REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

how the Democrats give away votes - illegal immigration

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Thursday, August 22, 2019 18:43
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Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'll start with illegal immigration.


MOST people want the borders secured, even if they don't want a wall per se.

https://thehill.com/latino/442044-poll-majority-sees-crisis-at-us-sout
hern-border

Poll: Majority of voters say there's a growing 'crisis' at southern border (05/03/19)
https://morningconsult.com/2019/01/08/plurality-of-voters-think-theres
-a-crisis-at-the-border
/
Plurality of Voters Think There’s a Crisis at the Border (01/08/2019)
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/17/627251940/amid-a-hispanic-boom-conflict
ing-feelings-on-immigration

Immigration is near the top of the list of issues Americans find "the most worrying," according to a new poll conducted for NPR by the research firm Ipsos. (07/17/2018)



This all officially started - as part of the Trump administration - with Trump wanting to control immigration from countries with significant pro-ISIS / anti-western terrorism: originally Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen.

Obviously I'm not Trump, and I can't address what goes on in his head. But looking at the severe terrorism and criminal crisis in Europe, I would say it was caused by 1) an influx of an insupportable number of refugees, which was IMO just bad policy 2) poor vetting at the Schengen external borders, due to lax policies and procedures and 3) Schengen, which allowed terrorists and criminals to freely move between countries to avoid being tracked by any one government. So for example, you find terrorists coming in from Syria through Greece (where they sometimes grab children and pretend to be a family), settling in the Netherlands where they find each other, commuting to and coordinating with terrorists in Paris, and then exiting to Libya for more terrorist training. (This is the real composite background of the terrorists involved in the Paris multiple-site bombings and shootings.)

If I wanted to be sure such a thing wasn't happening to the US, I might want to specially vet refugees coming from countries with high levels of terrorist activity. And I might want to toughen up our borders, so they aren't so porous. But what seems to me like a common sense approach to keeping out terrorists and preventing a potential problem (by learning from the European example, for instance) was reflexively called by democrats racist. Because, yanno, Trump. Anyway, through a series of court decisions and updated orders the idea was legally upheld.

But people from the Middle East and North Africa don't have a very large or vocal US support group, so this issue exited relatively quickly from the media-space.



On to round two.

I found that as far back as July 2018, Trump was talking about an 'invasion' at the southern border. (Perhaps he was saying the same thing even further back, but I didn't find a reference for it.) Despite his cringe-worthy inflammatory rhetoric, he was on to a problem before most people even had an inkling it was a possibility. Because at that time, and through 2018, illegal crossings were just another average year.



Perhaps he understood that migrant caravans were already on their way in early 2018 and just did some simple math. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_migrant_caravans Anyway ...

... that was 2018 ...


At this point, I think most people understand there is a crisis at the border. And perhaps they even understand our asylum process is broken, and that once people enter the US we do an extremely poor job tracking them.

A lot of this sloppiness is historical, some of it is political, but I think it's also significantly intentional as well. Different entities like to have an easily exploited / manipulated / vulnerable subpopulation. For well over 100 years, illegal immigrants have been traditionally used as cheap labor, until they become a political liability, at which point they get pushed back over the southern border (such as after WWII, when US troops did the pushing). They're also a handy political force for democrats willing to turn them into victims. So there are a LOT of people in the past and present who really don't want to see this problem solved. And that makes Trump unusual. He wants to stop it, no matter who it inconveniences.

As a response to this crisis, democrats - rather than acknowledge that most people want border security and try to fix a real problem - have decided that the way to go is to decriminalize illegal border crossing, and to scrap any criteria used in deciding if people are asylum seekers. Basically, they're de facto promoting open borders. Because, Trump!! Also, fwiw, most of the candidates are calling for free healthcare and college for non-citizens. But even the tolerant Swiss have their limits: Swiss: No more citizenship to refugees on welfare https://onenewsnow.com/culture/2018/01/11/swiss-no-more-citizenship-to
-refugees-on-welfare




Instead of acknowledging all the problems and trying go come up with a genuine solution, the democrats are turning a blind eye to the issues, to the will of their constituents, and are of course being reflexively anti-Trump. Because, Trump!! This approach to the southern border I think is going to bite democrats in the ass.


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Wednesday, July 31, 2019 10:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Rahm Emanuel concurs:

Quote:

"Don’t Make Detroit’s Debate Miami Part II ... This time, don’t fall into the traps that had many of us shaking our heads during the debates in Miami."

"Before our party promises health care coverage to undocumented immigrants — a position not even Ted Kennedy took — let’s help the more than 30 million Americans who are a single illness away from financial ruin. Before we start worrying about whether the Boston Marathon bomber can vote, let’s stop states that are actively trying to curtail voting rights of citizens. And before we promise a guaranteed minimum income to healthy adults who prefer to stay home and play video games, let’s increase the minimum wage and the Earned Income Tax Credit to make work pay for the millions of people who work hard and still live near poverty."



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'll start with illegal immigration.

...

At this point, I think most people understand there is a crisis at the border. And perhaps they even understand our asylum process is broken, and that once people enter the US we do an extremely poor job tracking them.

A lot of this sloppiness is historical, some of it is political, but I think it's also significantly intentional as well.

What most people do not understand is that Trump is hopelessly incompetent.

Illegal immigrants read the news and they know about Trump's incompetence, even if American citizens are unaware. Illegals are depending on his incompetence to get into, and remain, in the US. The illegals know that:

As it grapples with a record number of migrant families at the southern border, the Trump administration has so far deported fewer people, on average each year, than the Obama administration.

In fiscal year 2018, the Trump administration deported 256,086 immigrants. In contrast, President Barack Obama removed 409,849 people in 2012.

Another fact illegals know about Trump: from May 13 through July 11, a two month period, ICE arrested only 899 adults who had final deportation orders, in an undertaking called Operation Cross Check. The majority had criminal convictions. At that rate, only 6,000 will be deported in a year. That is out of at least 11,000,000 that need deportation.

Another fact illegals know about Trump: a backlog of nearly one million immigration cases means that it can take years for their case to wind its way through the courts.

And Trump's raids are going very badly. More than 2,000 migrants who were in the United States illegally were targeted in widely publicized raids that unfolded across the country two weeks ago. But figures the government provided to The New York Times on Monday show that just 35 people were detained in the operation.

President Trump had touted the raids — called Operation Border Resolve — as a show of force amid an influx of Central American parents and children across the southern border. What Trump showed was not "force" but weakness. To reiterate: the illegals know how weak Trump is. They aren't fooled by his empty bragging. That is why they are swarming to the Southern border.

www.nytimes.com/2019/07/23/us/ice-raids-apprehensions.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:50 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Apparently SECOND thinks that every southern border problem arose with Trump and Trump alone, and will disappear with him. Also, please note that SECOND has HIGHLY edited the parts of the NYTimes he pretends to quote, and is trying to pass it off as a genuine article.

1. My 600 lb life. (TV show)
2. Donald Trump.
3. Texas Republicans.
4. Ruining people's lives because of their political beliefs.
5. Talking about how much money he has
6. Republicans in general
7. Conservatives

Quote:

Originally posted by second:
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
Of course taken from:
www.nytimes.com/2019/07/23/us/ice-raids-apprehensions.html

FIFY
I've helpfully summarized your post so other people can get the gist without having to do any tedious reading.


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Thursday, August 1, 2019 2:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Welfare state and open borders simply don't mix. Many EU nations have discovered that already, and most Americans understand that concept at a gut level.

KIKI, are you planning on creating a different thread for each topic?

Because there's another one that the Democrats are focusing on (according to someone who watched the first round of the second debate) which is, if anything, even more unpopular than extending welfare to illegal migrants, and that's "reparations for slavery".

But that's another topic and possible another thread.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 3:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes - I'm hoping to have separate threads titled 'how the Democrats give away votes - xxxxxx'

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Welfare state and open borders simply don't mix. Many EU nations have discovered that already, and most Americans understand that concept at a gut level.

Yes, some of the issues are with the welfare state / open borders combination.

But it's not JUST about the welfare state. There are many arenas in the US that don't currently meet the needs of existing citizens that would be overwhelmed by a large influx of immigrants, like schools and medical care. But I'll focus on jobs and housing.

Working people have been falling behind for decades. And there simply isn't enough job growth + wage growth to support a lot of extra people looking for work, and maintain current wages. I know this because currently, even WITH strong employment demands, wages are flat at best compared to inflation. Real Wage Growth Is Actually Falling https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickwwatson/2018/09/25/real-wage-growt
h-is-actually-falling/#3673ec8c7284


In our current situation all sorts of statistics indicate US citizens are faring poorly: The USDA estimates that nearly 13 million children in the United States live in food-insecure households as of 2016.1 That means that 1 in 6 children (18%) may not have consistent access to enough food for an active, healthy life. And that's despite the fact that SNAP benefits supplied roughly 40 million Americans in 2018. Approximately 9.2% of American households obtained SNAP benefits at some point during 2017, with approximately 16.7% of all children living in households with SNAP benefits.

We have the first-world problem that home ownership has gone down. On top of that, housing of course has become more expensive, so that For the majority of states, between 10% and 15% of households are housing insecure. I'm not sure we have the economic capacity to house a lot more people without pushing even more out on the street.

We're simply not providing for Americans as it is through any combination of (private / public) (opportunity / resources).

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 7:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Yes - I'm hoping to have separate threads titled 'how the Democrats give away votes - xxxxxx'

Maybe you should make it: How Trump gave away control of the Southern Border

www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
The graph for 2017 shows that Border Apprehensions dropped immediately after Trump became President. Then Trump announced many times that he could NOT control the border without his NEW AND BEAUTIFUL WALL. The illegals decided to come North and see if the border was as weak and porous as Trump said it was.

Every month that Trump says he cannot stop migrants because he does not have his Wall is a month when more and more migrants test the border to see if what Trump says is true. Trump's big mouth is calling the migrants to the border.

Trump: I Can Call A "National Emergency" And Build The Wall "Very Quickly"
www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/01/04/trump_i_can_call_a_national
_emergency_and_build_the_wall_very_quickly.html


It has been 8 months since Trump shutdown the government, but there is still no new Wall. Trump has not used his emergency powers to stop migrants. The migrants know this. A huge number of them have come North now to get inside the USA before Trump finally gets around to calling that National Emergency he has been promising.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 8:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


1. My 600 lb life. (TV show)
2. Donald Trump.
3. Texas Republicans.
4. Ruining people's lives because of their political beliefs.
5. Talking about how much money he has
6. Republicans in general
7. Conservatives

Quote:

Originally posted by SECOND:
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump
2. Donald Trump.




FIFY
I've helpfully summarized your post so other people can get the gist without having to do any tedious reading.

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 8:42 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


I went to Houston construction sites with cans of Dos Equis beer on ice to get the facts about the border. I asked the migrants why are they here? Why now? They said "Trump". The Southern border can't stop migrants because it needs a new wall, according to Trump. The migrants and their families came now, before Trump gets around to building his new wall.

It is amazing what I can learn with high school Spanish and a can of beer. Maybe somebody should tell Trump to stop talking about the Wall and just build it, fast, before all of Central America arrives. Or Trump could declare the national emergency he was talking about in February. Trump is motivating all the migrants to come immediately, before Trump delivers on his promise to stop migration. That is what the migrants say in Texas.

Personally, I don't think Trump wants to stop migration. Migration is an excellent way for him to get reelected. He will promise that in 2021 he will finally, and actually, do something real, rather than just talk and talk some more.

www.walmart.com/ip/Dos-Equis-Mexican-Pale-Ale-12pk-Cans/627315280

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 9:09 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


1. My 600 lb life. (TV show)
2. Donald Trump.
3. Texas Republicans.
4. Ruining people's lives because of their political beliefs.
5. Talking about how much money he has
6. Republicans in general
7. Conservatives

Quote:

Originally posted by SECOND:
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.
2. Donald Trump.




FIFY
I've helpfully summarized your post so other people can get the gist without having to do any tedious reading.

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 9:31 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


As a comparison, please note that Canada has strict requirements for those who seek asylum or permanent residence in Canada.

edited for brevity and clarity

Quote:

https://ccrweb.ca/en/refugees-entering-us-and-safe-third-country-faq
Under the Safe Third Country Agreement, in force since December 2004, Canada and the US designate each other as “safe” for refugees and establish the principle that refugee claimants should generally seek protection in the first of the two countries that they reach. There are some limited exceptions to this principle, including for people with family in the other country.

Quote:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/ref
ugees/help-outside-canada.html


Resettle in Canada as a refugee
Determine your eligibility

To come to Canada as a refugee, you must be referred. The United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR), a designated referral organization, or a private sponsorship group can refer you. You cannot apply directly to us as a refugee.

To be referred, you must fall into one of these two refugee classes.
1) Convention refugee abroad class
2) Country of asylum class

Quote:

Find out if you’re eligible – Refugee status from inside Canada (after an irregular crossing)
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/ref
ugees/claim-protection-inside-canada/eligibility.html


The IRB decides who is a Convention refugee or a person in need of protection.

Your refugee claim may not be eligible to be referred to the IRB if you:
have been recognized as a Convention refugee by another country that you can return to.
have already been granted protected person status in Canada.
arrived via the Canada-United States border.
are not admissible to Canada on security grounds, or because of criminal activity or human rights violations.
made a previous refugee claim that was not found eligible.
made a previous refugee claim that was rejected by the IRB.
abandoned or withdrew a previous refugee claim.

Quote:

https://www.canadim.com/blog/5-ways-immigrate-canada-canadian-immigrat
ion
/

5 Ways To Immigrate To Canada | Canadian Immigration
Express Entry
Provincial Nominee Programs
Quebec Immigration
Studying in Canada
Family Sponsorship

Express Entry (permanent residence)
apply to one of the immigration streams governed by Express Entry (Federal Skilled Worker (FSW), Canadian Experience Class (CEC), Federal Skilled Trades Program (FSTP) and some Provincial Nominee Programs (PNPs)

Provincial Nominee Programs (permanent residence)
each province and territory has authority over its own immigration programs and policies. ... ideal candidates for PNP programs usually fall under one of these categories (Have recently worked in Canada, or are currently working on a valid work permit; Are currently in the Express Entry pool and meet the eligibility criteria for one of the Provincial Nominee Programs aligned with Express Entry; Have a connection to the province, in the form of studies, prior work experience, or a formal job offer; ave a family member living in the province in question, which may assist your application for some PNPs)

Quebec Immigration (permanent residence)
Currently, there are no Quebec immigration streams that are aligned with Express Entry. Instead, you may choose to apply directly to the Quebec government for the Quebec Skilled Worker Program, the Quebec Experience Class, or Quebec Business Immigration.

Studying in Canada (permanent residence)
If you’re ineligible for one of the immigration streams mentioned above, the student pathway can be an excellent option for becoming a Canadian permanent resident.

Family Sponsorship (unstated)
If you have a spouse or child that is currently a Canadian permanent resident or citizen, they are allowed to sponsor you to come to Canada.


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Thursday, August 1, 2019 2:09 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
As a comparison, please note that Canada has strict requirements for those who seek asylum or permanent residence in Canada.

edited for brevity and clarity

As a comparison, the United States immigrant population represents 14.4% of the U.S. population while Canada has a larger proportion of immigrants, with 21.9%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

And a majority of native born Canadians want immigrants out of the country, whether they are in Canada legally or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_Canada

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:08 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Welfare state and open borders simply don't mix. Many EU nations have discovered that already, and most Americans understand that concept at a gut level.

KIKI, are you planning on creating a different thread for each topic?

Because there's another one that the Democrats are focusing on (according to someone who watched the first round of the second debate) which is, if anything, even more unpopular than extending welfare to illegal migrants, and that's "reparations for slavery".

But that's another topic and possible another thread.

Is kamala Harris the one who supports reparations, and would be one of the heirs of slaveowners who would be paying out the reparations?

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Thursday, August 1, 2019 9:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Welfare state and open borders simply don't mix. Many EU nations have discovered that already, and most Americans understand that concept at a gut level.

KIKI, are you planning on creating a different thread for each topic?

Because there's another one that the Democrats are focusing on (according to someone who watched the first round of the second debate) which is, if anything, even more unpopular than extending welfare to illegal migrants, and that's "reparations for slavery".

But that's another topic and possible another thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Is kamala Harris the one who supports reparations, and would be one of the heirs of slaveowners who would be paying out the reparations?

According to an somewhat outdated website the answer is maybe. https://newsone.com/playlist/2020-presidential-candidates-reparations/
item/9
/

According to the website, definite supporters are Cory Booker, Julián Castro, Kirsten Gillibrand, Mike Gravel, John Hickenlooper, Beto O’Rourke (yes AND no), and Marianne Williamson.

Others are definitely for studying the subject, or equivocal on what 'reparations' means. Only a very few candidates have definitively said no to cash payments, one of them being Pete Buttigieg.

I haven't re watched or summarized this second round of debates, so I'm not sure where people stand now.

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Friday, August 2, 2019 1:33 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Democratic Presidential Candidates Need to Stop Taking Unpopular Stances


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/democratic-candidates-taking-un
popular-stances-progressive-trump-private-insurance-decriminalize-border.html


Quote:

Democratic Debates Will Alienate Democratic Voters
The progressive push to the left among presidential candidates will alienate most Democrats and independents, helping Donald Trump to a second term.



https://reason.com/2019/08/01/the-democratic-debates-will-alienate-dem
ocratic-voters
/


Quote:

Democrats Cannot Ignore the Rest of America and Win in 2020
Recent polls have shown that Democratic primary voter positions are not in step with the sentiments of the general electorate. This needs to change for Democrats to defeat Trump in 2020.



https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-democrats-cannot-ignore-the-rest-of-
america-and-win-in-2020/FC6CC306-BDFD-46E8-A38A-52A7E2863A09.html


Quote:

When did Barack Obama become a Republican?


https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/opinions/when-did-barack-obama-become-a
-republican-avlon/index.html




It doesn't look good for Democrats when their own newspapers are saying they're not doing it right.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, August 2, 2019 3:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Just to say that the Dems are doing their usual "push polling". The DNC sends out these "surveys" which ask things like "what are your personal priorities? Check up to three" then lists 14 things, NONE of which are anywhere on my priority list. So I make use of the teeny-tiny space that they sometimes include for "other" (and where they don't include space I use whatever margins there are).

The reason why I bring this up isn't just my own personal grotch, altho it IS annoying as hell.

I bring this up because the DNC CLEARLY has these questions geared towards it's "base" ... all they want to know is What percent of THEIR BASE agrees with their priorities?

Well, I have news for them: Even if 95% of their registered base votes for their whackaddodle candidates and whackadoodle programs, it won't be enough to win them the election. Registered Democrats (of which I am one) only make up about 35% of the voting population. That's not enough to win an election. They need to find out what independent and maybe even GOP voters are thinking ... yanno, maybe try to represent the typical American and not just their rabidly-devoted (and maybe NOT so rabidly-devoted) base.

I think there are policies that would rightly represent almost ALL Americans, not just those who see themselves as permanent victims. Good jobs for everyone who can work. Equality of education and opportunity, no discrimination in jobs or pay or housing or banking. Healthcare. No more war. A system that rewards work, not ownership. Seems like it's a plan that almost everyone could get behind, if they believed that the promise was genuine and achievable. So why don't the Dems do it?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, August 2, 2019 6:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I think there are policies that would rightly represent almost ALL Americans, not just those who see themselves as permanent victims. Good jobs for everyone who can work. Equality of education and opportunity, no discrimination in jobs or pay or housing or banking. Healthcare. No more war. A system that rewards work, not ownership. Seems like it's a plan that almost everyone could get behind, if they believed that the promise was genuine and achievable. So why don't the Dems do it?

That is pure Huey Long: "A Chicken In Every Pot, and Every Man A King." Long was way ahead of his time, and that was in 1934. He wanted a cap on extreme wealth, and shift the economy balance to the then barely existing middle class. He also was assassinated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long#Assassination_and_aftermath

Today, the median income is $60,000 per year. The half of the country's voters above the median would oppose strenuously any policy that helped those below the median. For even raising the minimum wage, there is little support. And forget about Healthcare for all when those above the median already have healthcare. And I NEVER see those either above or below the median complaining that our Generals and Admirals are half-ass losers who kill civilians but never win a war. Vietnam? We'd still be fighting there if Congress had not cutoff funding for that specific war. Most Americans won't go to the polls to demand the Pentagon budget be cut in half. Unless the budget is cut, the endless American wars will continue. Instead, American voters want either more spent on "Defense" or maintain the present spending levels.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, August 2, 2019 10:26 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Though that's a generalization, it might be true.

But Democrats should stick with that message instead of whatever the fuck they're trying to pull right now.

They're about to get annihilated in 2020.


I don't think that most of them even believe what they're saying. They're just saying what they think they need to say right now to get the most rabid SJW types to come out and vote for them in the primaries.

But how are they going to walk any of this back when they have to debate Trump? They're a million miles from the center right now. When asked a question they don't have a legitimate answer for, they reply with "That's a Republican talking point".

Okay.

Well if you can't answer the question now in a room full of friendlies, what do you suppose will happen when it's just you 1-on-1 with Trump?


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, August 2, 2019 12:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I think there are policies that would rightly represent almost ALL Americans, not just those who see themselves as permanent victims. Good jobs for everyone who can work. Equality of education and opportunity, no discrimination in jobs or pay or housing or banking. Healthcare. No more war. A system that rewards work, not ownership. Seems like it's a plan that almost everyone could get behind, if they believed that the promise was genuine and achievable. So why don't the Dems do it?= SIGNY

That is pure Huey Long: "A Chicken In Every Pot, and Every Man A King."

Er, well, it looks more like FDR to me, except the thing about "no more war" and "reward work not ownership"

Quote:

Long was way ahead of his time, and that was in 1934. He wanted a cap on extreme wealth, and shift the economy balance to the then barely existing middle class. He also was assassinated.
I guess anyone who proposes something TRULY at odds with TPTB has to think about assasination. In fact, I'm a little surprised Trump has lasted this long; he must have an extremely dedicated security team.

Quote:

Today, the median income is $60,000 per year. The half of the country's voters above the median would oppose strenuously any policy that helped those below the median. For even raising the minimum wage, there is little support. And forget about Healthcare for all when those above the median already have healthcare. And I NEVER see those either above or below the median complaining that our Generals and Admirals are half-ass losers who kill civilians but never win a war. Vietnam? We'd still be fighting there if Congress had not cutoff funding for that specific war. Most Americans won't go to the polls to demand the Pentagon budget be cut in half. Unless the budget is cut, the endless American wars will continue. Instead, American voters want either more spent on "Defense" or maintain the present spending levels.
Disagree with you there, SECOND. Many of those above the median income make their money by WORKING. Doctors, engineers, chemists, lawyers.... they're above the median but they're not rentier capitalists. They should have no problems with a system that rewards work.

And as far as Americans "wanting" war ... yanno, Americans have to be constantly prodded into it. The peace alternative has to be constantly removed from sight: That's why Tulsi Gabbard is being soft-censored from the picture. The propagnadists wouldn't have to work so hard to stampede us into war if (1) our opinion didn't make a difference and (2) if our opinion wasn't heading in the opposite direction.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, August 2, 2019 3:07 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


The censorship from big tech is becoming an issue that your average Democrat isn't going to be able to ignore.

They target mostly conservatives today out of convenience, since conservative values generally are pro Constitutionalism and anti-censorship.

But with the old Media dying off, they don't have the stranglehold on information distribution anymore. They still have most of the money though. Youtube is going to be bleached until it's nothing but "family friendly" programming like TV was.

The recent actions of Google and Twitter vs Tulsi should be making this pretty blatantly obvious.

That is, unless you believe the new stories coming out that Tulsi is a Russian operative.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, August 2, 2019 7:05 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Disagree with you there, SECOND. Many of those above the median income make their money by WORKING. Doctors, engineers, chemists, lawyers.... they're above the median but they're not rentier capitalists. They should have no problems with a system that rewards work.

And as far as Americans "wanting" war ... yanno, Americans have to be constantly prodded into it. The peace alternative has to be constantly removed from sight: That's why Tulsi Gabbard is being soft-censored from the picture. The propagnadists wouldn't have to work so hard to stampede us into war if (1) our opinion didn't make a difference and (2) if our opinion wasn't heading in the opposite direction.

We already have that "rewards" system for working. You work for people like me and I reward you. But the system does not force people like me to pay you well or provide you with medical. Most of those "Doctors, engineers, chemists, lawyers ..." do NOT support higher minimum wage or medical care for all. Most of the engineers I knew would be Ebenezer Scrooge to their employees, if they had any. Scrooge hates government telling him how much to pay Tiny Tim's daddy. And Scrooge also hates government creating government jobs. What if Bob Cratchit quits Scrooge for a better job! Scrooge is furious!

As for war, Americans don't need propagandizing. 99% of Americans aren't going and couldn't imagine going, which makes it real easy for the Pentagon to screw up a war -- nobody important will die when it goes wrong, just some lower class volunteers who traded away their lives for a job, somebody like me in 1970, not somebody like Trump in 1968.

Remember Pat Tillman, football player who died in Afghanistan? If his brother had not been there at the time, the generals would have swept the fiasco of his death under the rug. They certainly tried. That entire war was fought ridiculously, mostly because the volunteers are not like Tillman, but are nobodies and the Generals don't have to take care of them. The Generals can waste their men and ammo on foolish strategies. Nobody will notice what is going on nor will they understand why the war can't be won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, August 2, 2019 7:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
You work for people like me and I reward you.



Allegedly.

We all know that you don't do anything productive.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, August 2, 2019 7:29 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
You work for people like me and I reward you.



Allegedly.

We all know that you don't do anything productive.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

My job when I was in construction was building petrochemical plants. Those plants all burned natural gas so my job was to put CO2 into the atmosphere. Then there was the job of drilling for natural gas, which ultimately is burned into CO2. If that isn't productive, then you are correct. I am responsible for megatons, no, make that gigatons of greenhouse gases. This summer you can thank me for the heatwave. This winter, thank me for an earlier than usual spring.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, August 2, 2019 9:55 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
You work for people like me and I reward you.



Allegedly.

We all know that you don't do anything productive.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

My job when I was in construction was building petrochemical plants. Those plants all burned natural gas so my job was to put CO2 into the atmosphere. Then there was the job of drilling for natural gas, which ultimately is burned into CO2. If that isn't productive, then you are correct. I am responsible for megatons, no, make that gigatons of greenhouse gases. This summer you can thank me for the heatwave. This winter, thank me for an earlier than usual spring.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly



Thanks!

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, August 22, 2019 6:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
... it's not JUST about the welfare state. There are many arenas in the US that don't currently meet the needs of existing citizens that would be overwhelmed by a large influx of immigrants, like schools and medical care. But I'll focus on ... housing.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/berkeley-loves-its-sanctuary-l
abel-but-a-housing-crisis-is-testing-its-liberal-values/2019/05/23/805b2b48-7721-11e9-b3f5-5673edf2d127_story.html

Berkeley loves its sanctuary label, but a housing crisis is testing its liberal values
As homelessness surges, the Northern California city’s move to push out campers and their occupants has triggered anger from its neighbors.
By Scott Wilson

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