REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Gender and Equality

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Friday, June 20, 2014 16:20
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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 11:50 AM

BYTEMITE


This isn't so much a RWED as it is a potentially thoughtful discussion, with, yes, a deliberately provocative title. Hi! Made you look. You know who you are.

So here's the big question: If you could swap genders for a day, what would you do?

(And since I have a sneaking suspicion what the answers will be, I will now vacate the thread and post a follow up about the results later and the implications that are suggested by all this)

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:19 PM

CHRISISALL


Hmmm, I'd walk where little girls shouldn't, looking all defenceless & wait to have some idiot try to rape me then beat the living shit out of him with my martial art skilz.

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:27 PM

THGRRI


I would chose not to.

si shen



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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:45 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Chris - you might be beating up some woman trying out being a guy for a day.

That's bent.

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 1:29 PM

THGRRI


Watch the movie Switch.


Ellen Barkin
Amanda Brooks
Jimmy Smits
Walter Stone
JoBeth Williams
Lorraine Bracco
Sheila Faxton



si shen



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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 4:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hmmm, I'd walk where little girls shouldn't, looking all defenceless & wait to have some idiot try to rape me then beat the living shit out of him with my martial art skilz.


Damn, Chris beat me to it.

When the happy skipping girl bounces down a dark alley reeking of blood and offal without a care in the world, singing merrily, following her is a BAD IDEA.



Mind, the critter in question there is a Solara, one of the more dangerous forms of Fae, I went into more detail on this way back when.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=50570

-F

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:10 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So here's the big question: If you could swap genders for a day, what would you do?

(And since I have a sneaking suspicion what the answers will be, I will now vacate the thread and post a follow up about the results later and the implications that are suggested by all this)



Um. I never really had a burning desire to swap, so I'm not sure I would do it, given the chance.

Apart from generally testing the equipment, I'd enjoy two things the most:

1) Being medium-tall! I would reach up on ALL the shelves I could find!

2) Being flat-chested! I would buy the tightest t-shirt available and go running.


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 7:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


As someone who wants to be a writer it would be an invaluable experience to get inside a woman's head. And generally it would be a fascinating learning experience.

Last year I played some online Settlers of Catan with a female avatar, and it was an interesting experiment in how people related to me. Generally I think males treated me nicer, but there was the odd bit of gender-based aggression. One guy told me he hoped I had a period in a shark tank! But online sexism in gaming is pretty notorious.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:15 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, count me impressed. The last place I saw this experiment, all of the replies had something to do with trying the new parts out (thus, the hasty exit). You all actually came up with some good, thoughtful answers, when I wasn't sure that was possible considering the question.

When I first saw this, I thought to myself, what would I do differently? And I couldn't actually think of anything beyond the fact that not being recognizable the next day could be useful. Essentially there would be no actual difference for me being male versus female.

There isn't really anywhere or anything that's barred to me at the moment just because I'm female. I mean restrooms? Who even cares about that? Girl as a guy wouldn't really want to look around at all the other guys at the urinals, and guy as a girl would find all the lady's restrooms have private stalls.

What's interesting here is that underneath the ideas you've come up with, based on most of the replies it seems none of us think that life as either gender isn't really that different and some of you even wondered why you would want to switch.

It was something I also noticed on the other forum that gave me the idea to try this here.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:23 AM

BYTEMITE


Also:

Quote:


Mind, the critter in question there is a Solara, one of the more dangerous forms of Fae, I went into more detail on this way back when.



http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-087

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:54 AM

AGENTROUKA


To be fair, I think the shorter time frame for the switch probably has a lot to do with that, as might the sample we provide.

We probably don't all hail from circles where the mere short-term switch of genders would have fast and significant positive influence on our lives.

Long-term, it's a different story.

My sister's career would have been different if she had started working as a man because informal mentor-ship was influenced by gender. She had one go-getter female superior pushing her, the guys formed something of a boy's club. Nothing hostile but a noticeable difference that shaped relationships and career paths.

My grandma would have been a ruthless and successful Stasi-spy, not being pregnant all the time. (Note: No political approval here.)

If I had been born a guy, I would be very different. I spent the majority of my life in the company of women because it was my "natural" social circle and boys were iffy and did different things. It influenced a lot about who I became.

My boyfriend-as-a-girl would probably be house-wife to some well-off childhood friend, mother to 5 children. Being a heterosexual guy dramatically reduces the pool of partners willing and able to be the breadwinner.

Long-term, there are a lot of differences that switching for a day, from a set personality, wouldn't create.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:11 AM

MAL4PREZ


Interesting question, and I actually have the opposite pet peeve as you, Byte. I saw this posed on some website as a question for just the women ie what would you do if you were a man for a day? I thought it was pretty vanilla that most of the answers were: pee standing up. Woo-hoo fun /sarcasm.

I know it's not what you like to hear, Byte, but I think it's a no-brainer that testing the junk is gonna be high on the list. I think so, and I'm asexual! How can you not be curious about the difference between indoor and outdoor?

#2 for me would testing the rest of the junk, assuming I'd be a pretty fit guy. I'm often shocked at how fast and powerful men's sports are, even the kids I teach who are so young and tender looking, but then you get them on the ice or the diamond or the field and yikes! I don't want to step out there with them. I'd like to know what it's like to skate with those legs and take a slapshot with that upper body.

Chris, I understand what you're after with your Buffy fantasy. I am firmly of the belief that the problem would be greatly reduced if men had reason to believe they'd be seriously damaged if they messed with woman. But something about your suggestion bugs me.

The Buffy fantasy just doesn't happen. First, because if you try hard to get yourself in the dark alley with a stranger situation, there is no guarantee that all your martial arts skills will be enough. It's not that women are weak, it's that when a perp ID's a woman as a victim, he goes all out with her in a way he wouldn't with a man. Losing is not acceptable. Second, the real bias you need to experience is sneakier.

Try just sparring with a man. Watch how insulted he gets when you beat him, which I've experienced with hockey. It is just so INSULTING for some men to get beat by a woman. That's annoying.


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:24 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

To be fair, I think the shorter time frame for the switch probably has a lot to do with that, as might the sample we provide.


I suppose my impression might have to do with my own lifestyle and personality. Despite being outwardly a girl, I've pretty much spent my whole life expressing myself and living like a guy.

It WOULDN'T be different for me. And I still think this does, to some extent, highlight a lack of difference in the current times and generation.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:25 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Try just sparring with a man. Watch how insulted he gets when you beat him, which I've experienced with hockey. It is just so INSULTING for some men to get beat by a woman. That's annoying.


In my first martial arts school, the best fighter was a girl. I always wanted to spar with her because sparring with the best makes you better faster. I was never insulted, rather, challenged.
A video store I worked was frequented by a female professional body builder, and after knowing her a while, she decided to let me know what a girlie-man I was & defeat me (all too easily) at arm wrestling. I hit the home gym in a big way, and just two months later I beat her. She congratulated me.
A guy that gets insulted loses his already damaged calm. Go ahead, get insulted & angry & full of adrenaline while I scientifically disassemble your ligaments, hah hahaha!!

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:26 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I saw this posed on some website as a question for just the women ie what would you do if you were a man for a day? I thought it was pretty vanilla that most of the answers were: pee standing up. Woo-hoo fun /sarcasm.


Yes, I saw some of those too, and also thought they were rather vanilla. It's really just a different form of trying out the equipment isn't it?

But still. The physical organs seem to be the difference that a lot of people focus on. Doesn't that kind of say something?

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:34 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Try just sparring with a man. Watch how insulted he gets when you beat him, which I've experienced with hockey. It is just so INSULTING for some men to get beat by a woman. That's annoying.


In my first martial arts school, the best fighter was a girl. I always wanted to spar with her because sparring with the best makes you better faster. I was never insulted, rather, challenged.
A video store I worked was frequented by a female professional body builder, and after knowing her a while, she decided to let me know what a girlie-man I was & defeat me (all too easily) at arm wrestling. I hit the home gym in a big way, and just two months later I beat her. She congratulated me.
A guy that gets insulted loses his already damaged calm. Go ahead, get insulted & angry & full of adrenaline while I scientifically disassemble your ligaments, hah hahaha!!


Well, it's no secret to me that you are cooler than most men. :). And actually, the majority of men in my life now are similarly cool. It has not always been so.


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:37 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

I saw this posed on some website as a question for just the women ie what would you do if you were a man for a day? I thought it was pretty vanilla that most of the answers were: pee standing up. Woo-hoo fun /sarcasm.


Yes, I saw some of those too, and also thought they were rather vanilla. It's really just a different form of trying out the equipment isn't it?

But still. The physical organs seem to be the difference that a lot of people focus on. Doesn't that kind of say something?

yeah, it says that a lot of people are sexual in a way that you and I aren't. This is no secret. Look at advertising for heavens sake.

