REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Sniper kills five cops

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 2, 2016 17:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3858
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, July 9, 2016 7:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Dallas sniper attack: 5 officers killed, suspect identified

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-alton-sterling-prote
sts
/

Just a place for discussion

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:13 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Correction: Suspect executed by drone bomb.



For those gun nuts out there, *THIS* is exactly what your supposed "armed insurrection" against the big, evil, tyrannical government looks like. This guy is what you're holding up as your goal, your idol. He is the NRA. He is one of those troops you claim to support. And until he pulled the trigger on the first victim, he'd committed no crime, and under Texas's open carry laws they couldn't even ask him where he was going with his rifle and handgun that night.

Ironically, a whole police force of "good guys with guns" was unable to do anything to stop this dude. It took a robot with a bomb. The only thing that stops a robot with a bomb is a good robot with a bomb.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 12:20 PM

WHOZIT


#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 1:45 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group




You're thinking of the Army and the NRA.

No evidence that the shooter was any part of BLM, but he *WAS* a U.S. Army veteran, using a weapon that the NRA has fought tooth and nail to make sure that anyone can have access to at all times, regardless of their criminal history or mental competence.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 2:52 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group




You're thinking of the Army and the NRA.

No evidence that the shooter was any part of BLM, but he *WAS* a U.S. Army veteran, using a weapon that the NRA has fought tooth and nail to make sure that anyone can have access to at all times, regardless of their criminal history or mental competence.



The Orlando shooter was a Democrat, so with that thinking the Democrat party is a terror group.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 2:55 PM

WHOZIT



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 3:21 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group




You're thinking of the Army and the NRA.

No evidence that the shooter was any part of BLM, but he *WAS* a U.S. Army veteran, using a weapon that the NRA has fought tooth and nail to make sure that anyone can have access to at all times, regardless of their criminal history or mental competence.



The Orlando shooter was a Democrat, so with that thinking the Democrat party is a terror group.




And Robert Dear, the Planned Parenthood murderer, is a Republican. So you admit you're a terrorist as well.




Meanwhile, there's this.

http://imgur.com/a/YkDVQ



Also, where were all the "good guys with guns" at the Dallas event? There were at least 20 open-carry activists there with their guns, all strapped and showing off their toys. What happened to them when the shooting started? You know what happened to them? They ran away, because you all are a bunch of fucking cowards when it comes right down to it, and you can't and won't stop shit!

20 big heroes with their preciouses, and not a one of them did a goddamned thing to stop the killing. Didn't lift a trigger finger to help - just ran away like a bunch of pussies, exactly like we always said they would.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 3:22 PM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:




I think I actually left him speechless. :D

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 4:16 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group




You're thinking of the Army and the NRA.

No evidence that the shooter was any part of BLM, but he *WAS* a U.S. Army veteran, using a weapon that the NRA has fought tooth and nail to make sure that anyone can have access to at all times, regardless of their criminal history or mental competence.



The Orlando shooter was a Democrat, so with that thinking the Democrat party is a terror group.




And Robert Dear, the Planned Parenthood murderer, is a Republican. So you admit you're a terrorist as well.




Meanwhile, there's this.

http://imgur.com/a/YkDVQ



Also, where were all the "good guys with guns" at the Dallas event? There were at least 20 open-carry activists there with their guns, all strapped and showing off their toys. What happened to them when the shooting started? You know what happened to them? They ran away, because you all are a bunch of fucking cowards when it comes right down to it, and you can't and won't stop shit!

20 big heroes with their preciouses, and not a one of them did a goddamned thing to stop the killing. Didn't lift a trigger finger to help - just ran away like a bunch of pussies, exactly like we always said they would.



I'm sure when the shooting started they were told by Police to get away. If you watch video the Police tell everyone to get back.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 7:34 PM

ELVISCHRIST

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 10, 2016 8:31 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Trump is a terrorist organization, according to Whozit.

http://www.joemygod.com/2016/07/09/portland-trump-supporter-faces-40-y
ears-prison-threatening-protesters-gun-video/



But he didn't shoot anyone

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 11, 2016 2:34 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


it's another really sad set of events, but I'm sorry to have to say it once again, your gun laws are just completely fucked. Everyone sees it except the nut jobs who think this is an acceptable way to live. It's just not.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 11, 2016 7:26 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group

Don't you mean #nolivesmatter

Jack Ohman: Gunfire in Dallas
www.sacbee.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/jack-ohman/article88701452.h
tml

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 12, 2016 7:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


If I may be a little "meta" about this whole event and the reaction to it.

What I find is that once someone targeted police in an organized fashion, suddenly the cops started talking peace. And once black gangstas looked into the future of total race warfare, and therefore a cut in their profits, suddenly THEY started talking peace. But IMHO this is just a temporary truce. Unarmed blacks will continue to be killed by police in disproportionate numbers and videos will continue to bubble up.

The real problem IMHO isn't guns or gun laws, it's the ATTITUDE about people and about violence. Violence - especially righteous violence - is still promoted 24/7/365 in popular culture. And dividing the society into "haves" and "will never haves" sets up a system that the police have to defend. We have to find a common ethic that unites us, something more than every man for himself and god against all.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 12, 2016 10:40 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

If I may be a little "meta" about this whole event and the reaction to it.

If I may be a little factual about this whole event in Texas:
Quote:

Blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force. In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas—where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified—we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely.

Analyzing data from cities in California, Texas, and Florida, Fryer found that lethal force was used more often against whites than blacks. The results weren't statistically significant, so technically Fryer's conclusion is that there's no difference between the shooting rate of whites and blacks.

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/07/new-study-suggests-police-shoot
-whites-more-frequently-blacks

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:29 PM

THGRRI





Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings


By QUOCTRUNG BUI and AMANDA COX JULY 11, 2016


Police officers are more likely to ...

with blacks than with whites
in similar situations
use hands 2,165
for every
10,000 stops
in New York City
1,845
for every
10,000 stops
in New York City
17% more likely

..........................................Black.....White
push into wall ............................623... 529 18%
use handcuffs* ............................310... 266 16%
draw weapons.............................. 155... 129 19%
push to ground ............................136 ...114 18%
point weapon ..............................54 ....43 24%
use pepper spray or baton 5 4 25%




* Handcuffs exclude arrests. Counts represent at least that level of force, based on stop-and-frisk data from 2003 to 2013. Similar situations account for gender, age, police precinct, the reason for the stop, whether the stop was indoors or outdoors, the time of day, whether the stop took place in a high-crime area or during a high-crime time, whether the officer was in uniform, the type of identification provided, and whether others were stopped at the same time.



A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.


____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 12, 2016 5:44 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group

WHOZIT is a racist whose mind is controlled by reichwing FOX propaganda.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 12, 2016 5:47 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
it's another really sad set of events, but I'm sorry to have to say it once again, your gun laws are just completely fucked. Everyone sees it except the nut jobs who think this is an acceptable way to live. It's just not.

True. However, thanks to our corrupt campaign finance rules, the NRA controls congress, not the American people.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 12, 2016 5:49 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
#blacklivesmatter is a terrorist group




You're thinking of the Army and the NRA.

No evidence that the shooter was any part of BLM, but he *WAS* a U.S. Army veteran, using a weapon that the NRA has fought tooth and nail to make sure that anyone can have access to at all times, regardless of their criminal history or mental competence.



The Orlando shooter was a Democrat, so with that thinking the Democrat party is a terror group.

Just when I think no one can possibly be this stupid, you prove that you can.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 13, 2016 11:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force. In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas—where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified—we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely.

Analyzing data from cities in California, Texas, and Florida, Fryer found that lethal force was used more often against whites than blacks. The results weren't statistically significant, so technically Fryer's conclusion is that there's no difference between the shooting rate of whites and blacks.



First of all, there are statistics out there that say otherwise. I just saw a study ... can't remember where but I'll try to look it up ... which showed that, of the roughly 390 fatal shootings by police blacks accounted for just slightly less than half. But since blacks make up only about 12% of the population, they are being shot about four times more frequently than whites. I think the mentally ill are also over-represented in police shootings.

