REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A thread for Democrats Only

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Thursday, July 19, 2018 14:41
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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I have explained it, re-explained it, and re-re-explained it, well over a dozen times.

Anybody who doesn't get it BY NOW is an idiot.

Like Jack-shit.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Monday, May 7, 2018 7:25 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So ... what do I propose?

Closing down a lot of military bases, mothballing our useless fleets of destroyers, and shuttering expensive military projects. Aside from an EMP or cyberattack, there's simply no master-military stroke, ie NCBW, that an enemy can launch that will not ultimately circle the globe and bite them in the ass. Ramping up doomsday weapons lethality and numbers is a race to the edge of a cliff. NOBODY wins, even if one side decimates the other as they both fall all the way down to the bottom.

Now, a lot of young people from flyover country join the military because it's the only steady job around.

I propose we put our military to better use - we teach these men and women a trade or three, like welding, carpentry, heavy machinery operating, machining, nursing, radiology- pulmonary- EKG-technician, electrical installation ... etc. And then we put them to work clearing forest overgrowth and underbrush, planting new forests, building artificial reefs to protect our shores from storm surges, building roads and bridges, creating housing in slum areas, caring for people in underserved areas. And so on. The list is only limited by your grasp of all the things that need to be done.


THIS IS STEP ONE paid for with existing taxes, repurposed






So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Tuesday, May 8, 2018 8:09 AM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, I have read neither Marx nor Engels. And not only have I NOT proposed a workers utopia, I haven't called for a redistribution of wealth. All I've proposed so far is a re-purposing of tax dollars already collected.

Since, AS ALWAYS, your post neither accurately portrays mine nor responds to it, I will assume that you're strawmanning (lying) and/ or changing the subject. AS ALWAYS.

Do you think you can learn to discuss anything with anyone with at least a small amount of honesty? Or is that completely beyond you? And I have to ask - are you really the sane one in your family?





So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Tuesday, May 8, 2018 8:34 AM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, SECOND - here are the questions you need to address to respond to my post: what do you think of re-purposing the military to 1) provide valuable skills to the members, 2) provide jobs, and 3) perform important unaddressed tasks to society and the nation?




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Friday, May 11, 2018 5:17 AM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I had a VERY SPECIFIC suggestion as to how to improve people's lives without trying to create a worker's utopia or have massive redistribution of wealth, and it involved re-purposing the military. SECOND has managed to not actually discuss my post at all.

But it does certainly snark and troll at every post.

SECOND is a troll.




So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Saturday, May 12, 2018 12:14 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So here I am, making a simple suggestion that we redirect the military - from pointless, money-wasting adventures overseas and boondoggle military projects, to useful, value-producing work at home.

It seems a modest proposal, and non-partisan, in that neither side has any financial or cultural reason to be more against it than the other.

And SECOND doesn't seem to have anything negative to say about it, because he has done nothing but ignore, mis-direct, misrepresent, and post ad hominems - ie, troll. It looks like he's doing everything BUT address the point.

But I'm curious what other people think.


Set aside your preconceptions about whether or not it might be implemented.

Would it work?






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Saturday, May 12, 2018 3:56 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You missed one important aspect of redirecting the military proper - jobs.

"The projected active duty end strength in the armed forces for fiscal year 2017 was 1,281,900 servicemembers, with an additional 801,200 people in the seven reserve components."

The military proper is a total of roughly 1.3 million jobs. That's 1.3 million people not receiving unemployment.

Thanks for not answering the question.

Perhaps someone else could chime in, since SECOND can't address the actual topic.


We could redirect the military - from pointless, money-wasting adventures overseas, to useful, value-producing work at home.

It seems a modest proposal, and non-partisan, in that neither side has any financial or cultural reason to be more against it than the other. Set aside your preconceptions about whether or not it might be implemented.

Would it work? Is this a way to improve the value the members of this society receive from the society, within the bounds of our current economic system?





SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Saturday, May 12, 2018 7:58 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"just try to put 1.3 million soldiers patrolling up and down the streets of the country"

I wasn't thinking of any military-style work. Just work on public lands like restoration and conservation, or for public projects like infrastructure, or in public hospitals in underserved areas.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sunday, May 13, 2018 1:39 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Since we're already spending the money for the military, it makes sense to simply give them different assignments.

As for this being a "good job", "the initial monthly pay for the lowest rank, E-1, is $1,531.50 per month" or somewhat less than $6.50 an hour. And then, you live on base, go to bed when they tell you to, get up when they tell you to, run when they tell you to, eat what they give you, and so on. On top of that, they have some very specific rules covering things you and I might think of as our personal life, like no adultery. Violating that, and other rules they have, will get you kicked out.

There's one individual advantage to my plan above and beyond military service and above a private job, which is the training to get good skills. A potential social advantage is that females may be more attracted to a non-combat army, and would acquire weapons expertise, putting them in a less disadvantaged position to men re guns in civilian life.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Monday, May 14, 2018 7:24 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Quote:

One thing women aren't attracted to are men that make $6.50 an hour. That's a fact.
Uh ... what does that have to do with anything? What point are you addressing? None that I made.
Quote:

First of all, the training is worthless if those skills are learning things that could only get you a job making $6.50 an hour.
That's why I specified skills such as carpentry, electrician, heavy machinery operation, various medical technician jobs etc. It pays to read what people post so you don't waste both our time going over silly arguments.
Quote:

... we'd be massively undercutting what the pay for that work should be with our own taxpayer dollars.
Which is why I specified public works type jobs, and service in public institutions, that are not now being performed. Again ... read what people post.
Quote:

At that rate of pay, nobody would do it. It's hard work. Sometimes even grueling work. I can't think of a single person who would do it for $6.50 an hour when they could go to Walmart and push carts for almost twice as much money.
But people join the army and put health, limb, brain, their individual identity, and life on the line for that rate of pay. I'm not seeing your point on this either.


Quote:

Pay grade for E-1 in 2018 is reportedly 1,638 per month.
http://work.chron.com/much-enlisted-army-soldiers-make-28798.html for my figure. Note that my figure was for 2014, not 2018.
Quote:

Which would be about $9.45/hr at 40 hours/week.
But you are on base at the army's beck and call and on their schedule 24/7. *IF* your time 'at work' was limited to 40 hours per week, it would be about 9.40 an hour for an average roughly 30.5-day month.
Quote:

Maybe your stoner bimbos cannot comprehend, ...
Why are you arguing that point with me? I didn't make it. Six did.
My point was that if you are married you cannot fool around. IF YOU ARE SINGLE you can't fool around with a married person either. Both are adultery and will get you canned.
Some people might find those 'hey, it's MY personal life' restrictions will cramp their style.


Quote:

This would all be a lot different if we were talking about putting military to work in non military infrastructure jobs at home.
I for one, would not support the free room and board for these people on taxpayer dime. It would be far too close to having a standing army on our own shores.

Some people* would argue that, Constitutionally, we're not supposed to have a standing army at all. (*This has never been addressed in the courts.) And yet, through the miracle of reauthorization, we get to re-support the military every two years, as per the Constitutional limit.

When it comes to deployment, the army is not supposed to be deployed within US borders and take action against citizens (Posse Comitatus act, not part of the Constitution) although Eisenhower used an exception during school desegregation. I agree with the act, which is why I would call this non-military service 'training', not 'deployment'.






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Monday, May 14, 2018 11:05 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

You're proposing drastically under cutting the value of this work by having it all done on taxpayer dime. This essentially amounts to taxpayer funded "scabs" doing the work for 1/5th of the actual value of the work. Regardless of how you see things, this is a valid argument and would have impact beyond what you're projecting.
Quote:

Who cares if they're not currently being performed? What happens when that work is done? The answer is they will start doing jobs that are already currently being performed by people who make a living at it. They would eventually take over those sectors of jobs as well because A) they'd be cheaper than anyone else and B) they're the gummint.
I can't imagine what are essentially government workers being used for private-sector work while they're still government workers. Yanno, maybe it happens in some movie version of a corrupt dictatorship, where the generalissimo has the troops build his gold mansion with private landing strip on the pristine mountain, instead of hiring contractors ... but we're not that. At least not yet.
Quote:

Army doesn't get as many people as they used to.
To some extent that's due to the aging of the population as a whole. But many people don't volunteer for the simple reason that 1) they saw people get redeployed over and over in Afghanistan and Iraq, in what I call a 'use them until they break, then throw them away' policy; and 2) nobody with any sense wants to risk their life. https://www.politico.eu/article/the-militarys-real-problem-fewer-ameri
cans-are-joining
/

And that topic leads in to this:
Quote:

Nobody is going to sign up for this as their only military duty.
If you remove combat duty from the equation, death and permanent disability DISincentives disappear.
Quote:

I can't imagine a bunch of people signing up for a non-combat army that stays at home and fixes bridges and in exchange for free room and board and a few bucks over minimum wage they're going to hand 24/7 control over their lives to the Government.
Yeah, why would a young person who can't get a job want to 1) get a job, 2) be provided for, 3) move out of the house and hood, 4) not risk life and limb, and 5) LEARN A VALUABLE TRADE OR SKILL for when they leave?

You seem to think that people would be more eager to join the military if only they just could have the fantabulous opportunity of dying or being disabled BEFORE they get their training, instead of skipping the risk and going straight to the training.

I'm not saying it would be for everybody. But the combined services are ~1.3M strong. Even under today's circumstances, it attracts a significant number of people. I can imagine it would continue to attract at least as many, if not more.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Saturday, May 19, 2018 7:29 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Kiki is talking about people handing over at least 4 years of their life under 24/7 direct management from the Military, housing non-combat duty soldiers on American soil on the taxpayer dime. Huge difference.
Which we are ALREADY doing. It's generically called the military.

All I'm proposing is that we change the military's tasks and locale - from killing overseas, to providing societal value here.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Saturday, May 19, 2018 10:18 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You object to the military proper being controlled by the military chain of command? You object to the military being paid their existing pay? You object to the military being housed and fed from the military budget? You object to them being quartered in the US?

Those are absurd points. All those circumstances are the current reality. And of the roughly 1.3 million personnel, only 0.2 million are overseas. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/22/u-s-active-duty-milita
ry-presence-overseas-is-at-its-smallest-in-decades
/

So, where are the other 1.1 million? They're living on and off base, in the US. Here's a listing of US military bases in the US, just FYI:

United States
Alabama
Fort Rucker
Maxwell-Gunter
Redstone Arsenal
Alaska
Eielson
Elmendorf
Fort Richardson
Fort Wainwright
Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson
Arizona
Davis-Monthan Air Force Base
Fort Huachuca
Luke Air Force Base
Marine Corps Air Station Yuma
Yuma Proving Ground
Arkansas
Little Rock
California
China Lake Naval Air Weapons Station
Coast Guard Training Center Petaluma
Fort Irwin
Los Angeles Air Force Base
March Air Reserve Base
Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center - Twentynine Palms
Marine Corps Air Station Miramar
Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton
Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego
Naval Air Station Lemoore
Naval Air Station North Island
Naval Amphibious Base Coronado
Naval Base Coronado
Naval Base Point Loma
Naval Base San Diego
Naval Base Ventura County
Naval Postgraduate School
Presidio of Monterey
San Diego Military Bases
Travis Air Force Base
US Coast Guard Station San Diego
Vandenberg Air Force Base
Colorado
Buckley Air Force Base
Colorado Springs Military Bases
Fort Carson
Peterson Air Force Base
Schriever Air Force Base
United States Air Force Academy
Connecticut
Naval Submarine Base New London
Delaware
Dover Air Force Base
District of Columbia
Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling
Naval District Washington
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Florida
Eglin Air Force Base
Hurlburt Field
MacDill Air Force Base
Naval Air Station Key West
Naval Air Station Pensacola
Naval Air Station Whiting Field
Naval Station Mayport
Naval Support Activity Panama City
Pensacola Florida Military Bases
Tyndall Air Force Base
United States Southern Command
Georgia
Fort Benning
Fort Gordon
Fort Stewart
Hunter Army Airfield
Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay
Robins Air Force Base
Hawaii
Coast Guard Sector Honolulu
Hickam Air Force Base
Joint Base Pearl Harbor - Hickam
Marine Corps Base Hawaii
Naval Station Pearl Harbor
Oahu Hawaii Military Bases
Schofield Barracks/Fort Shafter
Tripler Army Medical Center
Idaho
Mountain Home Air Force Base
Illinois
Naval Station Great Lakes
Scott AFB Guide
Indiana
Grissom Air Reserve Base
Kansas
Fort Leavenworth
Fort Riley
McConnell Air Force Base
Kentucky
Fort Campbell
Fort Knox
Louisiana
Barksdale Air Force Base
Fort Polk
Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base New Orleans
Maryland
Aberdeen Proving Ground
Andrews Air Force Base
Coast Guard Sector Baltimore
Fort Detrick
Fort George G. Meade
Joint Base Andrews
National Naval Medical Center
Naval Air Station Patuxent River
Naval Support Activity Bethesda
Navy Fort Meade
US Naval Academy
Massachusetts
Fort Devens
Hanscom Air Force Base
Mississippi
Columbus Air Force Base
Keesler Air Force Base
Naval Air Station Meridian
Naval Construction Battalion Center Gulfport
Missouri
Fort Leonard Wood
Whiteman Air Force Base
Montana
Malmstrom Air Force Base
Nebraska
Offutt Air Force Base
Nevada
Creech Air Force Base
Naval Air Station Fallon
Nellis Air Force Base
New Jersey
Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst
New Mexico
Cannon Air Force Base
Holloman Air Force Base
Kirtland Air Force Base
New York
Fort Drum
Fort Hamilton
Naval Support Activity Saratoga Springs
United States Military Academy, West Point
North Carolina
Fayetteville North Carolina Military Bases
Fort Bragg
Jacksonville North Carolina Military Bases
Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point
Marine Corps Air Station New River
Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune
Naval Air Station Jacksonville
Pope Field
North Dakota
Grand Forks Air Force Base
Ohio
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
Oklahoma
Altus Air Force Base
Fort Sill
Tinker Air Force Base
Vance Air Force Base
Pennsylvania
Carlisle Barracks
Puerto Rico
Fort Buchanan
Rhode Island
Naval Station Newport
South Carolina
Beaufort South Carolina Military Bases
Charleston Air Force Base
Fort Jackson
Joint Base Charleston
Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort
Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island
Naval Hospital Beaufort
Naval Weapons Station Charleston
Shaw Air Force Base
South Dakota
Ellsworth Air Force Base
Tennessee
Naval Support Activity Mid-South
Texas
Camp Bullis
Dyess Air Force Base
Fort Bliss
Fort Hood
Fort Sam Houston
Goodfellow Air Force Base
Joint Base Myer - Henderson Hall
Joint Base San Antonio
Lackland Air Force Base
Laughlin Air Force Base
Naval Air Station Corpus Christi
Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth
Randolph Air Force Base
Red River Army Depot
Sheppard Air Force Base
Utah
Dugway Proving Ground
Hill Air Force Base
Virginia
Coast Guard Sector Hampton Roads
Fort Belvoir
Fort Eustis
Fort Lee
Fort Myer
Fort Story
Hampton Roads Military Bases
Henderson Hall
Joint Base Langley-Eustis
Joint Expeditionary Base Little Creek - Fort Story
Langley Air Force Base
Marine Corps Base Quantico
Naval Air Station Oceana
Naval Air Station Oceana Dam Neck Annex
Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek
Naval Station Norfolk
Washington
Beale Air Force Base
Coast Guard Sector Puget Sound
Fairchild Air Force Base
Fort Lewis
Joint Base Lewis-McChord
McChord Field
Naval Air Station Whidbey Island
Naval Base Kitsap
Naval Base Kitsap - Bangor
Naval Base Kitsap - Bremerton
Naval Hospital Bremerton
Naval Station Everett
Wisconsin
Fort McCoy
Wyoming
F. E. Warren Air Force Base

So, in order to assuage your qualms, what are you suggesting - we disband the military? We don't pay them? We quarter them somewhere not on US soil? Do you think Canada would be accommodating?



I also specified they do NOT patrol the US under my plan - the exact same way they don't patrol the US now. And they do NOT perform private, for-profit work - the exact same way they don't perform private, for-profit work now.



I suggest you re-frame your objections, because you're making no sense at all.







SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sunday, May 20, 2018 2:03 AM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm making this particular suggestion because nether party seems to object to the size of the military we have, the number of people in it, or the amount of money that is spent. And a civilian corps would be too much like socialism.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sunday, May 20, 2018 1:37 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"It requires people to be put under the military code of justice just for "three hots and a cot" and training"

Which they are ALREADY doing. I'm not changing that. Today's all volunteer army requires people who make a choice to join. Some join for the college and post-college benefits, some want to make it a career, some just need a job. But they are certainly wiling to be deployed in an active war zone, and put their lives, health, and futures on the line, to get the economic benefits they seek in the military.

And note: I'm not saying we EXPAND the military.

What part of 'everything else stays the same' do people not get?




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sunday, May 20, 2018 1:55 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I've come to the realization (above) by watching Homicide Hunter, which is a real crime TV show. But because it's in Colorado Springs - which has a large collection of military bases and offices in and nearby (within 10 miles) - I've learned a lot about the scope and function of the US military in the economy. Your concern is that it will get that bad. Watching this show I can say it IS that bad. The military is HUGE. Collected all together, it would be a substantial city on a map. We just don't see it because we don't live next to military bases.

Here's a list (some bases have more than 1 physical location):

Peterson Air Force Base
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 556-7321

Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 474-1110

Fort Carson
Fort Carson, CO
(719) 526-5811

Ft. Carson
Colorado Springs, CO

US Army Department
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 526-3410

US Army Department
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 526-5958

JBTEC
Colorado Springs, CO

Schriever Air Force Base
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 567-1110

US Army Space Command
Colorado Springs, CO

US Defense Contract Audit
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 596-0960

US Defense Contract Audit
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 596-0960

21st Force Support Squadron
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 556-4023

Peterson AFB West Gate Visitors Center
Colorado Springs, CO

Off Post Homes
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 591-7653

United States Air Force Academy
U.S. Air Force Academy, CO
(719) 333-2025

National Guard
Colorado Springs, CO
(719) 596-7184

50th Space Wing
Schriever AFB, CO
(719) 567-5040








SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Monday, May 21, 2018 11:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sunday, May 20, 2018 9:21 PM
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"So your solution to the problem is to expand the huge bad"

NOT expand it !!!


I've said that many times already.

What part of EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME do you not understand?

The military doesn't get larger. They house, feed and pay them the EXACT same way they do now. The military chain of command is the same. There are only two differences.

1 the military doesn't get deployed overseas
2 instead of doing combat duty they get trained to work on, then work on, public, not-for-profit projects.

I've been though this over a half a dozen times with you.


You are incredibly dense.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:23 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"What your proposing would expand it."

Well, that's one way to try and win an argument. Lie about what I said, and then tell me I'm wrong.


Jack, you have such a powerful reaction, you can't stop blubbering and hyperventilating long enough to comprehend what I posted. Unless you have something that factually addresses my proposal, I'm just going to write off your posts. Unless I take the time to point out that you're lying. Again. And then maybe make fun of you.

SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

Perhaps if you explain what 6ix has incorrect, the exchange could progress.



She keeps saying that she's not proposing to expand the military, but that's exactly what she is doing with her suggestion.

I can't help it if she thinks I'm a liar for saying so. Sigs doesn't agree with Kiki here either.

What's your take, JSF?

It would be interesting to hear your side since unlike us, I don't believe you have any problems with the current size of our military.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:53 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


In a pattern that’s played out over and over since the tax cuts passed — companies profit, shareholders reap the benefits, and workers get left out. Corporate stock buybacks hit a record $178 billion in the first three months of 2018; average hourly earnings for American workers are up 67 cents over the past year. Harley-Davidson is an American symbol, and President Trump has trotted it out as an example of business success. But as it’s getting its tax cut, it’s outsourcing jobs and paying shareholders.

Harley-Davidson took its tax cut, closed a factory, and rewarded shareholders.
The motorcycle maker in January told 800 Kansas City workers it would close a plant there. Days later, it announced a nearly $700 million stock buyback plan.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax
-buyback-kansas-city-factory


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:58 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
In a pattern that’s played out over and over since the tax cuts passed — companies profit, shareholders reap the benefits, and workers get left out. Corporate stock buybacks hit a record $178 billion in the first three months of 2018; average hourly earnings for American workers are up 67 cents over the past year. Harley-Davidson is an American symbol, and President Trump has trotted it out as an example of business success. But as it’s getting its tax cut, it’s outsourcing jobs and paying shareholders.

Harley-Davidson took its tax cut, closed a factory, and rewarded shareholders.
The motorcycle maker in January told 800 Kansas City workers it would close a plant there. Days later, it announced a nearly $700 million stock buyback plan.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax
-buyback-kansas-city-factory


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly



Yeah. We've been doing this for 20 years now.

I have to admit that I thought I voted against it in 2016.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 12:33 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
In a pattern that’s played out over and over since the tax cuts passed — companies profit, shareholders reap the benefits, and workers get left out. Corporate stock buybacks hit a record $178 billion in the first three months of 2018; average hourly earnings for American workers are up 67 cents over the past year. Harley-Davidson is an American symbol, and President Trump has trotted it out as an example of business success. But as it’s getting its tax cut, it’s outsourcing jobs and paying shareholders.

Harley-Davidson took its tax cut, closed a factory, and rewarded shareholders.
The motorcycle maker in January told 800 Kansas City workers it would close a plant there. Days later, it announced a nearly $700 million stock buyback plan.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax
-buyback-kansas-city-factory


Yeah. We've been doing this for 20 years now.

I have to admit that I thought I voted against it in 2016.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

You voted against the worst option in 2016. Not your fault the 2nd worst was hand-picked by the worst option.
As usual, I voted for the best option on the ballot.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:31 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

You voted against the worst option in 2016. Not your fault the 2nd worst was hand-picked by the worst option.
As usual, I voted for the best option on the ballot.

Bank profits hit a new all-time record as Congress is poised to roll back post-crisis regulations.

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation announced Tuesday that America’s banking sector hit a new record high of $56 billion in net income in the first quarter of 2018.

Meanwhile, the US House of Representatives is set this afternoon to pass a bill killing financial regulations to help out a financial services sector that they see as ailing under the status quo.

Yes, the same sector that just posted record profits. Now, of course, if you talk to proponents of the regulatory rollback, they’ll tell you they have no intention of helping out the Wall Street giants whom everyone hates. But with less regulation coming down the pike, there’s every reason to believe that the future will only be brighter for America’s banks.

www.vox.com/2018/5/22/17380490/fdic-bank-profits-dodd-frank

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:56 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"What your proposing would expand it."

Well, that's one way to try and win an argument. Lie about what I said, and then tell me I'm wrong.


Jack, you have such a powerful reaction, you can't stop blubbering and hyperventilating long enough to comprehend what I posted. Unless you have something that factually addresses my proposal, I'm just going to write off your posts. Unless I take the time to point out that you're lying. Again. And then maybe make fun of you.

SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

Perhaps if you explain what 6ix has incorrect, the exchange could progress.

She keeps saying that she's not proposing to expand the military, but that's exactly what she is doing with her suggestion.

I can't help it if she thinks I'm a liar for saying so. Sigs doesn't agree with Kiki here either.

What's your take, JSF?

It would be interesting to hear your side since unlike us, I don't believe you have any problems with the current size of our military.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I don't think I have a take yet. I've read what she has posted, and also just reposted, and either I'm not finding what she is trying to say or she has not explained it adequately.

What I've been able to translate might best be expressed as analogy:
Let us start with a number system, used to calculate and interpolate the real world. Let us replace some random numbers of this system with some random letters. Then if some of the random letters seem to sound a certain way, we delete them. And if the remaining letters or numbers look a certain way, we repeat them in the sequence.
Now we have a much better and simpler system, right? Calculations with this new system will be much easier, right? And more accurate.
If kiki's concept is somehow different from this example, I have not found a grasp to it. Attempted grasps have gripped nothing but slime to date.



Apparently she is basing her theory upon some TV Show set in Colorado. Our Military Strategy has a preference of not fighting War on our own soil - which would lead to certain loss. Tell me, which Foreign Aggitators or Aggressors, or Oceans, border Colorado?

I forget who first stated this: if you desire to understand the breadth and depth of flora and fauna by devoting decades to the study of a gnat's bunghole, you might get a warped view.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 2:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

She keeps saying that she's not proposing to expand the military, but that's exactly what she is doing with her suggestion.
I think what KIKI is suggesting is that the scope of duties would change for recruits, so instead of performing military service, the volunteers would be performing civilian/ public service duties instead. To make this a simper concept, let's propose that in the last year of one's contract with the military, instead of being deployed abroad or continuing with military training/ service, that the recruits are turned towards things like bridge building, roadway construction, dam removal, or energy-efficiency retrofitting, learning skills like using bulldozers and scrapers or electrical wiring. It could be proposed as a transition program back to civilian life. Alternately, we can point to similar programs ALREADY in the military, such as getting a degree in dentistry in return for 8 years of military service. My niece and her husband got their professional educations "the army way".

Quote:

I can't help it if she thinks I'm a liar for saying so. Sigs doesn't agree with Kiki here either.
I don't agree, but not because it necessarily represents an numeric expansion (i.e. numbers of military volunteers increasing) but because it expands the scope of "military code of justice" to non-military situations even further. If there's any reason at all for putting recruits under "martial law" it's because they will be forced into a wartime situation, where obedience is required. But there's no reason to put people under "martial law" because they're learning how to make their beds, brush their teeth, and run a bulldozer. I realize that the reason why KIKI is suggesting this "soft transition" from a wartime economy is because KIKI thinks it's more palatable, and therefore more possible, than conjuring up another vast "public works" program, but IMHO a "soft transition" is no more likely than a complete about-face.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:09 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

She keeps saying that she's not proposing to expand the military, but that's exactly what she is doing with her suggestion.
I think what KIKI is suggesting is that the scope of duties would change for recruits, so instead of performing military service, the volunteers would be performing civilian/ public service duties instead. To make this a simper concept, let's propose that in the last year of one's contract with the military, instead of being deployed abroad or continuing with military training/ service, that the recruits are turned towards things like bridge building, roadway construction, dam removal, or energy-efficiency retrofitting, learning skills like using bulldozers and scrapers or electrical wiring. It could be proposed as a transition program back to civilian life. Alternately, we can point to similar programs ALREADY in the military, such as getting a degree in dentistry in return for 8 years of military service. My niece and her husband got their professional educations "the army way".



Yes. At the absolute best, it's redundancy. And that's only if it were done on a temporary basis as a program to transition existing military service members out of an active duty role.

Quote:

I can't help it if she thinks I'm a liar for saying so. Sigs doesn't agree with Kiki here either.


Quote:

I don't agree, but not because it necessarily represents an numeric expansion (i.e. numbers of military volunteers increasing) but because it expands the scope of "military code of justice" to non-military situations even further. If there's any reason at all for putting recruits under "martial law" it's because they will be forced into a wartime situation, where obedience is required. But there's no reason to put people under "martial law" because they're learning how to make their beds, brush their teeth, and run a bulldozer. I realize that the reason why KIKI is suggesting this "soft transition" from a wartime economy is because KIKI thinks it's more palatable, and therefore more possible, than conjuring up another vast "public works" program, but IMHO a "soft transition" is no more likely than a complete about-face.




That's kind of my point. If the end goal here is not actually lowering the existing numbers in the military and people are now volunteering for work at home for training, I fear that the numbers would rise because of how desperate people are going to become for any sort of meaningful jobs as more get shipped overseas or replaced with automation.

I don't believe the Government would put any limits to how many people could join this program since the labor would be extremely cheap and they'd be signing over their lives on contract to the Government until their time was up.

Who's to say that this wouldn't grow? Everybody here knows how corrupt our Government and businesses are. These "employees" would have no real say about the direction their lives go while enlisted, and by the time they could leave there might not be a whole lot of good paying jobs utilizing the skills they learned if there are now twice as many new recruits in there as well as a waiting list, so they're probably much more likely to re-enlist for a small bonus or bump in pay for the next 4 years of their lives. This circle only stands to get more vicious as the ranks become professional caliber after re-enlisting 1 or 2 times because it's better than the alternatives.

I'm looking 20 years down the road and seeing this ending very badly for everybody.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 4:27 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"What your proposing would expand it."

Well, that's one way to try and win an argument. Lie about what I said, and then tell me I'm wrong.


Jack, you have such a powerful reaction, you can't stop blubbering and hyperventilating long enough to comprehend what I posted. Unless you have something that factually addresses my proposal, I'm just going to write off your posts. Unless I take the time to point out that you're lying. Again. And then maybe make fun of you.

SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

Perhaps if you explain what 6ix has incorrect, the exchange could progress.

She keeps saying that she's not proposing to expand the military, but that's exactly what she is doing with her suggestion.

I can't help it if she thinks I'm a liar for saying so. Sigs doesn't agree with Kiki here either.

What's your take, JSF?

It would be interesting to hear your side since unlike us, I don't believe you have any problems with the current size of our military.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I don't think I have a take yet. I've read what she has posted, and also just reposted, and either I'm not finding what she is trying to say or she has not explained it adequately.

What I've been able to translate might best be expressed as analogy:
Let us start with a number system, used to calculate and interpolate the real world. Let us replace some random numbers of this system with some random letters. Then if some of the random letters seem to sound a certain way, we delete them. And if the remaining letters or numbers look a certain way, we repeat them in the sequence.
Now we have a much better and simpler system, right? Calculations with this new system will be much easier, right? And more accurate.
If kiki's concept is somehow different from this example, I have not found a grasp to it. Attempted grasps have gripped nothing but slime to date.



Apparently she is basing her theory upon some TV Show set in Colorado. Our Military Strategy has a preference of not fighting War on our own soil - which would lead to certain loss. Tell me, which Foreign Aggitators or Aggressors, or Oceans, border Colorado?

I forget who first stated this: if you desire to understand the breadth and depth of flora and fauna by devoting decades to the study of a gnat's bunghole, you might get a warped view.

I don't know if 6ix will gain a better handle on what her idea. But if so, feel free to share.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 8:26 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

I'm looking 20 years down the road and seeing this ending very badly for everybody.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

The Democrats have been writing and legislating about a "job guarantee" policy since the recovery act was passed on May 26, 1933. The economics of full employment are not rocket science. It’s the politics that are stupid. The politicians aren't willing to understand what John Maynard Keynes wrote on how to make it happen. Call it economic force -- the profitable and positive side. And American politicians really, really aren't willing to use the legislative force of regulations, inspections and fines -- the negative and punitive side of a "job guarantee" policy. The language of force is the only language that a lot of employers ever understand.

https://angrybearblog.com/2018/05/jobs-jobs-jobs-guaranteed.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 8:30 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Trump’s tough talk on China trade is as empty as his tough talk on, say drug prices. Faced with the prospect of actually going toe to toe with powerful interests – as opposed to doing harm to immigrants or poor people who need health care, etc. – Trump keeps backing down, ignominiously.

But . . .

What happened to all that bluster about trade wars being “good, and easy to win”?

I can think of four reasons Trump ran away:

1. Someone managed to explain the economics to him, and he realized that the trade war wasn’t a good idea

2. He just lost his nerve, as he consistently does when confronting people who aren’t powerless

3. He was bribed, with China offering sweet deals to his personal business interests

4. The Chinese have some kind of tape

It tells you a lot that (1) is highly implausible. China would be hurt worse than the U.S. in an all-out trade war. But the pain wouldn’t be at all one-sided. And it’s possible, I guess, that Trump dimly recognized that reality, or at least noticed that his beloved stock market really doesn’t like trade war talk.

I’m still betting that it’s a bribe and/or some kind of tape.

www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/opinion/why-a-trade-war-with-china-isnt-eas
y-to-win-slightly-wonkish.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 9:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Of course it's a tape. That sneaky Billy Bush. Always luring Trump on buses and getting him to say the wildest things about secret trade deals with Chinese, secret plans to overthrow Democracy with Putin and grabbin pussy. What a kidder.

I remember this one time I was riding the bus with Billy Bush and he got me to to say on tape that being electrocuted through my nips is a huge turn on for me. And I ain't even tried that before. Still on my bucket list though, cause I know it would be. Maybe next time I'm sitting on Billy's lap on the bus? Man we were high.

Starlord for President in 2020. He didn't mean it ya'all.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 11:52 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Of course it's a tape. That sneaky Billy Bush. Always luring Trump on buses and getting him to say the wildest things about secret trade deals with Chinese, secret plans to overthrow Democracy with Putin and grabbin pussy. What a kidder.

I remember this one time I was riding the bus with Billy Bush and he got me to to say on tape that being electrocuted through my nips is a huge turn on for me. And I ain't even tried that before. Still on my bucket list though, cause I know it would be. Maybe next time I'm sitting on Billy's lap on the bus? Man we were high.

Starlord for President in 2020. He didn't mean it ya'all.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

But that was only that one time!

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 12:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Of course it's a tape. That sneaky Billy Bush. Always luring Trump on buses and getting him to say the wildest things about secret trade deals with Chinese, secret plans to overthrow Democracy with Putin and grabbin pussy. What a kidder.

I remember this one time I was riding the bus with Billy Bush and he got me to to say on tape that being electrocuted through my nips is a huge turn on for me. And I ain't even tried that before. Still on my bucket list though, cause I know it would be. Maybe next time I'm sitting on Billy's lap on the bus? Man we were high.

Starlord for President in 2020. He didn't mean it ya'all.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

This is how you comment about Trump being either incompetent or crooked when he is negotiating trade deals with China? Trump took a half billion dollar bribe from China.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/news/companies/mnuchin-zte/index.html
In a vote of 23 to 2, the Senate Banking Committee overwhelmingly approved an amendment that would block Trump from reducing penalties on Chinese company ZTE without first providing Congress proof the company is following US laws.

Trump Indonesia project gets Chinese government partner
www.cnbc.com/2018/05/16/the-associated-press-trump-indonesia-project-g
ets-chinese-government-partner.html

A Chinese government-owned company has signed on to build a theme park in a vast development in Indonesia that also features a Trump hotel and condos, a deal that stands to benefit President Donald Trump's company just as top Chinese envoys head to Washington for trade talks.



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 1:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ABOUT BANKS

Quote:

Bank profits hit a new all-time record as Congress is poised to roll back post-crisis regulations. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation announced Tuesday that America’s banking sector hit a new record high of $56 billion in net income in the first quarter of 2018. Meanwhile, the US House of Representatives is set this afternoon to pass a bill killing financial regulations to help out a financial services sector that they see as ailing under the status quo.

Yes, the same sector that just posted record profits. Now, of course, if you talk to proponents of the regulatory rollback, they’ll tell you they have no intention of helping out the Wall Street giants whom everyone hates. But with less regulation coming down the pike, there’s every reason to believe that the future will only be brighter for America’s banks.

www.vox.com/2018/5/22/17380490/fdic-bank-profits-dodd-frank



THIS IS REUTER'S INTERPRETATION

Quote:

Congress’s tweak to the 2010 Dodd-Frank financial rules mostly eases restrictions on small and “community” banks, allowing them to make mortgages more easily and loosening some troublesome red tape. Lenders with assets between $50 billion and $250 billion will no longer automatically face tough oversight from the Federal Reserve, but some still may anyway; bonds issued by local authorities will be treated a little more favorably.
This is consistent with what I've been hearing over the past year or so: Complying with Dodd-Frank's 2,300 pages of regulations is a nightmare for small and community banks which don't have access to offices-full of lawyers and accountants.

Quote:

It’s more milestone than real change, and less than many Republicans in the House of Representatives wanted. For mega-banks like Citi, JPMorgan or Wells Fargo, the revisions offer almost nothing – although with industry profit hitting a record $56 billion in the first quarter, according to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp, they’re not in a position to complain.

What comes next could be more interesting to them, if it involves changes to the Volcker Rule – the restriction on deposit-takers trading for their own gain rather than that of clients. Five regulators, including the Fed, want to change the current presumption that all short-term trades are considered speculative unless there’s a paper trail to show otherwise. JPMorgan boss Jamie Dimon once complained traders would need a lawyer and a psychiatrist sitting next to them to gauge the intent behind any given transaction.

Banks certainly made money from their prop trading desks – but even so, the idea that they would rush to reopen them should the rules change seems far-fetched. Some of that trading still happens, under the guise of hedging, but most big banks are more interested in fee-generating businesses like securities underwriting and consumer lending. Much speculative activity - and the star traders driving it - have migrated to hedge funds. Automation means many trades don’t even go near a human any more.

The second is more significant, and once again represents the commingling of depositors' funds with speculative investment.

It pisses me off. Congressional Republicans COULD HAVE done this the easy way: Offer banks the option of choosing to either abide by Dodd-Frank, or abide by Glass-Steagall. But what do you expect from politicians who're living in the pockets of big business?

HOW THE SENATE VOTED
Quote:

The measure crafted by Idaho Sen. Mike Crapo, the top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, passed 67 to 31, marking a rare occurrence of old-fashioned legislating on a bipartisan bill that nevertheless sharply divided Democrats.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/politics/banking-bill-vote-mike-crapo/i
ndex.html
So 17 Democrats voted for the bill.

HOW THE HOUSE VOTED
Republican 225(Y) 1(N) 8(NV)
Democratic 33(Y) 158(N) 2(NV)
You can see how YOUR Representative voted here:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2018/roll216.xml




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 2:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ZTE PHONE

As usual, you're presuming to know what's going on with ZTE phone. My first thought was that this had more to do with China's help with getting N Korea back on track than anything else, but in reality none one of us know for sure.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 3:05 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
ZTE PHONE

As usual, you're presuming to know what's going on with ZTE phone. My first thought was that this had more to do with China's help with getting N Korea back on track than anything else, but in reality none one of us know for sure.

And the reason why we do not know for sure is that Trump is not forthcoming with complete information. Even if he was completely forthcoming, how would we know if he was truthful? He is impossible to pin down to one story. He has a reputation of twisting the truth that nobody has done since Nixon. Philip Roth, who died yesterday, parodied Nixon answering questions. Roth's Nixon is how the real Trump talks. Trump must have read the book. See Philip Roth, Our Gang, 1971.

CITIZEN: I wonder if I may ask you a question having to do with Lieutenant Calley and his conviction for killing twenty-two Vietnamese civilians at My Lai.

TRICKY: Certainly. I suppose you are bringing that up as another example of my refusal to do the popular thing.

CITIZEN: How’s that, sir?

TRICKY: Well, in the wake of the public outcry against that conviction, the popular thing—the most popular thing by far—would have been for me, as Commander-in-Chief, to have convicted the twenty-two unarmed civilians of conspiracy to murder Lieutenant Calley. But if you read your papers, you’ll see I refused to do that, and chose only to review the question of his guilt, and not theirs. As I said, I’d rather be a one-term President. And may I make one thing more perfectly clear, while we’re on the subject of Vietnam? I am not going to interfere in the internal affairs of another country. If President Thieu has sufficient evidence and wishes to try those twenty-two My Lai villagers posthumously, according to some Vietnamese law having to do with ancestor worship, that is his business. But I assure you, I in no way intend to interfere with the workings of the Vietnamese system of justice. I think President Thieu, and the duly elected Saigon officials, can “hack” it alone in the law and order department.

CITIZEN: Sir, the question that’s been troubling me is this. Inasmuch as I share your belief in the sanctity of human life—

TRICKY: Good for you. I’ll bet you’re quite a football fan, too.

Etc. much more Trumpish stream of consciousness bullshit from Roth's parody Nixon, who is constantly complementing himself for his high standards of excellence as does real Trump.

Roth on Trump, in January of this year: “a massive fraud, the evil sum of his deficiencies, devoid of everything but the hollow ideology of a megalomaniac.”
www.nytimes.com/2018/01/16/books/review/philip-roth-interview.html

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 3:06 PM

JJ


It's as simple as you've pointed out SECOND. Trumps corrupt, and it's both funny and sad to see his supporters realize he cares nothing about making America great, or them. Therefore they keep making excuses for him because they don't want to lose face by admitting it. To late for that, losing face I mean. They couldn't look any dumber or corrupt themselves.

T


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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 4:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JJ:
It's as simple as you've pointed out SECOND. Trumps corrupt, and it's both funny and sad to see his supporters realize he cares nothing about making America great, or them. Therefore they keep making excuses for him because they don't want to lose face by admitting it. To late for that, losing face I mean. They couldn't look any dumber or corrupt themselves.

T




Hey. You know what's corrupt? Probably every single word of those big money speeches that Hillary gave to the banks before the election that she somehow managed to keep secret from the American people while 33,000 emails were leaked.

None of us know exactly what was in them, but I'm willing to wager everything I own that she wasn't being paid millions of dollars by the banking elite to tell them all about how she was going to shut down their American economy ruining practices and how she was standing up against Wall Street for all of us living on Main Street.

But sure, you Lefties just keep banging that Democratic Drum until your arms fall off. Just make sure that you've got the money to pay the huge deductible increase that you've got to pay now since Obamacare went into effect when you get some outrageously overpaid doctor to glue them back on for you.

Maybe you'll get really lucky and they'll glue them on the wrong shoulders and you can sue the shit out of them and all of our premiums will rise accordingly to cover your new life on easy street since everybody talks about Tort Reform, yet nobody on either side ever does anything about Tort Reform.

I'm sure they'll get to Tort Reform right after we do something about Campaign Finance reform.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, May 23, 2018 4:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And the reason why we do not know for sure is that Trump is not forthcoming with complete information.


Oh, like Obama was? I don't seem to recall any speeches where he told us that he was going to authorize universal surveillance, or run a drone program in Pakistan and Yemen, or maintain a "kill list" including American citizens, or give the banks 17 trillion to make them whole, or run CIA destabilization programs in Ukraine, Syria, Yemen and Sudan, or do the 100-and-1 OTHER nefarious things that HE did as President. Any of those speeches in YOUR recollection?
No?
You whine, bitch, and moan endlessly about Trump. I'd take it a lot more seriously if you didn't have such a big fucking double standard/ hole in your head.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 12:09 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yes. At the absolute best, it's redundancy.

Redundancy to what? To the non-existent national training and jobs programs? To the non-existent public works projects?
Quote:

And that's only if it were done on a temporary basis as a program to transition existing military service members out of an active duty role.
Why? just because you say so doesn't make it so.
Quote:

I don't agree, but not because it necessarily represents an numeric expansion (i.e. numbers of military volunteers increasing) but because it expands the scope of "military code of justice" to non-military situations even further. If there's any reason at all for putting recruits under "martial law" it's because they will be forced into a wartime situation, where obedience is required. But there's no reason to put people under "martial law" because they're learning how to make their beds, brush their teeth, and run a bulldozer.
This will STILL be the military. People will go for basic training. They will be called up for combat duty if they need to defend the country.
Quote:

That's kind of my point. If the end goal here is not actually lowering the existing numbers in the military
It's not. And I never said it was. It's to get us more value at home for government money spent on the military that would otherwise be wasted.
Quote:

I fear that the numbers would rise because of how desperate people are going to become for any sort of meaningful jobs as more get shipped overseas or replaced with automation. ... I don't believe the Government would put any limits to how many people could join this program since the labor would be extremely cheap ... Who's to say that this wouldn't grow?
Are you saying the government would somehow be 'forced' to admit the flood of applicants?

And. Wait. Weren't you arguing this was such a bad deal no one would go for it?

Do you think you can keep your arguments straight?
Quote:

... and they'd be signing over their lives on contract to the Government until their time was up. These "employees" would have no real say about the direction their lives go while enlisted ...
You mean, JUST EXACTLY LIKE HOW THINGS ARE NOW?
Quote:

Everybody here knows how corrupt our Government and businesses are.
Do you have a point?
Quote:

and by the time they could leave there might not be a whole lot of good paying jobs utilizing the skills they learned
And that's different from now ... how exactly?
Quote:

if there are now twice as many new recruits in there as well as a waiting list, so they're probably much more likely to re-enlist for a small bonus or bump in pay for the next 4 years of their lives. This circle only stands to get more vicious as the ranks become professional caliber after re-enlisting 1 or 2 times because it's better than the alternatives.
And how's THAT different from now?

You just go round and round, and go nowhere.




SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 4:39 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


This theoretical conversation is boring me now. It's never going to happen anyhow, and getting into these stupid little arguments with you no longer makes my dick hard.

Sorry Kiki. It's not you, it's me.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 6:26 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You whine, bitch, and moan endlessly about Trump. I'd take it a lot more seriously if you didn't have such a big fucking double standard/ hole in your head.



I'd take you a little more seriously if you realized that Obama is no longer president. You and people of you ilk, constantly defend Trump (omg) by blaming someone who's out of work and has zero effect on your life. "If only you'd criticized John Tyler like this..." Big fucking transparent hole in your head.

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 6:38 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
This will STILL be the military. People will go for basic training. They will be called up for combat duty if they need to defend the country.



I believe The Military thinks being in the military is already a full time job. I doubt they would go for this.

And would enlisted types think they were being used?

"I have 2 f*cking jobs now but I'm only getting paid for one? That's bull."
"Damn straight. Now we have to clean up their shit overseas and at home."
"Fuckin' A. Why can't those civilians sitting on their couches whining about not getting paid enough go out and do this work until something else comes along? Screw defending them and doing their house work."

Sadly, you will never see military funding EVER reduced under Colonel Trump. Little hands is never going to go for not having the most missiles. He might go for a citizen militia though... put them to work cleaning up the parks and public lands, and patrolling neighborhoods after dark. Occasionally, if any large precincts have, say "voting day issues," they could lend a hand to sort out any trouble... yanno, make us safer again.

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'd take you a little more seriously if you ...
And I'd take YOU a little more seriously if you ... well, you'd have to do A LOT to be thought of as something other than a troll! Let's look at the rest of your post's deficiencies, shall we?

Quote:

... realized that Obama is no longer president.
Dood, OF COURSE Obama is no longer President! But SECOND never complained about Obama DOING THE EXACT SAME THING EVEN WHEN OBAMA WAS PRESIDENT. So what does that say about SECOND's moral code? That it changes where there is a "D" or an "R" after someone's name? That's it's just a little (OK, a lot) "flexible"?

And what does that say about YOU, that you'd think your post is anything other than the blithering of an idiot?

Quote:

You and people of you ilk, constantly defend Trump (omg) by blaming someone who's out of work and has zero effect on your life. "If only you'd criticized John Tyler like this..." Big fucking transparent hole in your head.
I'm not defending Trump, you nitwit. I'm simply saying that SECOND's moral code is ... ah ... "situational"? Biased? Hypocritical?

SECOND is complaining about Trump being "not forthcoming". Well, if you apply THAT standard to every President back to ... Washington, maybe ... you'd have the same complaint. Presidents are NOT forthcoming. They usually do things that they don't telegraph ahead of time, and that includes Obama, Bill Clinton, and FDR, SECOND's Democratic saints.

So obviously, that can't be SECOND's REAL complaint.

He's either REALLY complaining about Trump's goals (as he perceives them) or what Trump says IN PLACE OF the truth. Because Obama, Bill Clinton, and FDR said what SECOND wanted to hear, in place of the truth. They said soothing things to the liberal audience, even as they betrayed the liberal cause.

Right?

I can't think of any other possibilities, can you?

Well, of course you can't. You don't believe in "compare and contrast" as a learning tool, because the concept that you MIGHT have something to learn has never entered your tiny, infantile, self-important mind! TO YOU, even a simple exercise in logic ("compare and contrast") is somehow to be rejected.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:13 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yes. At the absolute best, it's redundancy.- SIX

Redundancy to what? To the non-existent national training and jobs programs? To the non-existent public works projects?- KIKI

And that's only if it were done on a temporary basis as a program to transition existing military service members out of an active duty role. -SIX

Why? just because you say so doesn't make it so. - KIKI

I don't agree, but not because it necessarily represents an numeric expansion (i.e. numbers of military volunteers increasing) but because it expands the scope of "military code of justice" to non-military situations even further. If there's any reason at all for putting recruits under "martial law" it's because they will be forced into a wartime situation, where obedience is required. But there's no reason to put people under "martial law" because they're learning how to make their beds, brush their teeth, and run a bulldozer. - SIGNY

This will STILL be the military. People will go for basic training. They will be called up for combat duty if they need to defend the country. - KIKI

That's kind of my point. If the end goal here is not actually lowering the existing numbers in the military - SIX

It's not. And I never said it was. It's to get us more value at home for government money spent on the military that would otherwise be wasted.- KIKI

I fear that the numbers would rise because of how desperate people are going to become for any sort of meaningful jobs as more get shipped overseas or replaced with automation. ... I don't believe the Government would put any limits to how many people could join this program since the labor would be extremely cheap ... Who's to say that this wouldn't grow? - SIX

Are you saying the government would somehow be 'forced' to admit the flood of applicants? And. Wait. Weren't you arguing this was such a bad deal no one would go for it? Do you think you can keep your arguments straight? 0 KIKI

... and they'd be signing over their lives on contract to the Government until their time was up. These "employees" would have no real say about the direction their lives go while enlisted ... SIX

You mean, JUST EXACTLY LIKE HOW THINGS ARE NOW? - KIKI

Everybody here knows how corrupt our Government and businesses are. SIX

Do you have a point? - KIKI

... and by the time they could leave there might not be a whole lot of good paying jobs utilizing the skills they learned SIX

... And that's different from now ... how exactly? KIKI

... if there are now twice as many new recruits in there as well as a waiting list, so they're probably much more likely to re-enlist for a small bonus or bump in pay for the next 4 years of their lives. This circle only stands to get more vicious as the ranks become professional caliber after re-enlisting 1 or 2 times because it's better than the alternatives. - SIX

And how's THAT different from now?- KIKI

You just go round and round, and go nowhere.- SIX



Hmm... offhand, it's the "value added" argument ..., the one that should be the most acceptable ... that troubles me most. It creates a motivation that could expand the program endlessly, EVEN IF there are no current wars being fought and no need for a constant/ expanded military force. The program would eliminate any possible "peace dividend" and any possible rational for reducing the military force/ budget by expanding the scope of the military into peacetime. I think that's the thing that bothers me.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:30 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You don't believe in "compare and contrast" as a learning tool, because the concept that you MIGHT have something to learn has never entered your tiny, infantile, self-important mind!



Compare and contrast this:

"President Donald Trump has told nearly six times more lies in the first 10 months of his presidency than former President Barack Obama did in his entire 8-year term, according to data collected and published Thursday in the New York Times."

http://fortune.com/2017/12/14/trump-lies-new-york-times/

The concept that you MIGHT have something to learn has never entered your tiny, infantile, self-important mind!

And bullsh*t - you defend Trussia with almost every post you make.

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I'm not defending Trump, you nitwit. I'm simply saying that SECOND's moral code is ... ah ... "situational"? Biased? Hypocritical?

SECOND is complaining about Trump being "not forthcoming". Well, if you apply THAT standard to every President back to ... Washington, maybe ... you'd have the same complaint. Presidents are NOT forthcoming. They usually do things that they don't telegraph ahead of time, and that includes Obama, Bill Clinton, and FDR, SECOND's Democratic saints.

So obviously, that can't be SECOND's REAL complaint.

He's either REALLY complaining about Trump's goals (as he perceives them) or what Trump says IN PLACE OF the truth. Because Obama, Bill Clinton, and FDR said what SECOND wanted to hear, in place of the truth. They said soothing things to the liberal audience, even as they betrayed the liberal cause.

Right?

I can't think of any other possibilities, can you?

Well, of course you can't. You don't believe in "compare and contrast" as a learning tool, because the concept that you MIGHT have something to learn has never entered your tiny, infantile, self-important mind! TO YOU, even a simple exercise in logic ("compare and contrast") is somehow to be rejected.

The government of Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko paid at least $400,000 to Michael Cohen, the personal lawyer of US president Donald Trump, to arrange a meeting at the White House.

Note to Signym: Trump did not take the money directly; Trump's bagman took it. With Signym's code of ethics, that can't be a bribe of Trump unless the Ukrainians placed the money directly into Trump's suit coat pocket. Or maybe Cohen is stealing from Trump, which means Trump is perfectly innocent of any wrongdoing. Maybe Trump should sue his bagman for the $400,000?

But we do know for sure that after the meeting of Trump and Ukraine's president, Ukraine stopped cooperating with Mueller in the investigation of Manafort. Another note to Signyn: Mueller can't prove this was quid pro quo where Ukraine does Trump a favor and Trump does Ukraine a favor. It could all be just a big coincidence, except there was the $400,000 Trump/Ukraine meeting where the "coincidence" could have been planned.

https://qz.com/1286718

What did Trump do for Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine ending its cooperation with Mueller? U.S. agrees to send lethal weapons to Ukraine, angering Russia. Further note to Signym: As long as Trump can perjure himself, Mueller can't "prove" it was quid pro quo, but it was.
www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-trump-weapons-ukraine-20171
222-story.html

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/376351-us-approves-sale-of-210-anti-
tank-missiles-to-ukraine


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh yeah, the New York Times. The one that pushed the Saddam WMD lie. Do you think they would even KNOW a lie from the truth? So far, they haven't demonstrated that capability!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:18 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You whine, bitch, and moan endlessly about Trump. I'd take it a lot more seriously if you didn't have such a big fucking double standard/ hole in your head.



I'd take you a little more seriously if you realized that Obama is no longer president. You and people of you ilk, constantly defend Trump (omg) by blaming someone who's out of work and has zero effect on your life. "If only you'd criticized John Tyler like this..." Big fucking transparent hole in your head.



The problem here man is that somehow you think things would be any better had things gone the other way.

If you look at my post history since Trump has become president, particularly on financial and employment issues, I'm not really happy with how my vote has turned out at all.

Context is key here.

Sure. Trump isn't all that great a president. I think most of the people who voted for him din't expect him to be. They were just fed up with the way the game was being played and wanted to throw the table over.

Don't expect me to jump on this internet bandwagon of Hate Trump though, especially with people who had their heads up Obama's asshole for the previous 8 years.

It's not going to change anything, and it's not as if you don't have every douchebag talking head on TV roasting the guy every night on TV.


At the end of the day we have the Democrats to thank for Trump. If they were at all reasonable then we wouldn't be here right now. We can't just ignore that fact because Trump is president now. Almost 2 years have passed and the Democrats and the Media that support them have only gotten worse in every aspect that laid the red carpet out for Trump. Unless the Democrats do a 180 very quickly, we're going to have another 6 years of Trump.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Note to Signym: Trump did not take the money directly; Trump's bagman took it.
So, engaging in another "compare and contrast" ... the Saudis plunked millions of dollars into the Clinton Foundation ... money that mysteriously dried up when Hillary lost the election. They didn't pay Hillary directly ... the fake Foundation got it.

Imagine this (another compare and contrast) ...

Bill and Hillary are investigated with the same vigor as Trump. The FBI pays an informant to cozy up to them, and opposition parties pay for "dossiers" on their foreign contacts with the Saudis, who cater to their pedophile BDMS tastes in some fancy hotel in Dubai. Instead of taking the word of the third party about the "hack" of the DNC computers, the FBI takes the servers as evidence and examines them forensically. Debbie Wasserman Schultz's relationship with Imran Awan, her conniving IT manager who managed to (illegally) get his hands on the private emails of dozens of Congresspeople, is probed vigorously. Podesta is spied on. Bill is spied on. Debbie is spied on. Saudi ringers are sent in to offer "dirt" on Trump. The Clinton Foundation's communications are monitored electronically. All of this on a FISA warrant based on some allegations about Hillary and Bill's pedophilic adventures. And instead of giving Hillary a "pass" on those 33,000 emails, the server is examined forensically, all potential copies of/ communications about are pursued and examined, and her staffers (instead of being given immunity) are indicted on irrelevant charges to squeeze information out of them. All of this is leaked to the cooperative mainstream press in a continuous "drip" of allegations while the intelligence community sonorously proclaims that the Saudis interfered with our elections, that Hillary colluded with them, and that she would place the Saudi interests above ours in the Mideast. This goes on before, during, and after the election, for over two years, as the FBI, CIA, and NSA crawl so far up Hillary's ass that they can look out of her mouth.

I could go on, but I think you should get the picture by now.

If everything that happened to Trump had happened to Hillary, you'd be huffing and puffing with outrage, OUTRAGE! I tell you. But basically, you have the moral spine of a jellyfish because you can't possibly bear to apply the same standards across the board.

You (collectively, not individually) consistently misinterpret my criticism of you as defense of Trump. Not so! I have plenty of criticisms of Trump, but in your laser-like focus on complete irrelevancies you simply haven't hit on my concerns.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:45 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

The problem here man is that somehow you think things would be any better had things gone the other way.



That's bullshit - find one post of mine where I said,"If only Hillary had won." That's the trouble with so many people on both sides of this - assuming the opposite is true when it's never been expressed. I will gladly and honestly tell you what I think, so don't fucking ASSUME.

Bonus: And because I knew Signym would try that sh*t I copied some of my posts on Hillary:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60433&p=7

“But anyway... Hillary's worst attribute is she's a really bad politician. Even terrible imho. Listening to her speak and try and sound presidential is painful. I can't listen, it's too forced, too fake, and I think that also reveals itself in her actions and policies. She is definitely not a sophisticated thinker and has very little charm or charisma, which could have serious consequences internationally.”

“I totally agree, she's smiling slime.”

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60433&p=6

“Except I hate Hillary.”

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60433&p=2

“As I said previously to you (you should read some of these posts, they're quite good) I could give a rat's behind about her.”

“Hillary is many things but less of a wild card than Trump. He's been complaining about the Iran deal. "We should have them coming to us on their knees..." He's more dangerous than Putin. But whatever and whomever - it's like choosing how you want to take a beating.”

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60433&p=1
“I could give a sh*t about her and certainly have no interest in defending any professional politician.”


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Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:49 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh yeah, the New York Times. The one that pushed the Saddam WMD lie. Do you think they would even KNOW a lie from the truth? So far, they haven't demonstrated that capability!




That's bull and you know it. But, if you are so sure go through the list and dispute it.



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