REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Trump's Refugee/Immigrant/Muslim Ban

POSTED BY: G
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 22:31
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Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:56 PM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...



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Sunday, January 29, 2017 4:09 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I love when libs throw out statistics. I got a good laugh out of that one G. Thanks!

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:16 PM

RIVERLOVE


What was the big rush with this? Is Trump trying to fulfill every campaign promise he made in one week? Is he planning on leaving soon? Jeeesh! Someone should slip a Valium in his coffee or something. Slow down dude. Maybe just govern for a spell; yanno with Congress and such; get your feet wet. Did we really need 25 Executive Orders the first week? There is such as a thing as foreplay, or so I've been told.


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Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Another funny!





-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

What was the big rush with this? Is Trump trying to fulfill every campaign promise he made in one week? Is he planning on leaving soon? Jeeesh! Someone should slip a Valium in his coffee or something. Slow down dude. Maybe just govern for a spell; yanno with Congress and such; get your feet wet. Did we really need 25 Executive Orders the first week? There is such as a thing as foreplay, or so I've been told.
Maybe he's worried about being assassinated?




-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Sunday, January 29, 2017 6:23 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Has he really signed 25 executive orders already?

Sigh...


If that is true, then we are going to have a problem here.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, January 29, 2017 7:09 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


According to Wikipedia, Trump has issued five executive orders. Plus some memoranda and proclamations. I have no idea why you'd do a Memorandum versus an Executive Order.

For the record, Obama issued 275, Bush 291, and Clinton 365. Roosevelt takes the prize at 3,522 (147 per year). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_
orders




-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Sunday, January 29, 2017 7:22 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

What was the big rush with this? Is Trump trying to fulfill every campaign promise he made in one week? Is he planning on leaving soon? Jeeesh! Someone should slip a Valium in his coffee or something. Slow down dude. Maybe just govern for a spell; yanno with Congress and such; get your feet wet. Did we really need 25 Executive Orders the first week? There is such as a thing as foreplay, or so I've been told.
Maybe he's worried about being assassinated?




-----------




Well ,if it were Obama, he'd be trying to clear up his spring for the annual trip to Hawaii, golf tour , March Madness party, and then prep the WH for the Summer concert series.

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Sunday, January 29, 2017 7:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake






I guess I was the only one who thought this was funny. Plus, it sounds very drinkable!





-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Monday, January 30, 2017 8:55 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
What was the big rush with this? Is Trump trying to fulfill every campaign promise he made in one week? Is he planning on leaving soon? Jeeesh! Someone should slip a Valium in his coffee or something. Slow down dude. Maybe just govern for a spell; yanno with Congress and such; get your feet wet. Did we really need 25 Executive Orders the first week? There is such as a thing as foreplay, or so I've been told.




He's trying to show us how it's done. How great a man ole little hands is. Think about it. For the last 8 years he's watched Obama, and from his perspective Obama has hemmed and hawed about doing things, while Trump - The Great Builder - has plowed under people's gardens and livelihoods to build great big golf courses. "See?! This is how's it's done!" He's lived in his business bubble where he is a dictator, and he's trying to replicate that now. At some point he'll realize or we'll pay the price, that it just doesn't work the same way. He doesn't understand what being a president means.

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Monday, January 30, 2017 10:11 AM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


It Took Donald Trump 8 Days To Bring The U.S. To The Brink Of A Constitutional Crisis


It took little more than a week in office for President Donald Trump to thrust the nation to the brink of a constitutional crisis.


Late Friday, Trump issued an executive order forbidding millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands of visitors and 500,000 legal immigrants from seven majority-Muslim countries from entering the United States. Over the following 48 hours, massive protests erupted in cities and airports nationwide, courts temporarily blocked major parts of the order, the administration defied the courts and Democrats called for an investigation into the administration’s defiance. As the weekend drew to a close, an anonymous White House official proclaimed the whole episode a “massive success story.”


The federal courts thought otherwise. On Saturday night, a judge in Brooklyn ordered the Trump administration to stop deporting refugees and visitors immigration authorities had previously cleared to enter the country. Two judges in Massachusetts ordered that travelers who were legally authorized to be in the United States shouldn’t be detained at or deported from Logan International Airport for a period of seven days. A judge in Seattle halted the deportation of two travelers. And a judge in Virginia issued an order requiring the administration to allow lawyers access to lawful permanent residents — also known as green card holders — whom Customs and Border Protection agents had detained at Dulles International Airport on Trump’s instructions.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-courts-constitutional-crisis
_us_588ea5bfe4b0176377953710


____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 11:23 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
What was the big rush with this? Is Trump trying to fulfill every campaign promise he made in one week? Is he planning on leaving soon? Jeeesh! Someone should slip a Valium in his coffee or something. Slow down dude. Maybe just govern for a spell; yanno with Congress and such; get your feet wet. Did we really need 25 Executive Orders the first week? There is such as a thing as foreplay, or so I've been told.




He's trying to show us how it's done. How great a man ole little hands is. Think about it. For the last 8 years he's watched Obama, and from his perspective Obama has hemmed and hawed about doing things, while Trump - The Great Builder - has plowed under people's gardens and livelihoods to build great big golf courses. "See?! This is how's it's done!" He's lived in his business bubble where he is a dictator, and he's trying to replicate that now. At some point he'll realize or we'll pay the price, that it just doesn't work the same way. He doesn't understand what being a president means.



"Hemming and hawing" is nice. Yeah, I like the sound of that. After all, discretion IS the better part of valor.

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Monday, January 30, 2017 12:36 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


U.S. Diplomats Drafted A ‘Dissent Memo’ Objecting To Trump’s Muslim Ban


Scores of American diplomats stationed across the globe have drafted a formal “dissent memo” to register their objections to President Donald Trump’s ban on Syrian refugees and travelers from seven Muslim-majority countries.


The draft memo, obtained by ABC News, represents the most significant opposition thus far from within the Trump administration to the president’s controversial executive order.


“This ban ... will not achieve its stated aim of to protect [sic] the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States,” wrote the diplomats. “It will immediately sour relations with these six countries, as well as much of the Muslim world, which sees the ban as religiously motivated.”


The draft memo does not contain any signatures, and its contents are categorized as “Sensitive But Unclassified.” The use of “dissent memos” at the State Department dates back to the Vietnam War, when they were considered necessary to ensure that diplomats on the ground had a means to express opinions that differed with formal U.S. policy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us-diplomats-dissent-memo-trump_us
_588f5901e4b08a14f7e70b8e


____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 2:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


draft memo https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://assets.documentclo
ud.org/documents/3438487/Dissent-Memo.pdf


Has it been signed? Is it on the record? Or is this just another FAKE NEWS event?




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 2:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


All "diplomats" submitted their letters of resignation to the State Department as of Jan 20, WHICH WERE ACCEPTED, no exceptions. In addition, many top-level State Department bureaucrats resigned or were fired. So it's fair to say that there are no "diplomats" remaining in the State Department, so no wonder there are no signatures: There is nobody of any standing left to sign anything.

BTW: THIS is the same State Department that encouraged the Ukrainian coup, pushed for the destruction of Libya (and succeeded) and wanted to bomb Syria. Those policies did more to make America LESS safe than anything else, so who the hell cares what these quislings want? Good riddance!

Here is another POV





-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Monday, January 30, 2017 2:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I was wondering about that, since I knew all diplomats had been recalled. That, plus the bad English (an official document would have been checked for grammar and spelling) made me suspect that the so-called 'draft memo' is FAKE NEWS.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 3:50 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
draft memo https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://assets.documentclo
ud.org/documents/3438487/Dissent-Memo.pdf


Has it been signed? Is it on the record? Or is this just another FAKE NEWS event?




The draft memo does not contain any signatures, and its contents are categorized as “Sensitive But Unclassified.” The use of “dissent memos” at the State Department dates back to the Vietnam War, when they were considered necessary to ensure that diplomats on the ground had a means to express opinions that differed with formal U.S. policy.

____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Signy

So, to respond to your post from here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61325
Quote:

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, and to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.

Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.

In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including “honor” killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall submit to the President a report on the results of the review described in subsection (a) of this section, including the Secretary of Homeland Security’s determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days of the date of this order. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall provide a copy of the report to the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence.

(c) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of nationals of Syria as refugees is detrimental to the interests of the United States and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I have determined that sufficient changes have been made to the USRAP to ensure that admission of Syrian refugees is consistent with the national interest.

(d) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of more than 50,000 refugees in fiscal year 2017 would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I determine that additional admissions would be in the national interest.

(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest — including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship — and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.

(f) The Secretary of State shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of the directive in subsection (b) of this section regarding prioritization of claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution within 100 days of the date of this order and shall submit a second report within 200 days of the date of this order.

(g) It is the policy of the executive branch that, to the extent permitted by law and as practicable, State and local jurisdictions be granted a role in the process of determining the placement or settlement in their jurisdictions of aliens eligible to be admitted to the United States as refugees. To that end, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall examine existing law to determine the extent to which, consistent with applicable law, State and local jurisdictions may have greater involvement in the process of determining the placement or resettlement of refugees in their jurisdictions, and shall devise a proposal to lawfully promote such involvement.

Sec. 6. Rescission of Exercise of Authority Relating to the Terrorism Grounds of Inadmissibility. The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Attorney General, consider rescinding the exercises of authority in section 212 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182, relating to the terrorism grounds of inadmissibility, as well as any related implementing memoranda.

Sec. 7. Expedited Completion of the Biometric Entry-Exit Tracking System. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall expedite the completion and implementation of a biometric entry-exit tracking system for all travelers to the United States, as recommended by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall submit to the President periodic reports on the progress of the directive contained in subsection (a) of this section. The initial report shall be submitted within 100 days of the date of this order, a second report shall be submitted within 200 days of the date of this order, and a third report shall be submitted within 365 days of the date of this order. Further, the Secretary shall submit a report every 180 days thereafter until the system is fully deployed and operational.

Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.

(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.

Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.

Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:

(i) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been charged with terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; convicted of terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; or removed from the United States based on terrorism-related activity, affiliation, or material support to a terrorism-related organization, or any other national security reasons since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later;

(ii) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been radicalized after entry into the United States and engaged in terrorism-related acts, or who have provided material support to terrorism-related organizations in countries that pose a threat to the United States, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iii) information regarding the number and types of acts of gender-based violence against women, including honor killings, in the United States by foreign nationals, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iv) any other information relevant to public safety and security as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, including information on the immigration status of foreign nationals charged with major offenses.

(b) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the date of this order, provide a report on the estimated long-term costs of the USRAP at the Federal, State, and local levels.

Sec. 11. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

I don't find anything particularly wrong with it, but it was badly executed. For example, people with valid visas who went to the foreign airport to fly to the US were detained at those airports. Why? That seems beyond pointless. People who were en-route when this took effect were detained at the entry airports. I think that has a somewhat better excuse in terms of adhering to the letter of the order, but for all practical purposes, letting a couple of hundred people in who missed the deadline by a few hours would not improve security.

I like that it calls for putting US security interests first. I like that it forbids entry by anyone who intends to practice religious/ cultural violence against women such as 'honor' killings (mentioned specifically), and, I presume genital mutilation and breast ironing. Such practices may be culturally acceptable elsewhere, and breast-ironing (for example) may be carried out by ignorant people with the best of intentions - but they have no place in this country.

And I like that it calls for a thorough review of policy (to close loopholes and improve practice), that it calls for a thorough review of international agreements (to insure true reciprocity), and that it calls for the collection of data.

OTOH, from what I know, this may be a solution to a non-problem. I agree that at this point Europe has a massive security problem due to the influx of so many refugees, the porous EU borders, and the inability of either the individual countries or the EU to track personal travel (visa-free border crossing). There are reliable estimates that Europe has tens of thousands of fully-trained, battle-hardened jihadists. The way it happened in Europe, refugees and jihadists poured into Turkey and Greece, and from there jihadists simply took a train, or walked, a few miles into the heart of the EU - where they disappeared.

But I don't see that problem here, and I don't think it could happen that way.

I would pay far more attention to our physical borders for illegal entry. Some jihadists already have agreement with S and C American drug cartels to smuggle drugs across the border to fund terrorist activities (kind of like selling Girl Scout cookies to fund Girl Scout activities!). And while that's enough of a concern, I can see it morphing into physically smuggling terrorists across the border.

And, fwiw I too find it extremely irritating to listen to people whinging about how immigration is a right (as heard on the local news, in a heavy Hispanic accent). If people feel so entitled, maybe they should try getting into - oh, let's say Australia - for a smack upside the head of reality.





How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes, I know THUGGER. I was helpfully highlighting the issues the so-called draft document has as a genuine item.
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
draft memo https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://assets.documentclo
ud.org/documents/3438487/Dissent-Memo.pdf


Has it been signed? Is it on the record? Or is this just another FAKE NEWS event?




The draft memo does not contain any signatures, and its contents are categorized as “Sensitive But Unclassified.” The use of “dissent memos” at the State Department dates back to the Vietnam War, when they were considered necessary to ensure that diplomats on the ground had a means to express opinions that differed with formal U.S. policy.

____________________________________________






How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:08 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


No 1kiki, you had suggested it was fake news. Still that pales to the fact that you believe it is OK for men to beat their wife's.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Yes, I know THUGGER. I was helpfully highlighting the issues the so-called draft document has as a genuine item.
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
draft memo https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://assets.documentclo
ud.org/documents/3438487/Dissent-Memo.pdf


Has it been signed? Is it on the record? Or is this just another FAKE NEWS event?




The draft memo does not contain any signatures, and its contents are categorized as “Sensitive But Unclassified.” The use of “dissent memos” at the State Department dates back to the Vietnam War, when they were considered necessary to ensure that diplomats on the ground had a means to express opinions that differed with formal U.S. policy.

____________________________________________






How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?



____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

the fact that you believe it is OK for men to beat their wife's (sic).
Are you lying AGAIN !!!?? Show me you're not! I dare you to find that quote!




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


fake news
- hoaxes, propaganda, and disinformation purporting to be real news

A fake document - like the so-called 'draft memo' - falls under the hoax category.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:41 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
fake news
- hoaxes, propaganda, and disinformation purporting to be real news

A fake document - like the so-called 'draft memo' - falls under the hoax category.



Still pales to the fact that you think it's OK for men to beat their wife's.

____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

the fact that you believe it is OK for men to beat their wife's (sic).
Are you lying AGAIN !!!?? Show me you're not! I dare you to find that quote!




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?


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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


back to the topic at hand
Signy

So, to respond to your post from here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61325
Quote:

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, and to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.

Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.

In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including “honor” killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall submit to the President a report on the results of the review described in subsection (a) of this section, including the Secretary of Homeland Security’s determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days of the date of this order. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall provide a copy of the report to the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence.

(c) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of nationals of Syria as refugees is detrimental to the interests of the United States and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I have determined that sufficient changes have been made to the USRAP to ensure that admission of Syrian refugees is consistent with the national interest.

(d) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of more than 50,000 refugees in fiscal year 2017 would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I determine that additional admissions would be in the national interest.

(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest — including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship — and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.

(f) The Secretary of State shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of the directive in subsection (b) of this section regarding prioritization of claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution within 100 days of the date of this order and shall submit a second report within 200 days of the date of this order.

(g) It is the policy of the executive branch that, to the extent permitted by law and as practicable, State and local jurisdictions be granted a role in the process of determining the placement or settlement in their jurisdictions of aliens eligible to be admitted to the United States as refugees. To that end, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall examine existing law to determine the extent to which, consistent with applicable law, State and local jurisdictions may have greater involvement in the process of determining the placement or resettlement of refugees in their jurisdictions, and shall devise a proposal to lawfully promote such involvement.

Sec. 6. Rescission of Exercise of Authority Relating to the Terrorism Grounds of Inadmissibility. The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Attorney General, consider rescinding the exercises of authority in section 212 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182, relating to the terrorism grounds of inadmissibility, as well as any related implementing memoranda.

Sec. 7. Expedited Completion of the Biometric Entry-Exit Tracking System. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall expedite the completion and implementation of a biometric entry-exit tracking system for all travelers to the United States, as recommended by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall submit to the President periodic reports on the progress of the directive contained in subsection (a) of this section. The initial report shall be submitted within 100 days of the date of this order, a second report shall be submitted within 200 days of the date of this order, and a third report shall be submitted within 365 days of the date of this order. Further, the Secretary shall submit a report every 180 days thereafter until the system is fully deployed and operational.

Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.

(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.

Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.

Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:

(i) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been charged with terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; convicted of terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; or removed from the United States based on terrorism-related activity, affiliation, or material support to a terrorism-related organization, or any other national security reasons since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later;

(ii) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been radicalized after entry into the United States and engaged in terrorism-related acts, or who have provided material support to terrorism-related organizations in countries that pose a threat to the United States, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iii) information regarding the number and types of acts of gender-based violence against women, including honor killings, in the United States by foreign nationals, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iv) any other information relevant to public safety and security as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, including information on the immigration status of foreign nationals charged with major offenses.

(b) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the date of this order, provide a report on the estimated long-term costs of the USRAP at the Federal, State, and local levels.

Sec. 11. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

I don't find anything particularly wrong with it, but it was badly executed. For example, people with valid visas who went to the foreign airport to fly to the US were detained at those airports. Why? That seems beyond pointless. People who were en-route when this took effect were detained at the entry airports. I think that has a somewhat better excuse in terms of adhering to the letter of the order, but for all practical purposes, letting a couple of hundred people in who missed the deadline by a few hours would not improve security.

I like that it calls for putting US security interests first. I like that it forbids entry by anyone who intends to practice religious/ cultural violence against women such as 'honor' killings (mentioned specifically), and, I presume genital mutilation and breast ironing. Such practices may be culturally acceptable elsewhere, and breast-ironing (for example) may be carried out by ignorant people with the best of intentions - but they have no place in this country.

And I like that it calls for a thorough review of policy (to close loopholes and improve practice), that it calls for a thorough review of international agreements (to insure true reciprocity), and that it calls for the collection of data.

OTOH, from what I know, this may be a solution to a non-problem. I agree that at this point Europe has a massive security problem due to the influx of so many refugees, the porous EU borders, and the inability of either the individual countries or the EU to track personal travel (visa-free border crossing). There are reliable estimates that Europe has tens of thousands of fully-trained, battle-hardened jihadists. The way it happened in Europe, refugees and jihadists poured into Turkey and Greece, and from there jihadists simply took a train, or walked, a few miles into the heart of the EU - where they disappeared.

But I don't see that problem here, and I don't think it could happen that way.

I would pay far more attention to our physical borders for illegal entry. Some jihadists already have agreement with S and C American drug cartels to smuggle drugs across the border to fund terrorist activities (kind of like selling Girl Scout cookies to fund Girl Scout activities!). And while that's enough of a concern, I can see it morphing into physically smuggling terrorists across the border.

And, fwiw I too find it extremely irritating to listen to people whinging about how immigration is a right (as heard on the local news, in a heavy Hispanic accent). If people feel so entitled, maybe they should try getting into - oh, let's say Australia - for a smack upside the head of reality.





How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?


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Monday, January 30, 2017 4:48 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!



Quote:

1kiki:
the fact that you believe it is OK for men to beat their wife's Are you lying AGAIN !!!?? Show me you're not! I dare you to find that quote!

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Are you lying AGAIN !!!?? Show me you're not! I dare you to find that quote!





I see you're locked up again and can't make a valid point.

You joined a discussion thread on the topic and not once did you criticize what was going on in Russia. Instead you pointed out that at least they were able to come together and pass a bill. Unbelievable 1kiki, that statement speaks for itself.

Russia parliament votes 380-3 to decriminalize domestic violence

Russia's parliament voted 380-3 on Friday to decriminalize domestic violence in cases where it does not cause "substantial bodily harm" and does not occur more than once a year.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/27/russian-parliament-decri
miinalizes-domestic-violence/97129912/


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Monday, January 30, 2017 5:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

the fact that you believe it is OK for men to beat their wife's (sic).
Quote:

and not once did you criticize what was going on
logical fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 5:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


back to the topic at hand
Signy

So, to respond to your post from here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61325
Quote:

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, and to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.

Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.

In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including “honor” killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall submit to the President a report on the results of the review described in subsection (a) of this section, including the Secretary of Homeland Security’s determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days of the date of this order. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall provide a copy of the report to the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence.

(c) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of nationals of Syria as refugees is detrimental to the interests of the United States and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I have determined that sufficient changes have been made to the USRAP to ensure that admission of Syrian refugees is consistent with the national interest.

(d) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of more than 50,000 refugees in fiscal year 2017 would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I determine that additional admissions would be in the national interest.

(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest — including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship — and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.

(f) The Secretary of State shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of the directive in subsection (b) of this section regarding prioritization of claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution within 100 days of the date of this order and shall submit a second report within 200 days of the date of this order.

(g) It is the policy of the executive branch that, to the extent permitted by law and as practicable, State and local jurisdictions be granted a role in the process of determining the placement or settlement in their jurisdictions of aliens eligible to be admitted to the United States as refugees. To that end, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall examine existing law to determine the extent to which, consistent with applicable law, State and local jurisdictions may have greater involvement in the process of determining the placement or resettlement of refugees in their jurisdictions, and shall devise a proposal to lawfully promote such involvement.

Sec. 6. Rescission of Exercise of Authority Relating to the Terrorism Grounds of Inadmissibility. The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Attorney General, consider rescinding the exercises of authority in section 212 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182, relating to the terrorism grounds of inadmissibility, as well as any related implementing memoranda.

Sec. 7. Expedited Completion of the Biometric Entry-Exit Tracking System. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall expedite the completion and implementation of a biometric entry-exit tracking system for all travelers to the United States, as recommended by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall submit to the President periodic reports on the progress of the directive contained in subsection (a) of this section. The initial report shall be submitted within 100 days of the date of this order, a second report shall be submitted within 200 days of the date of this order, and a third report shall be submitted within 365 days of the date of this order. Further, the Secretary shall submit a report every 180 days thereafter until the system is fully deployed and operational.

Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.

(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.

Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.

Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:

(i) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been charged with terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; convicted of terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; or removed from the United States based on terrorism-related activity, affiliation, or material support to a terrorism-related organization, or any other national security reasons since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later;

(ii) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been radicalized after entry into the United States and engaged in terrorism-related acts, or who have provided material support to terrorism-related organizations in countries that pose a threat to the United States, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iii) information regarding the number and types of acts of gender-based violence against women, including honor killings, in the United States by foreign nationals, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iv) any other information relevant to public safety and security as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, including information on the immigration status of foreign nationals charged with major offenses.

(b) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the date of this order, provide a report on the estimated long-term costs of the USRAP at the Federal, State, and local levels.

Sec. 11. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

I don't find anything particularly wrong with it, but it was badly executed. For example, people with valid visas who went to the foreign airport to fly to the US were detained at those airports. Why? That seems beyond pointless. People who were en-route when this took effect were detained at the entry airports. I think that has a somewhat better excuse in terms of adhering to the letter of the order, but for all practical purposes, letting a couple of hundred people in who missed the deadline by a few hours would not improve security.

I like that it calls for putting US security interests first. I like that it forbids entry by anyone who intends to practice religious/ cultural violence against women such as 'honor' killings (mentioned specifically), and, I presume genital mutilation and breast ironing. Such practices may be culturally acceptable elsewhere, and breast-ironing (for example) may be carried out by ignorant people with the best of intentions - but they have no place in this country.

And I like that it calls for a thorough review of policy (to close loopholes and improve practice), that it calls for a thorough review of international agreements (to insure true reciprocity), and that it calls for the collection of data.

OTOH, from what I know, this may be a solution to a non-problem. I agree that at this point Europe has a massive security problem due to the influx of so many refugees, the porous EU borders, and the inability of either the individual countries or the EU to track personal travel (visa-free border crossing). There are reliable estimates that Europe has tens of thousands of fully-trained, battle-hardened jihadists. The way it happened in Europe, refugees and jihadists poured into Turkey and Greece, and from there jihadists simply took a train, or walked, a few miles into the heart of the EU - where they disappeared.

But I don't see that problem here, and I don't think it could happen that way.

I would pay far more attention to our physical borders for illegal entry. Some jihadists already have agreement with S and C American drug cartels to smuggle drugs across the border to fund terrorist activities (kind of like selling Girl Scout cookies to fund Girl Scout activities!). And while that's enough of a concern, I can see it morphing into physically smuggling terrorists across the border.

And, fwiw I too find it extremely irritating to listen to people whinging about how immigration is a right (as heard on the local news, in a heavy Hispanic accent). If people feel so entitled, maybe they should try getting into - oh, let's say Australia - for a smack upside the head of reality.





How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?



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Monday, January 30, 2017 5:41 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

the fact that you believe it is OK for men to beat their wife's (sic).
Quote:

and not once did you criticize what was going on
logical fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies




Logical fallacy 1kiki is a style of argument to convince people where the focus is on communication and results, rather than the correctness of the logic, and if the point being advanced is correct or not.

It doesn't apply 1kiki because when confronted with what Russia was doing you did respond. At least they passed a bill you said. You did not condemn the action at all. The rest of us are allowed to draw an inference from that. A conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.

So it stands. You believe it is acceptable for men to beat their wives. If you believe otherwise all you have to do is condemn what Russia did.

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Monday, January 30, 2017 5:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

It doesn't apply 1kiki because when confronted with what Russia was doing you did respond.
You mean the rules of valid argument don't apply to you when you violate them? I'd sure like to see that exception in wiki.

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic.

When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.

Go to it, little boy.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 5:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


back to the topic at hand
Signy

So, to respond to your post from here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61325
Quote:

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, and to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.

Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.

In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including “honor” killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall submit to the President a report on the results of the review described in subsection (a) of this section, including the Secretary of Homeland Security’s determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days of the date of this order. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall provide a copy of the report to the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence.

(c) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of nationals of Syria as refugees is detrimental to the interests of the United States and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I have determined that sufficient changes have been made to the USRAP to ensure that admission of Syrian refugees is consistent with the national interest.

(d) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of more than 50,000 refugees in fiscal year 2017 would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I determine that additional admissions would be in the national interest.

(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest — including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship — and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.

(f) The Secretary of State shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of the directive in subsection (b) of this section regarding prioritization of claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution within 100 days of the date of this order and shall submit a second report within 200 days of the date of this order.

(g) It is the policy of the executive branch that, to the extent permitted by law and as practicable, State and local jurisdictions be granted a role in the process of determining the placement or settlement in their jurisdictions of aliens eligible to be admitted to the United States as refugees. To that end, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall examine existing law to determine the extent to which, consistent with applicable law, State and local jurisdictions may have greater involvement in the process of determining the placement or resettlement of refugees in their jurisdictions, and shall devise a proposal to lawfully promote such involvement.

Sec. 6. Rescission of Exercise of Authority Relating to the Terrorism Grounds of Inadmissibility. The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Attorney General, consider rescinding the exercises of authority in section 212 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182, relating to the terrorism grounds of inadmissibility, as well as any related implementing memoranda.

Sec. 7. Expedited Completion of the Biometric Entry-Exit Tracking System. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall expedite the completion and implementation of a biometric entry-exit tracking system for all travelers to the United States, as recommended by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall submit to the President periodic reports on the progress of the directive contained in subsection (a) of this section. The initial report shall be submitted within 100 days of the date of this order, a second report shall be submitted within 200 days of the date of this order, and a third report shall be submitted within 365 days of the date of this order. Further, the Secretary shall submit a report every 180 days thereafter until the system is fully deployed and operational.

Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.

(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.

Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.

Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:

(i) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been charged with terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; convicted of terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; or removed from the United States based on terrorism-related activity, affiliation, or material support to a terrorism-related organization, or any other national security reasons since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later;

(ii) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been radicalized after entry into the United States and engaged in terrorism-related acts, or who have provided material support to terrorism-related organizations in countries that pose a threat to the United States, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iii) information regarding the number and types of acts of gender-based violence against women, including honor killings, in the United States by foreign nationals, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iv) any other information relevant to public safety and security as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, including information on the immigration status of foreign nationals charged with major offenses.

(b) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the date of this order, provide a report on the estimated long-term costs of the USRAP at the Federal, State, and local levels.

Sec. 11. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

I don't find anything particularly wrong with it, but it was badly executed. For example, people with valid visas who went to the foreign airport to fly to the US were detained at those airports. Why? That seems beyond pointless. People who were en-route when this took effect were detained at the entry airports. I think that has a somewhat better excuse in terms of adhering to the letter of the order, but for all practical purposes, letting a couple of hundred people in who missed the deadline by a few hours would not improve security.

I like that it calls for putting US security interests first. I like that it forbids entry by anyone who intends to practice religious/ cultural violence against women such as 'honor' killings (mentioned specifically), and, I presume genital mutilation and breast ironing. Such practices may be culturally acceptable elsewhere, and breast-ironing (for example) may be carried out by ignorant people with the best of intentions - but they have no place in this country.

And I like that it calls for a thorough review of policy (to close loopholes and improve practice), that it calls for a thorough review of international agreements (to insure true reciprocity), and that it calls for the collection of data.

OTOH, from what I know, this may be a solution to a non-problem. I agree that at this point Europe has a massive security problem due to the influx of so many refugees, the porous EU borders, and the inability of either the individual countries or the EU to track personal travel (visa-free border crossing). There are reliable estimates that Europe has tens of thousands of fully-trained, battle-hardened jihadists. The way it happened in Europe, refugees and jihadists poured into Turkey and Greece, and from there jihadists simply took a train, or walked, a few miles into the heart of the EU - where they disappeared.

But I don't see that problem here, and I don't think it could happen that way.

I would pay far more attention to our physical borders for illegal entry. Some jihadists already have agreement with S and C American drug cartels to smuggle drugs across the border to fund terrorist activities (kind of like selling Girl Scout cookies to fund Girl Scout activities!). And while that's enough of a concern, I can see it morphing into physically smuggling terrorists across the border.

And, fwiw I too find it extremely irritating to listen to people whinging about how immigration is a right (as heard on the local news, in a heavy Hispanic accent). If people feel so entitled, maybe they should try getting into - oh, let's say Australia - for a smack upside the head of reality.





How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?









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Monday, January 30, 2017 6:03 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

It doesn't apply 1kiki because when confronted with what Russia was doing you did respond.
You mean the rules of valid argument don't apply to you when you violate them? I'd sure like to see that exception in wiki.

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic.

When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.

Go to it, little boy.



And yet again folks, not a word against Russia easing laws against domestic violence allowing men to beat their wives. You may now draw your own inference.

Go to it little girl, condemn what Russia did.

____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 6:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
And yet again folks, not a word against Russia easing laws against domestic violence ...

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic.
THUGGER is claiming that because it hasn't found evidence to the contrary, its claim must be true. It is making an argument from ignorance. (evidence does exist in others threads not presented here.) As wiki explains, the argument from ignorance is often used to shift the burden of proof. To have me show proof its claim is false rather than it showing that its claim is true. And so, it demonstrated quite nicely how it employs another logical fallacy in tandem with the first.

When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.

Go to it, it.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 6:28 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


look at all the pretty colors, lines and words designed to deflect folks, as you look for and again can't find one word from 1kiki against Russias crippling, of the laws against domestic violence allowing men to beat their wives. Were is your condemnation of this 1kiki.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
And yet again folks, not a word against Russia easing laws against domestic violence ...

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic.

THUGGER is claiming that because he hasn't found evidence to the contrary, his claim must be true. It is making an argument from ignorance. (evidence does exist in others threads not presented here.) As wiki explains, the argument from ignorance is often used to shift the burden of proof. To have me show proof his claim is false rather than it showing that its claim is true. And so, it demonstrated quite nicely how it employs another logical fallacy in tandem with the first.

When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.

Go to it, it.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?



____________________________________________

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Monday, January 30, 2017 6:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And in this entire thread you can't find one bit of proof the troll has posted to back up its claims.

In fact, its entire argument is based on lies and logical fallacies like argumentum ad hominem, argument from ignorance, shifting the burden of proof, and argument from repetition.

Nice going, troll! Maybe you'll work your way to being banned from the board entirely.

In fact, I feel an email to Haken coming on.




How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, January 30, 2017 6:40 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And in this entire thread you can't find one bit of proof the troll has posted to back up its claims.

In fact, its entire argument is based on lies and logical fallacies like argumentum ad hominem, argument from ignorance, shifting the burden of proof, and argument from repetition.

Nice going, troll! Maybe you'll work your way to being banned from the board entirely.

In fact, I feel an email to Haken coming on.




Are you so ignorant that you do not realize that your refusal over and over again to condemn what Russia did, is all the proof I need. And again, if there is a troll here it is Russian made.

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Monday, January 30, 2017 7:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



back to the topic at hand
Signy

So, to respond to your post from here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61325
Quote:

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, and to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.

Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.

In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including “honor” killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall submit to the President a report on the results of the review described in subsection (a) of this section, including the Secretary of Homeland Security’s determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days of the date of this order. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall provide a copy of the report to the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence.

(c) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of nationals of Syria as refugees is detrimental to the interests of the United States and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I have determined that sufficient changes have been made to the USRAP to ensure that admission of Syrian refugees is consistent with the national interest.

(d) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of more than 50,000 refugees in fiscal year 2017 would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I determine that additional admissions would be in the national interest.

(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest — including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship — and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.

(f) The Secretary of State shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of the directive in subsection (b) of this section regarding prioritization of claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution within 100 days of the date of this order and shall submit a second report within 200 days of the date of this order.

(g) It is the policy of the executive branch that, to the extent permitted by law and as practicable, State and local jurisdictions be granted a role in the process of determining the placement or settlement in their jurisdictions of aliens eligible to be admitted to the United States as refugees. To that end, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall examine existing law to determine the extent to which, consistent with applicable law, State and local jurisdictions may have greater involvement in the process of determining the placement or resettlement of refugees in their jurisdictions, and shall devise a proposal to lawfully promote such involvement.

Sec. 6. Rescission of Exercise of Authority Relating to the Terrorism Grounds of Inadmissibility. The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Attorney General, consider rescinding the exercises of authority in section 212 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182, relating to the terrorism grounds of inadmissibility, as well as any related implementing memoranda.

Sec. 7. Expedited Completion of the Biometric Entry-Exit Tracking System. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall expedite the completion and implementation of a biometric entry-exit tracking system for all travelers to the United States, as recommended by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.

(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall submit to the President periodic reports on the progress of the directive contained in subsection (a) of this section. The initial report shall be submitted within 100 days of the date of this order, a second report shall be submitted within 200 days of the date of this order, and a third report shall be submitted within 365 days of the date of this order. Further, the Secretary shall submit a report every 180 days thereafter until the system is fully deployed and operational.

Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.

(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.

Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.

Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:

(i) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been charged with terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; convicted of terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; or removed from the United States based on terrorism-related activity, affiliation, or material support to a terrorism-related organization, or any other national security reasons since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later;

(ii) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been radicalized after entry into the United States and engaged in terrorism-related acts, or who have provided material support to terrorism-related organizations in countries that pose a threat to the United States, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iii) information regarding the number and types of acts of gender-based violence against women, including honor killings, in the United States by foreign nationals, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and

(iv) any other information relevant to public safety and security as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, including information on the immigration status of foreign nationals charged with major offenses.

(b) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the date of this order, provide a report on the estimated long-term costs of the USRAP at the Federal, State, and local levels.

Sec. 11. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

I don't find anything particularly wrong with it, but it was badly executed. For example, people with valid visas who went to the foreign airport to fly to the US were detained at those airports. Why? That seems beyond pointless. People who were en-route when this took effect were detained at the entry airports. I think that has a somewhat better excuse in terms of adhering to the letter of the order, but for all practical purposes, letting a couple of hundred people in who missed the deadline by a few hours would not improve security.

I like that it calls for putting US security interests first. I like that it forbids entry by anyone who intends to practice religious/ cultural violence against women such as 'honor' killings (mentioned specifically), and, I presume genital mutilation and breast ironing. Such practices may be culturally acceptable elsewhere, and breast-ironing (for example) may be carried out by ignorant people with the best of intentions - but they have no place in this country.

And I like that it calls for a thorough review of policy (to close loopholes and improve practice), that it calls for a thorough review of international agreements (to insure true reciprocity), and that it calls for the collection of data.

OTOH, from what I know, this may be a solution to a non-problem. I agree that at this point Europe has a massive security problem due to the influx of so many refugees, the porous EU borders, and the inability of either the individual countries or the EU to track personal travel (visa-free border crossing). There are reliable estimates that Europe has tens of thousands of fully-trained, battle-hardened jihadists. The way it happened in Europe, refugees and jihadists poured into Turkey and Greece, and from there jihadists simply took a train, or walked, a few miles into the heart of the EU - where they disappeared.

But I don't see that problem here, and I don't think it could happen that way.

I would pay far more attention to our physical borders for illegal entry. Some jihadists already have agreement with S and C American drug cartels to smuggle drugs across the border to fund terrorist activities (kind of like selling Girl Scout cookies to fund Girl Scout activities!). And while that's enough of a concern, I can see it morphing into physically smuggling terrorists across the border.

And, fwiw I too find it extremely irritating to listen to people whinging about how immigration is a right (as heard on the local news, in a heavy Hispanic accent). If people feel so entitled, maybe they should try getting into - oh, let's say Australia - for a smack upside the head of reality.





How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?










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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 7:38 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Apparently, TRUMP'S policy was based on Obama's policy:

Quote:

7 Countries Targeted in Trump’s Executive Order Initially Identified as ‘Countries of Concern’ Under Obama Administration


The seven Muslim-majority countries targeted by President Donald Trump in his executive order on immigration were initially identified as “countries of concern” under the Obama administration.

... In December 2015, President Barack Obama signed into law a measure placing restrictions on certain travelers who had visited Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria on or after March 1, 2011. Two months later, the Obama administration added Libya, Somalia, and Yemen to the list, in an effort, the administration said, to address “the growing threat from foreign terrorist fighters.”

The restrictions specifically limited what is known as visa-waiver travel by those who had visited one of the seven countries within the specified time period. People who previously could have entered the United States without a visa were instead required to apply for one if they had traveled to one of the seven countries.

Under the law, dual citizens of visa-waiver countries and Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria could no longer travel to the U.S. without a visa. Dual citizens of Libya, Somalia, and Yemen could, however, still use the visa-waiver program if they hadn’t traveled to any of the seven countries after March 2011.



I guess when Obama does it, it's OK! So, in the basis of hearing NO OBJECTIONS to the OBAMA policy from all of the usual miscreants on the board, let's assume that they were FOR BANNING TRAVELERS FROM CERTAIN NATIONS OF CONCERN WHEN OBAMA DID, and must therefore be OK with the same policy under Trump.

THUGR, if KIKI doesn't write to Haken, I will. A sampling of your last .... say ... 50 posts would reveal YOU to be the troll. YOU have not once argued the argument, you have simply attacked the person. Don you have ANY idea what a discussion board is??? Any at all??? OR, let me rephrase that.... do you have ANY idea what a discussion is, and how to be part of one??? Or do you want to be the jerk who just drunkenly name-calls from the sidelines?



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 8:40 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Apparently, TRUMP'S policy was based on Obama's policy:

I guess when Obama does it, it's OK!

Trump's executive order “Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States” will allow all the countries that sent the 9-11 terrorists to send more terrorists. Trump has business deals in all the 9-11 terrorist countries. That is why Trump's order does NOT protect the USA from actual terrorists.

www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-immigration-ban-conflict-of-inte
rest
/

Is Trump's “Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States” a humorously ironic title for his order? Or is Trump deliberately misleading?

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 8:53 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Personally, I think it would be fun for Trump to ban all Saudi Arabians since they were most of the 9-11 terrorists. Even more fun would be the King of Saudi Arabia retaliating by closing all Trump's businesses.

Trump lists companies on his FEC filing possibly related to a development project in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia’s second-biggest city, located outside Mecca: DT Jeddah Technical Services Manager LLC, DT Jeddah Technical Services Manager Member Corp., THC Jeddah Hotel Manager LLC and THC Jeddah Hotel Manager Member Corp.
www.bloomberg.com/graphics/tracking-trumps-web-of-conflicts/

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 9:03 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


So much wrong with what you posted. A link would be nice for one.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Apparently, TRUMP'S policy was based on Obama's policy:



"Apparently?" So you just found this out too? Kind of makes the point that Obama did it better, on the down low. UNLESS of course this was meant to be so public. But it's not the same as you suggest (and you know it = you lie).

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

7 Countries Targeted in Trump’s Executive Order Initially Identified as ‘Countries of Concern’ Under Obama Administration


The seven Muslim-majority countries targeted by President Donald Trump in his executive order on immigration were initially identified as “countries of concern” under the Obama administration.

... In December 2015, President Barack Obama signed into law a measure placing restrictions on certain travelers who had visited Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria on or after March 1, 2011. Two months later, the Obama administration added Libya, Somalia, and Yemen to the list, in an effort, the administration said, to address “the growing threat from foreign terrorist fighters.”

The restrictions specifically limited what is known as visa-waiver travel by those who had visited one of the seven countries within the specified time period. People who previously could have entered the United States without a visa were instead required to apply for one if they had traveled to one of the seven countries.

Under the law, dual citizens of visa-waiver countries and Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria could no longer travel to the U.S. without a visa. Dual citizens of Libya, Somalia, and Yemen could, however, still use the visa-waiver program if they hadn’t traveled to any of the seven countries after March 2011.





"Certain travelers" - ? Were they all Muslims? Was Obama interested in ONLY Muslims? Was he excluding Christians? It's totally different than Trump's ban. This is the problem with much of what Trump has done so far:

- he's a proven, verifiable liar. Therefore, anything he's going to do will be scrutinized through that filter. In this case, he says rather fake righteously, "It's to protect 300+ million Americans!" And yet the architecture of this ban does not bear that out. Either he is lying again or a fool.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess when Obama does it, it's OK! So, in the basis of hearing NO OBJECTIONS to the OBAMA policy from all of the usual miscreants on the board, let's assume that they were FOR BANNING TRAVELERS FROM CERTAIN NATIONS OF CONCERN WHEN OBAMA DID, and must therefore be OK with the same policy under Trump.



How could we object to something we - including you - just heard about? You're such a fraud.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR, if KIKI doesn't write to Haken, I will.



SIGNYM threatens and throws a tantrum when she doesn't get her way. She wants the board to herself so she can lie without being challenged - just her and her cheerleader 'lil Kookee. Maybe you should start your own board where you can limit free speech and make up all the sh*t you want without fear of contradiction?

Here's a concept: lie less and you'll be called out less.

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 9:40 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
This is the problem with much of what Trump has done so far:

- he's a proven, verifiable liar. Therefore, anything he's going to do will be scrutinized through that filter.

A better filter is that Trump's close advisor, Steve Bannon, wants a War Against Islam. The immigration order is the opening salvo. Bannon has wanted that war for many years, which reminds me that Bush's advisors wanted a war with Iraq for many years before they were in the White House. That Iraq War was a very bad idea, and poorly planned. Bannon's War is an even worse idea and I could be easily convinced that Trump would do an even worse job than Bush at planning his war.

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/trumps-immigration-order-just-o
pening-salvo-steve-bannons-war-against-islam

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 10:04 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by G:
This is the problem with much of what Trump has done so far:

- he's a proven, verifiable liar. Therefore, anything he's going to do will be scrutinized through that filter.

A better filter is that Trump's close advisor, Steve Bannon, wants a War Against Islam. The immigration order is the opening salvo. Bannon has wanted that war for many years, which reminds me that Bush's advisors wanted a war with Iraq for many years before they were in the White House. That Iraq War was a very bad idea, and poorly planned. Bannon's War is an even worse idea and I could be easily convinced that Trump would do an even worse job than Bush at planning his war.

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/01/trumps-immigration-order-just-o
pening-salvo-steve-bannons-war-against-islam



There aren't many options:

1. It's a lie - which is pretty obvious. The premise of it being to protect Americans is easily proven false. So it must be some other motivation and the one you suggest is foremost.
2. It's genuine. The writers sincerely believe they are trying to protect the US. In which case it's proof of gross incompetence.




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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 10:35 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by G:

There aren't many options:

1. It's a lie - which is pretty obvious. The premise of it being to protect Americans is easily proven false. So it must be some other motivation and the one you suggest is foremost.
2. It's genuine. The writers sincerely believe they are trying to protect the US. In which case it's proof of gross incompetence.

How about: 3. It is Steve Bannon being deliberately ironic.

Senator Angus King of Maine said the Trump administration’s controversial travel ban, “What it’s done is played right into ISIS’ hands.”

The Maine independent who caucuses with Democrats is on the Intelligence Committee and said he spends most of his time focused on how international affairs impact the US.

He said the President’s ban advances ISIS’ goals.

“They want us to turn this into a war of the west against Islam. They have explicitly said they want to drive a wedge between peaceful, nonviolent Muslims and the West, particularly America,” King said.

Both ISIS and Trump’s advisor, Steve Bannon, want the same thing: a war. The only disagreement ISIS and Bannon have is who will win. You could make a case that USA won the Iraq War. You could make a better case that it lost if you consider the cost in money, time and lives. The same confusion of opinions will eventually apply to Bannon’s War after Trump has gone to the same place Bush went – out of power.

http://fox6now.com/2017/01/31/sen-angus-king-travel-ban-probably-the-w
orst-foreign-policy-decision-since-iraq
/

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 12:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

Trump's executive order “Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States” will allow all the countries that sent the 9-11 terrorists to send more terrorists. Trump has business deals in all the 9-11 terrorist countries. That is why Trump's order does NOT protect the USA from actual terrorists.


First of all, did you notice that the Executive Order did not NAME the nations involved?

Instead, it referenced a list found elsewhere. So, let's see .... where was the list, and who made it?

By golly, it was OBAMA'S list! And he named these nations as "nations of concern"

Quote:

The Department of Homeland Security targeted these seven countries over the last years as countries of concern. In February 2016
When Obama was President

Quote:

“The Department of Homeland Security today announced that it is continuing its implementation of the Visa Waiver Program Improvement and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 with the addition of Libya, Somalia, and Yemen as three countries of concern, limiting Visa Waiver Program travel for certain individuals who have traveled to these countries.” It noted “the three additional countries designated today join Iran, Iraq, Sudan and Syria as countries subject to restrictions for Visa Waiver Program travel for certain individuals.”

It was the US policy under Obama to restrict and target people “who have been present in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, at any time on or after March 1, 2011 (with limited government/military exceptions).” This was text of the US Customs and Border Protection in 2015

When Obama was President

Quote:

relating to “the Visa Waiver Program and Terrorist Travel Protection Act of 2015“. The link even includes the seven nation list in it: “Iraq, Syria, Iran, SUdan, Somalia or Yemen.” And the media knew this back in May 2016 when some civil rights groups complained about it. “These restrictions have provoked an outcry from the Iranian-American community, as well as Arab-American and civil-liberties groups, who say the restrictions on dual nationals and certain travelers are discriminatory and could be imposed against American dual nationals.”

https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-mu
slim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you
/


But I'm glad that you recognize

1) That Saudi Arabia and Qatar SHOULD have been on Trump's list. That means that you recognize that

2) Saudi Arabia and Qatar are main sponsors of terror, and

3) That any current AND FORMER administrations and officials who cozy up to Saudi Arabia and Qatar: funding, arming, and training their terrorist proxies; accepting donations from; and maintaining close personal relationships with those Royal Family members who either tacitly or actively promote terrorism, are exposing the USA to the risk or terrorism and might be investigated for treason.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 1:39 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

First of all, did you notice that the Executive Order did not NAME the nations involved?

Instead, it referenced a list found elsewhere. So, let's see .... where was the list, and who made it?

By golly, it was OBAMA'S list! And he named these nations as "nations of concern"

Very convincing, Signym, except it’s going to be hard to argue the executive order doesn’t discriminate against Muslims when Rudy Giuliani says the president asked him to do just that.

The biggest problem for the administration on television this weekend didn’t come from an administration official at all. It came from former campaign adviser Rudy Giuliani — who told Fox News, late Saturday, that Trump asked him and others do figure out how to do a Muslim ban "legally".

The "legally" is why it is only seven nations. And Saudi Arabia, where the 9-11 terrorists came from, is not the eighth country because Trump has businesses there and the King of Saudi Arabia would burn down Trump's businesses if Trump had added Saudi Arabia to the list. That is such an egregious conflict of interest between what is best for Trump's fortune and best for the USA.

www.vox.com/2017/1/29/14430478/trump-admit-muslim-ban-giuliani

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 1:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


Quote:

The "legally" is why it is only seven nations. And Saudi Arabia, where the 9-11 terrorists came from, is not the eighth country because Trump has businesses there and the King of Saudi Arabia would burn down Trump's businesses if Trump had added Saudi Arabia to the list. That is such an egregious conflict of interest between what is best for Trump's fortune and best for the USA.
Bullshit. Pure unmitigated bullshit. The list came from OBAMA, so why didn't OBAMA put Saudi Arabia on the list?

Oh and by the way, the most populous Muslim nation is Indonesia, so if this were a ban on "Muslims" I would think that Indonesia would be a prime target.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 2:08 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Bullshit. Pure unmitigated bullshit. The list came from OBAMA, so why didn't OBAMA put Saudi Arabia on the list?

It was not Obama who choose those seven nations. It was Republican Candice Miller, who slid the H.R. 158 rider into the must-pass budget bill, the Omnibus Appropriations Bill 2015. So now you’re blaming Obama for some sneaky and misleading Republican legislative rider. Signym, you are being very sneaky and misleading, too!

www.snopes.com/trump-immigration-order-obama/

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:04 PM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
By golly, it was OBAMA'S list! And he named these nations as "nations of concern"



Right, the administration that can't wait to call it TrumpCare and said Obama was a muslim and an illegal president is going to copy Obama's lead. That makes so much sense!

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Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:44 PM

THGRRI

May the Good Lord take a liking to you... but not too soon!


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
By golly, it was OBAMA'S list! And he named these nations as "nations of concern"



Right, the administration that can't wait to call it TrumpCare and said Obama was a muslim and an illegal president is going to copy Obama's lead. That makes so much sense!



Tell me if you disagree G and Second. It appears to me SIG, 1kiki and the Trump administration are hiding... behind Obama. Now that's funny.

____________________________________________

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