Idk, but the curiosity for me isn't just about sexuality. A lot of men are just so serious about their man parts. If I had the chance, I'd want to know what the big deal is.


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
A lot of men are just so serious about their man parts. If I had the chance, I'd want to know what the big deal is.

It's like having a toy that's not only fun to play with, it's a fun toy to share with others...

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:04 PM

BYTEMITE


Some of the weirder responses I've seen:

Male to female getting pregnant just to find out what happens to the fetus when they turn male again. Disturbing conversation about what might happen if they had to give birth as a male ensues.

Female to male impregnating oneself using a stored sample.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:31 PM

CHRISISALL


Ha ha, want weird? Change your sex, then travel back in time so you can be your own 'first'.
Tell me that don't eff with your head.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
It's not that women are weak, it's that when a perp ID's a woman as a victim, he goes all out with her in a way he wouldn't with a man. Losing is not acceptable. Second, the real bias you need to experience is sneakier.

Try just sparring with a man. Watch how insulted he gets when you beat him, which I've experienced with hockey. It is just so INSULTING for some men to get beat by a woman. That's annoying.



Oh it's hi-larious even online...
I had this car (Peugeot 206) in Need For Speed 2: Underground - Not only was it kind of cute in form, it was pink, like cotton candy pink, like barbie pink, claw-your-eyes-out pink and loaded with glitter and cutesy decals and it just abso-friggin-lutelty screamed someones-kid-sister to the very heavens.

Oh, did I mention I was really, REALLY good at NFS2U ?

You see where this is going, oh yeah - now some of the attention I got was, well yick, but y'all knew that too, but by far the most common reaction from ANY age group of men was a freaking epic temper tantrum, seriously.
Mind you, I could HEAR them, but the headset I was using had a broken mic (which was of course very convinient to the sham) and it stunned me that the worst offenders for shitty behavior were NOT the young ones, but men between 28-45, they were hands down the WORST dicks ever... think about THAT the next time some asshole in that age range throws a hissy about the supposed behavior of younger players.
Of course, one of the least semi-disturbing comments I got from some early-teen kid after totally demolishing him was also one of the sweetest.
"Oh. My. God... please marry me, it's okay, I will WAIT for you!"
I had to sign off cause I was laughing too hard to play anymore.
But yes, let's just say I am very familiar with the type of temper tantrum you describe.

Oh, and by preference - as I have said before not all women are willing or psychologically able to fight (and there's nothing inherently wrong with that) but of them who are I would MUCH rather fight a male who is skilled than a female, cause if she has skills she's gonna know how to USE that superior speed and endurance against me, plus the extra flexibility and range - women generally have better legwork range and hitting power, while guys generally have better upper body range and striking power... which keeps her out of my damn reach, wearing me down and frustrating me till she can close in and mess my whole damn day up - which has happened to me in sparring rings often enough for me to REALLY NOT LIKE IT.
A male on the other hand, is going to close up, especially if he's bigger than me, and boy howdy is he in for a rude awakening when he does, cause at MY preferred range he's not got the momentum to do me damage or the room to build it, and I am busy inflicting horrific amounts of pain in the meantime... ergo a female who can keep out of my range and outlast me is too damn likely to win that one and I bloody well know it.
FYI though: That wouldn't be followed by a temper tantrum, but likely by a very Vader-esque "Impressive!" and depending on how I thought she might take it, perhaps an invitation to dinner.
(not in a come on kind of way, just as a fellowship thing)

And yeah, I didn't go all into equipment testing cause of the squick factor it'd have on some people, but if you were to say, clone off a second me of the opposite sex, it'd be as predictable as gravity that they'd immediately charge right at each other and engage in some violence followed by lots of tantric freaky, like law of nature reliable.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYourself?from=Main.SEL
FCEST


Come on, most of you would, you just don't dare admit it.


-Frem

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:34 PM

STORYMARK


I think my day would be spent much like this:





“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Idk, but the curiosity for me isn't just about sexuality. A lot of men are just so serious about their man parts. If I had the chance, I'd want to know what the big deal is.


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That's cultural, not biological. Other cultures are not as macho as the US.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 2:03 PM

BYTEMITE


One of the few heartwarming stories I've managed to hear on the internet (because... this is the internet) was when a bunch of people playing some sort of Grand Theft Auto Online thing (not really up to date on GTA) found a kid who was stuck somehow, and instead of griefing him they actually helped him. You don't really expect that to happen anymore.

As for dopplegangers... Pretty sure we'd all be trying to maim each other. That would be a fun fight though.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:17 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:


My grandma would have been a ruthless and successful Stasi-spy, not being pregnant all the time. (Note: No political approval here.)




You from the Old East I take it. Interesting.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:19 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:


The Buffy fantasy just doesn't happen. First, because if you try hard to get yourself in the dark alley with a stranger situation, there is no guarantee that all your martial arts skills will be enough. It's not that women are weak, it's that when a perp ID's a woman as a victim, he goes all out with her in a way he wouldn't with a man. Losing is not acceptable. Second, the real bias you need to experience is sneakier.

Try just sparring with a man. Watch how insulted he gets when you beat him, which I've experienced with hockey. It is just so INSULTING for some men to get beat by a woman. That's annoying.





I've thought this too about the whole "I'm a female who knows marshall arts". No guarantee of a happy outcome. Especially in Gunsville USA>

That's what family violence and other forms of misogyny are generally about. Men who think they are losing in the power stakes to a woman. They can get really mean - the ones that believe that women exist to serve their own needs in any event. And unfortunately there are those of that belief system that frequent these boards.

Be a powerful woman, an outspoken woman and experience the ferocity of the hatred directed at you. Now that would be an interesting experience for some of you men.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:48 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I've thought this too about the whole "I'm a female who knows marshall arts". No guarantee of a happy outcome. Especially in Gunsville USA>

Well -- sorry to say it Chris because I know you don't really think this -- it also suggests that the reason women are victimized in dark alleys is because we don't have manly martial arts skills, and a man in our skin wouldn't stand for it. You know?

Kind'a like it takes a white man putting on the blue skin of the aliens to make the rebellion happen. :/


Quote:

Be a powerful woman, an outspoken woman and experience the ferocity of the hatred directed at you. Now that would be an interesting experience for some of you men.


Oh yeah! I saw an interesting headline - a transgender woman noticing a big difference in how people reacted to her after he became a she. It's so true. A woman in many fields (like mine) comes to expect resistance to every suggestion she makes, and has to be careful how she addresses the resistance.

Um... I do realize I'm being one-sided here. I want to respond to a few other posts, and then I do mean to put more thought on what I could learn by walking in a man's shoes.




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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:53 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I think my day would be spent much like this:

**farscape clip**




That is pretty much the funniest thing ever. I don't think I ever caught this episode. Must go find it...


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
This isn't so much a RWED as it is a potentially thoughtful discussion, with, yes, a deliberately provocative title. Hi! Made you look. You know who you are.

So here's the big question: If you could swap genders for a day, what would you do?

(And since I have a sneaking suspicion what the answers will be, I will now vacate the thread and post a follow up about the results later and the implications that are suggested by all this)



It depends. Am I a female version of myself now, like Adam Sandler did in Jack and Jill, when playing his twin sister ? Or am I a random other female ?

Impossible to answer w/ out all the specifics spelled out.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:56 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Oh it's hi-larious even online...
I had this car (Peugeot 206) in Need For Speed 2: Underground - Not only was it kind of cute in form, it was pink, like cotton candy pink, like barbie pink, claw-your-eyes-out pink and loaded with glitter and cutesy decals and it just abso-friggin-lutelty screamed someones-kid-sister to the very heavens.

Oh, did I mention I was really, REALLY good at NFS2U ?


LOL! I pretended to be a boy in a game I started last summer. Well, I just didn't correct anyone's assumptions. I came out as a girl when I was strong enough to destroy anyone who gave me shit, which I did a few times. Now I lead my guild and no one messes with me.

Skip the next part Byte...

Quote:

And yeah, I didn't go all into equipment testing cause of the squick factor it'd have on some people, but if you were to say, clone off a second me of the opposite sex, it'd be as predictable as gravity that they'd immediately charge right at each other and engage in some violence followed by lots of tantric freaky, like law of nature reliable.


OK, that totally icks me out. Having sex with yourself? Seeing your own O-face? Gah! I don't want to go anywhere near that!


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Kind'a like it takes a white man putting on the blue skin of the aliens to make the rebellion happen. :/


Friggin' blue cat Pocahontas. I don't know why everyone was raving over that movie. The designs, art style, and story were cliche as hell and loaded with implications.

Quote:

A woman in many fields (like mine) comes to expect resistance to every suggestion she makes, and has to be careful how she addresses the resistance.



Honestly though, I have never experienced this.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:10 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It depends. Am I a female version of myself now, like Adam Sandler did in Jack and Jill, when playing his twin sister ? Or am I a random other female ?

Impossible to answer w/ out all the specifics spelled out.



You but female, though a lot of people around here thought it would mean they were taller or more fit, so I guess that's acceptable as well.

I just assumed I'd be the same height and build but male. Y'only go through puberty once, after all.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

Gah! I don't want to go anywhere near that!




Nah, it's okay. I think you raise the most exactly true point there - I'm not sure anyone who thinks they could make out with themselves could really get past the surrealness of it, let alone seeing how ridiculous they look.

Probably end up with both the participants breaking out in uncontrollable laughter. Kind of a mood killer. Like trying to tongue your reflection in a mirror.

And that's if they don't have insecurities or self-loathing going on. That would be more like an emotional powder-keg and time bomb.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'd like to switch genders for more than a day. I'd like to see how others responded to me. Would they be less friendly, more fearful, more deferential, crasser?


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Well -- sorry to say it Chris because I know you don't really think this -- it also suggests that the reason women are victimized in dark alleys is because we don't have manly martial arts skills, and a man in our skin wouldn't stand for it. You know?

Kind'a like it takes a white man putting on the blue skin of the aliens to make the rebellion happen. :/


Good salvo, touche!
Mind, while not universally true, I figure the women would be smart enough not to enter the alley in the first place, and much less ego-driven to get into a stupid fight with morons she can probably outrun.
I was kinda indirectly mocking the male assumption that females aren't that smart, and on average they are, sooo...
Quote:

OK, that totally icks me out. Having sex with yourself? Seeing your own O-face? Gah! I don't want to go anywhere near that!

BWAHAHAHAHA, my work here is done...
I didn't initially bring it up cause of that not-wanting-to-freak-out-the-normals thing, but then Byte just *HAD* to mention it, ON PURPOSE, cause she knew *exactly* what'd come of it.

Anyhows, the really fun part of selfcest would be an intricate and specific knowledge of all your deviances, triggers and.. well, things - plus the will and ability to go for broke from both sides of the line at once.
Squick aside, that *IS* kind of awesome for us non-asexual people, when you think about it.


As for game trolling, intentional or otherwise, I tend to pick ambiguous names, and have played female characters in the past for asthetic and other reasons (really, if yer gonna be staring at a pixellated character for hours, doesn't it make a little sense there...?) and as a result considering how immersive some of these games are, one DOES occasionally slip into a character-mindset and how THEY might view the situation.
Of course, being Khajit anyways, my female Skyrim character just DRIPS sarcasm with every word to begin with...
Then again what with me considering gender roles bullshit and having done so since an early age, I suppose I have a different perspective on it.

Oh, and just as an aside, I play with the Hearthfire expansion, so one of the first things I tend to do in the game is adopt some of the war orphans and then build a big fancy house - at which point I start losing ANY interest in following the plot, lol...
"Dragons, right, well, love to help you and all but I was gonna go watch my kids play, so I'll hafta get back to you on that."
All in how you define "winning", I guess.

-Frem

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Friday, June 20, 2014 4:20 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


I suppose my impression might have to do with my own lifestyle and personality. Despite being outwardly a girl, I've pretty much spent my whole life expressing myself and living like a guy.




The brain imaging revealed that females with autism showed what the scientists referred to as neuroanatomical “masculinization.” meaning areas of the brain that were atypical in adult females with autism were similar to areas that differ between typical developing males and females. This brain difference was not seen in the adult males with autism.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/08/09/autism-affects-different-area
s-brain-in-men-and-women
/


Yeah, that's why me and the kiddo being slightly dyspraxic and why we both register as 60% female and 40% male on personality tests. It's why I always got along with gay males(recognition of male qualities without the threat)
and like the typical male side of home improvement...

It's also why I have a hard time with other women who AREN'T on the spectrum somewheres... At least my kid knows why she gets along with the boys and can embrace it, instead of like my parents who were psychotic about me playing with boys







**I would like to be able to take off the boobs and the ass, as they are in the way more than anything... I sometimes am jealous of the girls who have no boob, as they can jog down the street and not look and feel ridiculous.
Not that I can jog anymore anyway...

I would like to be a guy because women break more. And there are soooo many broken women, no one cares, especially your doctor....




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