But the problem is that ALL statistics are suspect, because there is no REQUIRED NATIONAL DATABASE - or even state-by-state database- of the victims and circumstances of police shootings, whether fatal or not. Finding that information is extremely difficult, local public radio (KPCC) had to go to filed letters, written by the LA County DA as they declined to prosecute each case, in order to dredge up the facts. The very first thing this report talks about is that information is deliberately under-collected.

Quote:

The official statistics for shootings by police in America are bad to non-existent. The totals are under-reported, and the Justice Department admits it doesn't have crucial details such as the race of people shot, and whether they were armed.


http://www.npr.org/2015/11/10/455502419/in-los-angeles-piecing-togethe
r-the-numbers-on-police-shootings


In any case, my point was that despite all of the protestation of love and unity between police and the civilians they keep an eye on, police cannot help but remember that someone targeted them in an organized fashion. It's hard enough encountering people every day that you don't know might shoot you out of sheer criminality. Adding another layer of fear onto that will probably make police even MORE jumpy, and just make the problem worse.

Something more needs to be done than a day of mourning and a temporary cease-fire.

Just look at the case of the Lacqaun McDonald shooting in Chicago. The coverup involved everyone from the other police who witnessed the shooting to the DA who withheld the video to the City Council who paid off mom and dad to the (supposedly) independent review board, which resulted in the Police Chief fbeing fired over a year later, only after the whole cover-up was exposed.

Chicago police chief fired after Laquan McDonald shooting revelations
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/01/chicago-mayor-fires-po
lice-superintendent-laquan-mcdonald-shooting-protests


OTOH, taking Chicago again as an example, the shootings between gangs is atrocious.




--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 13, 2016 12:17 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

But the problem is that ALL statistics are suspect . . .

. . . police cannot help but remember that someone targeted them . . .

Adding another layer of fear onto that will probably make police even MORE . . .

Something more needs to be done than a day of mourning and a temporary cease-fire.

. . . which resulted in the Police Chief fbeing fired over a year later, only after the whole cover-up was exposed.

. . . the shootings between gangs is atrocious.

www.gocomics.com/nickanderson/2016/07/10

www.gocomics.com/nickanderson/2015/09/01

www.houstonchronicle.com/about/article/Good-Guy-8355315.php

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 13, 2016 12:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Do you want to know what I think is the root cause of inner-city violence, and police shootings?

Of course not, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

It doesn't help that the USA started its life with slavery: the creation of a permanent underclass which, because of its distinctive skin color could never hope to "blend in" like the Irish, Polish, and Italians did afterwards. RACISM exists to this day, in ways both large and small. It is pervasive, and shows itself in how the media presents people of color, and how white people react to people of color, and how people of color react to whites.

But racism by itself wouldn't be so bad if it weren't attached to systematic economic privation.

And economic privation wouldn't be so bad if it weren't embedded in a culture that worships money ... getting money and proving your status according to the things and people that you own (women, specifically) by any means necessary. There are impoverished cultures that manage to be non-violent because they have other ideals ... family, work, religion, community, or what-have-you. But not here, because we are a relentlessly commercialized, monetized culture in which everything and everyone exists to make money for somebody.

What is the difference between invading Iraq and killing up to a million people for oil, versus killing rival gang members for drug-turf. Nothing, except scale. Gangs have learned their lessons well by emulating the success of their "betters".

As a culture, we have a hard time holding up ideals of meritocracy, hard work, self-reliance, self-respect, and non-violence for "the black community" when everything else in our culture screams an opposing message. And it's all driven by the sleazebags and whores and manipulators at the top who rape the world (including their own nation) for profit.

So, if we really wanted to "do something" we would have a decent job available for everyone who could work. We would have training and education and even travel so people could broaden their minds beyond the small communities that they grew up in ... and that includes Castleton IN (heart of heroin addiction) as well as Watts CA. We would have therapy for people who have grown up in situations of endemic violence, leading to chronic PTSD for so many people, and drug treatment for those who sought to escape their misery via chemicals. And, to continue the diatribe, we would provide mental health treatment to those who are mentally ill.

But we will do none of this, because it costs the wealthy too much of their money.

So, we give cops guns to "solve" our social problems, or at least contain them in communities that we don't want to deal with.

Guns aren't our only problem, and "gun control" barely scratches the surface of what ails us. But it's a cheap fix that costs the wealthy nothing.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, July 14, 2016 6:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Honest question: Do you think anything in this country works? - G


I know a lot of PEOPLE who work ... really hard. They work at their jobs, and then they take care of ill and dying parents or children (or both). If they have spare time and energy they volunteer through their church or some other organization, if they have spare money they donate to a cause.

But being a decent, caring, responsible person is being a sucker. Because, really, what is rewarded? Scamming and cheating. Cheating and scamming. If you want to get ahead, it doesn't come from hard work! Just look at our banking elite and our politicians and our Bishops and televangelists, our gang leaders and our welfare cheats.

Working hard and meeting your obligations? That just makes you the (heavily parasitized) donkey for this whole enterprise. And who the hell wants to be that? The only thing you get out of being a hardworking responsible person is a good feeling about yourself, and every four years the politicians running for office refer to you to milk your vote. But they will never, EVER, do anything to change the system of rewards that operates here.

No wonder this place is falling apart.


--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 18, 2016 12:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Another military-trained sniper kills another 3 cops, this time in Baton Rouge.

Baton Rouge shooter identified as Gavin Long, 29
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/07/17/baton-rouge-polic
e-shooting-suspect/87227644
/

Yanno, I think it's well-past time we had that national conversation that I've been talking about. Not about blacks and whites, like Obama keeps yapping about, but about more fundamental questions:

What, as a nation, do we want?
What do we believe is right, and what do we believe wrong?
What do we reward, and what do we punish?
What do we have in common?
What brings us together, instead of pulling us apart into black-white, gay-straight, male-female, young-old, Democrat-Republican identities?

My god, if we can't have a meaningful and rational conversation HERE, on a no-account internet forum, what hope do we have as a nation?



--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 18, 2016 6:04 PM

REAVERFAN


The only "welfare cheats" you'll find are giant corporations.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
The only "welfare cheats" you'll find are giant corporations.



Especially there. Thanks for pointing that out.

"Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor"

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 22, 2016 8:45 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Do you want to know what I think is the root cause of inner-city violence, and police shootings?

Of course not, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

It doesn't help that the USA started its life with slavery: the creation of a permanent underclass which, because of its distinctive skin color could never hope to "blend in" like the Irish, Polish, and Italians did afterwards. RACISM exists to this day, in ways both large and small. It is pervasive, and shows itself in how the media presents people of color, and how white people react to people of color, and how people of color react to whites.

But racism by itself wouldn't be so bad if it weren't attached to systematic economic privation.

And economic privation wouldn't be so bad if it weren't embedded in a culture that worships money ... getting money and proving your status according to the things and people that you own (women, specifically) by any means necessary. There are impoverished cultures that manage to be non-violent because they have other ideals ... family, work, religion, community, or what-have-you. But not here, because we are a relentlessly commercialized, monetized culture in which everything and everyone exists to make money for somebody.

What is the difference between invading Iraq and killing up to a million people for oil, versus killing rival gang members for drug-turf. Nothing, except scale. Gangs have learned their lessons well by emulating the success of their "betters".

As a culture, we have a hard time holding up ideals of meritocracy, hard work, self-reliance, self-respect, and non-violence for "the black community" when everything else in our culture screams an opposing message. And it's all driven by the sleazebags and whores and manipulators at the top who rape the world (including their own nation) for profit.

So, if we really wanted to "do something" we would have a decent job available for everyone who could work. We would have training and education and even travel so people could broaden their minds beyond the small communities that they grew up in ... and that includes Castleton IN (heart of heroin addiction) as well as Watts CA. We would have therapy for people who have grown up in situations of endemic violence, leading to chronic PTSD for so many people, and drug treatment for those who sought to escape their misery via chemicals. And, to continue the diatribe, we would provide mental health treatment to those who are mentally ill.

But we will do none of this, because it costs the wealthy too much of their money.

So, we give cops guns to "solve" our social problems, or at least contain them in communities that we don't want to deal with.

Guns aren't our only problem, and "gun control" barely scratches the surface of what ails us. But it's a cheap fix that costs the wealthy nothing.





This is why I rarely come here anymore - the tedium of American Exceptionalism spills over even into explanation of your problems.

Most Western countries (and most non Western as well) are based around materialism, wealth accumulation whatever you want to call it. That isn't exceptional to America.

Most Western countries (and many non Western) are involved or have been involved in military conflicts, usually for economic reasons both international and local. Nothing exceptional about that.

Many of the problems experienced in America, divide between rich and poor, complex social problems, disenfranchised underclass - nothing unique about them today or throughout history.

What separates you from most western nations is your gun laws, that you have a lots of guns, lots of weaponry easily accessible and easily obtained.

Oh and a population that seems largely in denial about cause and effect.

If you had different guns laws with less access to weapons, you'd still have the social issues, but not the guns deaths. Its incredibly simple.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:26 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

If you had different guns laws with less access to weapons, you'd still have the social issues, but not the guns deaths. Its incredibly simple.



Clearly you do not understand the problem.

This: "Oh and a population that seems largely in denial about cause and effect." for example, is very totally completely false. Our population voted overwhelming to support stricter background checks and tougher gun access laws, close to 90% - gun owners included! But we don't seem to actually run our own government when it comes to guns, and there's sadly, very little we can do. When the NRA and other gun lobbyists $own so much of Washington, they get to call the shots. It's deeply embarrassing and frustrating to many of us. It is incredibly simple to see, and nearly impossible to change with the current situation.

Clearly you don't understand that the Republican Party, not the NRA, has a majority in both houses of Congress and the Republican Party is firmly against gun control and that your "close to 90%" who support tougher gun access laws are the same people that gave the Republican Party its majority.

The "close to 90%" need to be reminded that it is their votes and their fault that gun access laws are not tougher. It is not the fault of the NRA because it and the Republican Party are just doing what they have for many decades announced that they are doing: opposing tougher gun access laws.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This is why I rarely come here anymore - the tedium of American Exceptionalism spills over even into explanation of your problems.
You're the only one who has commented on that. I guess because you aren't American, you notice our exceptionalism more.

But, we ARE exceptional.

We have an exceptional economy. By all ordinary measures, we are either the world's largest economy, or the second-largest.

We have an exceptional military. No other army spans the globe like ours does ... ours is bigger than the ten next-largest militaries ....combined .... and that includes the armies of our allies and partners.

Because of that, an exceptional percentage of our exceptionally large budget goes to military spending, which means that's money we can't spend on anything else.

We have the exceptional petrodollar, which is supported by our exceptional military. The petrodollar allows us to buy anything from around the globe and run an immense trade deficit, decade after decade, without suffering the consequences that ordinary currencies would suffer.

Because of our exceptional currency, we have an exceptionally close bond with international banks.

We have an exceptional wealth gap, which is typically calculated as the GINI index. The USA's wealth gap is higher than all of other European and Commonwealth nations, and we're right in there with all of the Third-World nations that we think of as cesspools of corruption:
Republic of the Congo, Turkey, Senegal, Morocco, and Turkmenistan are ranked immediately LOWER than us, while Gabon, Russia, Uruguay, DR Congo,Argentina, Uganda, and Cameroon, and Nigeria are higher than us. That give you and idea of the company we keep.

For a comparison that you might appreciate, Norway has a GINI of 24.9, Australia has a GINI of 34.9, and the USA has a GINI of 41.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

And, perhaps to protect that exceptional wealth gap, we have an exceptional prison population with the world's SECOND highest incarceration rate of approx 700 per 100,000 behind only the tiny Seychelles Islands. For comparison, Norway is 71 and Australia is 152. Hmmm... I see a trend.

The United States also has an exceptional health-care system within the developed world. Because nothing says We care about our people like making their health a source of profit.

We are an exceptionally religious nation, compared with European and Commonwealth nations. Sometimes I think that nations like Iran and the USA are comparable in religiosity.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/9016/worlds-apart-religion-canada-britain-u
s.aspx

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/11/17/the-american-western-european-valu
es-gap
/

I'm sure it must grate on your nerves to hear Americans thump on and on about the USA, either positively or negatively, but in fact the USA is probably THE largest driver of finance and warfare in the world. We ARE exceptional .... although maybe not for much longer... in ways that you, as a nation, probably don't want to achieve. So at least take a negative lesson from us.

Quote:

Most Western countries (and most non Western as well) are based around materialism, wealth accumulation whatever you want to call it. That isn't exceptional to America.
EVERY nation is built around acquiring wealth. It would be a rare nation indeed that aspired to an ascetic life!

Quote:

Most Western countries (and many non Western) are involved or have been involved in military conflicts, usually for economic reasons both international and local. Nothing exceptional about that.
In minor ways. Not to the extent that the USA has committed to in terms of troops and weapons.

Quote:

Many of the problems experienced in America, divide between rich and poor, complex social problems, disenfranchised underclass - nothing unique about them today or throughout history.
I already addressed that, but will add at this point that any nation which continues with an exceptionally large wealth gap will see that wealth gap become a source of destruction.

Quote:

What separates you from most western nations is your gun laws, that you have a lots of guns, lots of weaponry easily accessible and easily obtained.
No. There is MUCH that separates us from other western nations, I believe I made that case quite well.

Our gun laws are just ONE OTHER source of difference but there are many others of far greater importance. FWIW, I think we should have universal gun registration.

Quote:

Oh and a population that seems largely in denial about cause and effect.
In so many ways, and not just about guns. We are a nation of "believers" ... we believe in religion, free enterprise, guns, individualism ... no matter what the effect of our beliefs.

Quote:

If you had different guns laws with less access to weapons, you'd still have the social issues, but not the guns deaths. Its incredibly simple.
You're probably right about that. But the fact that we can't seem to get those laws in place speaks to a much larger dysfunction in our society.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 11:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As a comment, a politician, I forget who, was making the point that an attack on our police is aimed at "the very fabric of our society" and all I could think of was...

Our society is held together by the police????

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:02 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

Oh and a population that seems largely in denial about cause and effect.
In so many ways, and not just about guns. We are a nation of "believers" ... we believe in religion, free enterprise, guns, individualism ... no matter what the effect of our beliefs.

Quote:

If you had different guns laws with less access to weapons, you'd still have the social issues, but not the guns deaths. Its incredibly simple.
You're probably right about that. But the fact that we can't seem to get those laws in place speaks to a much larger dysfunction in our society.

That is very magnanimous of you to say "probably". Probably a Republican Congress will vote against gun control. Probably a Democratic Congress will vote in the opposite direction. Probably if you want to change the direction of the USA the majority party in Congress needs to change. Certainly the majority is Republican. Or you could vote for the Green Party and certainly nothing will change because the Green Party has never sent anyone to Congress.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:02 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

Oh and a population that seems largely in denial about cause and effect.
In so many ways, and not just about guns. We are a nation of "believers" ... we believe in religion, free enterprise, guns, individualism ... no matter what the effect of our beliefs.

Quote:

If you had different guns laws with less access to weapons, you'd still have the social issues, but not the guns deaths. Its incredibly simple.
You're probably right about that. But the fact that we can't seem to get those laws in place speaks to a much larger dysfunction in our society.

That is very magnanimous of you to say "probably". Probably a Republican Congress will vote against gun control. Probably a Democratic Congress will vote in the opposite direction. Probably if you want to change the direction of the USA the majority party in Congress needs to change. Certainly the majority is Republican. Or you could vote for the Green Party and certainly nothing will change because the Green Party has never sent anyone to Congress.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SO MUCH MORE needs to change than gun control. Neither Dems nor Repubs will take the necessary steps. So I refuse to vote for Dems over relatively small matters... especially when they will stab us in the back over bigger issues, like trade and war.

Feel free to continue to cling to the DNC if you wish.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 23, 2016 6:25 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.



This is really funny coming from a Putinett and Trump fan. Since you are not bright enough to see the hypocrisy of your statement, let me suggest you reflect on it a bit.

____________________________________________


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:11 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Sniper kills five cops"

What goes around, comes around.

BTW, that's descriptive, not prescriptive. And now I get to see who doesn't understand what that means.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 7:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

This is why I rarely come here anymore - the tedium of American Exceptionalism spills over even into explanation of your problems.
You're the only one who has commented on that. I guess because you aren't American, you notice our exceptionalism more.

But, we ARE exceptional.



Then all countries are exceptional in that regard, they all have their own cultures, history, population and wealth statistics.

American has been, in recent history, the wealthiest and most powerful. But even then there is nothing unique about that. That position is occupied by some country/civilisation at any point in history. They have their time in the sun, they wield great power and influence and then they are replaced.

I don't know if you were to look at the stats that people or more violence or dysfunctional than ever before. Complex societies develop sub groups, and if sub groups are poor and disenfranchised then violence erupts. For example, we have huge problems with incredible violence in Aboriginal communities, but you see, we don't have a highly armed population, so the violence, horrific as it is, doesn't translate to gun deaths. I'm pretty sure that if the population was as armed here as in the US, you'd see pretty much the same statistics.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 8:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This is why I rarely come here anymore - the tedium of American Exceptionalism spills over even into explanation of your problems.- MAGONS

You're the only one who has commented on that. I guess because you aren't American, you notice our exceptionalism more. But, we ARE exceptional.- SIGNY

Then all countries are exceptional in that regard, they all have their own cultures, history, population and wealth statistics.

Yes, all countries have their own cultures, etc. But none currently has the statistics that the USA does, particularly the statistics on weapons and military spending, combined with a world-straddling military.

Quote:

American has been, in recent history, the wealthiest and most powerful. But even then there is nothing unique about that. That position is occupied by some country/civilisation at any point in history. They have their time in the sun, they wield great power and influence and then they are replaced.

If you mean that position is occupied by every nation at some point in its history, the refutation is that there are many small nations and cultures which never achieve ... if "achieve" is the word I'm looking for ... the status of Empire. But you're right in that America isn't the first and only nation to be an imperial naiton.

Quote:

I don't know if you were to look at the stats that people [ARE?] or more violence or dysfunctional than ever before. Complex societies develop sub groups, and if sub groups are poor and disenfranchised then violence erupts. For example, we have huge problems with incredible violence in Aboriginal communities, but you see, we don't have a highly armed population, so the violence, horrific as it is, doesn't translate to gun deaths. I'm pretty sure that if the population was as armed here as in the US, you'd see pretty much the same statistics.
So people die of alcoholism and drugs and poor nutrition and knifings instead?

If I were to try and parse what you're saying, MAGONS, is that exceptional gun violence in the USA is unrelated to empire, wealth gap, religiosity, or anything else that makes the USA exceptional, other than the exceptional access to guns.

The USA has about 90 guns per 100 people. Switzerland has about 46, Finland 45, and Sweden, Iceland, Germany are in the realm of 30-32. Mexico has 15, The UK has 7, Rawanda has 0.6, and just for the sake of completeness, Australia has 22.

This highest guns deaths are in Honduras (67 per 100,000) with a gun ownership of 6 per 100. The next highest is Venezuela (59 per 100,000) with a gun ownership of 11.


In my previous list of gun while the USA has two or three times as many guns per 100 people as the other gun-owning developed nations, the gun deaths respectively are USA 10.5, Switzerland 3, then Finland 3, Sweden 1.5, Iceland 1.2, Germany 1, Mexico 8, UK 0.2, Rwanda unk, and Australia 0.9.

It's not just the presence of guns. In some cases, nations with high gun ownership have effective gun laws. In some cases, nations with low gun ownership have very high gun deaths and apparently high levels of corruption. In fact, possibly the causal link is between gun deaths and corruption.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 8:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So people die of alcoholism and drugs and poor nutrition and knifings instead?




Correct. But not gun deaths, and while the other is horrific, it would be more horrific with the presence of guns.

Quote:


If I were to try and parse what you're saying, MAGONS, is that exceptional gun violence in the USA is unrelated to empire, wealth gap, religiosity, or anything else that makes the USA exceptional, other than the exceptional access to guns.



Yep, that's pretty much it. Perhaps I'd add access to guns without/with limited laws (coz I know they vary state to state} that regulate ownership/storage and usage.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 8:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It seems to me that gun death is related, if anything, to social disorganization and endemic corruption. A few guns in a population with no guns do an awful lot of damage.

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 9:46 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I wouldn't have thought that adding more guns to a society where there was social disorganisation and corruption was going to be helpful either.

A bit of a cross post, but they are kind of related, I think the other issue would also appear to be that with a highly armed population, you have a jumpy police force, hence the police shootings I also would assume that cops don't appear to be the most highly intelligent, educated and trained sector of your society either, but maybe they should be.

Also consider the amount of guns that aren't necessarily involved in street crime stats, and I mean the accidental shootings, the suicides, the family violence statistics.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 10:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There's a chicken-and-egg problem here. IF we had more social cohesion, we could have better gun laws. But there is so little social cohesion that we can't accomplish that goal.

So it seems to me the answer is to achieve social cohesion another way, not related to guns.
--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 10:42 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:

Clearly you do not understand the problem.

This: "Oh and a population that seems largely in denial about cause and effect." for example, is very totally completely false. Our population voted overwhelming to support stricter background checks and tougher gun access laws, close to 90% - gun owners included! But we don't seem to actually run our own government when it comes to guns, and there's sadly, very little we can do. When the NRA and other gun lobbyists $own so much of Washington, they get to call the shots. It's deeply embarrassing and frustrating to many of us. It is incredibly simple to see, and nearly impossible to change with the current situation.



Well I have a perspective on the problem and I don't think I'm Robinson Crusoe in what I believe.

I've been coming over here a long time now and bashed out the gun issue over many years with a wide range of American posters from both ends of the political spectrum. And I've seen and come to understand many of the arguments made by Americans, which incidentally don't appear to hold sway with people from other nations.

So here is what I have seen

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" (yeah but its a hell of a lot easier with military grade weapons than a knife my friends, otherwise the military are wasting a shit load of money)
"If you start regulating guns, it's a slippery slope to tyranny" (so lets not have any laws then, if its a given that a law requiring you to have a licence to drive a car will clearly mean that we'll all be in gulags in the next 10 years)
"So should we ban knives then, seeing as they are used to kill people" (See 1)
"It's not guns that are the problem, it's our sick society, mental illness, exposure to violent video games and films, American imperialism, individualism etc ect' (So if your society is so sick and wrong, don't allow all those sick, wrong people to own weapons DUH)

etc etc

All the way down to some tired acknowledgements that you gun ownership laws or lack of probably do contribute to the level of gun violence, but hey it's in the constitution and it's a god given right, so whatyagunnado?

So I'm also assuming here that perhaps RWD doesn't represent the views of all Americans everywhere, but that it's an interesting cross section anyway and in the end if there was a will from the people and the lawmakers, it would happen. Let's hope it does.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 25, 2016 11:57 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There's a chicken-and-egg problem here. IF we had more social cohesion, we could have better gun laws. But there is so little social cohesion that we can't accomplish that goal.

So it seems to me the answer is to achieve social cohesion another way, not related to guns.



You're probably never going to achieve social cohesion to the kind of level that everyone will agree. You're too big and too complex - incidentally a strength as well as a weakness, but you do need lawmakers with balls, (scuse the unPCness of that comment) and you need to have lobby groups that can outshout the NRA, and you need to make it simple, because it's too hard to want to change society so that it is a more cohesive, compassionate functioning state. You are talking about something that would be decades away from being a reality IF everyone agreed on a suite of changes to a suite of legislation across a whole load of areas of law = health, employment, justice, welfare.

In that regard, gun laws are relatively simple. Registration, back ground checks, limits to number of arms and ammunition and restrictions on types of weapons that can be purchased. It's not rocket science, but it probably just requires legislators that tolerate voter backlash for the greater good.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 2, 2016 5:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


And another Police Officer killed by another thug:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/selfie-star-cop-dies-tuberculosis-075942412.
html

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 09:39 - 2070 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 02:07 - 3408 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:45 - 5 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts
You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
Tue, March 26, 2024 16:26 - 293 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL