REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Can you prioritize?

POSTED BY: WISHIMAY
UPDATED: Sunday, July 21, 2019 22:46
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VIEWED: 824
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Thursday, July 11, 2019 5:32 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


On the same note as my last thread, what DO you see as the number one threat to humanity, and the number one threat to the health of humankind, as it stands... TODAY?

HINT: It's probably NOT war, anti-biotics, or even climate change.


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Thursday, July 11, 2019 5:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


us

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Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Third Wave Feminism.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:51 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

what do you see as the number one threat to humanity


That's tough, so many dire threats. Top 5 are

1. Soccer
2. Cell phones
3. AOC
4. Microwave pancakes
5. TIE: Asteroid collision / Stool samples sent in the mail

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Friday, July 12, 2019 12:17 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
us



DING DING DING. Kiki gets a cookie.

6ix gets...dumber by the day.

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Friday, July 12, 2019 12:23 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:



4. Microwave pancakes



That's only because you aren't smart enough to butter them first.

Even better, nuke them and put a layer of cream cheese and apple butter and a sprinkle of cinnamon on them and then roll them up and eat them like a cannoli.

It'll make you touch yourself inappropriately.

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Friday, July 12, 2019 9:06 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
On the same note as my last thread, what DO you see as the number one threat to humanity, and the number one threat to the health of humankind, as it stands... TODAY?

HINT: It's probably NOT war, anti-biotics, or even climate change.




Death

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Friday, July 12, 2019 9:26 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:
Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
On the same note as my last thread, what DO you see as the number one threat to humanity, and the number one threat to the health of humankind, as it stands... TODAY?

HINT: It's probably NOT war, anti-biotics, or even climate change.




Death




lol

I've changed my mind.

THIS is the post of the week right here.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 12, 2019 11:11 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by captaincrunch:


Death





Not likely to be a change in that any time soon. You might actually get there faster with my pancake recipe though

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Friday, July 12, 2019 11:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
On the same note as my last thread, what DO you see as the number one threat to humanity, and the number one threat to the health of humankind, as it stands... TODAY?

HINT: It's probably NOT war, anti-biotics, or even climate change.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
us

HOWEVER - it's not all of us, all of the time, driving the problem. It's not even most of us. Or even a fair chunk of some of us. It's a very few of us.

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Saturday, July 13, 2019 12:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Every time someone uses a generic term ... "people", "us", "we", "Americans" I think of the comic phrase put into Tonto's mouth ...

LONE RANGER: Tonto, we need to distract the bad guy!
TONTO: What mean this "we", kimo sabe?




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, July 13, 2019 6:13 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

HOWEVER - it's not all of us, all of the time, driving the problem. It's not even most of us. Or even a fair chunk of some of us. It's a very few of us.




Ok, that's just plain delusional. Every day every one of us does something stupid to help kill the planet or ourselves. You really believe "MOST" people recycle? You think "most" people that go to the beach care if the sunscreen is killing the ocean? Spend much time protesting the shit they poison our food supply with? DO you keep track of the toxic byproducts from the production of EVERYTHING you buy???? Leave a light on for an hour when you aren't in the room? Have you SEEN the amount of shit that comes with having a child??

We are ALL driving the problems. Whether you only do one of these things or ten of these things a day is irrelevant.


This planet is going to die because we are too stupid NOT to kill it.

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Saturday, July 13, 2019 6:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

HOWEVER - it's not all of us, all of the time, driving the problem. It's not even most of us. Or even a fair chunk of some of us. It's a very few of us.

Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Ok, that's just plain delusional.

Name-calling. SO persuasive! Not.
Quote:

Every day every one of us does something stupid to help kill the planet or ourselves. You really believe "MOST" people recycle?
Do I believe 'MOST' people have the opportunity short of driving to the recycling center? Do I believe 'MOST' people have a choice if their food comes in plastic? Do I believe 'MOST' people have a place to take their left-over paint? left-over meds? left-over food? broken electronics? Am I nuts? The answer is - no.
Quote:

You think "most" people that go to the beach care if the sunscreen is killing the ocean?
Do I believe people control what sunscreen's available in the store?
Quote:

Spend much time protesting the shit they poison our food supply with?
And where, pray tell, do they protest? Who do they protest to?
Quote:

DO you keep track of the toxic byproducts from the production of EVERYTHING you buy????
I'm aware of it - but - like everyone else on the planet, I have little choice. The ONLY place I had a choice was decades ago, at the North Buffalo Food Co-op (of which I was a member) where you could take your glass jars and bottles, and paper bags, and have them pre-weighed, so you could fill them with the product of your choice. Today, if I want to buy meat, I don't have a choice if I want it on a Styrofoam tray covered with plastic. If I want the meat, I have to buy the packaging. If I want the peanut butter, I have to buy the plastic jar. If I want the frozen blueberries, I have to buy the plastic bag. If I buy shampoo, I have to be exposed to anti-fungal 'azoles'. If I want organic, I have to pay prices that are out of reach of most people. If I want a receipt, I have to be exposed to PFOAs. *I* didn't make the choices so that those things are the way they are.

You LIKE to think *YOU* know what's up, but *YOU* fail to ask yourself basic questions. For example, *WHO* made those decisions about what will be manufactured, sold, used, and dumped*?

Because *I* know *I* didn't decide that since 1950 tons of a combination of 80,000 synthetic chemicals should be released into the environment every year.

Was it *YOU* who decided all of that? Do we blame *YOU*?
Quote:

and more pointless blah blah blah
FIFY
Quote:

This planet is going to die because we are too stupid NOT to kill it.

And how is the majority of *US* going to be represented in this supposed democracy? What is our government going to do about it? Yanno, the people - especially democrats - who tell us they have our best interests at heart and are our champions?


*Every single Superfund toxic site - from the early Hudson River GE PCB dump (1947 - 1977) and Love Canal (1940s) sites and forward - are due to manufacturing and industrial companies that *US* - you, me, the citizenry - had nothing to do with.


And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Saturday, July 13, 2019 7:45 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Well, Wishy... Given your outline and 100% unwinnable situation you've laid out before us, it seems that the only truly responsible way to handle the situation is to stop breathing.

I'll let you get from A to B there, since there seems to be no telling what the courts would decide in the wake.

My actual recommendation to you would be to get psychiatric help fast.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, July 15, 2019 2:25 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well, Wishy... Given your outline and 100% unwinnable situation you've laid out before us, it seems that the only truly responsible way to handle the situation is to stop breathing.

I'll let you get from A to B there, since there seems to be no telling what the courts would decide in the wake.

My actual recommendation to you would be to get psychiatric help fast.



Ok, sure, I'll stop breathing...why don't you go first though? I'll catch up

I'm the rational realistic one here to say that the actions of 8 billion people are an un-tameable force that is so far past our ability to ever hope to control or contain and *I'm* crazy... for stating the obvious???

Whoo boy are ye dense. Like a concrete building block. Nadda damn thing in there.


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Monday, July 15, 2019 2:32 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

I'm aware of it - but - like everyone else on the planet, I have little choice. . *I* didn't make the choices so that those things are the way they are.

You LIKE to think *YOU* know what's up, but *YOU* fail to ask yourself basic questions. For example, *WHO* made those decisions about what will be manufactured, sold, used, and dumped*?

Because *I* know *I* didn't decide that since 1950 tons of a combination of 80,000 synthetic chemicals should be released into the environment every year.


And how is the majority of *US* going to be represented in this supposed democracy? What is our government going to do about it? Yanno, the people - especially democrats - who tell us they have our best interests at heart and are our champions?


*Every single Superfund toxic site - from the early Hudson River GE PCB dump (1947 - 1977) and Love Canal (1940s) sites and forward - are due to manufacturing and industrial companies that *US* - you, me, the citizenry - had nothing to do with.





All that chatter just to agree with me about the hopelessness of the situation because we DON'T have a choice. ALL OF US do the wrong thing. Due to lack of choice or because we're mindless idiots MAKES NOT A DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE.


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Monday, July 15, 2019 4:31 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You just argued yourself into being wrong.

I'll let you figure out how.




And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Monday, July 15, 2019 1:21 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
You just argued yourself into being wrong.

I'll let you figure out how.





Ok, sure. Great argument

L.O.L.

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Monday, July 15, 2019 1:53 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well, Wishy... Given your outline and 100% unwinnable situation you've laid out before us, it seems that the only truly responsible way to handle the situation is to stop breathing.

I'll let you get from A to B there, since there seems to be no telling what the courts would decide in the wake.

My actual recommendation to you would be to get psychiatric help fast.



Ok, sure, I'll stop breathing...why don't you go first though? I'll catch up

I'm the rational realistic one here to say that the actions of 8 billion people are an un-tameable force that is so far past our ability to ever hope to control or contain and *I'm* crazy... for stating the obvious???

Whoo boy are ye dense. Like a concrete building block. Nadda damn thing in there.




I actually don't argue with your assessment of the situation or for the dire implications of those "un-tameable" actions.

I, however, refuse to dwell on it. Most days, I don't give the thought a single moment of my time. I don't think that you should either. Marcos has gone out of his way to call me a sociopath because I refuse to do so. I disagree. Such a constant line of thinking is unproductive at best, and psychologically and emotionally crippling at worst.

As you've been arguing both here and the other thread, there's not a single goddamned thing in the world that you can do about any of it. Even if you wanted to, you'd have to get over 7 1/2 billion other people on board and doing the right thing every single day. It's a fool's errand, and you're going to drive yourself insane.

And even if you chose to stop breathing right now, it's already too late for you. You've passed on your genes, and as I've argued in other threads in the past, your children are exponentially your largest possible carbon footprint on the planet.

I actually hesitated before posting that last sentence there...

Sometimes I worry about your mental well being, Wishy. Please don't let these things you have no control over drive you crazy. I certainly don't want to see you actually do something to stop breathing, and I'd never want to find out that you made that choice for other people as well on the day that you finally snap.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, July 16, 2019 12:46 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:


As you've been arguing both here and the other thread, there's not a single goddamned thing in the world that you can do about any of it.


Sometimes I worry about your mental well being, Wishy.




Genius, you are arguing exactly what I'VE BEEN ARGUING. You just restated it like you came up with it.

And...LOLOLOLOLOL. Nut who can't be decent enough and non-narcissistic enough in a day to live with another person thinks *I'M* mental. You keep telling yourself that I'm the problem, sugar. Keeps you from looking in the mirror.

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Tuesday, July 16, 2019 1:01 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Not arguing with you, dipshit.

I've also been saying the exact same thing here for years, so no, you're not original.

Seriously though. When you do finally snap, please have the decency to only take yourself out and leave your husband and daughter alone.



And yes. You're a complete nut job. And you weren't even considerate enough of others to become a spinster cat lady and decided to burden everybody else with your wonderful self everyday.

What a great lady.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, July 16, 2019 2:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
HOWEVER - it's not all of us, all of the time, driving the problem. It's not even most of us. Or even a fair chunk of some of us. It's a very few of us.

Now here you claim it's about stupidity.
Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
This planet is going to die because we are too stupid NOT to kill it.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
(And here I argue it's lack of agency by the vast majority, because the choices were made by a very few without us.)

And here you have to CHANGE your argument because your original one didn't stand up.
Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Due to lack of choice or because we're mindless idiots MAKES NOT A DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE.

You do that a lot. Change your notions when they fail. You're a lot like Trump. Now that you've lost, why don't you just put your hands up in the air and declare yourself a winner.

Oh, you already did that.
Quote:

All that chatter just to agree with me
And for the record, I said nothing about it being hopeless. WE do have the ability to change course if we - the majority - seize the initiative. Whether we do or not is a question, but it's not beyond possibility.

You have deep problems with reality, honesty, and ego.




And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Tuesday, July 16, 2019 10:28 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
WISHIMAY:
Due to lack of choice or because we're mindless idiots MAKES NOT A DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE.

And for the record, I said nothing about it being hopeless. WE do have the ability to change course if we - the majority - seize the initiative. Whether we do or not is a question, but it's not beyond possibility.

You have deep problems with reality, honesty, and ego.





BAHAHHHAHAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

You think "the majority" are going to put the planet on some kind of environmental protection lockdown and that *I* have problems with reality.
Hah hah hah hah hah hah hah. Hah. hah hahah.



If someone buys a bottle of water, and if there's an absence of trash cans throws the bottle on the ground, how does it make a single iota of difference to the environment if someone does the same thing just to be an ass????????????

Result is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bottle on ground. Duh.

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Tuesday, July 16, 2019 10:44 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Anybody who buys a bottle of water that doesn't live in a place like Flint, Michigan or somewhere else that the water is unsafe or at least absolutely unpalatable IS the problem.

They might as well just throw the bottle wherever they feel like it with the damage they've already caused by voting yes to bottled water with their wallets.

[If you don't hear from me tomorrow, it's because I've had an "accident" in the middle of the night brought to you by Coca-Cola or PepsiCo.]



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 12:15 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
And for the record, I said nothing about it being hopeless. WE do have the ability to change course if we - the majority - seize the initiative. Whether we do or not is a question, but it's not beyond possibility.

You have deep problems with reality, honesty, and ego.

Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:


BAHAHHHAHAA... (whatever)

You think "the majority" are going to put the planet on some kind of environmental protection lockdown and that *I* have problems with reality.
Hah hah hah hah hah hah hah. Hah. hah hahah.



If someone buys a bottle of water, and if there's an absence of trash cans throws the bottle on the ground, how does it make a single iota of difference to the environment if someone does the same thing just to be an ass????????????

Result is still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bottle on ground. Duh.

Way to strawman (lie) AGAIN, honey. I said nothing about putting the planet on some kind of 'environmental lockdown' (whatever that is. Maybe you could explain your concept to me).

That was YOUR idea.

So all that laughing? Yeah, you're laughing at yourself.




And if democrats don't do anything different, how are they any better?
tic tac

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 12:23 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Anybody who buys a bottle of water that doesn't live in a place like Flint, Michigan or somewhere else that the water is unsafe or at least absolutely unpalatable IS the problem.

They might as well just throw the bottle wherever they feel like it with the damage they've already caused by voting yes to bottled water with their wallets.

[If you don't hear from me tomorrow, it's because I've had an "accident" in the middle of the night brought to you by Coca-Cola or PepsiCo.]



Do Right, Be Right. :)

You know, sometime people buy bottled water for portability, so they can drink something of known quality* when they're not at home. (*Though the perception that bottled water is cleaner and safer is not necessarily true.) It's not always about yuppies drinking 'status' water out of entitlement.

Solve the portability problem with something people can make at home, that won't build up a biofilm on re-use, and you've solved a lot of the bottled water problem. But the biggest part of the problem is the plastic. Mandate that plastics have to be environmentally safe and you've got the plastic problem fixed.

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 1:20 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
You know, sometime people buy bottled water for portability, so they can drink something of known quality* when they're not at home. (*Though the perception that bottled water is cleaner and safer is not necessarily true.) It's not always about yuppies drinking 'status' water out of entitlement.

Solve the portability problem with something people can make at home, that won't build up a biofilm on re-use, and you've solved a lot of the bottled water problem. But the biggest part of the problem is the plastic. Mandate that plastics have to be environmentally safe and you've got the plastic problem fixed.



Well, for sure anybody who buys FIJI is a douche without any arguments whatsoever...

But that entitlement aspect is not what I'm talking about here.

We don't need mandates or taxes either, although like anything else the taxes probably would curb the behavior. There's currently a $0.10/per bottle "deposit" for plastic bottles in the entire city of Chicago. I LOVE the term "deposit" here because it's a blatant lie and there is nowhere you can go to turn these in to get your dime back anywhere. It's a straight up tax that they're not calling a tax. But that means if you buy a 35 pack of water, you're paying an extra $3.50 in taxes if you buy it in the city of Chicago.

There's plenty of ways to take water on the go. There has been since plastic was invented, and arguably before that when glass was still all the rage.

People are lazy though. They're willing to pay the price of water that's no different than the water out of their tap because they can't be bothered to clean a bottle and fill it up on their way out the door.

Entitlement or laziness, it makes no matter to the environment.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 2:13 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
You know, sometime people buy bottled water for portability, so they can drink something of known quality* when they're not at home. (*Though the perception that bottled water is cleaner and safer is not necessarily true.) It's not always about yuppies drinking 'status' water out of entitlement.
Solve the portability problem with something people can make at home, that won't build up a biofilm on re-use, and you've solved a lot of the bottled water problem. But the biggest part of the problem is the plastic. Mandate that plastics have to be environmentally safe and you've got the plastic problem fixed.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well, for sure anybody who buys FIJI is a douche without any arguments whatsoever...
But that entitlement aspect is not what I'm talking about here.
We don't need mandates or taxes either, although like anything else the taxes probably would curb the behavior. There's currently a $0.10/per bottle "deposit" for plastic bottles in the entire city of Chicago. I LOVE the term "deposit" here because it's a blatant lie and there is nowhere you can go to turn these in to get your dime back anywhere. It's a straight up tax that they're not calling a tax. But that means if you buy a 35 pack of water, you're paying an extra $3.50 in taxes if you buy it in the city of Chicago.

That's a problem not due to individuals, either.
The deposit is a lazy government gesture born of the need to dress it up in a 'capitalism self-interest' camouflage to not fight the fight they need to engage in.
Quote:

There's plenty of ways to take water on the go.
Such as?
Quote:

There has been since plastic was invented, and arguably before that when glass was still all the rage.
People are lazy though. They're willing to pay the price of water that's no different than the water out of their tap because they can't be bothered to clean a bottle and fill it up on their way out the door.

Entitlement or laziness, it makes no matter to the environment.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

You know, I grew up before there was plastic. Except for bulky, fragile glass-lined thermos bottles of VERY limited quantity, there was no personal, portable anything to drink, anywhere. What did we do? Really, just suffered. I remember being a small kid in the county park in summer and being so thirsty I was ready to throw up. That's just the way things were.

I also don't recommend reusing plastic bottles for TOO long, as they build up a biofilm and shed plastic molecules due to the bottle being physically flexed.

But Jack, it's not just about plastic water bottles - and I HOPE you understand that.

I could give you whole long lists of things (continuing what I started, above) where I - as a consumer - have literally no choice at all. None. Zero. Zip.

What container choice do I have for my milk? ... beef, pork, turkey, chicken, onions, potatoes, carrots, celery, blueberries, spinach, juice, broth ... and so on. For my shampoo, tp rolls (bundled in plastic) ... and so on.
For my detergent, dish detergent, stain treat, bleach ... and so on.

As a mobile person where there is no bus service ... what choice do I have except to drive a car? ... and so on.

And so on.


Please try to address the totality.




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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 3:04 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I'm not trying to solve all the world's problems.

I'm just talking about bottled water, specifically.

Unless somebody lives in an area where perfectly fine tap water isn't available for free, I don't think there is any excuse for buying water that comes in plastic bottles.


I look at it from the perspective that anywhere I've ever lived in my life not only is safe and clean water available everywhere, but you can find water fountains that offer it for free and you can eat at any restaurant and skip the high priced soda and get a free glass of ice water.

That's a rather fortunate situation I was born into there, given that in many places in the world there is a shortage of clean drinkable water that won't make you sick. The idea that anybody living in places like this would buy store brand plastic bottled water, let alone pay 3 bucks for a 20 ounce bottle of FIJI water is ludicrous to me.

It's not just from my perspective of paying money for stupid shit you don't need at play here. It's lazy and it's selfish. Unless you're out running a marathon in Flint Michigan, there's almost no excuse good enough to justify the environmental impact of drinking water out of a bottle in one of these areas since you're not liable to die of dehydration in between the perilous trek between a kitchen faucet and a water fountain.

Trying to compare this to putting petrol in your gas tank is beyond apples and oranges.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 4:31 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.




Well, I do disagree with keeping this at plastic water bottles, because they're just a small fraction of the whole system of forced consumption.

But to continue the discussion about bottled water:

Let me parse though this.

"not only is safe and clean water available everywhere"

Generally, outside (unless you're in your own yard and can just pop into the house) there's no free water. I can't generally think of outdoors places with water. Out on the sidewalks in the suburbs? On the streets in the city? In a park or rural area? The only outdoor place that I can think of that had free water was Toronto, where there were free water fountains on the sidewalks every few blocks. And I don't consider having to buy a meal to pay for the water to be free water. And I can't imagine anyone walking into a restaurant and getting just water for free without ordering anything. (BTW, as a completely useless aside, here in SoCal when you go to a restaurant you have to ASK for water, you don't get it automatically. It's supposed to keep people mindful of drought.)

Schools, workplaces, hospitals etc generally have places you can get drinking water, but they're not open to the general public.

I suppose you might ask to use a gas station bathroom and drink out of the tap. Also, libraries are open to the public and probably have water fountains.

So I can think of a few places outside in public where one might get free water, but not many.


I personally don't know for a fact what most people do at school and work. I imagine most kids choose to buy and drink soda at school, rather than carry a plastic water bottle from home. At work, I belonged to a water club where we all chipped in to get those big carboys of water because the tap water had gone through a softener and had a lot of sodium in it.

Who buys bottled water, and why ... Aside from people exercising or working outdoors, or working out of their cars all day, and of course people with toxic or foul-smelling water (blue-green algae makes a terrible smell when mixed with chlorine), I can't imagine who would be buying bottled water. Maybe you can tell me? Why do people buy bottled water for reasons other than potability and portability?

Which gets us to the plastic bottle. Maybe people ARE too lazy to clean those suckers out and reuse them. But I can attest that a week of reuse is enough to build up a poop-smelling biofilm. Sooner or later you're going to have to buy a new bottle. So you can reduce the problem of the plastic water bottle, but not eliminate it, not even with more effort.

Anyway, the main advantages of plastic bottles for water are capacity, weight, and durability.

So, in sum, as much as I hate to admit it, they solve a problem of being able to access water when you're out in public. And I think this is true, because I know what it was like to be without. There was no handy-dandy work-around.

But even with diligence, the bottles eventually need to be replaced. So one can reduce the problem of the plastic water bottle, but not eliminate it.

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:58 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I've never been to California. I heard it's great. Or at least it used to be, anyway.

You'd think with all of those taxes, you guys would have more water fountains.

We've got them everywhere. But then again, it occurs to me I live near the Great Lakes. Maybe we just water better than you do out West with that undrinkable ocean frontage.

I'm pretty sure that you have to ask for water at most restaurants around here now too... or at least they ask you about it before just bringing it out. I do remember as a kid they'd do that all the time. Hell... I remember as a kid I could ask for a glass of ice water at McDonalds and they'd give it to you for free. I seriously doubt they do that anymore.



I never said anything about reusing the plastic bottles I'm saying that most people shouldn't be buying in the first place. I'm talking about buying a bottle at a store that doesn't come with any beverage inside of it that is designed with plastics that are safe for reuse and are also easy to wash. You don't have those out in California either?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 12:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Water fountains EVERYWHERE?

Say you're a suburban jogger and you're jogging along suburban streets in Madison WI. Are there water fountains along the sidewalks? Say you're in Grant Park in Chicago, or Delaware Park in Buffalo. Are there water fountains out in those parks? How about if you're moseying along Rodeo drive to gawk at the sights. Are there water fountains out on the sidewalk? Or say you're driving out in the country, with farms and all. Are there fountains along the roads?

Come on Jack. Give me SPECIFIC examples of those water fountains EVERYWHERE.

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Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I didn't do much out around Milwaukee when I lived there.

Growing up in the south suburbs of Chicago there were parks littered everywhere for the kids and there was always at least 1 water fountain by them. Bike trails galore tied into quite a few of these where joggers would run and they had them. If you're going on a trip, all of the rest stops in Illionis have them.

But if you want, I won't argue that point any further since maybe I just grew up in Waterworld in the south suburbs of Chicago.


It still doesn't negate the fact that you can buy plastic sports bottles nearly anywhere for a few bucks that are completely safe to drink out of, are dishwasher safe, are easy to clean by hand, and can be reused a billion times. You can even easily add ice to them, which isn't so easy to do in store bought bottled water.

Many places actually have stricter government rules on the purity and filtration than the companies selling bottled water do. If you have a little funk taste in your water at home in any of these areas, it's most likely the old pipes you have in your house, and not any fault of the city or water reclamation department. A simple water filter attached to the kitchen sink takes care of that, easy peasy.

If we can't even agree that for at least 90% of Americans that purchase bottled water today that it's just as safe and almost as easy to have great tasting water on the go instead of being lazy and buying bottled water for the convenience, then how are we ever going to make any progress doing better as a species in the bigger picture?


https://sciencing.com/carbon-footprint-plastic-bottle-12307187.html

Quote:

There's more to a plastic water bottle than meets the eye. Knowing its environmental impact just might make a person think twice about grabbing bottled water from the grocery store shelf. The Pacific Institute, a nonprofit research organization, estimates that the energy used in the production and use of plastic bottles is equivalent to filling the bottles one-quarter full with oil. (Oil affects global warming by producing high quantities of greenhouse gases when it's burned.) Here's a deeper dive into the carbon footprint of a plastic water bottle.


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
But if you want, I won't argue that point any further since maybe I just grew up in Waterworld in the south suburbs of Chicago.

Being snide doesn't help your argument, Jack.
Quote:

It still doesn't negate the fact that you can buy plastic sports bottles nearly anywhere for a few bucks that are completely safe to drink out of, are dishwasher safe, are easy to clean by hand, and can be reused a billion times. You can even easily add ice to them, which isn't so easy to do in store bought bottled water.
You've solved the portability issue. What about potability?
Quote:

Many places actually have stricter government rules on the purity and filtration than the companies selling bottled water do.
I said the same thing myself - up above. HOWEVER ...
... These chemicals, bacteria, and viruses in tap water are not yet regulated, but are cause for concern:

Substance Name CASRN Use
1,1,1,2-Tetrachloroethane 630-20-6 It is an industrial chemical used in the production of other substances.
1,1-Dichloroethane 75-34-3 It is an industrial chemical used as a solvent.
1,2,3-Trichloropropane 96-18-4 It is an industrial chemical used in paint manufacture.
1,3-Butadiene 106-99-0 It is an industrial chemical used in rubber production.
1,3-Dinitrobenzene 99-65-0 It is an industrial chemical and is used in the production of other substances.
1,4-Dioxane 123-91-1 It is used as a solvent or solvent stabilizer in the manufacture and processing of paper, cotton, textile products, automotive coolant, cosmetics and shampoos.
17alpha-estradiol 57-91-0 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in pharmaceuticals.
1-Butanol 71-36-3 It is used in the production of other substances.
2-Methoxyethanol 109-86-4 It is used in consumer products, such as synthetic cosmetics, perfumes, fragrances, hair preparations, and skin lotions.
2-Propen-1-ol 107-18-6 It is used in the production of other substances, and in the manufacture of flavorings and perfumes.
3-Hydroxycarbofuran 16655-82-6 It is a carbamate and is a pesticide degradate. The parent, carbofuran, is used as an insecticide.
4,4'-Methylenedianiline 101-77-9 It is used in the production of other substances.
Acephate 30560-19-1 It is used as an insecticide.
Acetaldehyde 75-07-0 It is used in the production of other substances, and as a pesticide and food additive.
Acetamide 60-35-5 It is used as a solvent, solubilizer, plasticizer and stabilizer.
Acetochlor 34256-82-1 It is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Acetochlor ethanesulfonic acid (ESA) 187022-11-3 Acetochlor ESA is an acetanilide pesticide degradate. The parent, acetochlor, is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Acetochlor oxanilic acid (OA) 184992-44-4 Acetochlor OA is an acetanilide pesticide degradate. The parent, acetochlor, is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Acrolein 107-02-8 It is used as an aquatic herbicide, rodenticide and industrial chemical.
Alachlor ethanesulfonic acid (ESA) 142363-53-9 Alachlor ESA is an acetanilide pesticide degradate. The parent, alachlor, is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Alachlor oxanilic acid (OA) 171262-17-2 Alachlor OA is an acetanilide pesticide degradate. The parent, alachlor, is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
alpha-Hexachlorocyclohexane 319-84-6 It is a component of benzene hexachloride (BHC) and was formerly used as an insecticide.
Aniline 62-53-3 It is used as an industrial chemical, as a solvent, in the synthesis of explosives, rubber products and in isocyanates.
Bensulide 741-58-2 It is used as an herbicide.
Benzyl chloride 100-44-7 It is used in the production of other substances, such as plastics, dyes, lubricants, gasoline and pharmaceuticals.
Butylated hydroxyanisole 25013-16-5 It is used as a food additive (antioxidant).
Captan 133-06-2 It is used as a fungicide.
Chlorate 14866-68-3 Chlorate compounds are used in agriculture as defoliants or desiccants and may occur in drinking water related to use of disinfectants such as chlorine dioxide.
Chloromethane (Methyl chloride) 74-87-3 It is used as a foaming agent and in the production of other substances.
Clethodim 110429-62-4 It is used as an herbicide.
Cobalt 7440-48-4 It is a naturally-occurring element and was formerly used as cobaltus chloride in medicines and as a germicide.
Cumene hydroperoxide 80-15-9 It is used as an industrial chemical and is used in the production of other substances.
Cyanotoxins (3)* Toxins naturally produced and released by cyanobacteria ("blue-green algae"). Various studies suggest three cyanotoxins for consideration: Anatoxin-a, Microcystin-LR, and Cylindrospermopsin.
Dicrotophos 141-66-2 It is used as an insecticide.
Dimethipin 55290-64-7 It is used as an herbicide and plant growth regulator.
Dimethoate 60-51-5 It is used as an insecticide on field crops, (such as cotton), orchard crops, vegetable crops, in forestry and for residential purposes.
Disulfoton 298-04-4 It is used as an insecticide.
Diuron 330-54-1 It is used as an herbicide.
equilenin 517-09-9 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in pharmaceuticals.
equilin 474-86-2 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in pharmaceuticals.
Erythromycin 114-07-8 It is used in pharmaceutical formulations as an antibiotic.
Estradiol (17-beta estradiol) 50-28-2 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in pharmaceuticals.
estriol 50-27-1 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in veterinary pharmaceuticals.
estrone 53-16-7 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in veterinary and human pharmaceuticals.
Ethinyl Estradiol (17-alpha ethynyl estradiol) 57-63-6 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in veterinary and human pharmaceuticals.
Ethoprop 13194-48-4 It is used as an insecticide.
Ethylene glycol 107-21-1 It is used as an antifreeze, in textile manufacture and is a cancelled pesticide.
Ethylene oxide 75-21-8 It is used as a fungicidal and insecticidal fumigant.
Ethylene thiourea 96-45-7 It is used in the production of other substances, such as for vulcanizing polychloroprene (neoprene) and polyacrylate rubbers, and as a pesticide.
Fenamiphos 22224-92-6 It is used as an insecticide.
Formaldehyde 50-00-0 It has been used as a fungicide, may be a disinfection byproduct and can occur naturally.
Germanium 7440-56-4 It is a naturally-occurring element and is commonly used as germanium dioxide in phosphors, transistors and diodes, and in electroplating.
Halon 1011 (bromochloromethane) 74-97-5 It is used as a fire-extinguishing fluid and to suppress explosions, as well as a solvent in the manufacturing of pesticides. May also occur as a disinfection by-product in drinking water.
HCFC-22 75-45-6 It is used as a refrigerant, as a low-temperature solvent, and in fluorocarbon resins, especially in tetrafluoroethylene polymers.
Hexane 110-54-3 It is used as a solvent and is a naturally-occurring alkane.
Hydrazine 302-01-2 It is used in the production of other substances, such as rocket propellants, and as an oxygen and chlorine scavenging compound.
Mestranol 72-33-3 It is an estrogenic hormone and is used in veterinary and human pharmaceuticals.
Methamidophos 10265-92-6 It is used as an insecticide.
Methanol 67-56-1 It is used as an industrial solvent, a gasoline additive and also as anti-freeze.
Methyl bromide (Bromomethane) 74-83-9 It has been used as a fumigant as a fungicide.
Methyl tert-butyl ether 1634-04-4 It is used as an octane booster in gasoline, in the manufacture of isobutene and as an extraction solvent.
Metolachlor 51218-45-2 It is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Metolachlor ethanesulfonic acid (ESA) 171118-09-5 Metolachlor ESA is an acetanilide pesticide degradate. The parent, metolachlor, is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Metolachlor oxanilic acid (OA) 152019-73-3 Metolachlor OA is an acetanilide pesticide degradate. The parent, metolachlor, is used as an herbicide for weed control on agricultural crops.
Molinate 2212-67-1 It is used as an herbicide.
Molybdenum 7439-98-7 It is a naturally-occurring element and is commonly used as molybdenum trioxide as a chemical reagent.
Nitrobenzene 98-95-3 It is used in the production of aniline, and also as a solvent in the manufacture of paints, shoe polishes, floor polishes, metal polishes, explosives, dyes, pesticides and drugs (such as acetaminophen).
Nitroglycerin 55-63-0 It is used in pharmaceuticals, in the production of explosives, and in rocket propellants.
N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone 872-50-4 It is a solvent in the chemical industry, and is used for pesticide application and in food packaging materials.
N-nitrosodiethylamine (NDEA) 55-18-5 It is a nitrosamine used as an additive in gasoline and in lubricants, as an antioxidant, as a stabilizer in plastics and also may be a disinfection byproduct.
N-nitrosodimethylamine (NDMA) 62-75-9 It is a nitrosamine and has been formerly used in the production of rocket fuels, is used as an industrial solvent and an anti-oxidant, and also may be a disinfection byproduct.
N-nitroso-di-n-propylamine (NDPA) 621-64-7 It is a nitrosamine and may be a disinfection byproduct.
N-Nitrosodiphenylamine 86-30-6 It is a nitrosamine chemical reagent that is used as a rubber and polymer additive and may be a disinfection byproduct.
N-nitrosopyrrolidine (NPYR) 930-55-2 It is a nitrosamine used as a research chemical and may be a disinfection byproduct.
Norethindrone (19-Norethisterone) 68-22-4 It is a progresteronic hormone used in pharmaceuticals.
n-Propylbenzene 103-65-1 It is used in the manufacture of methylstyrene, in textile dyeing, and as a printing solvent, and is a constituent of asphalt and naptha.
o-Toluidine 95-53-4 It is used in the production of other substances, such as dyes, rubber, pharmaceuticals and pesticides.
Oxirane, methyl- 75-56-9 It is an industrial chemical used in the production of other substances.
Oxydemeton-methyl 301-12-2 It is used as an insecticide.
Oxyfluorfen 42874-03-3 It is used as an herbicide.
Perchlorate 14797-73-0 It is both a naturally occurring and human-made chemical. Perchlorate is used to manufacture fireworks, explosives, flares and rocket propellant.
Perfluorooctane sulfonic acid (PFOS) 1763-23-1 PFOS was used in fire fighting foams and various surfactant uses; few of which are still ongoing because no alternatives are available.
Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) 335-67-1 PFOA is used in the manufacture of fluoropolymers, substances which provide non-stick surfaces on cookware and waterproof, breathable membranes for clothing
Permethrin 52645-53-1 It is used as an insecticide.
Profenofos 41198-08-7 It is used as an insecticide and an acaricide.
Quinoline 91-22-5 It is used in the production of other substances, as a pharmaceutical (anti-malarial) and as a flavoring agent.
RDX (Hexahydro-1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5-triazine) 121-82-4 It is used as an explosive.
sec-Butylbenzene 135-98-8 It is used as a solvent for coating compositions, in organic synthesis, as a plasticizer and in surfactants.
Strontium 7440-24-6 It is naturally-occurring element and is used as strontium carbonate in pyrotechnics, in steel production, as a catalyst and as a lead scavenger.
Tebuconazole 107534-96-3 It is used as a fungicide.
Tebufenozide 112410-23-8 It is used as an insecticide.
Tellurium 13494-80-9 It is a naturally-occurring element and is commonly used as sodium tellurite in bacteriology and medicine.
Terbufos 13071-79-9 It is used as an insecticide.
Terbufos sulfone 56070-16-7 Terbufos sulfone is a phosphorodithioate pesticide degradate. The parent, terbufos, is used as an insecticide.
Thiodicarb 59669-26-0 It is used as an insecticide.
Thiophanate-methyl 23564-05-8 It is used as a fungicide.
Toluene diisocyanate 26471-62-5 It is used in the manufacture of plastics.
Tribufos 78-48-8 It is used as an insecticide and as a cotton defoliant.
Triethylamine 121-44-8 It is used in the production of other substances, as a stabilizer in herbicides and pesticides, in consumer products, in food additives, in photographic chemicals and in carpet cleaners.
Triphenyltin hydroxide (TPTH) 76-87-9 It is used as a pesticide.
Urethane 51-79-6 It is used as a paint ingredient.
Vanadium 7440-62-2 It is a naturally-occurring element and is commonly used as vanadium pentoxide in the production of other substances and as a catalyst.
Vinclozolin 50471-44-8 It is used as a fungicide.
Ziram 137-30-4 It is used as a fungicide.
Microbial Contaminants
Microbial Contaminant Name Information
Adenovirus Virus most commonly causing respiratory illness, and occasionally gastrointestinal illness
Caliciviruses Virus (includes Norovirus) causing mild self-limiting gastrointestinal illness
Campylobacter jejuni Bacterium causing mild self-limiting gastroentestinal illness
Enterovirus Group of viruses including polioviruses, coxsackieviruses and echoviruses that can cause mild respiratory illness
Escherichia coli (0157) Toxin-producing bacterium causing gastrointestinal illness and kidney failure
Helicobacter pylori Bacterium sometimes found in the environment capable of colonizing human gut that can cause ulcers and cancer
Hepatitis A virus Virus that causes a liver disease and jaundice
Legionella pneumophila Bacterium found in the environment including hot water systems causing lung diseases when inhaled
Mycobacterium avium Bacterium causing lung infection in those with underlying lung disease, and disseminated infection in the severly immunocompromised
Naegleria fowleri Protozoan parasite found in shallow, warm surface and ground water causing primary amebic meningoencephalitis
Salmonella enterica Bacterium causing mild self-limiting gastrointestinal illness
Shigella sonnei Bacterium causing mild self-limiting gastrointestinal illness and bloody diarrhea


Quote:

If you have a little funk taste in your water at home in any of these areas, it's most likely the old pipes you have in your house ...
And this is not true.

https://www.weather.gov/cle/HABabout
Lake Erie Harmful Algal Bloom: About
As algae in a cyanobacterial (blue-green algae) bloom die, the water may smell bad. All blue-green algae, or cyanobacteria, can produce skin irritants under certain conditions, and some can produce multiple types of the more harmful toxins.
https://www.dispatch.com/article/20140510/NEWS/305109946
Algae update: Fixing bad-tasting drinking water already expensive
https://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/01/25/algae-in-dri
nking-water-a-concern.html

Algae in drinking water a concern
Some water-treatment plant operators along western Lake Erie, where harmful algae blooms are a threat to the drinking water, think there should be state or federal guidelines for detecting the algae inside their plants.
Without any guidelines on how to remove the toxins, plant operators have come up with their own strategies. “There is no set way to remove this. We’re all experimenting with the processes we have,” Frey said. “We’re all fearful of the threat this has if it gets through and into our public water supply.”
https://www.usgs.gov/centers/kswsc/science/cyanobacterial-blue-green-a
lgal-blooms-tastes-odors-and-toxins-0?qt-science_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects

Cyanobacterial (Blue-Green Algal) Blooms: Tastes, Odors, and Toxins
Cyanobacterial toxins (cyanotoxins) have been implicated in human and animal illness and death in over fifty countries worldwide, including at least 35 U.S. States. Human toxicoses associated with cyanotoxins have most commonly occurred after exposure through drinking water or recreational activities.
Severe taste-and-odor episodes in Cheney Reservoir, a key drinking water supply for the city of Wichita, Kansas, during the early 1990’s prompted water-quality studies to identify and mitigate potential causes.
http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/home/Portals/0/Files/Water%20Quality/habs
.pdf

Harmful Algal Blooms in the Great Lakes - What they are and how they can affect your
health
Blue-green algae can produce a wide array of neurotoxins, liver toxins (hepatotoxins), cell toxins, and skin irritants. Neurotoxins include anatoxin-a, anatoxin-a(s) and saxitoxin, and are commonly produced by the Anabaena and Oscillatoria species. Consumption of large amounts of these toxins by animals or humans can result in muscle cramps, twitching, paralysis and cardiac or respiratory failure. Hepatotoxins include microcystin and cylindrospermopsin, and are produced by the Microcystis and Cylindrospermopsis species. These toxins produce symptoms including nausea, vomiting and acute liver failure. Dermatotoxins include aplysiatoxin, lyngbiatoxin-a and lipopolysaccharides. Nearly all blue-green algae produce dermatotoxins. These toxins produce symptoms including skin irritation, rashes, and gastrointestinal distress.
https://www.wateronline.com/doc/blue-green-algae-causes-foul-smelling-
tap-water-in-houston-0001

Blue-Green Algae Causes Foul-Smelling Tap Water In Houston
https://www.lakescientist.com/musty-smell-might-indicate-toxicity-new-
cyanobacteria-study-shows
/
Musty smell might indicate toxicity, new cyanobacteria study shows
While it is estimated most blooms are toxic, it is difficult to predict exactly when or even if a bloom is producing toxins.
Quote:

A simple water filter attached to the kitchen sink takes care of that, easy peasy.
Wrong again!
https://www.epa.gov/water-research/harmful-algal-blooms-drinking-water
-treatment

Toxins from harmful algal blooms (HABs) are increasingly contaminating sources waters, as well as the drinking water treatment facilities that the source waters supply. These treatment facilities face a difficult task of not only removing the toxins, but doing so in a safe and cost-effective way.
https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/managing-cyanotoxi
ns-public-drinking-water-systems

Conventional water treatment (consisting of coagulation, sedimentation, filtration, and chlorination) can generally remove intact cyanobacterial cells and low levels of cyanotoxins from source waters. However, water systems may face challenges in providing drinking water during a severe bloom event when there are high levels of cyanobacteria and cyanotoxins in source waters. (eg toxic blooms in Lake Erie such as the 2014 and when Toledo told its residents not to drink or touch the tap water, and 2017 when a severe bloom made the water 'funky)
https://www.crcpress.com/Harmful-Algae-Blooms-in-Drinking-Water-Remova
l-of-Cyanobacterial-Cells/Walker/p/book/9781138749450

Mitigating the increasing presence of HABs presents a major challenge to water managers and drinking water utilities across the world. Although conventional treatment processes can be effective for the removal of HAB cells and some HAB toxins under optimal conditions, the potential exists for significant breakthrough of toxins during normal operation.
Quote:

If we can't even agree that for at least 90% of Americans that purchase bottled water today that it's just as safe and almost as easy to have great tasting water on the go instead of being lazy and buying bottled water for the convenience, then how are we ever going to make any progress doing better as a species in the bigger picture?
Because I don't agree.
I drink bottled water* in summer for this reason: during winter the local water supply is mostly drawn from local wells and surface waters, which are only somewhat contaminated. But during the summer when local wells can't keep up with demand, the water company draws significantly from the Colorado River aqueduct, a highly contaminated water source. And it shows in the water quality coming out of the tap.
https://www.gswater.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Water-Quality-2018-
San-Dimas.pdf


People are allowed to choose water that's not funky, or salty, or contaminated.
Quote:

https://sciencing.com/carbon-footprint-plastic-bottle-12307187.html

There's more to a plastic water bottle than meets the eye. Knowing its environmental impact just might make a person think twice about grabbing bottled water from the grocery store shelf. The Pacific Institute, a nonprofit research organization, estimates that the energy used in the production and use of plastic bottles is equivalent to filling the bottles one-quarter full with oil. (Oil affects global warming by producing high quantities of greenhouse gases when it's burned.) Here's a deeper dive into the carbon footprint of a plastic water bottle.


You know, blaming people for not wanting to drink weird water is counter-productive. Whether or not it is better (and it could be) bottled water tastes better.
If the way we're producing plastic now is so bad, why not make it a different way, out of different things, like plant polymers?
The answer is: IT'S CHEAPER TO DO WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW, AND BUSINESS IS RUNNING THE SHOW. THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN MAKING THINGS BETTER, THEY'RE INTERESTED IN MAKING THEM MORE CHEAPLY.

Anyway, I need to get to bed.

*But I get my water in glass, since I'm not trying to carry it around. The glass is recyclable, and I do recycle it, but even if it escapes into the wild, it'll break down into sand.

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 10:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Well... I figured with how forcefully you were defending those that drink bottled water, I was pretty sure that you did yourself and weren't just arguing on their behalf.

I'm willing to let it lie right now. We've made progress at least. Portability is not an issue. It never was, at least in my lifetime, so it's not something that I "solved". We're simply on the same page that anybody who does it because they're too lazy to put it in a washable bottle is part of the problem. They're voting with their wallet that the status quo is just fine by them.

If you actually have legitimate cause for concern that your local water is contaminated, then you safely fall in the minority of people in America that have valid health concerns about what's in their water.

Quote:

That said, there are many ares in the United States that don’t have access to safe tap water, Gleick says. So it’s important to do your own research and ensure that what you’re drinking is safe. The quality of the tap you get at home could also have to do with your plumbing. “A city could deliver perfectly safe and tasty water to your house, but if your water tank is corroded, your PCV pipes are crumbling, or you have lead or copper fixtures, your water may not be healthy to drink,” Rotye says.


But at the end of the day, only 30% of plastic water bottles get recycled. The rest end up in landfills or incinerated or in our lakes and rivers. Pulling it up, treating it and then transporting it around the world leaves such a large carbon footprint that you can fill 1/4 of that water bottle in your hand with oil and that's how much was used to get it in your hands. It also can cost up to 2,000 times more to buy it than tap water. More than half of bottled water IS tap water. Unlike municipalities, the big corporations that make bottled water are not required to release their testing results to the public (why is that, I wonder?)



I'm not going to agree with you that the corporations here are culpable for how the bottles are made. The people have spoken. They have voted with their wallet, and any concerns they pretend to have about the environmental impact of their choices have been negated by those very same choices. They're happily willing to pay an absolutely ridiculous amount for water that's free out of their tap. Then, 70% of them don't even bother to recycle the bottles when they're done because as lazy as they already were they can't even fucking be bothered to do that.




.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 10:47 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


It's a conundrum for sure. Plastic is fine IF:

- it's recycled
- it's manufactured to the highest safety standards
- it's filled with high quality, safe drinking water

My tap? I don't trust it. I have a whole house filter but it's pretty basic. Our toilet bowls show mold/fungus within a couple days. We've tried Brita pitchers, and they're also ok, but you have to keep up with the filters etc. On occasion the water will even smell off, moldy. We'll call the city and they'll just pitch more *something* in the system and say all good.
So my drinking water is from 1 gallon plastic containers which we recycle (at least the city makes that easy). I don't care if it costs .89 a gallon - it's WATER - kind of critical stuff.

You could always get one of these:

https://www.livelarq.com

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 1:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


The plastic itself is fine if you meet all of those specs. (Which we don't by a long shot since right off the bat 70% of water bottles don't get recycled).

But you've still got to consider all of the gasoline that is used every single day to transport this water too. Unlike local systems that reclaim the water then just put it right back into the system where the pressure is always on and the only thing necessary to transport it into your cup is turning on a faucet, that water people drink out of a bottle might have been shipped via truck 1,000 miles before it reaches its final destination.

I'm not saying that nobody should drink it. But people should be more mindful of the impact they make when they do before making that decision. ESPECIALLY those who can't shut up about the environment out of the other side of their mouths. People need to question if it's simply a matter of taste or whether or not there is a legitimate health concern if they drink out of the tap. It doesn't just magically show up on the store shelves.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 1:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
one stupidity after another ad hominem after another strawman

fify

Jack, you have not a single FACT to back up your reply.

Dispute the facts or STFU.

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 1:58 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


BTW drinking water treatment plants are energy hogs.
And no place in the US is 'recycling' its sewage directly into drinking water.

https://www.epa.gov/sustainable-water-infrastructure/energy-efficiency
-water-utilities


For many municipal governments, drinking water and wastewater plants typically are the largest energy consumers, often accounting for 30 to 40 percent of total energy consumed. Overall, drinking water and wastewater systems account for approximately 2 percent of energy use in the United States, adding over 45 million tons of greenhouse gases annually.

As much as 40 percent of operating costs for drinking water systems can be for energy.

https://www3.epa.gov/region9/water/recycling/

Although most water recycling projects have been developed to meet nonpotable water demands, a number of projects use recycled water indirectly for potable purposes. These projects include recharging ground water aquifers and augmenting surface water reservoirs with recycled water.

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
one stupidity after another ad hominem after another strawman

fify

Jack, you have not a single FACT to back up your reply.

Dispute the facts or STFU.



Google it.

Half of what I said were in links I already posted too.


Feel free to bring up any specific points that you don't agree with, but I will strike them down when you do.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:54 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
The plastic itself is fine if you meet all of those specs. (Which we don't by a long shot since right off the bat 70% of water bottles don't get recycled).

But you've still got to consider all of the gasoline that is used every single day to transport this water too. Unlike local systems that reclaim the water then just put it right back into the system where the pressure is always on and the only thing necessary to transport it into your cup is turning on a faucet, that water people drink out of a bottle might have been shipped via truck 1,000 miles before it reaches its final destination.

I'm not saying that nobody should drink it. But people should be more mindful of the impact they make when they do before making that decision. ESPECIALLY those who can't shut up about the environment out of the other side of their mouths. People need to question if it's simply a matter of taste or whether or not there is a legitimate health concern if they drink out of the tap. It doesn't just magically show up on the store shelves.




Meh - how much does it cost to ship all those cigs around the country and treat lung cancer & heart disease?

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 4:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


That's a different argument. If you want to go down that path we could talk about every single thing that every single person buys and enjoys but isn't necessary for sustenance.

We're talking about water that is essentially free and safe to drink, yet people out of laziness pay up to 2,000 times the price at a much greater cost to the environment. Something that is already readily available to them by flipping a faucet and not even needing to leave their own house.

Besides. It's impossible for anybody to grow a crop of tobacco for themselves in their backyards. It would be as stupid as trying to grow your own potatoes, which nobody does, BTW. Google it.


You two are really trying hard to justify your behavior here and deflect from the issue at hand, aren't you?




I'll just finish this argument by saying that I won't even discuss or debate any issues involving the environment with anybody who justifies bottled water outside of places like Flint Michigan. You have no right to bitch about anything.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 6:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Whatever. It's called denying facts.

BTW - I'm sorry your ego is too fragile to debate FACTS with a FEMALE who might actually know more than you.


Lol.

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Thursday, July 18, 2019 8:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, this is significantly off-topic, but I thought I'd post some info on drinking water. Is it tasty? Is it even safe?

Below I listed the organic chemical, mineral, and biological contaminants for which the EPA has set basic drinking-water safety limits. Some you might recognize directly like 'Roundup', or lead, or indirectly like hexChrome (Erin Brockovich). Most you've probably not heard of.

Almost none of the organic contaminants are found in nature. When it comes to minerals, of course they're found in nature (we're not making many commonly found artificial elements yet!), so the questions are -do they come naturally in the water supply, or were they introduced through environmental contamination or the drinking water system; and -how should they be mitigated?

Here are the drinking water CHEMICAL contaminants for which the EPA sets limits:

Acrylamide, Alachlor, Atrazine, Benzene, Benzo(a)pyrene (PAHs), Carbofuran, Carbon tetrachloride, Chlordane, Chlorobenzene, 2,4-D, Dalapon, 1,2-Dibromo-3-chloropropane (DBCP), o/p-Dichlorobenzene, 1,2-Dichloroethane, 1,1-Dichloroethylene, cis-1,2-Dichloroethylene, trans-1,2-Dichloroethylene, Dichloromethane, 1,2-dichloropropane,
Di(2-ethylhexyl) adipate, Di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate, Dinoseb, Dioxin (2,3,7,8-TCDD), Diquat, Endothall, Endrin, Epichlorohydrin, Ethylbenzene, Ethylene dibromide,
Glyphosate (Roundup), Heptachlor, Heptachlor epoxide, Hexachlorobenzene, Hexachlorocyclopentadiene, Lindane, Methoxychlor, Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), Pentachlorophenol, Picloram, Simazine, Styrene, Tetrachloroethylene, Toluene, Toxaphene, 2,4,5-TP (Silvex), 1,2,4-Trichlorobenzene, 1,1,1-Trichloroethane, 1,1,2-Trichloroethane, Trichloroethylene, Vinyl chloride, Xylenes (total)

Here are the MINERAL contaminates for which the EPA sets limits:

Antimony, Arsenic, Asbestos, Barium, Beryllium, Cadmium, Copper, Cyanide (as free cyanide), Fluoride, Lead, Mercury (inorganic), Nitrate (measured as Nitrogen), Nitrite (measured as Nitrogen), Selenium, Thallium

In addition the EPA looks for microorganisms, disinfectants, disinfection byproducts, and radionuclides.

THE QUESTION IS - are these 'good' protective lists, or 'bad' moth-eaten lists ... or both?

First of all I give credit that there are limits at all. Some/ many/ most of the obvious, major problems have been looked at, depending on your pov.




To look at it more specifically, I decided to dig into particulars. And so as not to be constantly referencing my local area, I picked a city literally at random, Tampa - a place I have never been to or looked at, and that I know nothing about - and pulled up their water quality report.

https://www.tampagov.net/sites/default/files/water/files/wwqr2018.1.pd
f

"This report is a requirement of the Safe Drinking Water Act Amendments of 1996. It provides details about the laboratory testing we do to ensure that Tampa enjoys high quality drinking water. In 2018, the City of Tampa’s tap water continued to meet or exceed all state and federal water quality standards."

Minerals
Antimony, Arsenic, Barium, Cadmium, Fluoride, Nitrate (as Nitrogen), Sodium, Thallium
Organic contaminants
Total organic carbon

and Turbidity, Microbiological Contaminants, Radioactive Contaminants, and Disinfectants and Disinfection By-Products and Disinfection By-Products.

I'm going to take their word for it that they actually tested for all the things the EPA says you need to test for, even if they reported almost none of them specifically.




What are the things water suppliers DON'T test for?

For one thing they don't test for blue-green algae toxins.

The algaes 'bloom' in warm, nutrient-rich water such as around the Great Lakes, and in other states. 20 states are known to have blue-green algae blooms.

The tip-off to blue-green algae in your water is a funky smell/taste that comes out of your tap, and there's some indication that that funk is specifically associated with the toxic varieties.

Even though these toxins have caused massive fish die-offs in drinking water sources, and have caused KNOWN animal AND HUMAN deaths (humans may be killed by skin exposure to contaminated water like wading or swimming, by ingestion like drinking contaminated water and eating contaminated fish, and by inhaling airborne droplets), the EPA has not set exposure limits.

That leaves drinking water facilities struggling to deduce what levels of what toxins are acceptable, and to pay for the massively expensive method to filter them out (activated charcoal). In 2014 the residents of Toledo were told not to drink, cook with, or even touch their tap water due to massive contamination.

If you have funky water in summer, it may be good to drink bottled water.

IMO THIS IS A MAJOR DEFICIENCY IN THE EPA'S DRINKING WATER STANDARDS LIST.




There is also a long, LONG list I printed out above of compounds, minerals, biologicals (bacteria, viruses, protozoa), etc that are on the EPA's 'to be finalized' list. I can't possibly address them all.

So I invite you all / challenge you all (depending on your POV) to pick one each for me to look at. However, I will say those things on list are definitely concerning, and your water provider has no idea whether or not any or all of them are there, in your water, or at what levels.

IMO THIS IS ANOTHER MAJOR DEFICIENCY IN THE EPA'S DRINKING WATER STANDARDS LIST.




So the questions are - is your tap water safe? and is bottled water better?

Personally, if my tap water was funky in the summer, I'd avoid it. At least bottled water has no funk. And if I knew that my water supply was heavily contaminated, I'd avoid it, too in favor of bottled water.



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Friday, July 19, 2019 12:25 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Whatever. It's called denying facts.

BTW - I'm sorry your ego is too fragile to debate FACTS with a FEMALE who might actually know more than you.


Lol.



You haven't laid out any facts. You've only said that I'm not backing up mine, which isn't even true.

You'll notice that I was directing my last reply to the both of you. Last time I checked, CC was a male.

Don't start going all Nilbog on us. We've already got one princess too many here.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 19, 2019 1:20 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:


We've already got one princess too many here.




You really should take off the dress and the makeup, 6ix...

But leave the bra and the underwear on, JSF says you might get lucky with him

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Friday, July 19, 2019 1:41 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]




Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 19, 2019 4:15 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well... I figured with how forcefully you were defending those that drink bottled water, I was pretty sure that you did yourself and weren't just arguing on their behalf.

ad hominem
Quote:

We're simply on the same page that anybody who does it because they're too lazy to put it in a washable bottle is part of the problem.
No we're not agreeing. Because the OTHER part of bottled water is to avoid bad tap water. And misrepresenting my argument to score an 'easy' win? That's called a strawman.
Quote:

They're voting with their wallet that the status quo is just fine by them.
They're voting with their wallet that they have issues with the tap water.
Quote:

If you actually have legitimate cause for concern that your local water is contaminated, then you safely fall in the minority of people in America that have valid health concerns about what's in their water.
I have perhaps a hundred links that prove you wrong. So WAY TO GO DODGING FACTS, JACK!
Quote:

But at the end of the day, only 30% of plastic water bottles get recycled.
We need better plastic. Not just for water bottles, for EVERYTHING made out of plastic ... like all the packaging that no one has a choice about buying.
Quote:

The rest end up in landfills or incinerated or in our lakes and rivers. Pulling it up,
You mean - water? What if they DON'T 'pull it up'? What if it's a spring, or artesian well?
Quote:

treating it and then transporting it around the world leaves such a large carbon footprint that you can fill 1/4 of that water bottle in your hand with oil and that's how much was used to get it in your hands.
Not true. But I'm going to let you dig out the link proving your point, since I already have the link proving you're wrong. Do you EVER fact-check your bullshit? And btw, cleaning municipal drinking water is ALSO an energy hog, not to mention the energy that went in to the entire infrastructure. (links proving the point already provided)
Quote:

It also can cost up to 2,000 times more to buy it than tap water.
Consumer's choice.
Quote:

More than half of bottled water IS tap water.
ALSO NOT TRUE. Same story with the links, dood. Put up, or shut up.
Quote:

Unlike municipalities, the big corporations that make bottled water are not required to release their testing results to the public (why is that, I wonder?)
You got a link for that? Because I have links that say they ARE required to test and report, but it's through the FDA, not the EPA.
Quote:

I'm not going to agree with you that the corporations here are culpable for how the bottles are made.
Then are YOU? Did YOU decide? Did I decide? WHO made those decisions about what would and would not be manufactured, and sold?
Quote:

The people have spoken.
The people have no choice, if they want something other than what comes out of the tap. And there are good reasons to not want what comes out of the tap. As I have PROVEN with my links.
Quote:

They have voted with their wallet, and any concerns they pretend to have about the environmental impact of their choices have been negated by those very same choices.
Their immediate concerns are to drink water not from the tap.
Quote:

They're happily willing to pay an absolutely ridiculous amount for water that's free out of their tap.
Because they think IT'S WORTH IT.
Quote:

Then, 70% of them don't even bother to recycle the bottles when they're done because as lazy as they already were they can't even fucking be bothered to do that.
Unless of course there ARE no places to recycle. Gee, you going to blame them for that, too? Do you suggest they go and build recycling facilities with their own bare hands?
Quote:

Do Right, Be Right. :)
Only if being an ass counts as doing right, being right.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Jack, you have not a single FACT to back up your reply.

Dispute the facts or STFU.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Google it.

Half of what I said were in links I already posted too.


Feel free to bring up any specific points that you don't agree with, but I will strike them down when you do.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I think I've done a pretty good job disproving your 'facts' cough bullshit cough. So how about addressing them?


MY ONE POINT - which, unlike you, I've amply proven - is that tap water isn't as safe as you claim, or as delicious as you think.

If people are looking for better water, it's not their fault that their 'choice' is water in plastic bottles.

Instead of blaming people because their tap water is deficient, why not blame the companies that make the plastic?

Or would that be too logical?

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Friday, July 19, 2019 8:35 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's a different argument. If you want to go down that path we could talk about every single thing that every single person buys and enjoys but isn't necessary for sustenance.



That is my argument. You can frame a defense of someone's individual choices anyway you want so as to defend your own choices, but as soon as you do then you open yourself up to someone else's interpretation.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're talking about water that is essentially free and safe to drink, yet people out of laziness pay up to 2,000 times the price at a much greater cost to the environment. Something that is already readily available to them by flipping a faucet and not even needing to leave their own house.



No, that's faulty reasoning. It's not laziness, it's health. I don't trust my tap water. Flint is a warning - how do you know your water isn't bad? Just because it isn't a funny color? My water smells bad - not going to drink it. That's like a basic survival instinct.

Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Besides. It's impossible for anybody to grow a crop of tobacco for themselves in their backyards. It would be as stupid as trying to grow your own potatoes, which nobody does, BTW. Google it.



Really?

How to grow Potatoes at home:
https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/home/gardening/a20706122/how-to-grow-
potatoes
/

There's a Tobacco Festival in southern Ohio. When you drive there you'll see tobacco leaves in peoples' backyards all over the place. (When I was in college we grew pot in-between the corn stalks.) Water, dirt, sunlight.

Come to think of it... you have that house on a good sized lot, right? Why don't you have a huge garden, or do you? Eat better and cheaper. It's because of personal choices, right?

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Friday, July 19, 2019 9:37 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


https://sciencing.com/carbon-footprint-plastic-bottle-12307187.html


Growing pot is far different than growing tobacco. Even at today's tobacco prices, the amount of land you'd need to dedicate to it is staggering, and the amount of work you'd need to do is simply not worth it. I was recently able to order 20lbs of cut tobacco ready to roll for $215 shipped. That is enough to last me almost a full year, and it cost me less than 10 hours worth of work at my old job.

To put that in perspective, working three days per week, the same amount of money only drove me to work and back for 10 weeks.


Same goes for potatoes. There probably isn't anything in the grocery store that you can buy that is cheaper than potatoes. They're practically giving them away. But in order to do it in your yard that requires a significant amount of your land to yield anything worthwhile, and it's a lot of work that you don't need to do since you can pay for potatoes with pocket change.




Pot, on the other hand, is expensive. Artificially expensive, sure, but it costs far more than tobacco and might as well be gold if you're going to compare it against potatoes by savings per weight or by ease of growing and harvesting.

Once again these arguments are absolute apples to oranges to bottled water since everybody with an apartment or a house has a tap in their home.





Report: 64% of Bottled Water Is Tap Water, Costs 2000x More

https://www.ecowatch.com/bottled-water-sources-tap-2537510642.html

Quote:

Bottled water companies have relied on predatory marketing practices and exorbitant lobbying efforts to sell Americans on the inaccurate belief that pre-packaged water is cleaner and safer than tap water—a notion that is costing U.S. households about $16 billion per year.

In a new report entitled "Take Back the Tap," Food & Water Watch explains that 64 percent of bottled water comes from municipal tap water sources—meaning that Americans are often unknowingly paying for water that would otherwise be free or nearly free.




You might not drink Coca-Cola or Pepsi. But that doesn't mean that Coca-Cola or PepsiCo haven't brainwashed you into thinking that you can't drink the tap water that you always grew up with as a kid.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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