REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Accident or Not? Malaysian Airliner shot down.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Thursday, February 9, 2023 09:43
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 23318
PAGE 4 of 7

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:07 PM

THGRRI


It took two seconds to find this and post it. That is how disingenuous you are being when you say you looked but could not find any links to Obama saying the missile was fired from territories held by the separatists. You are fooling no one.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:16 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I guess that we have nothing to do at this point but to wait and see.
FINALLY! We reach an understanding! That's been my point all along.

But that's not what you DO. You dismiss information from one side and not the other, and give no factual basis for your filtering.

Quote:

Quote:

1. What evidence do you have to directly implicate the Ukrainians?
They had means, motive, and opportunity. That makes them a suspect, along with other suspects.

Not factual information in any way. Come one sig. Do you really think anyone will be convinced by such a weak statement?

Which is what I mean when I say: WTH the happened to you. I ask for evidence that *directly* implicates the Ukrainians, and this is the best you can do?

It's sad, is what it is, that you've come to this and you don't even recognize it.

Quote:

Quote:

2. What is your basis of dismissing the mounting evidence that implicates the Russians? (I can expand on this if you've blocked all my previous posts out.)
WHAT "mounting evidence"? A "Russian-made" missile was used? The rebels claimed to have captured one FROM KIEV? I personally don't see that Russia had any motivation to shoot down a passenger plane; for them it is a clusterfuck of nightmare proportions.



So that's your "factual" evidence, that you don't "see" a motivation, and your personal vision should be the Truth for us all?

Good lord. So many things wrong with this. First, that you think the culprits did this on purpose when it's quite clear they thought they were taking out a military plane and only afterward discovered it was civilian. Second, that you continue to dismiss all those social media posts that the idiot Russians made, with no real explanation of why you think that's OK. Oh right, something amiss in the background. Weak * 10000!

Your personal bias is winning out over any possibility of logical thought that you once may have had. It'd long gone now!

Again - factual facts. Got any?

Quote:

Quote:

3. If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of, be honest. Do it outright. You believe that the pres of the US is lying. Say it and own it, or implicitly admit to being a biased coward with nothing to support your outrageous clams.
I have asked several times for LINKS. This so-called "missile data" is nowhere to be found. I can't evaluate what I can't find.

You are a helpless little thing, aren't you? Quote back to me that thing I said - be upfront about how you think Obama is blatantly and knowingly lying about this, and I'll fill you in on the reality of it.

Can you not do this? It's not hard. TELL ME that you think Obama is lying, and I'll do your homework for you. Nothing cryptic about that. I've laid down the terms. Do you have the balls to accept them?

Quote:

Quote:

#4: how do you explain the obvious efforts by the separatists to keep all western investigators away from the wreckage? And ditto re the disappearance of the flight recordings?
And ditto the disappearance of the taped conversations between Kiev air traffic control and Flight M17. I MIGHT say that the separatists were worried about the objectivity of the the investigators.

Your speculation always goes in one direction. For every story that you can concoct which indicates Russia's guilt, I can concoct one which indicates Kiev's. So how about doing like you said, and waiting for the investigation to be completed?


and we can all see that your speculations have nothing behind them. No links. No photographs. No videos. No observations by people who are actually there, seeing it as it is.

So how's about you actually, for once, back your bullshit up?

Can you?



*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:22 PM

THGRRI


Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 investigators denied access to crash site

http://www.cbsnews.com/

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:28 PM

THGRRI


International Outcry Over Treatment of MH17 Victims Grows

The outcry came as public criticism of Russian President Vladimir Putin grew globally. The upset manifested itself in statements from officials and in newspaper headlines. Britain's Daily Mirror tabloid featured the headline "Putin's victims," alongside pictures of MH17 passengers on its front page Saturday.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/international-out
cry-over-treatment-mh17-victims-grows-n160096

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:34 PM

THGRRI


I love how you demand that I realize how hard you try to be fair and accurate Sig, yet can't find any of the things mentioned in the media that suggest Intel points to the Russia separatists.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of"

Neither accept nor reject. Waiting for data.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:38 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of"

Neither accept nor reject. Waiting for data.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.


Your sad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Originally posted by 1kiki:

ETA: I'm curious if you can restrict your answer to what I actually posted, or if you'll continue to try to put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Mal4:

Expand on this. What exactly are the words I put in your mouth?


Well, you seem to think I'm Signy's clone. I presume then that posts addressed to her are also addressed to me.

I say this:
Are you never going to hesitate and wait for data?

and you say this:
not with the crap you're posting!
Jesus you are biased!
You believe that the Ukraine planned in advance and then executed this attack


I say this:
Why should I believe (Obama)?

and you say this:
So you believe ... the missile came from somewhere not rebel controlled.

I say this:
So, since everyone is so breathlessly believing any claims made with no actual evidence, here's one

and you say this:
So Kiki, why do you believe this article and no others? What is it about this one that says *truth* to you?


And so on. Whatever mal4. bye.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:43 PM

THGRRI


Originally posted by THGRRI:


Hey 1kiki explain this; AND HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED SIGNYM?

Russia Today Correspondent Quits Over Plane Crash 'Lies'

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Russia-Ukraine-reporter-quits/2014/07
/18/id/583551

'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/russia-today-reporter-quits-mala
ysia-airlines-mh17-crash-coverage-article-1.1871924

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:45 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"If you wish to dismiss the missile data Obama has spoken of"

Neither accept nor reject. Waiting for data.


And you are, of course, just as judgmental about information coming from Master Putin as you are about any and all sources supporting the West, aren't you?

Aren't you?

Yes, obviously, I doubt that you are, lil sig clone. I have seen you and sig post no questions or doubts re the Russian side of things, not even a little bit.

Have you ever? Maybe I missed it. Can you post links to instances where you were critical of Russia and Putin? I would read these links and immediately admit I'm wrong. If those links proving your lack of bias exist... Do they?

Please, do tell.


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:47 PM

MAL4PREZ


Kiki, you repost meaningless crap. Can you address my specific and very clear questions?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

You want me to think you aren't a sig clone? Then post a real, original thought. Have you any?


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:54 PM

THGRRI


I think it's time for me to move on. It's all been said and I feel we are beginning to chase our tails.

Nice chat.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:58 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I responded to a question you clearly posted. "Expand on this. What exactly are the words I put in your mouth?" Then you claimed I didn't answer your questions "Kiki the sig clone, your post answers none of my very direct and specific questions". So I reposted your question and my answer to make it clear that indeed, my post was an answer to your question. Do you have a problem with that?

ETA: Well apparently you do since you called it 'meaningless crap'.

EETA: "Then post a real, original thought. Have you any?" What I've been saying all this time: waiting for data.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 12:17 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I think it's time for me to move on. It's all been said and I feel we are beginning to chase our tails.

Nice chat.



You really think so? Surely not. I'm sure you all could do another 10 pages of 'you hate usa' 'you're twisting my words' 'you're a sock puppet' Only in your case, you'd write it as 'your twisting my words' coz you're grammar's a bit off ;)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 12:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MAL4, you seem intensely interested in putting words in my mouth. I'm not ACCUSING Ukraine of anything, but I'm open to the possibility that they are indeed complicit. That seems to be a possibility that you can't accept. I'm not ACCUSING Obama of anything, but I'm very open to the possibility that he's lying, because he's lied already in similar situations. But the suggestion that Obama could being lying ... well, it seems to violate some necessary assumption of yours. Can you contemplate that thought calmly?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Why she still lives here is a puzzlement.





I don't believe she does live here. It is impossible to miss Russia's entanglement in the world. That while being so stringent about denying any wrong doing on Russia's part every time. Plus blaming us for everything. That suggests a very strong inferiority complex and rivalry with the United States. I believe she has very strong ties to that country.

My concern is if she is here, where does she work and what does she have access to. There is no doubt in my mind that she can't be trusted.



SignyM lives in California and works in a medical or chemical analysis lab, as I recall.

The name Signy (or Signe)..."(sometimes known as Sieglinde) is the name of two heroines in two connected legends from Scandinavian mythology which were very popular in medieval Scandinavia. Both appear in the Völsunga saga, which was adapted into other works such as Wagner's 'Ring' cycle, including its famous opera The Valkyrie. Signy is also the name of two characters in several other sagas.

The first Signy is the daughter of King Völsung. She was married to the villainous Geatish king Siggeir who has her whole family treacherously murdered, except for her brother Sigmund. She saves her brother, has an incestuous affair with him and bears the son Sinfjötli. She burnt herself to death with her hated husband.

The second Signy is the daughter of King Siggeir's nephew Sigar. She fell in love with the Sea-King Hagbard, and promised him that she would not live if he died. They were discovered and Hagbard was sentenced to be hanged. Hagbard managed to signal this to Signy who set her house on fire and died in the flames whereupon Hagbard hanged himself in the gallows. See Hagbard and Signy.

A third Signy is the daughter of a witch named Grid in Illuga saga Gríðarfóstra. They are both delivered from a curse by a young man named Illugi.

A fourth Signy was Hroðgar's sister in Skjöldunga saga and Hrólfr Kraki's saga. She is unnamed in Beowulf."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signy

She often uses Scandinavian countries as examples of better places to live.



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And now the separatists appear to be taking all the bodies...somewhere.

http://www.wtop.com/220/3665918/Ukraine-rebels-agree-to-remove-crash-s
ite-bodies



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Really?!? What did you see exactly? Did you see Putin's Crimea land grab?
Yes, I did. Please go to KPO's predictions thread.

HOWEVER, I ALSO noticed that it's the USA that spends more than all other nations combined on the military, that it's the United States has 800 military installations around the world - not Russia, It's the United States that killed a few hundred thousand in Iraq.... and who knows how many more in Afghanistan and Libya- not Russia, and that it's the United States that has left five nations in smoking ruins- not Russia.

In terms of 'land grabs', the United States has been engaging in a far larger one than Russia. It's a 'land grab' that YOU accept as being normal, but its a land grab nonetheless, and one that I'm sure our victims really do notice even if we don't. Russia would have to go a long way to catch up to our imperial ambitions.

Have you noticed that?

Quote:

It won't benefit the perpetrators because they will be found out and punished, so ergo, no one would plan this. Conclusion: a mistake.
Assuming that the real perpetrator will ever be found out, then it will indeed be a 'mistake'. But that logic doesn't point the finger at anyone in particular, it's just a re-statement of the adage that 'crime doesn't pay'. Well, the United States has been making crime 'pay' for quite a few decades now and it still hasn't caught up with us in a major way. Heck, YOU don't notice it for what it is, do you? That kind of success generates the kind of hubris that would precipitate exactly this kind of event. So your point is non-persuasive.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Where did the US 'land grab ' any established, internationally recognized nations?

Oh, that's right. Never.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Lately???

You mean you didn't notice the few major invasions that we started or were part of?

Nah.....

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Lately???

You mean you didn't notice the few major invasions that we started or were part of?

Nah.....



I said 'land grab' , not military action.

Didn't think you'd have a legit answer.


Thanks!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And now the separatists appear to be taking all the bodies...somewhere.
Somewhere in Donetsk, anyway.

*does facepalm*

Well, they're sure not helping their cause. Once there is an international investigative team set up... not OSCE members who are EU military personnel but an actual investigative team... they really should leave the hell alone.

Quote:

TOREZ, Ukraine (AP) -- Rebels in eastern Ukraine took control Sunday of the bodies recovered from downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and the U.S. and European leaders demanded that Russian President Vladimir Putin make sure rebels give international investigators had full access to the crash site.

"There's a stacking up of evidence here, which Russia needs to help account for. We are not drawing the final conclusion here. But there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible," U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said NBC's "Meet the Press" television show.

However, it seems that whatever happens, Kerry manages to make it Russia's fault. And so far, just like the evidence of "who shot the plane down?" seems to be MIA, so is the evidence that Russia is 'in charge' of what these people are doing. I think that just as Russia is far too sophisticated to have shot this plan down, it it far too sophisticated to be taking such unhelpful actions.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:59 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


You really think so? Surely not. I'm sure you all could do another 10 pages of 'you hate usa' 'you're twisting my words' 'you're a sock puppet' Only in your case, you'd write it as 'your twisting my words' coz you're grammar's a bit off ;)



Yes YOUR right I could.

your [yoor, yawr, yohr; unstressed yer] Show IPA

pronoun

(a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. I like your idea. Compare yours.

one's (used to indicate that one belonging to oneself or to any person): The consulate is your best source of information. As you go down the hill, the library is on your left.


(used informally to indicate all members of a group, occupation, etc., or things of a particular type): Take your factory worker, for instance. Your power brakes don't need that much servicing.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 11:00 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I can understand why the rebels aren't interested in letting Ukrainian, US, OSCE, or NATO personnel in. They're in the middle of a war. This is territory they fought and died for.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 11:25 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, they're sure not helping their cause. Once there is an international investigative team set up... not OSCE members who are EU military personnel but an actual investigative team... they really should leave the hell alone.



Got a cite that the investigative team denied access isn't an actual investigative team?

Anyway, doesn't it seem reasonable to you that in an incident involving the shoot-down of an airliner by a surface-to-air missile (unless you're now denying this too)you'd want folks familiar with surface-to-air missiles and the results of such an attack? Wouldn't those folks likely be military?

Also, you have to know that the U.S. can identify not only the type of missile guidance radar used, but the location where it was set up by its signal. Anyone who's read Tom Clancy, any techno-thriller, or the description of actual anti-radar system knows how these systems work.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 11:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Also, you have to know that the U.S. can identify not only the type of missile guidance radar used, but the location where it was set up by its signal. Anyone who's read Tom Clancy, any techno-thriller, or the description of actual anti-radar system knows how these systems work.
Which is why it should be so easy to point a definitive finger at where the missile came from. Meanwhile, different media outlets are pointing in different directions...

CNN, for example, is pressing the claim that the anti-aircraft system was captured by rebels from Ukrainian facilities...

Quote:

Stealing a Buk
Under a blazing sun in early June, a group of pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine were digging amid pine woods near the town of Krazny Liman.

Their grizzled commander was a bearded man in his 50s who would not tell us where he was from, but acknowledged that he wasn't local. He was proud to show off his unit's most prized possession -- a truck-mounted anti-aircraft unit that was Russian-made.

He told us the weapon had been seized from a Ukrainian base....

Could the pro-Russian rebels have acquired a serviceable Buk from a Ukrainian base and operated it? The evidence is circumstantial; a great deal of Ukrainian military hardware is in poor condition or redundant.

But on June 29, rebels raided the Ukrainian army's A-1402 missile facility near Donetsk. Photographs show them examining what they found.

The Russian website Vosti ran an article the same day titled "Skies of Donetsk will be defended by surface-to-air missile system Buk."

The article claimed: "The anti-air defense point is one of the divisions of the missile corps and is equipped with motorized "Buk" anti-aircraft missile systems."

Peter Felstead, an expert on former Soviet military hardware at Janes IHS, says that "the Buk is in both the Russian and Ukrainian inventories, but it's unclear whether the one suspected in the shoot-down was taken by rebels when they overran a Ukrainian base, or was supplied by Russia."


http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/ukraine-rebels-weapons/inde
x.html?hpt=hp_t1


Reuters, OTOH, is pressing the concept that the systems were supplied directly by Russia.

Quote:

Kerry said the United States had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armored personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists.

The United States had intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian radar-guided SA11 missile system it blames for the downing of the Boeing 777, he said.

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia," Kerry said in an interview on CNN.



Ron Paul doesn't want anyone to jump to conclusions... pretty much what I've been saying.
Quote:

Referring to the tragic downing of a Malaysian Airlines plane over eastern Ukraine, former Texas congressman Ron Paul warned against jumping to conclusions over the culprits.

Drawing parallels between the potential for a Russian-made missile system’s connection to the attack of the passenger jet on Thursday over the restive Donetsk region of Ukraine and the capture of US-made weapons by Islamist insurgents in Iraq, Paul pointed out that the missile’s potential source of manufacture was largely immaterial.

“That may well be true, but guess what, ISIS has a lot of American weapons," said Paul. "We sent weapons into Syria to help the rebels and al-Qaida ends up getting it — it doesn't mean that our American government and Obama deliberately wanted ISIS to get American weapons."

"So who gets the weapons is a big difference between how they got them and what happened and what the motivations were," Paul added. "So even if it was a Russian weapon — doesn't mean a lot."



QUICK, THUGR! INVESTIGATE THAT MAN FOR ANTI-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES! (Yeah, you went there. Your love of freedom is only skin deep, it seems. Scratch a military man, and you'll probably find an asshole right underneath.)


Quote:

Anyway, doesn't it seem reasonable to you that in an incident involving the shoot-down of an airliner by a surface-to-air missile (unless you're now denying this too)you'd want folks familiar with surface-to-air missiles and the results of such an attack? Wouldn't those folks likely be military?
If one is paranoid about the objectivity of an investigative team, Russian military should be included.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 12:06 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

…Sig
However, it seems that whatever happens, Kerry manages to make it Russia's fault. And so far, just like the evidence of "who shot the plane down?" seems to be MIA, so is the evidence that Russia is 'in charge' of what these people are doing.



You think Kerry manages to make it Russia’s fault. I don’t think he needs to.

“A rebel leader for the pro-Russian insurgency fighting against the Ukraine government claims responsibility for the shooting down a plane at about the same time that the Malaysia Flight 17 went down over Ukraine”.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian-ukrainian-rebel-leader-claims-
shoot-down-of-malaysia-airlines-jet
/

“The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 flight MH17 was blown up over Eastern Ukraine by a sophisticated BAK surface-to-air missile believed to be fired by pro-Russia rebels. One of the calls apparently was made at 4.40 pm Kiev time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by a separatist identified as Igor Bezler, to a separatist commander and Russian intelligence officer Vasili Geranin, the Kyiv Post reported”.
http://www.outlookindia.com/news/article/MH17-Signals-Intercepted-Reve
al-Rebels-Claiming-Responsibility/850532

Quote:

….Sig

I think that just as Russia is far too sophisticated to have shot this plan down, it it far too sophisticated to be taking such unhelpful actions.



"Corruption has been a major concern for Russia for many years now. This is reflected in Russia's consistently poor performance in all benchmark international rankings of business environment as well as anecdotal evidence such as the fact that building a gas pipeline on Russian territory costs around three times as much as it does in Europe," Liza Ermolenko, emerging markets economist at Capital Economics, told CNBC.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100805382

Russia is little more than a glorified gas station for Europe. European banks are also the place where Russia deposits its corrupt gains at the expense of it population. “Martynyuk, a member of the Solidarity movement, present enlarged photographs of the Russian leader’s wrist during meetings and public appearances, revealing a variety of expensive watches, 11 in all, worth $687,000 at retail — about six times Mr. Putin’s annual salary”.

In interviews with The Guardian, Die Welt and other overseas media, Russian political analyst Stanislav Belkovsky estimated Putin's wealth at more than $40 billion. He said Putin has shares in three oil and gas companies, including Surgutneftegas and Gazprom, through offshore trusts.
Where did he get the money?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101029569

Where does Putin get his money?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 12:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Went there, looked at all of your posts, didn't see it. Closest one was where you took credit for predicting Ukraine would be split up ("halfway credit"), no Crimea, no Putin.
I predicted that Russia would send troops over the border to "protect Russian civilians". In that sense, I over-predicted because that hasn't happened yet. Please read more closely- it's there.

Quote:

I noticed where I added your prediction that the US would destabilize Syria - guess we're still waiting for that one.
You mean that you don't think Syria is already destabilized, with 100,000+ people killed, al Qaida operating in Syria and ISIS taking large parts of the eastern border???

YIKES!

Quote:

All true (not sure about the number of nations) - so how does that point to us being guilty here? Russia has an innocent past? Most recently Crimea?
All I'm saying, and all I've BEEN saying, is that the USA and Kiev are on the list of credible suspects. When people keep pushing speculation about Russia and the separatists, I point out alternate theories... something that seems to rile people up terribly, and leads to considerable confusion (on their part) as to what I'm really saying.


Quote:

I noticed Obama trying to get us out of Iraq and Afghansitan. I have a feeling you will have a different perspective on that though.
I noticed Obama bombing Libya, arming "rebels" in Syria (and training them in Jordan), and droning Yemen. And trying to acquire Ukraine. I noticed Obama trying to negotiate a "status of force" agreement with Iraq which left a residual force there.

It's not that Obama doesn't believe in land-grabs, it's just that he believes in doing them "smarter", more "efficiently", and more "cost-effectively" by alternative warfare (funding opposition groups, supplying rebels, droning enemies, and special force ops). Big, splashy invasions aren't his thing.

That doesn't take away from the point that it's the United States that occupies much of the world, and sees itself as the world's police force.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 12:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Seriously, folks, I think the speculation's been beat to death. Let's give it a rest.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 1:41 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Also, you have to know that the U.S. can identify not only the type of missile guidance radar used, but the location where it was set up by its signal. Anyone who's read Tom Clancy, any techno-thriller, or the description of actual anti-radar system knows how these systems work.
Which is why it should be so easy to point a definitive finger at where the missile came from. Meanwhile, different media outlets are pointing in different directions...

CNN, for example, is pressing the claim that the anti-aircraft system was captured by rebels from Ukrainian facilities...



Not where the missile system came from, where the missile was launched from (but you knew that).

As has been noted, the U.S., which has the ability to capture and identify radiation from the BUK-1's "Snow Drift" target acquisition and "Fire Dome" tracking and engagement radar, identified the launch site as from inside the rebel-held area. This is certainly within the capability of U.S. equipment. If the U.S. didn't care about divulging the accuracy of their equipment, they could probably pinpoint the launch site pretty precisely, but since the launchers, radar, and spare rocket carrier have already hightailed it, there's not much point.

Quote:

Quote:

Anyway, doesn't it seem reasonable to you that in an incident involving the shoot-down of an airliner by a surface-to-air missile (unless you're now denying this too)you'd want folks familiar with surface-to-air missiles and the results of such an attack? Wouldn't those folks likely be military?
If one is paranoid about the objectivity of an investigative team, Russian military should be included.



So no cites as to the OSCE team not being "actual investigators", I guess.

And why should the Russian military, or any Russian investigators at all, be involved? There were no Russians on the plane, it was not in Russian airspace, and the Russians (and you) claim no Russian involvement in the shoot-down? Why not bring in the Ecuadorian military as well?

Although the Russians do seem to be involving themselves, with the "black boxes" apparently handed over to their regional air-safety authority by the rebels.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/end-malaysia-airlines-black-box/st
ory?id=24607538




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 2:07 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Seriously, folks, I think the speculation's been beat to death. Let's give it a rest.



Sig you have no concept of the dangers intertwined throughout the world and what it takes, especially in these times, to keep them from developing into a world war or plane attack against American cities. To stop busses from blowing up in London or civilians of Israel from being kidnaped and held for ransom or butchered.

Around the world countries have to make sure passengers are not carrying weapons or explosives before boarding planes and the undercurrent that saturates your posts suggests it is all our fault. Your simplistic point of view, if the United States had stayed out of it, it would all be good works only in your one dimensional brand of thinking.

If someone pointed to a foreign policy mistake in our past they would probable get a lot of support. The reason you do not is because you are not pointing to mistakes to enlighten but instead to pronounce sentence. You have a litany of perceived injustices by this country which you do not put into context, nor give perspective to that you post with superfluity whenever possible. Almost always our past transgressions as perceived by you find their way into a discussion thread that has nothing to do with current history or the headline being chatted. Of course you exclude and deny the bad behavior of your favored states.

Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia. This has caused panic within many of the old Soviet satellite countries that want no part of Russian rule. They want to break from the corruption so they resist and reach out to the west. This is about economics. The biggest problem in Eastern Ukraine is the many Russian migrants who want to stay in the Ukraine but not as Ukrainians. It’s obvious to most Putin's involvement behind the scenes in Ukraine and his helping to arm the insurgents has led to this. Just not to you which is why you always wind up in these battles.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:28 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Yes YOUR right I could.

your [yoor, yawr, yohr; unstressed yer] Show IPA

pronoun

(a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. I like your idea. Compare yours.

one's (used to indicate that one belonging to oneself or to any person): The consulate is your best source of information. As you go down the hill, the library is on your left.


(used informally to indicate all members of a group, occupation, etc., or things of a particular type): Take your factory worker, for instance. Your power brakes don't need that much servicing.



The easiet way to avoid mistakes between 'you're' and 'your' is to think about what you are writing.

'You're' is a contraction of 'you are' so if you read your sentence and what you could also say is 'you are' then 'you're' is the correct usage

'Your' is a possessive adjective second person - see if you can replace it with 'my' or 'his/her' in the sentence to make sense.

ie You're an idiot. (contraction of 'you are')
Your coat has a big hole in the armpit' (possessive adjective)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 6:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia.



All powerful countries do this. The US has done the same to South and Central America. Most powerful countries do not want hostile nations on their border.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 6:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia.



All powerful countries do this. The US has done the same to South and Central America. Most powerful countries do not want hostile nations on their border.



Pity we can't do it with Mexico. It's right next door, and that entire country is run like ... well, the city of Detroit.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:40 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Yes YOUR right I could.

your [yoor, yawr, yohr; unstressed yer] Show IPA

pronoun

(a form of the possessive case of you used as an attributive adjective): Your jacket is in that closet. I like your idea. Compare yours.

one's (used to indicate that one belonging to oneself or to any person): The consulate is your best source of information. As you go down the hill, the library is on your left.


(used informally to indicate all members of a group, occupation, etc., or things of a particular type): Take your factory worker, for instance. Your power brakes don't need that much servicing.



The easiet way to avoid mistakes between 'you're' and 'your' is to think about what you are writing.

'You're' is a contraction of 'you are' so if you read your sentence and what you could also say is 'you are' then 'you're' is the correct usage

'Your' is a possessive adjective second person - see if you can replace it with 'my' or 'his/her' in the sentence to make sense.

ie You're an idiot. (contraction of 'you are')
Your coat has a big hole in the armpit' (possessive adjective)



You realize you're asking a lot of me?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Pity we can't do it with Mexico. It's right next door, and that entire country is run like ... well, the city of Detroit.



You gotta get your hard drugs from somewhere, buddy. What do you expect?

In any event, a cartal controlled crime riddled country would appear to be more flavoursome than a communist one. *cough*cuba*cough

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:50 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Putin is doing by force what he cannot do diplomatically. He is trying to control his neighbors and keep them from joining the west as serious trading partners. He tried and is still trying to do the same with Georgia.



All powerful countries do this. The US has done the same to South and Central America. Most powerful countries do not want hostile nations on their border.



I can't argue against your point about not wanting hostel neighbors. I just made the comment about what Putin was doing and why. Some here see things differently because they refuse to acknowledge the facts.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:01 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Well I dont think the all the 'facts' have anywhere near been proven. What we are seeing is a lot of theories, some more likely than others obviously.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


My point exactly. People who claim it's a 'fact' that the missile was traced back to separatist-held territory have only Obama's claim that it is so. Meanwhile, other people claim other things. People who claim it's a 'fact' that Russia's controlling the separatists have only media-claims as sources. Meanwhile, other people claim other things.

There are precious few facts, but lots of people making claims. And lots of people echoing them.

Me, I'm waiting for facts.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:10 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Well I dont think the all the 'facts' have anywhere near been proven. What we are seeing is a lot of theories, some more likely than others obviously.



Also more plausible then others as well. One other thing. What happens south of our border directly affects us. Much of that may be our own doing due to the drug trade but still it affects us in a major way. Just look at the wave of children fleeing those countries and coming here.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:45 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
My point exactly. People who claim it's a 'fact' that the missile was traced back to separatist-held territory have only Obama's claim that it is so. Meanwhile, other people claim other things. People who claim it's a 'fact' that Russia's controlling the separatists have only media-claims as sources. Meanwhile, other people claim other things.

There are precious few facts, but lots of people making claims. And lots of people echoing them.

Me, I'm waiting for facts.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.


No we have statements from other world leaders as well as Obama very upset with Putin. As well as speeches made at the UN that say where the missile came from. Much of it's post here. You're just a liar.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:45 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


The same applies to Russia or anyone else with hostile neighbours.

I think the scenario of it being launched by Russian backed militia is the most likely, however, I dont think Sygny has deserved the attacks she has recieved on this topic. This is a proxy war where each side is backed and armed by a super power. And I guess what we see here sadly, is when arms, especially such destructive high tech arms are in the hands of poorly trained and disciplined militia. I could go on and make some parallels with the 2nd amendment, but I'll resist dragging it down that fruitless path.

I also think that it's (it is - contraction not possessive see THGRI) no bad thing to view different news sources to get different perspectives on a situation and to view them all with an eye of distrust.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:51 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The same applies to Russia or anyone else with hostile neighbours.

I think the scenario of it being launced by Russian backed militia is the most likely, however, I dont think Sygny has deserved the attacks she has recieved on this topic. This is a proxy war where each side is backed and armed by a super power. And I guess what we see here sadly, is when arms, especially such destructive high tech arms are in the hands of poorly trained and disciplined militia. I could go on and make some parallels with the 2nd amendment, but I'll resist dragging it down that fruitless path.

I also think that it's (it is - contraction not possessive see THGRI) no bad thing to view different news sources to get different perspectives on a situation and to view them all with an eye of distrust.



This is a constant with Sig and 1kiki. They deserve it and more. If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event, you would not be so generous. I remember how uppity you suggested I was because I was an American when we discussed different ways of governing. I don't think it would take much for you to go off on someone speaking ill of your country. Don't judge me for defending mine.

(It is nice to hear from you. It's a shame we don't meet here more often.)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 9:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event ..."

Because waiting for facts is an attack?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:11 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event ..."

Because waiting for facts is an attack?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.


Please, like when all this shit started in the Ukraine. All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background. I don't recall you suggesting we wait for the facts.... Now you ignore them.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:23 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background.

Are you NOT aware that Obama is EVIL, and the wellspring of every bad event on this planet? Have you been living in a cave?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:29 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background.

Are you NOT aware that Obama is EVIL, and the wellspring of every bad event on this planet? Have you been living in a cave?



Nope...Nope

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:52 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:



This is a constant with Sig and 1kiki. They deserve it and more. If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event, you would not be so generous. I remember how uppity you suggested I was because I was an American when we discussed different ways of governing. I don't think it would take much for you to go off on someone speaking ill of your country. Don't judge me for defending mine.

(It is nice to hear from you. It's a shame we don't meet here more often.)



I don't remember getting 'uppity' and I don't remember feeling like you attacked my country. I think the discussion was about different kinds of government.

I would have thought that the whole point of this board was to discuss and yes, criticise actions, military and economic and the rest that occur throughout the world. Criticism of America's foreign policy by Americans (or anyone else for that matter) does not seem as outrageous to me as it clearly does to you.

You're (nb you are) living in a world power, people are going to dislike your interventions in the world. As long as people are discussing your actions, not blowing you up, I'd say 'suck it up princess' ;)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 20, 2014 11:15 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Please, like when all this shit started in the Ukraine. All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background. I don't recall you suggesting we wait for the facts.... Now you ignore them.



It is pure naivety (and something more) that has sig seriously suggesting that we wait for undeniable *FACTS*. In science, such things as *facts* exist. There is a definition to be used to separate facts from those other observations that cannot be replicated and therefore do not qualify as **FACTUAL*. Indeed, she and I can finish off 2014 denying each other's stated *FACTS*,BUT likely no real conclusion could be drawn. Because they aren't really facts, not like a ball falls ~5 meters in one second when you drop it.

This horrible matter in Ukraine is not in any way science. This is politics. There are no hard facts, and only very rarely can we claim a high (90+%) certainty of anything. Politics is fuzzy logic, to use a comp sci term. It means looking not just at one factoid and over there a completely different factoid and blinding yourself to all but those two data points that you *know* to be right. Politics is about patterns in data that is all flawed and unsure, connections between observations that will never be 100% provable as facts but that, taken together, with what you know about the sources of the data, weave a canvas that reveals the likely truth(s) behind the observed course of events.

Seeing to the truth is also about assessing the trustworthiness of the source. And that can only be determined by lining one source up with information from a separate, purely unrelated source, and having a history of knowing which is more trustworthy. This is not science. It is purely subjective, and here is where our biases cause problems. Here is where the blinders go over our eyes: who do you believe: Bush, Obama, or Putin?

Sig, being a pure scientist, may understand little of this. She shows no ability to use fuzzy logic, the process by which our brains actually function. That is how she's so smart and insightful yet in a few ways fails so magnificently short. She wants it all to come out of a textbook, with uncertainly analysis and all, down to the fraction of percent uncertainty so she can know what ~fact~ to trust to guide her to the truth. She does not understand that she is choosing her "trusted" data based on her own biases.

Her glasses are not clear. OK, I think she does know this to some extent, and she is striving to clean them. But her hostility toward people who question her (just look at how quick she is to point out that she's an EXPERRT and the challenger knows nothing about the matter...) gives it away. She prefers the view through HER own glasses, because she believes she is just that damned RIgHT..

She knows very well that other people are guided by their guts, (guts represent the sum of experience and knowledge stored not as a dry list of facts but as fuzzy logic in our very complex brains. That's how we see things as right or wrong though we can't explain it some times. Our brains store all kinds of fuzzy truths, years of experiences packed together, reasons we trust one source more than another though we might not know why because we are not computers that upload the exact data ...)

Example: from the start I have no trust no Putin and his involvement in all the Ukraine matter.

Sig has no trust of Obama, but had some idea that Putin had rational, perhaps even honorable reasons to do what he's done..

We could have a long drawn out thread battle about why we disagree, but it would go no where. The difference cannot be scientifically verifyied. She has her psyche with her reasons, I have mine. Neither can be assessed with low uncertainty in a physics lab to determine a "factual" "truth".

So look back at old threads - sig clearly had no such reservations about Putin, or if she did they were miniscule compared to her mistrust of the West. I took a very different trak.

Our differing mentalities explain a lot about the very different fuzzy logic we've brought in to the present matter. I am quickest to see Putin as the liar. Sig jumps on Obama. Neither man is 100% truthful, but one is far worse, and I think that in the long run the truth will out. Sig, will you accept that result, if it happens? Seems you're already packing away in this thread as you see the evidence mount, the fuzzy logic that was obvious to me and countless other days ago might be coming home to you....

I must ponder this more, but for now I'm tired.

But hey Sig - don't think I missed it. I posed very specific questions to you. Rather than replying in any detail re how Obama is lying, you claimed this whole thing needed a rest.

Hey - How much head time do you devote to the possible reality where Obama is NOT lying? I've yet to see any of that here. Or you exploration of he possibility that Putin is lying though he teeth. You never do pay mind to that possibility.

(I'm tired, that post may need many correctional edits... Be patient)


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 21, 2014 1:00 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"All your and Sig's posts implied America and Europe are at fault, pulling all the strings in the background."

You mean TV appearances in the Ukraine by US politicians, multiple recorded telephone conversations and videotapes aren't facts?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Elections; 2024
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:56 - 2076 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:20 - 6156 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:18 - 57 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:54 - 3414 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:49 - 11 posts
Long List of Celebrities that are Still Here
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:00 - 1 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:10 - 447 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:03 - 853 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL