REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Dems, Dem-lites and Independents, who ya backing at this point and why?

POSTED BY: WISHIMAY
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 09:25
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Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:06 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

And you were doing so good Wishy. Having a legitimate adult conversation for almost two days on the subject. I was going to comment on that before, but I knew it was just a matter of time before the other shoe dropped.




"He doesn't read" ISN'T an attack, it's truth. You deny ANYTHING you don't personally see yourself and you don't believe written laws and principles of science because you (AGAIN) lack the personality to validate to YOURSELF what already is proven fact.

Personality, meaning: set of traits that allow intellectual function.

You have a mental disorder. Not kidding, not attacking.
If you could put your broken ego aside you could see it and fix it.


You stopped drinking, you got a job, now UNDERSTAND SCIENCE. Pick up a book fer crissakes...

Black holes exist, weed ISN'T all good for you, and this planet is shaped like a lumpy lemon.

There's yer starting point.




I read plenty. More than most here, without a doubt.

I just don't read trashy news sites on either side. FOX and CNN are nothing but tabloids in 2019.

As for having a mental disorder, I probably do. I'm certain I have OCD among other things. I've never hid that. I'd caution you, however, against throwing stones when living in a glass house yourself.

Black holes might exist. God might exist. The earth might be round. Trump might be Satan. I've got an open mind to all of that.

Why would you choose to blindly believe anything somebody else says, especially when making that choice has zero effect on your life?

I find that extremely limiting.


Maybe you should smoke some pot and expand your mind. I can't imagine it could do anything but improve your overall disposition as a bonus.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:32 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
So, you cannot answer, you have no clue about the basic facts of pot, you avoid your failures by not even bothering to try to answer.


I asked you who smoked pot that you cared about that fucked you over to make you have such a hardon for it.

You answered my question with a question of your own.

You answer first.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Well, you certainly post like you're stoned, or verge of Trollhood.

You did not ask a question. I've already quoted your post, so go reread what you posted, despite what your mind thinks you posted.

I asked a question, you avoided it.


You first. No, you first, no you first.

It's OK for you to admit you don't know anything. I've assumed that for a long time now.

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:13 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
If one wants to help "repair" blacks in America, one should legalize weed and stop putting the fathers in prison for 25 to life for selling it.

Not so fast. As much as I think weed is better than booze, weed still has plenty of negatives. Just today there was a study that found that women that used it for morning sickness had babies that have fewer neurons in the memory sections of the brain. That's a biggie. It would also explain why people who use it regularly before 27-ish are more apathetic and less competent because your brain isn't done forming connections to those areas until then. And according to recent traffic studies in states where weed is legal, there ARE more accidents and people on weed are more likely to be on OTHER substances when arrested for DUI.

Maybe we should make it legal for people who can prove they cannot procreate or drive. Less people, more buses...win win.



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Pot is not "harmless"... it DOES have an effect on people's brains ... that's why they ingest/smoke/vape it!

OTOH, it's not a Class 1 Drug either. It should either be legalized AND REGULATED, or possession should be reduced to a misdemeanor.

I personally don't like pot. In fact, I absolutely hate that "free floating" effect.

I am under no delusion that anybody cares if or how I weigh in on this sub-exchange of the discussion.

However, I find it a bit disorienting when SIGs has an off-topic minirant which is also incorrect (she is not immune), while Wishi posts a coherent and cogent explanation of facts - all in the same thread, and sub-exchange within the thread. It's like going back in time, when this used to occur somewhat occasional.

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

And you were doing so good Wishy. Having a legitimate adult conversation for almost two days on the subject. I was going to comment on that before, but I knew it was just a matter of time before the other shoe dropped.- SIX

"He doesn't read" ISN'T an attack, it's truth. WISHY

Baloney.
Have you personally observed SIX in real life? Do you have any actual knowledge of how he spends his free time?

Of course you don't.

Quote:

You have a mental disorder. Not kidding, not attacking.
If you could put your broken ego aside you could see it and fix it.- WISHY

THIS, from the picture of "emotional intelligence" herself??? The one who jumps into completely neutral threads just to attack, and keep on attacking?

You've said that you were victimized in your childhood, but... seriously ... you got to stop attacking everyone as if THEY were the source of your problem because they're not. You're not a child anymore, you're not a victim anymore, so stop attacking other people. BTW I wouldn't accuse others of having personality disorder, if I were you.

Now, do you suppose we could get back to the discussion that YOU started?

Are you still supporting Booker? If yes, why? If no, have you decided on an alternate?


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 12:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


JSF: You're doing what a lot of the liberaliods here do: Misstating what someone posted and then attacking them on it.

I didn't see SIX post that marijuana was "all good", just that it wasn't as bad as booze or cigarettes.

Do you have a problem with that position? If so, why?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 1:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
JSF: You're doing what a lot of the liberaliods here do: Misstating what someone posted and then attacking them on it.

I didn't see SIX post that marijuana was "all good", just that it wasn't as bad as booze or cigarettes.

Do you have a problem with that position? If so, why?

There is a lot of non-quoting going on in this thread.

If you feel that I have misstated somebody's statement, you will need to be specific. I don't think I have. I don't like it when others do it to each other.
If you feel I have attacked somebody's position in this thread, please be specific. I do not see where I have attacked anybody, other than their evasion.


6ix is avoiding a basic foundational question. You and he have spun off on tangential topics unrelated to the foundation.

Once a basic foundational premise is established, further discussion can develop from there. Otherwise me talking about Terra revolving around Sol while you chatting about why the Sun rises in different directions depending upon which neighborhood you wake up in does not make for progressive intercourse.

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 5:31 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
So, you cannot answer, you have no clue about the basic facts of pot, you avoid your failures by not even bothering to try to answer.


I asked you who smoked pot that you cared about that fucked you over to make you have such a hardon for it.

You answered my question with a question of your own.

You answer first.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Well, you certainly post like you're stoned, or verge of Trollhood.

You did not ask a question. I've already quoted your post, so go reread what you posted, despite what your mind thinks you posted.

I asked a question, you avoided it.


You first. No, you first, no you first.

It's OK for you to admit you don't know anything. I've assumed that for a long time now.



It's okay for you to be wrong too.

Posted on Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:30 AM, a post you quoted when you asked me your question 5 1/2 hours later...

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Oh... and BTW, JSF, I haven't smoked in years now. As long as they refuse to legalize it on a national level, I'm not risking the admittedly very small chance that a job that pays well enough for me to consider working full time comes along.

I'm also wondering what horrible thing somebody you cared about did while smoking weed that makes you so adamant against it. You're honestly the only person online or IRL that I know that thinks the way you do about it in 2019.

Do Right, Be Right. :)



Go ahead and check it. The quote is in your post.

And fuck your "studies". For every one you can find that has negatives attached, I can find one with positives attached. (Which, BTW, I don't see a single study posted on your end yet either).

Why you acting like the "Libtards" you hate so much by calling somebody a troll. This issue seems to be really personal to you. Was your mommy a worthless pothead or something?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 6:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Sorry JSF, I misatritbuted that quote; it came from (who else?) WISHY.

SIX, I find YOUR response to JSF to be overly provocative and personal.

But, be that as it may ...

SIX, you can't ignore the negative effects of pot, just as ... JSF you cant ignore the positives. It's not like they cancel out.

It's like ANY drug ... it has pluses and side effects. You have to be aware of both.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:44 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Sorry JSF, I misatritbuted that quote; it came from (who else?) WISHY.

SIX, I find YOUR response to JSF to be overly provocative and personal.

But, be that as it may ...

SIX, you can't ignore the negative effects of pot, just as ... JSF you cant ignore the positives. It's not like they cancel out.

It's like ANY drug ... it has pluses and side effects. You have to be aware of both.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .



I'm just putting it another way that has a question mark at the end of the sentence. I think JSF was confused about a question being asked when it didn't have one the first time.

I also find it rather telling that JSF hardly ever insults me unless the topic of pot comes up. Then he behaves exactly like the "Libtards" on this forum that he so despises. You noticed that yourself.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:45 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The one who jumps into completely neutral threads just to attack, and keep on attacking?


Now, do you suppose we could get back to the discussion that YOU started?

Are you still supporting Booker? If yes, why? If no, have you decided on an alternate?





Emotionally intelligent people hate attention whores and manipulators. They are both pretty disgusting traits rooted in extreme narcissism.

When you stop the stupid, I'll stop calling you out. All it takes.

And no, I haven't been home much this week and have not had time to look up ANYTHING.

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Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:48 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:


I also find it rather telling that JSF hardly ever insults me unless the topic of pot comes up. Then he behaves exactly like the "Libtards" on this forum that he so despises. You noticed that yourself.




JSF is a rule junkie because he can't figure out for himself what is right or wrong, I doubt it has much to do with a traumatic pot-related experience.

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Friday, April 12, 2019 7:55 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SIX, you can't ignore the negative effects of pot, just as ... JSF you cant ignore the positives. It's not like they cancel out.

It's like ANY drug ... it has pluses and side effects. You have to be aware of both.



All I can do is talk about my personal experience with pot, relative to other drugs, and to how these things effected people I know. I'm not a doctor. I never said I was. Find me ANYTHING that is good for you if used without moderation. Food. Work. Leisure. Hell... you can actually die if you drink too much water.

I smoked weed every single day that I was working jobs making over 50k and 60k per year. I smoked weed every single day I was power lifting in my early 20's and was a 200lb brick shit house.

Conversely, I nearly let alcohol kill me. I can't imagine that my 23 years of smoking cigarettes is doing me any favors either.

I've lost friends to harder drugs, such as cocaine and heroin. Some died. Some eventually went to prison. Others I just had to sever ties with and I have no idea where they're at now. Those that only smoked pot, I still have a relationship with all these years later.


One thing that I think people who don't smoke pot at all are influenced by is seeing people on TV and movies get stoned out of their gourds. I'm not going to lie and say that my friends and I didn't do that back in our day, but if I were smoking today I'd never do that now.

In the last 15 or so years, when I did smoke, a single ounce would last me around 2 1/2 months. That's roughly a $60 bag, that I'd occasionally puff out of a hitter box several times a night after work... more on the weekends. When I smoke too much, I get paranoid. But just a little hit every few hours when it's time to relax really clears the mind. It just makes everything feel and smell and taste better. If I'm working on my hobbies and projects, or working around the house, I'm able to super focus on them. If I'm talking with friends, the conversations are more stimulating.

I think JSF's problem here is that when he hears about somebody smoking weed, he imagines Snoop Dogg rolling up an entire ounce of weed in a blunt and smoking until he's retarded.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, April 12, 2019 10:49 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Anyway...

Buttigieg continues to impress me, but that doesn't always mean he'd make a good president, or that he'd beat Dump. Good article here:

https://www.wired.com/story/pete-buttigieg-revived-south-bend-with-tec
h-up-next-america
/

Swalwell is also impressive - smart guy with experience in gov.

Both of them are a bit young. Both of them are much better human beings than Trump, it's night and f*cking day.

Fwiw: Sometimes the problem isn't the candidates, it's the dumb @ss voters. I harp about consumers being as big a part of the problems with commerce & markets & good & services - same deal.

Here's the list so far and some comments:

Cory Booker - eh, no way
Pete Buttigieg - very impressed
Julian Castro - great dude, character and compassion, but I don't see it.
John Delaney
Tulsi Gabbard - nah
Kirsten Gillibrand - love her conviction, but I don't see it.
Mike Gravel
Kamala Harris - she's kind of a downer imho
John Hickenlooper
Jay Inslee
Amy Klobuchar - great person, not a president
Wayne Messam
Beto O'Rourke - too preachy, too hipster
Tim Ryan - my man from Ohio. Great ideas, great connection to the working class, but not this time
Bernie Sanders - great ideas but too old
Eric Swalwell - only negative is his flatline charisma.
Biden - too old
Elizabeth Warren - also great ideas and conviction, but she'd never get the votes
Marianne Williamson
Andrew Yang - Nah
Mr. Starbucks - ya gotta be kidding

There's a lot to like & respect in many of these people, a lot of great ideas and passion, but I'm not seeing anyone that I feel confident could beat Orange Dump.

It's early yet.

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Friday, April 12, 2019 3:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hmm... interesting list.Just OOC, of the people that you listed as "not seeing it/ not this time" it's because you think they won't get the votes, correct? Why do you supposed that is?

What is it that you like about Buttigieg? Does he have specific positions/ history that particularly appeal to you, over all of the other choices? I admit, I never heard of him before, and name recognition counts for a lot.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, April 12, 2019 3:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OK, I looked him up. Here's what I found out about him:

He's the youngest mayor of a city over 100,000. (South Bend, Indianna)
He served in the naval reserves for seven months, separated from the military and came out as gay
Smart enough to get a Rhodes scholarship (just like Bill Clinton)
Reversed the population decline of South Bend
Appeals to millenials, likes Instagram
Wants to raise the minimum wage and is for Medicare for all

That leaves a lot of unknowns:
How did he reverse the population decline of South Bend? Did he attract more jobs? If so, what kind?
What does he think about military spending, and our endless wars abroad?
What does he think about the budget deficit, our infrastructural decay, and manufacturing deficit?
Climate change?
How does he intend to pay for "Medicare for all", and preserve jobs if the minimum wage increase causes loss of jobs?
Immigration?


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, April 12, 2019 8:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Why the "nah" for Yang, CC?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, April 12, 2019 9:22 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Anyway...

Buttigieg continues to impress me, but that doesn't always mean he'd make a good president, or that he'd beat Dump. Good article here:



I just don't see it happening. I step out the front door and ask myself how many of these people would vote for a gay man and the answer is a resounding "not enough."

And of the ones that wouldn't mind if he's gay and vote for him, how many wanna watch guys be gay on TV for four years?? Even less.

The plus side, I would look forward to an era of good decorating

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Friday, April 12, 2019 9:56 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why the "nah" for Yang, CC?




Wondering myself. The man wants to give $1000 a month to every adult in a kind or wealth restructuring because corporations are sucking it all up and he has a very good point about almost 60% of the population is paycheck to paycheck. My neighbors have three kids and two decent jobs and she's been begging the use of my car because they have NO savings and NO credit and her van died. The older kids will both be driving age by next year and they can't afford them to drive.

I think $1000 bucks a month is never going to work, but unfortunately...people like my neighbors are the rule rather the exception these days. Several of my kids friends won't be driving until 18 or later. Just keeping a vehicle running is crazy crazy expensive. We've spent $60k on vehicles ourselves in 10 years, with the four accidents....Sure we got a about half that back from insurance, but it's been a struggle for us to keep up with repairs.

My kiddo should be getting her license in the next couple months and her friends are jealous. I think that's odd. It doesn't help driver's ed isn't taught IN school anymore.

I feel bad for Millennials. They really are going to have the worst financial time since the 20's.

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Friday, April 12, 2019 10:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hmm... interesting list.Just OOC, of the people that you listed as "not seeing it/ not this time" it's because you think they won't get the votes, correct? Why do you supposed that is?

What is it that you like about Buttigieg? Does he have specific positions/ history that particularly appeal to you, over all of the other choices? I admit, I never heard of him before, and name recognition counts for a lot.

You don't follow Homosexual Politicians?

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Friday, April 12, 2019 11:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why the "nah" for Yang, CC?


Wondering myself. The man wants to give $1000 a month to every adult in a kind or wealth restructuring because corporations are sucking it all up and he has a very good point about almost 60% of the population is paycheck to paycheck. My neighbors have three kids and two decent jobs and she's been begging the use of my car because they have NO savings and NO credit and her van died. The older kids will both be driving age by next year and they can't afford them to drive.

I think $1000 bucks a month is never going to work, but unfortunately...people like my neighbors are the rule rather the exception these days. Several of my kids friends won't be driving until 18 or later. Just keeping a vehicle running is crazy crazy expensive. We've spent $60k on vehicles ourselves in 10 years, with the four accidents....Sure we got a about half that back from insurance, but it's been a struggle for us to keep up with repairs.

My kiddo should be getting her license in the next couple months and her friends are jealous. I think that's odd. It doesn't help driver's ed isn't taught IN school anymore.

I feel bad for Millennials. They really are going to have the worst financial time since the 20's.

Didn't Millennials just vote for destroying jobs in the Midterm Elections? They vote to wreck the Economy and destroy jobs, they get to reap the benefits - they being the most deserving.
This is why I don't feel bad for them being the cause of their own prophecy.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 1:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You don't follow Homosexual Politicians?
Gay, female, male, black, straight, old, yellow, brown, young, white ... I don't give a fuck. People who pay attention to that sort of stuff deserve what they get.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 1:45 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

You don't follow Homosexual Politicians?
Gay, female, male, black, straight, old, yellow, brown, young, white ... I don't give a fuck. People who pay attention to that sort of stuff deserve what they get.

Identity politics require that you adhere to only one subset of celebritydom.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 3:55 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

This is why I don't feel bad for them being the cause of their own prophecy.



Really?? You don't think the older generations have a hand or twelve in making conditions like these??

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6916417/Minnesota-farmers-tea
rful-video-shares-industry-troubles.html


In the last month I've seen stores closing EVERYWHERE, Fred's, Sears, Target, Victoria's Secret, Macy's, JCPenny's, Bed Bath and Beyond... they have no money to spend ANYWHERE.

Between stores closing, low profitability in many lines of work, automation, student loans that aren't worth a damn, overpriced housing and vehicles and healthcare, NO chance at retiring, high cancer rates... they are screwed and it's all our fault.



The young don't always do the intelligent thing, but I can safely say the old have DEFINITELY done the dumb thing over and over and over.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 5:03 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hmm... interesting list.Just OOC, of the people that you listed as "not seeing it/ not this time" it's because you think they won't get the votes, correct? Why do you supposed that is?



Like I said: "Sometimes the problem isn't the candidates, it's the dumb @ss voters. I harp about consumers being as big a part of the problems with commerce & markets & good & services - same deal."

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 5:09 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
OK, I looked him up. Here's what I found out about him:

He's the youngest mayor of a city over 100,000. (South Bend, Indianna)
He served in the naval reserves for seven months, separated from the military and came out as gay
Smart enough to get a Rhodes scholarship (just like Bill Clinton)
Reversed the population decline of South Bend
Appeals to millenials, likes Instagram
Wants to raise the minimum wage and is for Medicare for all

That leaves a lot of unknowns:
How did he reverse the population decline of South Bend? Did he attract more jobs? If so, what kind?
What does he think about military spending, and our endless wars abroad?
What does he think about the budget deficit, our infrastructural decay, and manufacturing deficit?
Climate change?
How does he intend to pay for "Medicare for all", and preserve jobs if the minimum wage increase causes loss of jobs?
Immigration?




You should read the article I linked:

https://www.wired.com/story/pete-buttigieg-revived-south-bend-with-tec
h-up-next-america
/

It answers some of those questions and gives a more in depth look at his recent actions as gov.

I only half care about answers to some of those other questions - it's easy for candidates to read polls and see what the popular thing is to say about any issue, just like it's easy for political partys to write popular, great sounding platforms. Can they pull it off? Lots of guessing. He has a history of success and achievement. That's enough for him to get one star from me.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 5:14 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Anyway...

Buttigieg continues to impress me, but that doesn't always mean he'd make a good president, or that he'd beat Dump. Good article here:



I just don't see it happening. I step out the front door and ask myself how many of these people would vote for a gay man and the answer is a resounding "not enough."

And of the ones that wouldn't mind if he's gay and vote for him, how many wanna watch guys be gay on TV for four years?? Even less.

The plus side, I would look forward to an era of good decorating



Totally on all points! "There's "butt" in his name, ha ha ha!" This country just proved they're about as unsophisticated and backwards as can be, so yeah, I have little faith he would ever come close to winning the nomination, or be taken seriously by his party. Just like with Hillary - they want to win, so that might even mean leaning toward one candidate over another (with the ultimate best intentions of course), and I bet they see him as an incredible long shot (lost cause).
In terms of just being capable to do a fair an honest job and accomplish so many of the things I want to see done, he's up there.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 5:27 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why the "nah" for Yang, CC?




Wondering myself. The man wants to give $1000 a month to every adult in a kind or wealth restructuring because corporations are sucking it all up and he has a very good point about almost 60% of the population is paycheck to paycheck. My neighbors have three kids and two decent jobs and she's been begging the use of my car because they have NO savings and NO credit and her van died. The older kids will both be driving age by next year and they can't afford them to drive.

I think $1000 bucks a month is never going to work, but unfortunately...people like my neighbors are the rule rather the exception these days. Several of my kids friends won't be driving until 18 or later. Just keeping a vehicle running is crazy crazy expensive. We've spent $60k on vehicles ourselves in 10 years, with the four accidents....Sure we got a about half that back from insurance, but it's been a struggle for us to keep up with repairs.

My kiddo should be getting her license in the next couple months and her friends are jealous. I think that's odd. It doesn't help driver's ed isn't taught IN school anymore.

I feel bad for Millennials. They really are going to have the worst financial time since the 20's.



Seems there are 2 questions in this discussion/thread: who am I backing and who do I think will be the next dem presidential candidate? In this case the answer for me for Yang is both, "no." I thought he was rather unimpressive when I've seen him interviewed. Sure, he's a smart guy with some decent ideas, but I just don't see him getting the votes even with $1000 a month bribery/promise. His connection to silicon valley? I see that as being easily spun into a negative in a general election.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 7:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I thought he was rather unimpressive when I've seen him interviewed.
Why? Too low key? Scattered? Unable to formulate a resonating sound bite? Too wonkish? Too nervous? Too enthusiastic over small ideas?

Quote:

Sure, he's a smart guy with some decent ideas, but I just don't see him getting the votes even with $1000 a month bribery/promise.
Again, why? Is it a personality thing? A skin color thing? A policy thing?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 7:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The South Bend story is a like I thought: Attract tech and make the city a nicer place to live. Pittsburgh took the same path. However, it's not a path that the entire nation can follow.

Quote:

In Washington, he knows, none of that applies, and as president he’d face much more consequential decisions than how people pay their water bills. There, gridlock is now built into the system. As a result, he says he wants to change some of the fundamental processes of national politics and policy: Ditch the electoral college, do away with the Senate filibuster, and redesign the system for appointing Supreme Court justices.

He talks about investing in artificial intelligence and other technologies so that the US can compete with China and other countries, easing the transition to a new economy by insisting on portable health benefits, and taking a look at Universal Basic Income.

But he also points to the emotional toll of job loss. “You can’t just match up one job to another based on the demand in the labor market,” he said. “You gotta know whether it aligns with someone’s sense of who they are. So the idea that someone who was a machinist will succeed as a nurse’s aide, it’s not necessarily relevant to how he sees himself.” And if they can’t find a new identity in work, family, faith, or community, more nefarious substitutes—drug addiction, white nationalism—will slip in.

The problem is that IMHO our real solutions don't always "pencil out" in the short run. It's not easy to revive a city, but it's certainly easier to revive one city than a thousand, since each city will be competing for the same (limited) jobs.

I get that Buttigieg probably doesn't imagine that he can apply the same solutions to the USA as he did to South Bend, but that he wants to take the same "approach" (data-driven, collaborative) to USA problems. However, I think he underestimates the resistance of powerful interests who like things just the way they are, and fails to understand that being President will sometimes necessarily be a blood sport. Consensus is great, but sometimes you need to be able to fight, and fight hard. So if he's not capable of that, he needs people on his team who are. Also, I personally think that solving our problems will require a PHILOSOPHICAL change. People focus too much on efficiency within the system, whereas I think we need to focus on systemic change which is not maximally efficient (and shouldn't be).

So, interesting, thanks for the link, I learned a lot. But unless I read otherwise I think his scope is too small.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 7:44 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why the "nah" for Yang, CC?




Wondering myself. The man wants to give $1000 a month to every adult in a kind or wealth restructuring because corporations are sucking it all up and he has a very good point about almost 60% of the population is paycheck to paycheck. My neighbors have three kids and two decent jobs and she's been begging the use of my car because they have NO savings and NO credit and her van died. The older kids will both be driving age by next year and they can't afford them to drive.

I think $1000 bucks a month is never going to work, but unfortunately...people like my neighbors are the rule rather the exception these days. Several of my kids friends won't be driving until 18 or later. Just keeping a vehicle running is crazy crazy expensive. We've spent $60k on vehicles ourselves in 10 years, with the four accidents....Sure we got a about half that back from insurance, but it's been a struggle for us to keep up with repairs.

My kiddo should be getting her license in the next couple months and her friends are jealous. I think that's odd. It doesn't help driver's ed isn't taught IN school anymore.

I feel bad for Millennials. They really are going to have the worst financial time since the 20's.



They don't teach drivers ed in school anymore??? Jeez.

I know millennials get a bad rap. I've worked what most would consider shitty dead-end jobs long enough now to know that they're probably just like any other generation though. Most are going to be moderately competent and have some drive, some are going to be lazy as shit and/or stupid, and a rare few have what it takes on the inside and the outside to really succeed.

Unfortunately, they're getting out into a job market that is absolutely abysmal compared to when I started in the late 90's. I do feel for them. It sucks.



I like what Yang has to say. I already said months ago that I'm voting Democrat in the primaries, even though I'm going to vote for Trump in the General. Right now, Yang has my primary vote.

If it comes to pass that Yang might actually have a chance, it's possible that I would vote for him in the general. That's a long way from now though, and I'm not going to be giving that much thought for a long time.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 12:03 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
This is why I don't feel bad for them being the cause of their own prophecy.


Really?? You don't think the older generations have a hand or twelve in making conditions like these??

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6916417/Minnesota-farmers-tea
rful-video-shares-industry-troubles.html


In the last month I've seen stores closing EVERYWHERE, Fred's, Sears, Target, Victoria's Secret, Macy's, JCPenny's, Bed Bath and Beyond... they have no money to spend ANYWHERE.

Between stores closing, low profitability in many lines of work, automation, student loans that aren't worth a damn, overpriced housing and vehicles and healthcare, NO chance at retiring, high cancer rates... they are screwed and it's all our fault.



The young don't always do the intelligent thing, but I can safely say the old have DEFINITELY done the dumb thing over and over and over.

The older demographic has always been a stable factor: how they vote, what they vote for or against, how often they vote, how consistently they can find those mysterious poll booths.
The young are the tipping point. The Rock-The-Vote in 2006 was a celebration. They did it again in 2018.

But the most important thing is that they can still find cash to pay exorbitant prices for the latest handheld media. Who needs cars, homes, jobs? That's all extraneous.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 12:33 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The older demographic has always been a stable factor: how they vote, what they vote for or against, how often they vote, how consistently they can find those mysterious poll booths.

But the most important thing is that they can still find cash to pay exorbitant prices for the latest handheld media. Who needs cars, homes, jobs? That's all extraneous.



That's more of a trope than a reality. Ask a millennial for you to see their phone, you will find half of them have cracked screens, because they don't want to deal or can't afford a new phone. When my kid was in school there were only a couple that had an I-phone, most everyone here has a Walmart phone, and when everything you do requires one....

It's how they get jobs and talk to family and it's how they entertain and inform. If it's only ONE thing that does all that, as annoying as it is, I wouldn't begrudge them.


The problem with "the older demographics" IS that they haven't changed but the way the economy works -the way society works- has completely.
They still want business as usual and are too blind to see the roof is caving in and the foundation is washing away. Boomers need to wake up and see this isn't the 80's anymore. The next 20 years are going to be a painful time of experimentation or a painful time of stagnation, either way.




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Saturday, April 13, 2019 12:44 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
His connection to silicon valley? I see that as being easily spun into a negative in a general election.



Booker is the kid of two of the first black IBM execs, just if you didn't know.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/02/cory-bookers-mom-dad-parents/

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 1:07 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:


They don't teach drivers ed in school anymore??? Jeez.



No. We had a choice of signing her up for a driving course for $350 where they come to your house and pick them up (and any learners near you) for an hour 5 times and then take driving test, or another licensed driver can fill in a time log sheet until they hit 50 hours of driving instruction and take a driving test. We are doing the latter, and I'm glad of the option because my kid has a distance/spacing perceptual issue that has taken a lot of work to fix. Has almost hit a light pole half a dozen times and drove over several curbs on the passenger side because she has a hard time adjusting from sitting in the passenger seat.


The test to get a permit is seriously harder than anything we did, she spent three months studying, and a lot of kids around here have taken it and failed. When we went to pick out a small truck for her to eventually drive to work or classes (almost non-existant to find a small truck used, btw), the guy at the dealership said his son failed it twice and at 17 still doesn't have a permit and doesn't seem to care to at this point.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 1:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I like what Yang has to say. I already said months ago that I'm voting Democrat in the primaries, even though I'm going to vote for Trump in the General. Right now, Yang has my primary vote.

If it comes to pass that Yang might actually have a chance, it's possible that I would vote for him in the general. That's a long way from now though, and I'm not going to be giving that much thought for a long time.

I get that you like what Yang has to say about UBI, but - like with Buttigieg - I have questions! I hope you can point me in the direction of answers.

How does he feel about multi-lateral "free trade" deals that are decided in secret corporate-run trade tribunals?

How does he feel about our endless wars and "regime change" operations? The military/security budget?

What about illegal immigration? Is he one of these nutty Silicon Valley people who welcome/think we can accommodate an endless flood of illegal migrants?

About UBI: Is it expenditure neutral? In other words .... if you take all of the $$ spent on various forms of welfare ... housing subsidies, food stamps, welfare, assistance to the severely disabled ... and lump it all into one sum, would that pay for UBI? Or would more $$ be needed? And, if more $$ is needed, where will it come from? Would UBI eliminate EIC? How would UBI interact with tax breaks for the poor? With state and county aid (which is partially paid for by the Federal government)? Would it be available to the non-citizen? Would retirees receiving Social Security also get UBI? Since this UBI is aimed at adults, what would this do to assistance SPECIFICALLY AIMED AT CHILDREN AND THE DISABLED (though Social Security) and the homeless (who seem to need help above and beyond more money)?

I like the idea of UBI. When one of our nannies ran into financial difficulty, I looked into various forms of assistance for her, but there were SO MANY agencies involved (the city, county, state, and Federal government, schools, county health etc) so many kinds of assistance (direct cash, housing subsidies, food stamps, assisted housing, money for children and families but not adults), so many hoops to jump thru (oddly, aid seems to be more generous for the illegal migrant than for the citizen) that the bean-counting and bureaucratic jumble just seems so difficult to navigate and it's such a fucking waste of time and money that anything would be preferable to what we have now. But I would really like to hear how this would be implemented in more detail.

Very much the same with Medicare for All. When I think about ALL of the money going into medical care ... Medicare, employer-paid premiums, privately-paid premiums, county and state medical assistance, etc etc and I think about the welter of charges, premiums, bean-counting, restrictions, etc etc constructed by the "health insurances" I wonder if Medicare for All might actually be cheaper if paid for by a universal payer (saving the roughly 20% of overhead and profits currently skimmed off by insurances and the roughly 5% spent by hospitals and other provider billing services). But there would have to be a few changes made to Medicare for All: It would have to negotiate better Rx prices (currently prohibited by Medicare Part D) and it would have to scale payments to the cost of living in each region. Also, there would have to be some cost controls and outcome measures ... for example, in one city in Texas, 50% of the ER services went to five or six homeless people who would routinely use the ER as a warm place to stay and to treat their chronic medical conditions which constantly were getting out of hand due to their homelessness and lack of regular care ... so people were showing up in diabetic coma for example, or with diabetic gangrene. So there would have to be special provisions for the homeless, mentally ill and addicted because otherwise they will be a giant money-suck.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 4:21 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:


How does he feel about multi-lateral "free trade" deals that are decided in secret corporate-run trade tribunals?

How does he feel about our endless wars and "regime change" operations? The military/security budget?

What about illegal immigration? Is he one of these nutty Silicon Valley people who welcome/think we can accommodate an endless flood of illegal migrants?




You know you could google this shit faster than it took to write all that post out, right???

But then, you wouldn't get to remind everyone about your obsessive agendas... AGAIN...








I'll give Yang points for effort. Hipster points.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6919089/Democratic-candidate-
Andrew-Yang-plans-use-3D-HOLOGRAM-campaign.html


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Saturday, April 13, 2019 7:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Gee WISHY, what's YOUR obsessive agenda? Constantly attacking people? At least I'm on topic, and trying to have a discussion. That's why I'm asking SIX what he knows. Maybe he'll add an idea or two about how he thinks this could or should work.

Jeez, you're such a byatch.

Seriously, have you ever LISTENED to yourself? Harping on and on about why you're so much better than everyone else?

Don't be surprised if I really do just ignore you from now on.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 8:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

About UBI: Is it expenditure neutral? In other words .... if you take all of the $$ spent on various forms of welfare ... housing subsidies, food stamps, welfare, assistance to the severely disabled ... and lump it all into one sum, would that pay for UBI? Or would more $$ be needed? And, if more $$ is needed, where will it come from? Would UBI eliminate EIC? How would UBI interact with tax breaks for the poor? With state and county aid (which is partially paid for by the Federal government)? Would it be available to the non-citizen? Would retirees receiving Social Security also get UBI? Since this UBI is aimed at adults, what would this do to assistance SPECIFICALLY AIMED AT CHILDREN AND THE DISABLED (though Social Security) and the homeless (who seem to need help above and beyond more money)?



It's supposed to be expenditure neutral. Show me a candidate promising anything that is exactly what it's said to be though.

UBI would eliminate EIC. Bad news for single mothers with 3 kids, I suppose, but it's still more than the EIC benefits they'd get. Having 3 kids was their choice, and that's how they'll be spending their UBI.

This is one of the things that I like about UBI. It provides a safety net for everyone who needs it, but it is also given to everyone at the same time. Jeff Bezos would even get it. It's a reward to those who make smart decisions, while still being enough to live on for the completely destitute. What you need to be taking into consideration here as well is that you can still work any job you want, making as much as you can make without being penalized (unlike every form of welfare out there today).

Would more money be needed if all of the other safety nets were eliminated? Honestly, I don't know. I haven't seen figures on that or researched it. In 2010, $58 Billion went out for EIC payments. Hardly a dent in the roughly $3 Trillion per year that would be required for a $1,000/mo. UBI for every adult in America.


You bring up some good questions about SSI and SSDI. I don't know the answer to any of them. $1,000/mo. would be more than my brother gets in SSDI, but when combined with his food stamps, it would be less.

First thing I would do is put strong caps on SSI payments for the elderly who don't need it. There's not much that enrages me more than retirees refering to their SSI payments as "casino money". It's one of the big reason's that you'll start hearing the term "boomers" being used as an insult, particularly among milennials.

I would say that if you have under a certain amount of other income and net value, then you either get SSI or just your UBI which would be guaranteed to everyone.



There would be a LOT of things to work out to make sure this worked properly. I just think it would be a lot easier to maintain and update when there is a single system out there for everyone, with maybe a satellite or two for extreme cases such as disabled people who have nobody to care for them.


Oh... and making a rule that the UBI was guaranteed to go up with inflation from the very beginning is a must. We don't need to make the same mistake we did with the minimum wage twice.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 10:01 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


In terms of healthcare I would support government-run single payer full healthcare (including vision, dental, catastrophic and long-term) for all. In the short-term it really would NOT save money, simply because there are still 10% of Americans who aren't covered at all, an unknown population of people with long-term conditions being somewhat managed at home by relatives, and at least 25% of people who are under-insured --- and that leads to a backlog of demand.

But the layers on layers of administrative overhead, the profit cut at every step, and the fact that the US doesn't negotiate drug prices, have lead to extraordinarily expensive yet still deficient health care in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expend
iture_per_capita

wiki 2016 per capita
US 9892
Can 4753

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u
-s-compare-countries/#item-average-wealthy-countries-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends

HST 2017 percent GDP total (public / private)
US 17.3 (8.5 / 8.8)
Can 10.5 (7.4 / 3.1)


A better, more comprehensive, government system would lift the burden from nearly every American (with the exception of the very small percentage who are so wealthy they can pay for every problem themselves). It would halt those chronic healthcare-driven losses from the economy, and allow that work to go somewhere more productive.

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Saturday, April 13, 2019 10:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
About UBI: Is it expenditure neutral? In other words .... if you take all of the $$ spent on various forms of welfare ... housing subsidies, food stamps, welfare, assistance to the severely disabled ... and lump it all into one sum, would that pay for UBI? Or would more $$ be needed? And, if more $$ is needed, where will it come from? Would UBI eliminate EIC? How would UBI interact with tax breaks for the poor? With state and county aid (which is partially paid for by the Federal government)? Would it be available to the non-citizen? Would retirees receiving Social Security also get UBI? Since this UBI is aimed at adults, what would this do to assistance SPECIFICALLY AIMED AT CHILDREN AND THE DISABLED (though Social Security) and the homeless (who seem to need help above and beyond more money)?


It's supposed to be expenditure neutral. Show me a candidate promising anything that is exactly what it's said to be though.

UBI would eliminate EIC. Bad news for single mothers with 3 kids, I suppose, but it's still more than the EIC benefits they'd get. Having 3 kids was their choice, and that's how they'll be spending their UBI.

This is one of the things that I like about UBI. It provides a safety net for everyone who needs it, but it is also given to everyone at the same time. Jeff Bezos would even get it. It's a reward to those who make smart decisions, while still being enough to live on for the completely destitute. What you need to be taking into consideration here as well is that you can still work any job you want, making as much as you can make without being penalized (unlike every form of welfare out there today).

Would more money be needed if all of the other safety nets were eliminated? Honestly, I don't know. I haven't seen figures on that or researched it. In 2010, $58 Billion went out for EIC payments. Hardly a dent in the roughly $3 Trillion per year that would be required for a $1,000/mo. UBI for every adult in America.


You bring up some good questions about SSI and SSDI. I don't know the answer to any of them. $1,000/mo. would be more than my brother gets in SSDI, but when combined with his food stamps, it would be less.

First thing I would do is put strong caps on SSI payments for the elderly who don't need it. There's not much that enrages me more than retirees refering to their SSI payments as "casino money". It's one of the big reason's that you'll start hearing the term "boomers" being used as an insult, particularly among milennials.

I would say that if you have under a certain amount of other income and net value, then you either get SSI or just your UBI which would be guaranteed to everyone.



There would be a LOT of things to work out to make sure this worked properly. I just think it would be a lot easier to maintain and update when there is a single system out there for everyone, with maybe a satellite or two for extreme cases such as disabled people who have nobody to care for them.


Oh... and making a rule that the UBI was guaranteed to go up with inflation from the very beginning is a must. We don't need to make the same mistake we did with the minimum wage twice.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Current Civilian noninstitutional Population over age 18 is a little under 249 million. So $1,000 per totals less than $249 Billion per month. About $2.88 Trillion per year. Eliminating $58 B of EIC leaves less than $2.82 T of new spending. So the 150 million Employed will only need to have an average $19,000 additionally confiscated per year - meaning taxes. Or $1,580 per month.

Great Ponzi plan. Almost as good as Social Security.

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 4:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Federal welfare programs include Medicaid, and totals out to $754 billion.
https://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-budget.html
If Medicaid costs are xferred to Medicare for All, then the "welfare" costs would be significantly less than $754 billion. All of that to say that there is no way that UBI will be expenditure neutral. That money has to come from somewhere. Either taxes must be raised or cuts made somewhere else or the government will go borrow (even more) money from the Fed and pay interest on it.

The current total budget is about $4 trillion dollars. At about $2.8 trillion, the UBI program would consume almost 3/4 of the entire Federal budget, including Medicare, Social Security, and Defense spending. What happenes to Medicare for All? Social Security?


----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 5:09 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"cuts made somewhere else" military

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"cuts made somewhere else" military



Absolute truth here.

Yang wants to reduce military spending 200 Billion, but that wouldn't be enough, and I'm not sure where he got that number.

There's another 68 Billion in food stamps.

How much is Social Security? I can't seem to find what the yearly payouts for that is. Quite a bit of that could be rolled into UBI quite easily, I would think. Some thought would have to go into a sliding scale to decide who would get more than the $1,000 per month of UBI based on need.

There should also be no cap on Social Security and Medicare. If the plan is to tax the Uber Rich more, the first place to start would be making every dime you make taxable to SSI/Medicaid. Also make certain that after a lower amount of capitol gains have been acquired, the rest would be subject to a SSI/UBI/Medicare tax as well. (This tax would have to be high enough as to not hurt middle-class investors, and would go a long way to sustaining UBI/SSI and healthcare costs).

Of course, all of these numbers would need to be adjusted for inflation every year, or else we're just starting more bubbles we don't need.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:27 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
I think I'm going with Booker.

I saw a clip of him on Ellen, he's articulate and seems like he knows how to act. He helped balance the budget in Newark for the first time in a decade. Rethugs will like that he's pro-gun and pro-enforcing gun laws we already have. Isn't threatened by LGBTQ. If he marries Rosario Dawson he'll have the geek parade eating out of his hands. Oh, and he'd like a woman VP, so that's a great first step on that front too.

Plus being black would piss off Trump, so that could only be a postive.



Too soon to pick one for me wish. Not to soon to start looking and talking about who's running though.

T



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Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:33 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


If anyone says they like UBI but ONLY if it's a no questions asked check in the mail every month, then I know they're just in it for the free money. And that's a concern. I like the idea of helping the poor and those that are so close to their ceiling every month, but giving people cash - as great as it sounds and as much as I'd like a bonus citizen check every month - that just leads to bad things. If you could instead get a utility/rent/food credit every month, I'd be more interested. I know that's no fun, but if you're really out to help people make life better and not tempt their weaker, darker natures, then that's the best way to go.

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 12:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SIX and all ... the link that I posted contains all of the rough figures that you're looking for

https://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-budget.html

It lists all of the components of Federal "welfare" ...

Negative income tax (EIC)
SNAP (food stamps)
Housing assistance (section 8)
SSI
Pell Grants
TANF
Medicaid
.... plus a bunch more programs and their budgeted amounts, the TOTAL of which is $754 billion


It also lists the largest categories which make up the Federal budget

Defense
Social Security and Medicare
Welafre including Medicaid
"all other"

And THEIR total amounts, which comes to about 4 trillion. If you want to talk rough numbers, I think this is a god place to start.





Even if you were to decimate almost the entire Federal budget, it doesn't leave much left over after UBI ($2.6 trillion), especially if you want to implement Medicare for All.

Now, you MIGHT argue that UBI would be duplicative of parts of Social Security (you could reduce Social Security payouts by $1000/month), in round numbers about 60 million people receive Social Security benefits of one sort or another (retirement, disability, survivors) https://retiredamericans.org/social-security-medicare-current-facts-fi
gures-2016
/ which would save about $720 billion. But that would be a huge ripoff of the Social Security budget, which has an independent revenue stream and should never have been included in the Federal budget in the first place (Thanks Lyndon Johnson).

So ...

Total current budget $4 billion
Total proposed UBI payouts $2.6 trillion
Current total welfare budget $0.7 trillion
Potential reductions in Social Security applied to UBI $0.7 trillion
Elimination of half of military spending applied to UBI $0.4 trillion

So far, I have identified $1.8 trillion dollars of possible revenue sources in the current budget, which still leaves alomst a $1 trillion shortfall.

OK, I personally think that UBI as proposed just won't work. I like the simplicity, I think we should simplify our welfare system and make monthly benefits available, but not to everyone, just to adults who fall below a certain income level. I don't think the payouts should vary across the nation according to living costs, and here's my reason why: People should be able to move to areas where living costs are lower and get maximal benefit from the money. Also, I still think that there should be separate benefits for the homeless, mentally ill, addicted, and mentally disabled, for whom "more money" is not the answer.

If I had to choose, I think Medicare for All is a better choice of expenditures, because there is both an actual benefit (healthier people, money which will mostly not flee the USA) and potential long-term cost savings (reduce the current 18% of GDP spent on healthcare to something more like the 10% that most developed nations spend).




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:00 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
If you could instead get a utility/rent/food credit every month, I'd be more interested. I know that's no fun, but if you're really out to help people make life better and not tempt their weaker, darker natures, then that's the best way to go.



Stop being practical, that will never go over in this country

Hubbs and I were talking about that last night. You give 100 people money........

12 will squirrel it away under a mattress for later, 15 will pay a bill, 8 will use it for a vacation, 7 will donate it or a part of it to charity or church, 2 people will ignore it completely, 14 people will give it to a child or spouse or relative, 7 people will buy an appliance or tech, 10 people will invest it somewhere, 18 people will spend it online, and say 7 people will go out and get drunk or buy drugs of some kind.

That could mean that 90% of people are doing something constructive with it, but the 10 percent of people who don't are the ones wreaking all sorts of destruction.


How do you avoid that? Easy, don't give anyone cash.

What about good citizen merits, like that Black Mirror episode?

Pay your taxes every year, get merits. Raise a child to the age of 18 without them going to jail? Get merits. Pay off a mortgage, get merits. Vote, get merits. Use high efficiency appliances or solar, get merits. Get a checkup, go to the dentist, ect... There are a surprising number of things the government already keeps track of, combined with things that are tracked as a patient or consumer.

Then we use your credit idea for food or utilities.

Game of Life, real style.


Oooh, even better, get caught working the system, lose merit making for a year or twelve or permanently.

Self promoting, self regulating.

And people on disability could get standard number of merits, and merits could be donated if you don't want or use them.

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I don't like all of that government intrusion. maybe YOU want to control everyone, WISHY, but I don't.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:20 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I don't like all of that government intrusion. maybe YOU want to control everyone, WISHY, but I don't.




Yer dense if you think they don't ALREADY do that.

Also, this could be a voluntary system. Don't like it, pay your own way.

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Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I don't like all of that government intrusion. maybe YOU want to control everyone, WISHY, but I don't.




Yer dense if you think they don't ALREADY do that.

Also, this could be a voluntary system. Don't like it, pay your own way.

Yes, they already try to control people, which is how we got this finely-divided scattershot ineeficient/ ineffective approach to aid in the first place. But that just leads into the law of unintended consequences ... like the original welfare system, which disallowed aid if there was "a man" around. The aid workers would go snooping into people's homes looking for a toothbrush that didn't belong. All that did was break up families.

The most successful aid is food stamps. But a similar approch .. housing aid ... hs only made some slumlords extremely wealthy but made it impossible for "section 8" housing recipients to find housing in neighborhoods that aren't infested with gangs.

I've alread said that the mentally ill, intellectually disabled and addicted (oh, and children) need a different kind of assistance. Beyond that, I'm not about to go trying to minutely control every aspect of everyone's life. CHINA does that, it's called their "social credit" system.

Just give people money and let them make their choices.

****
But if there was a real job at a living wage for everyone who wanted to work ... we wouldn't need this aid. If you want a reprise of my REAL obssessive agenda ... the goverment needs to reform the financial system and the economy to make "aid" less necessary. This discussion of welfare is NOT my agenda.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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