely admit "the world's worst problem RIGHT NOW is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over." That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.

I agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 7:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Relatively speaking I'm sure, Brenda, but again, I was talking perspective...and into that go so many things, including how rich we got from WWII and how it thrust us into a power position and so many others. I never said we weren't the worst currently, just not the only ones. Who knows, in another century, could be you guys, or Magons', as our empire weakens, or anyone else, is what I'm trying to say. Throughout human history, as nations grow, as they get rich and powerful, they exert that power. I don't think there's an exception to that...yet. Certainly I could be wrong.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 1:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.
Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.

You/re right, NIKI. Your opinion is too firmly entrenched to be changed by anything as simple as mere facts.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 2:02 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.
Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.

You/re right, NIKI. Your opinion is too firmly entrenched to be changed by anything as simple as mere facts.



What history is that?

si shen

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 5:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


China, the Harrapan civilization, and the Minoan civilization. Quite possibly more, it's just that I'm not a historian.

I don't think that great economic powers inevitably become great military powers and colonizers, so while the USA seems to be following in the tradition of the western colonialism, in the spectrum of great civilizations it's on militarized end of the spectrum.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 5:55 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
China, the Harrapan civilization, and the Minoan civilization. Quite possibly more, it's just that I'm not a historian.




Harappan Civilization: Existed in ca. 3000-1500 BC. Of course the Harappan Civilization did not try and influence its neighbors too much, it would be a long walk.


Minoan civilization: The island of Crete, is an Island and had I guess what you could call a fleet back in the days of Plato.



China: If you mean back then, In 206 BC, when the Han dynasty was founded,
China stretched from modern Shenyang (some 500 km north of Beijing) in the north to around Guilin in the south; from the Pacific in the east to well past Chongqing in the west. Until Russia laid claim to Far East Siberia, China was the largest country in the world.

How do you think it got that big?

If you mean China today it is starting to grab territory. Look what is happening off the coasts of Vietnam and Japan. They did not have the resources in the more recent past to get involved around the world.

Quote:


China: http://countrystudies.us/china/83.htm
Despite the burst of progress in the 1980s, the Chinese economy still shared many basic characteristics with the economies of other developing countries. The gross national product per capita in 1986 was -Y849, or about US$228 (at the 1986 exchange rate), reflecting the low average level of labor productivity. As in many countries that did not begin sustained industrialization efforts until the middle of the twentieth century, the majority of the Chinese labor force--over 60 percent--was still employed in agriculture, which produced around 30 percent of the value of national output. Agricultural work still was performed primarily by hand. Modern equipment was in general use in industry but was largely typified by outdated designs and low levels of efficiency.



I wonder why you would make accusatory statements about a country being overly aggressive when compared to the rest of the world, and then admit you do not know too much about the history of the rest of the world?


si shen

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 7:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME. (I posted about that and provided a link earlier)

The civilizations that I mentioned were advanced and economically powerful for their day. The Harappan civilization and its cities covered a large part of the Indus valley, and traded far and wide, with Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Unlike many of the extant civilizations, the Harappans didn't field any armies or engage in conquests. Because of the intricate seals and standardized weight sets, it appears the Harappan civilization cities depended primarily on trade of surplus agricultural and artisan goods. The same could be said for Minoan civilization, which depended on trade, not conquest, for its wealth.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 7:24 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME.



I'm sorry, I did not realize you were talking about a small part of their history and ignoring the rest.

My mistake

si shen

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 13, 2014 9:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'm sorry, I did not realize you were talking about a small part of their history and ignoring the rest.
I was responding to NIKI, who said
Quote:

That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.
I was merely giving examples of civilizations which had the wealth and opportunity, and chose not to, at various points in history not to become conquerors (not at ALL points in history)

As it turns out, NIKI and I agree on one thing, and that is
Quote:

the world's worst problem RIGHT NOW is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over.
This isn't short-term aberration from out history, however, but unfortunately describes the arc of almost our entire development, which began in slavery and genocide and has "progressed" through hemispheric and then world domination and exploitation.

And what's the point whether other nations would behave the same or not? We criticize Nazi Germany, do we not? We don't try to excuse their behavior because they acted just like some other horrific conquering nation. I hear a lot of excuses about our militarism and inequity. From the right, it's all about fear and greed. From liberals, its to support President Milquetoast, who has betrayed them in every possible way. Nothing ever changes.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
What happened to 'America first '
Mon, August 3, 2020 13:43 - 118 posts
A remarkable and nightmarish scene playing out in Portland should terrify anyone who cares about the US constitution
Mon, August 3, 2020 13:41 - 328 posts
Oh look, ANOTHER thing that Russians didn't do! (Skripal poisoning)
Mon, August 3, 2020 13:39 - 10 posts
Elections 2020
Mon, August 3, 2020 13:38 - 911 posts
Some Covid-19 thoughts
Mon, August 3, 2020 13:34 - 1096 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!!!
Mon, August 3, 2020 13:13 - 5190 posts
Where have all the Cowyboys gone?
Mon, August 3, 2020 12:34 - 1 posts
The price of automation
Mon, August 3, 2020 07:26 - 6 posts
Python bounty hunters are latest tool in Florida eradication effort
Sun, August 2, 2020 23:18 - 26 posts
The Polling Aggregates 101
Sun, August 2, 2020 22:12 - 21 posts
Trump's 'Space Force' unveils its new Logo
Sun, August 2, 2020 22:02 - 3 posts
new deadly human-to-human-transmissible coronavirus emerges out of China
Sun, August 2, 2020 22:00 - 2037 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL