REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Sunday, April 8, 2018 22:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1591
PAGE 1 of 2

Tuesday, March 20, 2018 3:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-19/porton-down-scientists-under
-extreme-pressure-confirm-nerve-gas-russian



Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian

Authored by Craig Murray via The Strategic Culture Foundation,

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.

Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation.

The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days.

The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons.

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.


This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

In a small way I sympathize with the scientists. During a toxic spill, when I was analyzing air samples in the middle of the night to determine what and how much was in the air, I got a call from one of the honchos with his hair on fire telling me - don't calibrate! don't run QC! just give me numbers! So I said sure, OK, and went and calibrated and ran the QC I needed to. In my case, I wasn't being told to skew the results, just shortcut the process that verifies the numbers are accurate. (Good thing I ran the proper procedure. One of the toxic compounds showed up with phenomenally high results, and that number was used to determine risk and further sampling, and eventually went to court. But my evidence was solid.)

But this full court press to make scientists arrive at a predetermined result - does that remind anyone of Iraq's phantom WMDs? It sure smells the same to me.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It smells the same to me.

If you look at a list of poisonings blamed on Putin, what would be the point of using big, messy, noticeable (and not every effective) exotic/ unique poisons to kill your (not every important) enemies when a simple "car accident" or "heart attack" or "robbery gone bad" will be more effective and a lot less noticeable? Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:35 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ?



GIANT RED MIDDLE FINGER

Today's political strategy keyword is: Destabilization

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 21, 2018 11:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ? - SIGNY

GIANT RED MIDDLE FINGER
Today's political strategy keyword is Destabilization- GSTRING



So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 21, 2018 11:55 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.



Do you think killing someone in someone else's backyard, in the open, almost mockingly, creates peace and calm?

Putin controls what Russians think, so he's got a vice grip on his country's stability (I think that was what you were suggesting).

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 21, 2018 12:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.- SIGNY

Do you think killing someone in someone else's backyard, in the open, almost mockingly, creates peace and calm? Putin controls what Russians think, so he's got a vice grip on his country's stability (I think that was what you were suggesting). - CC



"Peace and calm" is not the problem. All that these poisonings have done is piss the west off against Russia, whip up anti-Russian feeling, invite sanctions against Russian entities and unify the various NATO nations under a commonly-purported threat.

How does that further Putin's aims?

You can't claim, on the one hand, that Putin is trying so desperately to reverse sanctions that he went so far as to "hack" our elections, and on the other hand that he would invite even MORE sanctions with a blatantly-Russian poisoning in a foreign nation, can you? What does that even accomplish, for him?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 22, 2018 9:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I see that CC has no explanation for how the FSB using unique Russian-based poisons for ineffectual assassination attempts against unimportant people might benefit Putin. Possibly because the idea makes no sense at all.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 22, 2018 11:13 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 22, 2018 11:49 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.




We all get it kpo. This is another example of sig and kiki defending Russia. No surprise here. It's what they always do. They either do it outright or attempt to disparage what we know to be true.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 23, 2018 3:41 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


So, let me guess...Russia is being framed. That would mean that some sinister country is out to make it look like Russia poisoned a former agent to make it seem that Putin and the FSB did it. The motive that would be used is revenge by Putin. What a dirty trick!

So Zerohedge scooped the world by obtaining this crucial bit of information. Someone, or some entity (cough, cough...the US) has it in for Comrade Putin.
How diabolical!

Tis' true...it makes little sense for Putin to exact revenge on a former, high ranking official of the KGB/FSB/MIC/KEY/MOUSE. There's no sense since the FSB are not really that sophisticated. They are no where near as sneaky and downright dastardly as the US and British Intelligence.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-19/porton-down-scientists-under
-extreme-pressure-confirm-nerve-gas-russian



Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian

Authored by Craig Murray via The Strategic Culture Foundation,

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.

Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation.

The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days.

The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons.

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.


This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

In a small way I sympathize with the scientists. During a toxic spill, when I was analyzing air samples in the middle of the night to determine what and how much was in the air, I got a call from one of the honchos with his hair on fire telling me - don't calibrate! don't run QC! just give me numbers! So I said sure, OK, and went and calibrated and ran the QC I needed to. In my case, I wasn't being told to skew the results, just shortcut the process that verifies the numbers are accurate. (Good thing I ran the proper procedure. One of the toxic compounds showed up with phenomenally high results, and that number was used to determine risk and further sampling, and eventually went to court. But my evidence was solid.)

But this full court press to make scientists arrive at a predetermined result - does that remind anyone of Iraq's phantom WMDs? It sure smells the same to me.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 23, 2018 3:45 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


When you're right, you're right...the Mob does leave a mess whenever they whack someone. My guess is that Putin, alledgedly, wants to be sure everyone knows not to mess with the FSB.

The new version of the Russian Mafia!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 23, 2018 6:40 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.



Deal. Not holding my breath though.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 23, 2018 9:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?- KRAPO

Well, it depends on who they've assassinated.

If they assassinate a "snitch" from their own ranks, it's a warning to snitches.
If they assassinate a deadbeat, it's a threat to potential welshers everywhere.
If they assassinate a rival, it's a territorial statement.

But what would they gain by assassinating a local cop and leaving a "calling card", especially if that murder was going to ignite a full-on war against them by the FBI, CIA, IRS, ATF&E, local PD, and the banks? Because that's kind of what happened, and it still doesn't make any sense from a Russian POV. So please explain.

ETA: OTOH, these murders suit the UK, USA, and NATO agenda just fine.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 23, 2018 6:27 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But what would they gain by assassinating a local cop




-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 23, 2018 8:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In other words, KRAPO, you've run out of anything relevant to say? Gotten to THUGR territory, where you post a cartoon instead of words, claim victory and run away?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 27, 2018 2:22 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

In other words, KRAPO, you've run out of anything relevant to say?

Nothing to add to your nonsensical ravings, no.

Quote:

Gotten to THUGR territory, where you post a cartoon instead of words

A cartoon? It's called a meme, grandma.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 27, 2018 2:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It's funny, but hubby was just talking with a Russian expat postdoc where they both work, and this man ... who was EXTREMELY anti-Russian and anti-Putin ... has gotten completely fed up with the western press. One of the things that he said was that the mass spectrum of this type of nerve agent had been published years ago. This means that at least enough of the chemical to analyze must have been synthesized, and that many nations have researched these kinds of compounds. In other words, the synthesis of this kind of warfare agent is something of an open international secret; there's no reason to believe that Russia was the ONLY possible source.

Supposedly, the UK has refused to turn over any evidence or any samples to Russia for parallel analysis, and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.

Yanno, we've had many industries watch over our shoulders while we recovered/ processed samples. And one of the best ways to resolve conflicting results was split-sample analysis, which we did with extremely contentious samples. That's the only honest, above-board way to resolve these kinds of problems. Is the UK not willing to conduct an honest investigation capable of withstanding transparency?

Apparently, the way the MSM has been behaving has completely shaken this guy's faith in "western values" and especially the western press.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 27, 2018 4:03 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

there's no reason to believe that Russia was the ONLY possible source.

Let me put it another, more accurate way: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that. An important point here is that we're talking about nation states, not private groups or individuals.

Quote:

Supposedly, the UK has refused to turn over any evidence or any samples to Russia for parallel analysis

Spoken like someone who trusts the upstanding honesty of the Russian government. You don't think the Russian state would have a motive to lie? Or has a track record of lying? If your answer is "no" to these Qs, put yourself in the shoes of someone who isn't a fool for a moment to try to understand where the rest of us are coming from.

Quote:

That's the only honest, above-board way to resolve these kinds of problems. Is the UK not willing to conduct an honest investigation capable of withstanding transparency?

They've submitted samples to the OPCW, does that count?

Quote:

and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.

Lol, just what the Skripals need. "Good morning Mr and Mrs Skripal, some agents of the Russian government are here."

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 27, 2018 7:16 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

Quote:

and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.

Lol, just what the Skripals need. "Good morning Mr and Mrs Skripal, some agents of the Russian government are here."




*sputter* "So nice to meet you both...please, let me... shake your hand."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I guess neither of you think much about the accused being allowed to examine the evidence? The norms of the justice system are meaningless to you?

Apparently so.

******

In any case, here's a fundamental question:

If this was such a super-secret chemical (category of chemicals, really) then how did the UK lab manage to identify and name it so quickly? How did they know what it was? How did they know what name to give it?

The way it really works in chemical trace ID is that if you've stumbled across a unique compound, it takes quite a bit of guesswork and calculation to re-assemble the original molecule from the mass fragments ... I know, because we had to do that for several unknown compounds that we ran across. It's not a simple project, and on top of that, we certainly wouldn't have been able to put a name on it like (for example) "Scotchguard" unless we already had a sample of Scotchguard to compare it to for positive ID.

So you can't put a "commercial" name to a chemical do that unless you have a standard to compare it to, which means that SOMEone must have produced enough of them (Novichok) as exemplars, and those exemplars (or the mass spectral library of these compounds) existed in the Porton Down lab.

And where ONE synthesis was done, and the information was in some fashion accessible to the Porton Down Lab, then clearly the information on how to do the synthesis was already "out there", at least among some western government labs.

Hence, the very careful wording "of a type developed by Russia".

You'll notice that they didn't say "of a type developed ONLY by Russia".

That's the amazing thing about chemistry: It works, whether you're in Russia or the UK (or the USA); and if they could make it there, then some enterprising chemist found a way to make it here.

I had a past employee who now works for VERIFIN. I'll nose around as ask what she knows.

BTW, the "Novichok" designation doesn't refer to a single molecular formula, like Sarin, but to a class of related compounds.



*****

And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 10:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


bump

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 11:06 AM

THGRRI


27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 11:34 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.



I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 11:36 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.



That was a pretty awesome display wasn't it? "Hey Russia, stop being the child at the picnic! The grown-ups have had enough!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 11:51 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.



That was a pretty awesome display wasn't it? "Hey Russia, stop being the child at the picnic! The grown-ups have had enough!"



Yep, solidarity is a good message to send. Yet what the Russian people don't care about, is when it is the oligarchs money that is targeted. They know it was pilfered from them. To them expulsions are targeted at Russia itself. It allows for an, it's us against them mentality. That helps Putin. More sanctions against the pilfered money is what works best. Those sanctions separate the Russian peoples interests from the Russian governments interests.

T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.
I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is.

Quote:

27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
And this is the perfect reason why Russia/ Putin would NOT want to poison anyone in another nation. You're kind of making my case for me, THUGR, if you hadn't noticed. But of course you wouldn't.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 1:07 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
And this is the perfect reason why Russia/ Putin would NOT want to poison anyone in another nation. You're kind of making my case for me, THUGR, if you hadn't noticed. But of course you wouldn't.

Signym, that is wrongheaded. Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far. The unified international response to the Skripal poisoning shows that the West will only suffer so much provocation. For years now, Putin’s calculation has been that the West is strong but lacking in unity and will, allowing a scrappy Russia willing to bend and break the rules of the international order to assert its place as a global player. But the success of this gambit hinged on his capacity to assess what the West would tolerate. By exceeding those limits, he may have delivered a triple blow to himself.

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/putin-skripal-expuls
ion-russia-poisoning-trump/556556
/


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 1:42 PM

THGRRI


Remember second that Russia moves the money it steals from its people to America and Europe. One way is in real estate purchases. This is a big boon to the economies of the recipient countries. That has paid for a lot of patience or look the other way policies in the past.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 2:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND
Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid.

And doesn't that blow your narrative of Putin and Trump being in cahoots with each other? Why would Putin blow a perfectly good puppet over a pointless poisoning?

Nothing that you or the MSM say makes a bit of sense. It's just plain idiotic.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:10 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND



Quote:

Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig





I do, I think Putin's that stupid. I think you are as well.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:


Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND

Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig

I do- THUGR

If Putin is so stupid, why are you so paranoid about him?

In any case, everybody knows you're the biggest idiot on the board - your thoughts apparently have never even met each other so you contradict yourself all the time- so your opinion doesn't count.

Heil Hitler!





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 3:18 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:


Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND

Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig

I do- THUGR

Then why are you so paranoid about Putin?

In any case, everybody knows you're the biggest idiot on the board, so your opinion doesn't count.

Heil Hitler!




I see Putin as guilty as charged, when it comes to everything that's been reported about him in the press here and abroad. Nothing paranoid about that. You see him as innocent and you post on his behalf every time. We all know why comrade.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 4:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I see Putin as guilty as charged, when it comes to everything that's been reported about him in the press here and abroad- THUGR
Well, OF COURSE you do! You never were one to let evidence, logic, or western jurisprudence stand in your way!

Heil Hitler!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 4:30 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess neither of you think much about the accused being allowed to examine the evidence? The norms of the justice system are meaningless to you?


Are you saying accused criminals should get to conduct their own analyses? "According to MY lab results, that isn't my DNA at the crime scene, your honour."

Yeah, real useful.

Quote:

If this was such a super-secret chemical (category of chemicals, really) then how did the UK lab manage to identify and name it so quickly? How did they know what it was? How did they know what name to give it?

You yourself said just before (and I agreed with you) that this "super-secret" chemical was an "open international secret", and its mass spectrum published, etc.

Quote:

You'll notice that they didn't say "of a type developed ONLY by Russia".

Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program. Novichok doesn't prove that it was Russia, it merely points to Russia, the only country with a known Novichok program.

Quote:

So you can't put a "commercial" name to a chemical do that unless you have a standard to compare it to... and those exemplars (or the mass spectral library of these compounds) existed in the Porton Down lab.

Yes, without doubt, the scientists at Porton Down had access to the mass spectral library of the Novichoks. As you said yourself: it had been PUBLISHED. So what's your point here?


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 4:42 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.



I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.


Exactly - starting the war in Ukraine's east especially, was a misstep. I personally think Putin should've stopped at Crimea. As it is, he has drawn much heavier international sanctions, created two little separatist enclaves that bleed money from Russia, and lost Ukraine from Russia's geopolitical orbit FOREVER.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 4:49 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is.



And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 28, 2018 9:05 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Calmly and with great sincerity, Putin said many untruthful things before and after the annexation of Crimea, proving that he is an efficient ruler. He said many untruthful things about Russian doping after the Winter Olympics at Sochi, proving it again. It is Putin’s way of handling problems with the least expenditure of his personal energy and time. In that way he is a very efficient ruler and a lying sack of shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Fede
ration#Crimean_status_referendum


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is. - SIGNY

And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.- GSTRING

I guess Kosovo was too.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 4:29 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is. - SIGNY

And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.- GSTRING

I guess Kosovo was too.




You haven't even thought about that reply.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 10:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Three points, KPO

The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.

Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing" with their pet neo-Nazis running around, in government, incorporated into the armed forces, and dragging people off buses and beating them up or burning them en masse. I guess you "forgot" that part.

What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any (except that one secession was promoted by the west and one by the east), but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:09 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Three points, KRAPO

The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.

Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing" with their pet neo-Nazis running around, in government, incorporated into the armed forces, and dragging people off buses and beating them up or burning them en masse. I guess you "forgot" that part.

What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any (except that one secession was promoted by the west and one by the east), but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain.




First let me say again we see sig present a Putinish point of view. Secondly sig, Kosovo declared independence. Crimea was annexed by Russia. Big difference...


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.

Second ... Heil Hitler!



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:05 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.

Second ... Heil Hitler!





OK a quiz.

Who here hates Jews? that would be you.

Who here is attacking the rule of law and media in this country? Something Hitler did in Germany? Again, that would be you.

Who didn't respond to my challenge of the so called facts you posted. You didn't...

T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2018 3:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.
Second ... Heil Hitler!

- SIGNY

OK a quiz.
Who here hates Jews? that would be you.

Uh huh. I don't think I've EVER said anything bad about Jews, so .. prove it. LINKS PLEASE

Quote:

Who here is attacking the rule of law and media in this country? Something Hitler did in Germany? Again, that would be you.
Uh huh. What I've been posting about, over and over, is the EQUAL APPLICATION of the law and CONSISTENT ETHICAL CODE, so, once again ... prove it. LINKS PLEASE.

Quote:

Who didn't respond to my challenge of the so called facts you posted. You didn't...
What "facts"? As far as I can tell, you never post facts, you simply post wildly off-base personal attacks. So, prove it. LINKS PLEASE, to your so-called "challenge".

As far as YOU'RE concerned, what YOU like is a very authoritarian style of government: One which has the power and the authority to snoop into people's lives, censor communication, and declare people guilty on no evidence at all. You believe in, and promote, The Big Lie and you LOVE the idea of the elite controlling our society. Plus, you're a war-monger. As far as I can tell, you're just the perfect little Nazi, so...

Heil Hitler!




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2018 11:28 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.


A Soviet scientist who worked on the Novichok program turned whistleblower and published a report in the West about it. Any specific evidence that the US has manufactured Novichok agents?

Quote:


Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing"


"Little green men" started running around in Donbas in early April 2014, storming police stations and whatnot. By this time Kremlin propaganda had been screaming about Ukrainian ethnic cleansing or persecution campaigns against ethnic Russians for months - but this was all fantastical, exaggerated bullshit. Classic propaganda. I remember you sharing some of it. It was the dubious grounds Putin needed to start his "civil" war.

Quote:

What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any

Haha. Well it's not because they're not obvious, and it's not because they haven't been pointed out to you.



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2018 1:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.-SIGNY

A Soviet scientist who worked on the Novichok program turned whistleblower and published a report in the West about it. Any specific evidence that the US has manufactured Novichok agents?- KPO


Mass spectral libraries are specific pieces of information which are affected by the instruments they were acquired on. In order for a mass spectral library to be useful, they must be acquired on instruments which meet specific criteria; it is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.

Quote:

Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing"-SIGNY

"Little green men" started running around in Donbas in early April 2014, storming police stations and whatnot. By this time Kremlin propaganda had been screaming about Ukrainian ethnic cleansing or persecution campaigns against ethnic Russians for months - but this was all fantastical, exaggerated bullshit. Classic propaganda. I remember you sharing some of it. It was the dubious grounds Putin needed to start his "civil" war.- KPO



Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?

That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government? https://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukrain
e_partner
/

That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen? that the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?

What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake? If that's your post, then you're either delusional or a complete liar.

Quote:

What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain. SIGNY

Haha. Well it's not because they're not obvious, and it's not because they haven't been pointed out to you.- KPO

So, point them out, and we can go over that item by item. I'll bet you that you can't.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2018 1:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The UK government’s presentation on the Salisbury incident, which was repeatedly cited in recent days as an “ultimate proof” of Russia’s involvement into Skripal’s assassination attempt, was made public earlier today.

This 6-paged PDF is a powerful evidence of another intellectual low of British propaganda machine. Open it and you can tell that substantially it makes only two assertions on the Skripal case, and both are false:
Salisbury incident UK government presentation March 22, 2018 Skripal


First. Novichok is a group of agents developed only by Russia and not declared under the CWC” – a false statement.

Novichok was originally developed in the USSR (Nukus Lab, today in Uzbekistan, site completely decommissioned according to the US-Uzbekistan agreement by 2002). One of its key developers, Vil Mirzayanov, defected to the United States in 1990s, its chemical formula and technology were openly published in a number of chemical journals outside Russia. Former top-ranking British foreign service officer Craig Murray specifically noted this point on March 17:

I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.

This makes complete nonsense of the Theresa May’s “of a type developed by Russia” line, used to parliament and the UN Security Council. This explains why Porton Down has refused to cave in to governmental pressure to say the nerve agent was Russian. If Iran can make a novichok, so can a significant number of states.

Second. “We are without doubt that Russia is responsible. No country bar Russia has combined capability, intent and motive. There is no plausible alternative explanation” – an outstading example of self-hypnosis. None of the previous items could even remotely lead to this conclusion. The prominent British academician from the University of Kent Prof. Richard Sakwa has elaborated on this on March 23 the following way:

Rather than just the two possibilities outlined by Theresa May, in fact there are at least six, possibly seven. The first is that this was a state-sponsored, and possibly Putin-ordered, killing… This version simply does not make sense, and until concrete evidence emerges, it should be discounted…

The second version is rather more plausible, that the authorities had lost control of its stocks of chemical weapons. In the early 1990s Russian facilities were notoriously lax, but since the 2000s strict control over stocks were re-imposed, until their final destruction in 2017. It is quite possible that some person or persons unknown secreted material, and then conducted some sort of vigilante operation…

The third version is the exact opposite: some sort of anti-Putin action by those trying to force his policy choices…

The fourth version is similar, but this time the anti-Putinists are not home-grown but outsiders. Here the list of people who would allegedly benefit by discrediting Russia is a long one. If Novichok or its formula has proliferated, then it would not be that hard to organise some sort of false flag operation. The list of countries mentioned in social media in this respect is a long one. Obviously, Ukraine comes top of the list, not only because of motivation, but also because of possible access to the material, as a post-Soviet state with historical links to the Russian chemical weapons programme. Israel has a large chemical weapon inventory and is not a party to the OPCW; but it has no motivation for such an attack (unless some inadvertent leak occurred here). Another version is that the UK itself provoked the incident, as a way of elevating its status as a country ‘punching above its weight’. The British chemical weapons establishment, Porton Down, is only 12 kilometres from Salisbury. While superficially plausible, there is absolutely no evidence that this is a credible version, and should be discounted.

The fifth version is a rather more elaborate development of the previous point. There is circumstantial evidence, a version outlined by the Daily Telegraph, that Skripal may have had a hand in devising Christopher Steele’s ‘Trump Dossier’. The British agent who originally recruited Skripal, Pablo Miller, lives in Salisbury, and also has connections with Orbis International, Steele’s agency in London. In this version, Skripal is still working in one way or another with MI6, and fed stories to Steele, who then intervenes massively in US politics, effectively preventing the much-desired rapprochement between Trump and Putin. Deep anger at the malevolent results of the Steele and British intervention in international politics and US domestic affairs prompts a revenge killing, with the demonstration effect achieved by using such a bizarre assassination weapon.

The sixth version is the involvement of certain criminal elements, who for reasons best known to themselves were smuggling the material, and released it by accident. In this version, the Skripals are the accidental and not intended victims. There are various elaborations of this version, including the activities of anti-Putin mobsters. One may add a seventh version here, in which Islamic State or some other Islamist group seeks to provoke turmoil in Europe.


What follows is even more depressing. Slide 3 is dedicated to some sort of anatomy lesson:


Slide 4 seemingly represents a real “honey trap”. Just look at it:


The authors of this “report” mixed up a very strange cocktail of multitype allegations, none of which have ever been proven or recognized by any responsible entity (like legal court or dedicated official international organization). Of course we are not committed to argue on every cell, but taking e.g. “August 2008 Invasion of Georgia” we actually can’t understand why the EU-acknowledged Saakashvili’s aggression against South Ossetia is exposed here as an example of “Russian malign activity”…

Have you totally lost your minds, ladies & gentlemen from the Downing Street?


https://orientalreview.org/2018/03/28/salisbury-incident-hard-evidence
-for-soft-minds
/

originally found here, but since THUGR is too stupid or too lazy to follow embedded links, I did that for him.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-29/20-more-questions-journalist
s-should-be-asking-about-skripal-case



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2018 2:57 PM

THGRRI


Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2018 3:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.
Heil Hitler!





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2018 3:08 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

T

Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.

Heil Hitler!




I'm sure your mother would be very proud.


T

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
The Evidens
Tue, April 24, 2018 10:22 - 904 posts
Not The Onion: DNC sues everyone
Tue, April 24, 2018 10:14 - 9 posts
Countdown Clock to Trumps impeachment " STARTS"
Tue, April 24, 2018 09:46 - 1006 posts
A thread for Democrats Only
Tue, April 24, 2018 08:49 - 925 posts
Allison Mack, a Superman tv show Smallville actress, charged over Nxivm sex trafficking, accused of slavery, human trafficking, running a sexual abuse cult
Tue, April 24, 2018 08:01 - 9 posts
The Unemployment Rate Facts
Tue, April 24, 2018 07:50 - 92 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!!!
Tue, April 24, 2018 06:42 - 514 posts
the power of the democratic vote
Mon, April 23, 2018 15:11 - 7 posts
The Trump trade wars?
Mon, April 23, 2018 09:50 - 72 posts
Stoopid Comey. FBI = Keystone Kops
Mon, April 23, 2018 08:59 - 89 posts
Good grief: More inet idiocy
Mon, April 23, 2018 07:16 - 12 posts
Where are the democrats? Waiting for the Deep State to get rid of Trump?
Mon, April 23, 2018 00:34 - 36 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL