REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Election fallout

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, January 18, 2024 13:59
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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 6:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Given that votes are still being counted it's too soon to say in some races what will happen

But overall, Dems didn't manage to push a single Republican from the House, and didn't manage to take the Senate.

There is already fingerpointing and blame-laying within the DCC about these election failures.

Whether Trump or Biden wins, we have a divided government: Dem House, GOP Senate, probable Dem President, and conservative Supreme Court.

Unfortunately there is a lot of unfinished business that won't be completed: investigating the FBI for it's persecution of political rivals for example. And those that remain in Congress are likely to be political establishment hacks of both parties, meaning that only the worst ideas will be sifted thru Congress to land on the President's desk.

If there's going to be any real reform, the only way it's going to happen is if people can manage to come together and push it, item by item.

The offshoring of production

Debt overhang

Endless wars abroad

Health care for all

Environmental remediation

Congress isn't going to tackle any of these unless they're REALLY REALLY pushed.


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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 6:22 PM

REAVERFAN


Jesus fuck, you can't stop lying, can you? You're RUSSIAN. You don't live here. Your country is not divided. It's just a fascist dictatorship and you're fine with that.



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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 7:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
Jesus fuck, you can't stop lying, can you? You're RUSSIAN. You don't live here. Your country is not divided. It's just a fascist dictatorship and you're fine with that.



Prove it.
You can't.

In the meantime, how about those ISSUES? Yanno, the problems that need solving, not your delusions about who you think I am.

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

You seem to be allergic to the topic. Are YOU American?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 7:27 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 8:02 PM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:

Jesus fuck, you can't stop lying, can you? You're RUSSIAN. You don't live here. Your country is not divided. It's just a fascist dictatorship and you're fine with that.





Agreed, sig is a russian troll...

T

Stupid people don't know they're stupid, and they certainly don't realize how obvious it is to others.


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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 8:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

But here's the thing, SECOND, and I'm glad that you engage in a conversation about issues.

Not everything can OR SHOULD be solved by tax-and-spend.

Why are Americans homeless? Well, part of the problem is that there are a lot of mentally ill and drug addicted people who aren't getting treatment.

OTOH many people have been priced out of the market by rampant speculation. You can't build or spend your way out of that. The only way to fix that is to rein in speculation with higher interest rates and stricter lending standards.

And then the is the problem that there are not enough meaningful jobs at living wages. Thanks to offshoring and automation and illegal immigration there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. (Please note: offshoring,illegal immigration, and automation are profit-driven decisions which the government can modify by policy)

So young people stalled their lives by going to college, which left them saddled with debt and unable to afford buying a home.

Treatment is a tax and spend issue, but other solutions can be found in tariff and investment and trade policies, lending and banking standards, etc. Not everything requires a "sugar daddy" government approach, and if the government shovels more money into a speculative housing bubble it v will probably do what money flowing into any bubble does: make it bigger.

There will always be people who are incapable of working, but rather than treat EVERYONE as a charity case, why not make it possible for people to be able to contribute to their own lives? I think they'd feel a lot better.

I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, but this is the best I can come up with. If you think you have better ideas that's great.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Wednesday, November 4, 2020 9:34 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

But here's the thing, SECOND, and I'm glad that you engage in a conversation about issues.

Not everything can OR SHOULD be solved by tax-and-spend.

Why are Americans homeless? Well, part of the problem is that there are a lot of mentally ill and drug addicted people who aren't getting treatment.

OTOH many people have been priced out of the market by rampant speculation. You can't build or spend your way out of that. The only way to fix that is to rein in speculation with higher interest rates and stricter lending standards.

And then the is the problem that there are not enough meaningful jobs at living wages. Thanks to offshoring and automation and illegal immigration there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. (Please note: offshoring,illegal immigration, and automation are profit-driven decisions which the government can modify by policy)

So young people stalled their lives by going to college, which left them saddled with debt and unable to afford buying a home.

Treatment is a tax and spend issue, but other solutions can be found in tariff and investment and trade policies, lending and banking standards, etc. Not everything requires a "sugar daddy" government approach, and if the government shovels more money into a speculative housing bubble it v will probably do what money flowing into any bubble does: make it bigger.

There will always be people who are incapable of working, but rather than treat EVERYONE as a charity case, why not make it possible for people to be able to contribute to their own lives? I think they'd feel a lot better.

I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, but this is the best I can come up with. If you think you have better ideas that's great.

I have the book for you: "The rent is too damn high: what to do about it, and why it matters more than you think"
https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=rent+is+too+damn+high

The final chapter, Reopening the American Frontier, will give you some ideas. A sample:

Even as urban America revived, the overall national economy has had a bad case of the post-industrial blues.

Contrary to what many people think, this is not a case of Americans no longer building things. Industrial output declines in recessions, but over the long haul neither “offshoring” nor Chinese growth changes the fact that America’s factories churn out more dollars’ worth of products than ever before. What they don’t churn out like they used to is jobs. Across the industrialized world, factory work is increasingly done by fewer people and more machines. The service economy has been, in many ways, a disappointment. We’ve had sluggish productivity growth and stagnant median wages. The economic expansion of the George W. Bush years was the weakest in postwar history before it turned into the worst recession in eighty years.

These problems are multifaceted, and you should be suspicious of anyone pushing a pet theory of everything. But Americans must consider the possibility that decades of ill-considered and inefficient land-use policies are an underrated driver of these trends.

You can read the book. I realize that most people won't. If they did, the idea of building more housing would make them angry because it would reduce the value of their own real estate if housing was more abundant. They will vote against that. They will not elect politicians that are for more housing at lower cost. They will not have their minds changed by reading an entire book about the need to do this to fix real problems America has.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 4:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SIGNYM: WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

SECOND: That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

SIGNYM: But here's the thing, SECOND, and I'm glad that you engage in a conversation about issues.
Not everything can OR SHOULD be solved by tax-and-spend.
Why are Americans homeless? Well, part of the problem is that there are a lot of mentally ill and drug addicted people who aren't getting treatment.
OTOH many people have been priced out of the market by rampant speculation. You can't build or spend your way out of that. The only way to fix that is to rein in speculation with higher interest rates and stricter lending standards.

And then the is the problem that there are not enough meaningful jobs at living wages. Thanks to offshoring and automation and illegal immigration there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. (Please note: offshoring,illegal immigration, and automation are profit-driven decisions which the government can modify by policy)

So young people stalled their lives by going to college, which left them saddled with debt and unable to afford buying a home.

Treatment is a tax and spend issue, but other solutions can be found in tariff and investment and trade policies, lending and banking standards, etc. Not everything requires a "sugar daddy" government approach, and if the government shovels more money into a speculative housing bubble it v will probably do what money flowing into any bubble does: make it bigger.

There will always be people who are incapable of working, but rather than treat EVERYONE as a charity case, why not make it possible for people to be able to contribute to their own lives? I think they'd feel a lot better.

I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, but this is the best I can come up with. If you think you have better ideas that's great.

SECOND: I have the book for you: "The rent is too damn high: what to do about it, and why it matters more than you think"
https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=rent+is+too+damn+high

The final chapter, Reopening the American Frontier, will give you some ideas. A sample:

Quote:

Even as urban America revived, the overall national economy has had a bad case of the post-industrial blues.

Contrary to what many people think, this is not a case of Americans no longer building things. Industrial output declines in recessions, but over the long haul neither “offshoring” nor Chinese growth changes the fact that America’s factories churn out more dollars’ worth of products than ever before. What they don’t churn out like they used to is jobs. Across the industrialized world, factory work is increasingly done by fewer people and more machines. The service economy has been, in many ways, a disappointment. We’ve had sluggish productivity growth and stagnant median wages. The economic expansion of the George W. Bush years was the weakest in postwar history before it turned into the worst recession in eighty years.

These problems are multifaceted, and you should be suspicious of anyone pushing a pet theory of everything. But Americans must consider the possibility that decades of ill-considered and inefficient land-use policies are an underrated driver of these trends.




Well, as you can see from my initial post, I've already considered automation, in addition to speculation and disability. In fact, I devoted an entire thread to automation.

What drives land use policies? From my observation of local governments and government consortia (like the Southern California Association of Govenments, or SCAG, which is suppposed to address multi-city issues like land use planning and transportation) oning and land use policies are primarily driven by - what else?- money. In california, and I suppose in the rest of the USA, cities and counties get much of their revenue from taxes based on real estate. Also, in CA bc real estate taxes were capped by prop 13, cities get a cut of the sales tax. Consequently, cities have an interest in developing McMansions and (in CA) retail space.

Um... am I heading in the same direction as the book?

But if you look at house prices in the LA area since the mid 70s, they tripled, then halved, then doubled, then halved, then tripled, then halved, and now they've tripled again. This "hectic" up-and-down change in prices is not the result of population-driven demand (which tends to go up steadily with time) but successive speculative bubbles.

Rent is high because mortgage payments are high. Mortgage payments are high because prices are high. (And even when prices drop, payments don't, because banks will not accept a loss on their loans.) Prices are high because they've been driven up by population-driven demand, AND because of speculation in real estate. Inefficient land-use planning is caused by cities and counties relying on real estate tax revenues.

Automation is rampant because producers are cutting back costs. Producers are cutting costs because they're in cuthroat competition for a shrinking market. Markets are shrinking (excpet in china) because the average citizen has less and less money to purchase goods. People have less and less money for purchasing goods because of automation, so they make up for lost wages by taking out loans.

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism. Solve that basic conundrum and your will have solved a lot of problems.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 6:31 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism.

Thomas Piketty wrote an entire book, Capital and ideology, about all the clever and complicated ways societies can go wrong in economic history. Download the free book: https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=Piketty+Capital+ideology

Piketty is not the kind of person who will simplify things for you, but I am. He is telling governments to NOT allow the greediest citizens to do what they please. Part Two, Slave and Colonial Societies, is full of such stories of greed running free.

I guess Californians don't read Piketty or can't generalize from what they read in order to understand what's happening right in front of them. Look around California at how Uber and Lyft operated and will legally continue to operate. And the ugliest part is that the voters approved it this week: "Big business spent millions to sway Californians’ votes, and received billions in return"
www.marketwatch.com/story/big-business-spent-millions-to-sway-californ
ians-votes-and-received-billions-in-return-11604540224

Voters approved of Uber drivers suffering and Uber stock-owners benefiting from the suffering. Uber understood the ideology of the voters and convinced them it is fair to harm Uber drivers.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 1:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SIGNYM:

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism.

SECOND: Thomas Piketty wrote an entire book, Capital and ideology, about all the clever and complicated ways societies can go wrong in economic history. Download the free book: https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=Piketty+Capital+ideology

Piketty is not the kind of person who will simplify things for you, but I am. He is telling governments to NOT allow the greediest citizens to do what they please. Part Two, Slave and Colonial Societies, is full of such stories of greed running free.

I guess Californians don't read Piketty or can't generalize from what they read in order to understand what's happening right in front of them. Look around California at how Uber and Lyft operated and will legally continue to operate. And the ugliest part is that the voters approved it this week: "Big business spent millions to sway Californians’ votes, and received billions in return"
www.marketwatch.com/story/big-business-spent-millions-to-sway-californ
ians-votes-and-received-billions-in-return-11604540224

Voters approved of Uber drivers suffering and Uber stock-owners benefiting from the suffering. Uber understood the ideology of the voters and convinced them it is fair to harm Uber drivers.



Marx wrote a whole THREE BOOKS on the topic, and as far as I can tell Picketty is just rephrasing it for modern audiences. (And Veblen - someone that you previously referenced - wrote about the evils of rentier capitalism.)

So, do you agree that the fundamental problem is a systemic problem of profit, and not a problem of "Republicans" or "Democrats"?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 1:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Just to continue in the "fallout" theme:

Even tho there will be a divided government, Biden's backers (*with Biden as the front piece) still have a lot of authority as chief administrator, Commander in Chief, and chief negotiator for the USA.


Since Biden* has the backing of the deep state (CIA/FBI/NSA, State Department, DOD, aparatchiks scattered throughout the administration, MI6, NATO, the EU, IMF, etc) we can expect that he* will authorize and promote the folowing


MOAR WAR. Trump let Mike Pompeo and the State Dept interfere with any number of other nations, but the one thing I can say in his favor was that -unlike Obama- he didn't start any NEW wars. Biden* will recommit USA troops and proxies to various hotspots like Syria, Ukraine, possibly moving (jihadi and/or Nazi) proxies into Nagorno-Karabakh and other places you can't find on a map and probably don't care about. The ironic thing is that the Democrat party used to be the party of peace; it is now the party of war.

MOAR "FREE" TRADE. Biden* will attempt to negotiate TTP and TTIP-like "free trade" agreements. Fortunately, this must be ratified by the Senate, so there is a possibility of stopping it there.

MOAR SUPPORT OF BANKS Like Obama before him, Biden will shower money on banks without prosecution when they come into trouble (which they will).

MOAR surveillance. Another thing you can say about Trump is that he didn't institute or promote the widespread illegal surveillance that GWB inititated and that Obama greatly expanded.

PERMANENT POWER TO THE DEMS. I expect the Biden* would fail at any attempt to swing power to Dems by - for example- adding DC or Puerto Rico as states, doing away with the Electoral College, and expanding the Supreme Court etc. and that these will be blocked by the Supreme Court, which now has a majority of literalists. Anything that requires a Constitutional Amendment will be referred to the process of amending the Constitution thru Congressional or state ratification.

"REPARATIONS", ONE-TIME assistance. I expect Biden* will advocate for reparations to pander to the indentitarians, and one-time assistance, but will not promote UBI.

Overall, expect to see a RE-EXPANSION OF FEDERAL POWER OVER THE STATES.

The remainder needs more thought.

-------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 1:56 PM

REAVERFAN


Ooh... The DEEP STATE!

Sounds sinister. Please tell me more.



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Thursday, November 5, 2020 3:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Just to continue in the "fallout" theme:

Even tho there will be a divided government, Biden's backers (*with Biden as the front piece) still have a lot of authority as chief administrator, Commander in Chief, and chief negotiator for the USA.


Since Biden* has the backing of the deep state (CIA/FBI/NSA, State Department, DOD, aparatchiks scattered throughout the administration, MI6, NATO, the EU, IMF, etc) we can expect that he* will authorize and promote the folowing


MOAR WAR. Trump let Mike Pompeo and the State Dept interfere with any number of other nations, but the one thing I can say in his favor was that -unlike Obama- he didn't start any NEW wars. Biden* will recommit USA troops and proxies to various hotspots like Syria, Ukraine, possibly moving (jihadi and/or Nazi) proxies into Nagorno-Karabakh and other places you can't find on a map and probably don't care about. The ironic thing is that the Democrat party used to be the party of peace; it is now the party of war.

MOAR "FREE" TRADE. Biden* will attempt to negotiate TTP and TTIP-like "free trade" agreements. Fortunately, this must be ratified by the Senate, so there is a possibility of stopping it there.

MOAR SUPPORT OF BANKS Like Obama before him, Biden will shower money on banks without prosecution when they come into trouble (which they will).

MOAR surveillance. Another thing you can say about Trump is that he didn't institute or promote the widespread illegal surveillance that GWB inititated and that Obama greatly expanded.

PERMANENT POWER TO THE DEMS. I expect the Biden* would fail at any attempt to swing power to Dems by - for example- adding DC or Puerto Rico as states, doing away with the Electoral College, and expanding the Supreme Court etc. and that these will be blocked by the Supreme Court, which now has a majority of literalists. Anything that requires a Constitutional Amendment will be referred to the process of amending the Constitution thru Congressional or state ratification.

"REPARATIONS", ONE-TIME assistance. I expect Biden* will advocate for reparations to pander to the indentitarians, and one-time assistance, but will not promote UBI.

Overall, expect to see a RE-EXPANSION OF FEDERAL POWER OVER THE STATES.

The remainder needs more thought.



Oh, and I forgot to add the obvious, it just slipped my mind...

CONTINUED 230 PROTECTIONS FOR INTERNET PLATFORMS ACTING AS CENSORS AND APPLYING EDITORAL CONTROL, UNDER THE GUISE OF "PROTECTING" US FROM "DISNINFORMATION" and

CONTINUED CONTROL OF THE M$M BY DEEP STATE APARATCHIKS UNDER THE GUISE OF "PROTECTING" US FROM "DISINFORMATION"

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 5:25 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SIGNYM:

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism.

SECOND: Thomas Piketty wrote an entire book, Capital and ideology, about all the clever and complicated ways societies can go wrong in economic history. Download the free book: https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=Piketty+Capital+ideology

Piketty is not the kind of person who will simplify things for you, but I am. He is telling governments to NOT allow the greediest citizens to do what they please. Part Two, Slave and Colonial Societies, is full of such stories of greed running free.

I guess Californians don't read Piketty or can't generalize from what they read in order to understand what's happening right in front of them. Look around California at how Uber and Lyft operated and will legally continue to operate. And the ugliest part is that the voters approved it this week: "Big business spent millions to sway Californians’ votes, and received billions in return"
www.marketwatch.com/story/big-business-spent-millions-to-sway-californ
ians-votes-and-received-billions-in-return-11604540224

Voters approved of Uber drivers suffering and Uber stock-owners benefiting from the suffering. Uber understood the ideology of the voters and convinced them it is fair to harm Uber drivers.



Marx wrote a whole THREE BOOKS on the topic, and as far as I can tell Picketty is just rephrasing it for modern audiences. (And Veblen - someone that you previously referenced - wrote about the evils of rentier capitalism.)

So, do you agree that the fundamental problem is a systemic problem of profit, and not a problem of "Republicans" or "Democrats"?

It is crooked businessmen, not the abstract concept of profits, wrecking the American economy. Sorry to tell you, but Picketty convinced me that a business owner can profit either from a slave or a well-paid worker. Which way the owner goes (slave or worker) depends on what kind of ideas are swimming around the owner's head. That's why crooked business owners seek out actual slaves and/or foreign workers who are being treated as slaves in their home country. If crooked owners can't get those, instead they will try to cheat their own employees out of pay and swindle customers. American economic history is a very ugly business, unless the government punishes cheaters and crooks pretending to be morally outstanding business leaders.

Piketty wrote in Capital and Ideology:
From this historical analysis one important conclusion emerges: what made economic development and human progress possible was the struggle for equality and education and not the sanctification of property, stability, or inequality. The hyper-inegalitarian narrative that took hold after 1980 was in part a product of history, most notably the failure of communism. But it was also the fruit of ignorance and of disciplinary division in the academy. The excesses of identity politics and fatalist resignation that plague us today are in large part consequences of that narrative’s success. By turning to history from a multidisciplinary perspective, we can construct a more balanced narrative and sketch the outlines of a new participatory socialism for the twenty-first century. By this I mean a new universalistic egalitarian narrative, a new ideology of equality, social ownership, education, and knowledge and power sharing. This new narrative presents a more optimistic picture of human nature than did its predecessors—and not only more optimistic but also more precise and convincing because it is more firmly rooted in the lessons of global history. Of course, it is up to each of us to judge the merits of these tentative and provisional lessons, to rework them as necessary, and to carry them forward.

If you are dealing with an American businessman who talks about profits, he is crook. There is more than profits to running a business, but most American voters' and politicians' understanding of business goes no further than the extremely simple concept of profit.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 7:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND It is crooked businessmen, not the abstract concept of profits, wrecking the American economy. Sorry to tell you, but Picketty convinced me that a business owner can profit either from a slave or a well-paid worker.
Then IMHO Picketty doesn't understand how money and power work.

A well-meaning business person may make a 3% profit, a crooked business person may make a 10% profit. Eventually, the business with the 10% profit will use that money to springboard either to greater market shares or business acquisitions. Either way, the businesses with the highest profits will evolve over time into monopolies if not restrained. It's an inevitable consequence of our political-economic model. People don't seem to understand, but while many things in nature tend to disperse (like smoke, water, and heat etc) SOME things concentrate, like gravitational objects: the more they get, the more they get.

Money and power acts like a gravitational objects unless restrained: they concentrate rather than dispersing.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 9:27 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SECOND It is crooked businessmen, not the abstract concept of profits, wrecking the American economy. Sorry to tell you, but Picketty convinced me that a business owner can profit either from a slave or a well-paid worker.
Then IMHO Picketty doesn't understand how money and power work.

A well-meaning business person may make a 3% profit, a crooked business person may make a 10% profit. Eventually, the business with the 10% profit will use that money to springboard either to greater market shares or business acquisitions. Either way, the businesses with the highest profits will evolve over time into monopolies if not restrained. It's an inevitable consequence of our political-economic model. People don't seem to understand, but while many things in nature tend to disperse (like smoke, water, and heat etc) SOME things concentrate, like gravitational objects: the more they get, the more they get.

Money and power acts like a gravitational objects unless restrained: they concentrate rather than dispersing.

Money and power are not controlled by anything remotely like physics. You are making it a bloodless abstraction. If you compared it to war you'd have a better analogy than comparing to gravity. So you don't misunderstand, American slaves didn't fall into slavery, they were violently forced. 45 million Americans weren't attracted by a gravitational field into poverty. They were kicked, beaten, fired, and starved into it.
www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2020/demo/p60
-270/Figure7.pdf


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 9:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

American slaves didn't fall into slavery, they were violently forced. 45 million Americans weren't attracted by a gravitational field into poverty. They were kicked, beaten, fired, and starved into it.
By people who had more money ... and power.

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Thursday, November 5, 2020 11:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND: Money and power are not controlled by anything remotely like physics.
I'm not saying that they're controlled by physics. I'm trying to make an abstract idea more understandable thru metaphor. Money IS LIKE gravity.

The reason why I bring this up is because in our everyday experience, entropy rules: Heat spreads out. Dust gets everywhere. Water vapor and smoke diffuses. THINGS SPREAD OUT AND BECOME LESS CONCENTRATED.

So I think that most people believe that "money" and "power" behave the same way ... eventually, they diffuse thru a population.

But money and power behave DIFFERENTLY.

Let me give you a theoretical example: In a population of 100,000, let's say everyone starts out about the same in terms of circumstances. But some people are, perhaps, stronger. Others are smarter. Others are more persuasive or maybe just more vicious. Those people who, through some combination of strength, leadership, viciousness, or what-have-you, will gain a following. Yanno, like a junior high clique. Now among those are some who REALLY have a will to power. They're sociopaths with a laser focus on getting their way. They will use whatever advantage they have to gain more power. With a clique or gang behind them.. possible with some sort of shaman or priest to provide the supernatural imprimatur, they will use that clique or gang to get even MORE power. Iterate that through many generations, and you will get a super-elite who control, basically, everything: the ethics and economy and politics of a society. POWER CONCENTRATES. In the hands of those few who have a laser focus on power, POWER CONCENTRATES IN THE HANDS OF SOCIOPATHS.

Same with money: Some with more money get more money. Most will fritter it away, but there is a small percentage who will springboard that advantage to even greater advantage. MONEY CONCENTRATES. And just like power, MONEY CONCENTRATES IN THE HANDS OF SOCIOPATHS.

The only comparable NATURAL phenomenon is gravity: gravitational mass will attract more mass, which will attract more mass ... Except gravity operates automatically (we think) and power and money are concentrated by willful action.

Going back to society as an organism: Most people just go along doing their best to function in whatever role they have been cast. They simply can't believe that SOME people are actually like cancer cells. Society doesn't recognize these malign interlopers because these malign interlopers are very good at hiding; also, they have convinced everyone that their presence is natural, inevitable, necessary, or even beneficial. Society is warped to make concentrating power and money easier, legal, tolerable. SOCIETY ITSELF WILL PROMOTE SOCIOPATHY.

At that point, it's not a problem of individuals, it's a SYSTEMS problem.

Given that sociopaths arise in every society and gravitate to centers of power like needles to a lodestone, interpolating themselves deeply into government, the media, economy, military, and finance, what should the role of government be?

Capisce?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Friday, November 6, 2020 4:27 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Going back to society as an organism: Most people just go along doing their best to function in whatever role they have been cast. They simply can't believe that SOME people are actually like cancer cells. Society doesn't recognize these malign interlopers because these malign interlopers are very good at hiding; also, they have convinced everyone that their presence is natural, inevitable, necessary, or even beneficial. Society is warped to make concentrating power and money easier, legal, tolerable. SOCIETY ITSELF WILL PROMOTE SOCIOPATHY.

At that point, it's not a problem of individuals, it's a SYSTEMS problem.

Can't spot sociopaths? Malign interlopers are very good at hiding? No, they are NOT good at hiding. I'll give you a really simple example of sociopaths in business releasing methane into the air. One President, I completely forget which one, had EPA rules against methane releases. Another President, I forget his name, but he has a history of being a sociopath according to his niece, withdrew the rules. The businessmen who are sociopaths immediately began releasing more and more methane when the rules changed and enforcement slacked off. Businessmen who are NOT sociopaths did NOT increase their methane releases, even if it is more profitable to dump methane into the air. It is EASY to spot a sociopath, if you understand the world, but if you know next to nothing, you won't see the sociopath.
www.edf.org/climate/methane-other-important-greenhouse-gas

IE Questions: “How Can We Know When Methane Leaks Happen?”
http://insideenergy.org/2017/07/25/ie-questions-how-can-we-know-when-m
ethane-leaks-happen
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 4:58 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Chainsaw Al - sociopath or good guy?

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Friday, November 6, 2020 5:51 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Chainsaw Al - sociopath or good guy?

Sociopath. Chainsaw Al is Albert J. Dunlap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_J._Dunlap

You can read about him in Top 10 Worst Bosses
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2025898
_2025900_2026107,00.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 9:19 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


But he was so successful ... and ... rich ... the kind of person you admire the most.

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Friday, November 6, 2020 9:48 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
But he was so successful ... and ... rich ... the kind of person you admire the most.

How wrong you are, 1kiki. Dunlap is on the lists of "Worst CEOs of All Time" published by several business publications. Dunlap scores impressively on the Corporate Psychopathy checklist and in an interview, Dunlap freely admitted to possessing many of the traits of a psychopath, but considered them positive.

He engineered a massive accounting fraud at Nitec, a paper-mill company in Niagara Falls, New York. An audit revealed inflated inventory and non-existent sales — a situation similar to his later activities at Sunbeam. The board of directors of Sunbeam investigated aggressive accounting practices. Dunlap was fired. As the fraud was further uncovered, Sunbeam was forced a number of times to restate financial results. Sunbeam went bankrupt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_J._Dunlap

It is not profits that are evil; it is profit-seeking crooks such as Chainsaw Al Dunlap and real estate investor Trump that are evil -- long may he live -- in prison. (I have not yet found any Republican voter or businessman that quickly, intuitively, unfailingly understands the difference between an honest profit and a dishonest profit based on polluting the air or financial swindling or overcharging customers, etc. Maybe in Nebraska or Utah or Maine, but I can't find that Republican in Texas. Every Republican I know needs a lawyer to show them the line between honest/dishonest. They can't figure it out on their own for some reason.)

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 12:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND: One President, I completely forget which one, had EPA rules against methane releases. Another President, I forget his name, but he has a history of being a sociopath according to his niece, withdrew the rules.
One President*,(*I forget his name) widely reported to be a sexual predator and pedophile, said I feel your pain then went on to destroy welfare as we know it
One President* pretended to be just like the rest of us and then deregulated the banks
One President* outsourced jobs with "free trade" deals.
One President* legalized commodities speculation.
One President* allowed media monopolization
One President's* DOJ protected the Microsoft monopoly and signed the DMCA
One President* took apart a nation in Europe and broke it into a half-dozen dysfunctional pieces

One President* oversaw the accession of China into the WTO
One President* lied us into TWO actual boots-on-the-ground wars in the Mideast
One President* forgave taxes for the rich
One President* established detention centers and the "enemy combatant" category which allowed mass imprisonment without Geneva Convention oversight
One President* obtained authorization for a borderless, boundary-less war, endless "global war" on ... something
One President* used extraordinary rendition and torture
One President* established a surveillance center in one main AT&T switchsystem by installing a splitter for direct access to AT&T transmissions


One President* (*I forget his name), said he would have the most transparent administration ever, then went on the prosecute more whistleblowers than all other Presidents combined
One President*, (*I forget his name), when faced with a historic financial crisis and opportunity for real financial reform, appointed Wall Street insider, then went on to disgorge TRILLIONS of dollars to the banks .... without a single prosecution for robo-signing and other fraudulent practices
One President, using cooperative NGOs, secret drone wars, the State Department, the CIA and Nazi and/or jihadi proxies, destablizized five nations and created hellholes of misery on three continents
One President* created a secret "kill list" and killed at least one American citizen without trial
One President* expanded the original (illegal) surveillance program to include every American at home and abroad, and built a massive data center for all of that info
One President* attempted to not only offshore American jobs but also cede American authority and democratic process to foreign interests
One President* promised public option healthcare, then signed a plan that would shove Americans into a bloated corporate healthcare system, with a sweetener of tax dollars that only made the hospital corporations and big pharma richer


As you can see, SECOND, although some of our Presidents have done SOME good, they have done FAR MORE to continue to develop and expand a system which inexorably funnels money to the wealthiest, and cede control to the economic elites abroad.

Why do you keep pretending this is all "one side's" fault?

We are at a stage when money rules our government, especially at the national and international level.

This isn't a "President" problem, or a "Republican" or "Democrat" problems, or a "Congressional" problem or "media" problem or even a "deep state" problem, this has become a SYSTEMS problem.

Our entire system: our laws and lawmakers, our media, our ethics, our military, our taxes, our spook agencies, our foreign policy establishment, and most of our NGOs ... every aspect of our lives that nudges or compels us to do one thing over another ... is wrapped around the goal of making the powerful ... more powerful.

SO FAR BEYOND MERE POLITICAL PARTIES.

You start being interesting, and then you go off the rails into your private war on the GOP again.

Sigh.

Keep your eye on the ball, m'kay?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Friday, November 6, 2020 1:20 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

As you can see, SECOND, although some of our Presidents have done SOME good, they have done FAR MORE to continue to develop and expand a system which inexorably funnels money to the wealthiest, and cede control to the economic elites abroad.

Why do you keep pretending this is all "one side's" fault?

We are at a stage when money rules our government, especially at the national and international level.

This isn't a "President" problem, or a "Republican" or "Democrat" problems, or a "Congressional" problem or "media" problem or even a "deep state" problem, this has become a SYSTEMS problem.

Our entire system: our laws and lawmakers, our media, our ethics, our military, our taxes, our spook agencies, our foreign policy establishment, and most of our NGOs ... every aspect of our lives that nudges or compels us to do one thing over another ... is wrapped around the goal of making the rich ... richer.

SO FAR BEYOND MERE POLITICAL PARTIES.

You start being interesting, and then you go off the rails into your private war on the GOP again.

Sigh.

Keep your eye on the ball, m'kay?

You called profit a physics problem comparable to gravity. You also called it a systems problem. It is neither. It's a human problem.

Now I launch into an old man hinting at his career as an engineer. When I was designing control systems for petrochemical plants, the difference between a systems problem and a human problem was always the main thing we think about. The human operators of these plants were not created even approximately equal. Some were attentive and others should never be allowed in a control room. Rather than telling you how I handled that problem, let me point you to something far easier for you to understand: How to keep incompetent, dangerous, suicidal, or drunken pilots away from the controls of commercial aviation aircraft.

There does not exist anything remotely like pilot standards for business CEOs or government officials, which is why many businesses and countries have frequent crash landings that kill their passengers and destroy planes and buildings. Sorry to tell you, but many American CEOs and US Presidents should be grounded and their licenses taking away because they are just too dishonest and incompetent and greedy for the job they are in.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 1:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



I recall you bragging that none of your designs ever blew up because of your superiority in creating good systems.

Did you ALSO make sure they were never operated by incompetent people? Or was your superior design skill the difference between a system that might blow up (other designs) and one that wouldn't (yours) - despite your inability to select capable operators?

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Friday, November 6, 2020 2:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

As you can see, SECOND, although some of our Presidents have done SOME good, they have done FAR MORE to continue to develop and expand a system which inexorably funnels money to the wealthiest, and cede control to the economic elites abroad.

Why do you keep pretending this is all "one side's" fault?

We are at a stage when money rules our government, especially at the national and international level.

This isn't a "President" problem, or a "Republican" or "Democrat" problems, or a "Congressional" problem or "media" problem or even a "deep state" problem, this has become a SYSTEMS problem.

Our entire system: our laws and lawmakers, our media, our ethics, our military, our taxes, our spook agencies, our foreign policy establishment, and most of our NGOs ... every aspect of our lives that nudges or compels us to do one thing over another ... is wrapped around the goal of making the rich ... richer.

SO FAR BEYOND MERE POLITICAL PARTIES.

You start being interesting, and then you go off the rails into your private war on the GOP again.

Sigh.

Keep your eye on the ball, m'kay?

SECOND: You called profit a physics problem comparable to gravity. You also called it a systems problem. It is neither. It's a human problem.

Now I launch into an old man hinting at his career as an engineer. When I was designing control systems for petrochemical plants, the difference between a systems problem and a human problem was always the main thing we think about. The human operators of these plants were not created even approximately equal. Some were attentive and others should never be allowed in a control room. Rather than telling you how I handled that problem, let me point you to something far easier for you to understand: How to keep incompetent, dangerous, suicidal, or drunken pilots away from the controls of commercial aviation aircraft.

There does not exist anything remotely like pilot standards for business CEOs or government officials, which is why many businesses and countries have frequent crash landings that kill their passengers and destroy planes and buildings. Sorry to tell you, but many American CEOs and US Presidents should be grounded and their licenses taking away because they are just too dishonest and incompetent and greedy for the job they are in.

So, first you tell me it's a not a systems problem, and then you give me an example of exactly why it IS a systems problem!

When you designed systems, you took into account the possible ineptitude, inattentiveness, greed, or maliciousness of the humans operating it.

So, look at our political and economic systems. Do they take into account the possible ineptitude, inattentiveness, greed, or maliciousness of the humans operating it?

The Founding Fathers did their best to design A POLITICAL SYSTEM of democratic voting, balance of powers, and so forth, to mitigate the worst of human behavior. They discussed among themselves whether a "large system" (federal) was less corruptible or subject to the tyrannies of prejudice than a "small system" (local). They built in protections so the minority wouldn't be subject to a tyranny of the majority, and placed freedom of speech at the top of the list so that thoughts could compete in the "marketplace of ideas", and gun rights second so that tyranny could not be ILLEGALLY enforced. They weren't as stupid as you think, and a political system WAS designed.

An "economic system" developed but not designed, but it COULD be designed by writing the laws using the POLITICAL system ... which is one of the reasons why the economic elite are so focused on controlling the political system (and the media, because democracies are subject to mass changes of opinion). For example, laws could abolish The Fed, or require 100% capitalization of banks, or do away with stock ownership, or require cooperative ownership, or eliminate "corporations as people", or put businesses and people on the same tax playing field. So you see how the political system COULD, in theory, completely re-design the economic system, taking into account the frailties of human social behavior.

So, put your thinking cap on. You've designed systems. So design a political and economic system that achieves the goals that you set out to achieve: That no American goes hungry or homeless or without medical care. Build in the required sensors and feedback loops to ensure it doesn't go off the rails. Make it durable and flexible, able to withstand natural and social shocks and outside interference.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Friday, November 6, 2020 2:11 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

I recall you bragging that none of your designs ever blew up because of your superiority in creating good systems.

Did you ALSO make sure they were never operated by incompetent people? Or was your superior design skill the difference between a system that might blow up (other designs) and one that wouldn't (yours) - despite your inability to select capable operators?

My secret: automatic safety shutdown systems that can handle anything less than carefully planned sabotage by either a knowledgeable control room operator or a particularly brilliant maintenance electrician. Lucky for me, knowledgeable and/or brilliant people don't tend to become saboteurs. But most of life is unlike a petrochemical plant. The commonplace sociopath CEO or US President do not face competently designed safety shutdown systems protecting the company or country from maleficence for personal profit.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 2:25 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So, look at our political and economic systems. Do they take into account the possible ineptitude, inattentiveness, greed, or maliciousness of the humans operating it?

The Founding Fathers did their best to design A POLITICAL SYSTEM of democratic voting, balance of powers, and so forth, to mitigate the worst of human behavior. They discussed among themselves whether a "large system" (federal) was less corruptible or subject to the tyrannies of prejudice than a "small system" (local). They built in protections so the minority wouldn't be subject to a tyranny of the majority, and placed freedom of speech at the top of the list so that thoughts could compete in the "marketplace of ideas", and gun rights second so that tyranny could not be ILLEGALLY enforced. They weren't as stupid as you think, and a political system WAS designed.

You are wrong about the 2nd Amendment. Southerners couldn't control their slaves without guns. Historians and Democrats say that the 2nd Amendment was to arm militias to put down slave rebellions. Republicans say that the purpose of the amendment was to give citizens the opportunity to kill tyrannical federal government officials. Since slavery ended, the 2nd has no purpose, according to its original meaning and intentions.

How Slave Owners Dictated the Language of the 2nd Amendment
www.thedailybeast.com/how-slave-owners-dictated-the-language-of-the-2n
d-amendment


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 3:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND: The commonplace sociopath CEO or US President do not face competently designed safety shutdown systems protecting the company or country from maleficence for personal profit.
Then what system WOULD?

SECOND, I have a lot of ideas, and you, as a design engineer, should be comfortable with spitballing design ideas too. Why are you niggling about trivia like the 2nd Amendment (which BTW according to even your own statement STILL has a purpose today) when the whole scope of politics and economics is open for discussion?

Why do you keep narrowing the scope of thought? You bring up large, universal ideas (like "human nature") and then try to shoehorn it into already-established and clearly-failing legacy systems.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Friday, November 6, 2020 3:36 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
An "economic system" developed but not designed, but it COULD be designed by writing the laws using the POLITICAL system ... which is one of the reasons why the economic elite are so focused on controlling the political system (and the media, because democracies are subject to mass changes of opinion). For example, laws could abolish The Fed, or require 100% capitalization of banks, or do away with stock ownership, or require cooperative ownership, or eliminate "corporations as people", or put businesses and people on the same tax playing field. So you see how the political system COULD, in theory, completely re-design the economic system, taking into account the frailties of human social behavior.

So, put your thinking cap on. You've designed systems. So design a political and economic system that achieves the goals that you set out to achieve: That no American goes hungry or homeless or without medical care. Build in the required sensors and feedback loops to ensure it doesn't go off the rails. Make it durable and flexible, able to withstand natural and social shocks and outside interference.

When I designed a safety shutdown system, it was built on a cleared field, even if in the middle of another petrochemical plant, and than it was slowly warmed up and started at a low production rate. This American system cannot be redesigned because there is no empty or cleared place to build it, unless you shutdown the old system for a few years while the new is being constructed. Neither party would allow that shutdown. They want either teeny-tiny incremental changes or instantaneous huge changes. But no engineer, maybe not even God, can redesign and build a plant either a little bit or a lot while it is in full production.

Neither political party has Godlike powers to redesign this American system and get reelected every two years until the new system is running smoothly. Long before the big changes go into operation, the voters will throw out a party that tries. If the Constitution allowed elections no more often than every four years, it might be possible. But elections every two years makes it impossible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011

My fear is that both parties will rush to draw the wrong lesson from this close election. The Republicans will conclude that just a little bit more overt racism (but less tweeting about it) will carry the day the next time. They will see the exit polls that called for a “strong national leader,” and they will replace the childish and whiny Trump with someone who projects even more authoritarian determination. They will latch on to the charge that democracy is a rigged game, and they will openly despise its rules even more than Trump has.

The Democrats, for their part, might look at this near-death experience, and, as they sometimes have in the past, conclude that moving left, including more talk of socialism and more social-justice activism is just the tonic they’ll need to shore up their coalition. Some Democrats tend to believe that almost every election confirms the need to lurch to the left, when in fact the 2020 election should be a reminder that Trump would have beaten anyone left of Biden.

More at https://web.archive.org/web/20201104223730/https://www.theatlantic.com
/ideas/archive/2020/11/large-portion-electorate-chose-sociopath/616994
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 3:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND When I designed a safety shutdown system, it was built on a cleared field, even if in the middle of another petrochemical plant, and than it was slowly warmed up and started at a low production rate. This American system cannot be redesigned because there is no place to build it, unless you shutdown the old system for a few years while the new is being constructed. Neither party would allow that shutdown. They want either teeny-tiny incremental changes or instantaneous huge changes. But no engineer, maybe not even God, can redesign and build a plant either a little bit or a lot while it is in full production.
But nothing prevents us from thinking about and discussing what a system should look like.

IF we're going to aim for incremental changes, then it pays to have a goal or vision in mind, otherwise you'll just get blown all over the map.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Friday, November 6, 2020 3:47 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SECOND When I designed a safety shutdown system, it was built on a cleared field, even if in the middle of another petrochemical plant, and than it was slowly warmed up and started at a low production rate. This American system cannot be redesigned because there is no place to build it, unless you shutdown the old system for a few years while the new is being constructed. Neither party would allow that shutdown. They want either teeny-tiny incremental changes or instantaneous huge changes. But no engineer, maybe not even God, can redesign and build a plant either a little bit or a lot while it is in full production.
But nothing prevents us from thinking about and discussing what a system should look like.

IF we're going to aim for incremental changes, then it pays to have a goal or vision in mind, otherwise you'll just get blown all over the map.

You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again. Or go to the stars, transform a planet into another Terra and begin building a new government. Or write a novel, with plenty of details about the government of Mars. I think Kim Stanley Robinson wrote those books.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trilogy

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, November 6, 2020 4:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again.
No, that's idiotic. History tells us that change is possible because systems HAVE BEEN changed, deliberately and by human action. If it were impossible to change systems, we would still be living in tribes, or under monarchies.

Why are you arguing against change?

Anyway, I gotta go. It's been fun.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 6:59 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SECOND You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again.
No, that's idiotic. History tells us that change is possible because systems HAVE BEEN changed, deliberately and by human action. If it were impossible to change systems, we would still be living in tribes, or under monarchies.

Why are you arguing against change?

Anyway, I gotta go. It's been fun.

There is change and then there is CHANGE. Walmart and Amazon and Apple and Ford's model T changed things, but founders of those companies didn't need government permission to exist. Then there is the 13th Amendment. That really CHANGED things for the BETTER, but it was done over the objections of every slave holding state government and only could have happened because most of the slave holding states did NOT have a vote since they had withdrawn from the Union. Read the whole article; don't stop after one paragraph: www.history.com/topics/black-history/thirteenth-amendment

Medium sized changes, smaller than the 13th Amendment and bigger than the iPhone, changes like Social Security and Medicare have to be rammed passed powerful objections and shouts of the Commies are coming. Social Security is 85 years old and people still vehemently object to payroll taxes for it. To change and improve Social Security enough so that the poor can retire on it will require going against the forces that want it shrunk to nothing. To expand Medicare so that the medical establishment will treat everyone, even those without money, will also require huge battles against American doctors and hospitals.

How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries?
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u
-s-compare-countries/#item-start


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 7:47 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins

https://web.archive.org/web/20201106224947/https://www.vanityfair.com/
news/2020/11/donald-trump-no-concession


Donald Trump is taking it as well as everyone had expected, ranting and raving about all kinds of made-up fraud, demanding counts be stopped in one state and continued in others, and filing numerous lawsuits that stand little chance of holding up in court because they have no merit (and, in some cases, have led judges to believe the lawyers attached to them have recently suffered traumatic brain injuries). At this point a quasi reasonable person might say to himself, Okay, I’m going to cut my losses, salvage my last atom of dignity, and admit defeat. But obviously Donald Trump is not reasonable and has no dignity. So instead he’s decided he’ll keep fighting this thing well beyond the point that it’s hugely embarrassing to do so, and even after that fails, refuse to acknowledge that he lost and Joe Biden is going to be president.

Trump apparently thinks he can just go on being president even if he officially loses the 2020 race. According to CNN, Trump reportedly has not prepared a concession speech and “in conversations with allies in recent days has said he has no intention of conceding the election.” The decision to go full delusional has obviously been strengthened by staffers, such as Mark Meadows, who “have not attempted to come to terms with the president about the reality of what is happening” and have instead fed into his claims of fraud; Vice President Mike Pence, who’s been soliciting money for a legal defense fund; and his adult children, who’ve been spouting absurd conspiracy theories on Twitter as they watch the ultimate opportunity for nepotism slip away. While Trump has apparently admitted to some people that he knows the electoral math has no chance of working out in his favor, he has “maintained that a prolonged court battle and corrosive rhetoric about election fraud would sow enough doubt to allow him to refuse to accept the results.”

And while the majority of the president’s inner circle is more than happy to go along with this sad alternative reality, a few members have reportedly grown worried that, eventually, someone will have to explain to Trump that he’s not going to be president anymore—and at this point, it seems unlikely anyone will be able to get through to him short of slapping him across the face and screaming, “YOU LOST!” Yes, this is an actual thing allies of the president of the United States are actually grappling with:

It is a possibility the president did not consider in a serious way during the election, despite polls showing him with only a narrow path to victory, believing that looking past Election Day was bad luck. The delicate matter of a loss—and a potential post-presidential life—was not discussed widely among his team and was not raised often with the president, who believed adamantly he would win.

Now, people around Trump are working to identify who might be able to communicate to him the stark reality. There has been talk of potentially Jared Kushner or Ivanka Trump, though their willingness to lead a difficult intervention wasn't clear.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 9:22 AM

REAVERFAN


I don't eat food or drink water anymore.

I draw all my nourishment from trumptard tears. They are so sweet and yummy!

Trump lost.

Get over it, snowflake!

Fuck your feelings.

Your tears are delicious.

https://twitter.com/copingmaga






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Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins
https://web.archive.org/web/20201106224947/https://www.vanityfair.com/
news/2020/11/donald-trump-no-concession

I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:17 PM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.



How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?

Honestly: Sad to see you be an enthusiastic “truth teller” about COVID and then such a lazy thinker on Trump. Reason?

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SECOND You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again.

SIGNYM: No, that's idiotic. History tells us that change is possible because systems HAVE BEEN changed, deliberately and by human action. If it were impossible to change systems, we would still be living in tribes, or under monarchies.

Why are you arguing against change?

Anyway, I gotta go. It's been fun.

SECOND: There is change and then there is CHANGE. Walmart and Amazon and Apple and Ford's model T changed things, but founders of those companies didn't need government permission to exist. Then there is the 13th Amendment. That really CHANGED things for the BETTER, but it was done over the objections of every slave holding state government and only could have happened because most of the slave holding states did NOT have a vote since they had withdrawn from the Union. Read the whole article; don't stop after one paragraph: www.history.com/topics/black-history/thirteenth-amendment

Medium sized changes, smaller than the 13th Amendment and bigger than the iPhone, changes like Social Security and Medicare have to be rammed passed powerful objections and shouts of the Commies are coming. Social Security is 85 years old and people still vehemently object to payroll taxes for it. To change and improve Social Security enough so that the poor can retire on it will require going against the forces that want it shrunk to nothing. To expand Medicare so that the medical establishment will treat everyone, even those without money, will also require huge battles against American doctors and hospitals.

And then there is BIG CHANGE, usually accompanied by the word "revolution"

The Industrial Revolution harnessed a concentrated source of power - wood and coal, steam power- and turned it into making stuff

The French Revolution deposed the monarchy in France and, after a few Napoleanic twists and turns, instituted a modern nation-state.

The American Revolution, instituted democracy as a form of governance.

The Russian Revolution attempted to institute a fully socialist state,.

Mao's Cultural Revolution transmuted the Chinese culture.

Ya gotta think bigger, SECOND, MUCH bigger!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by CAPTAINCRUNCH:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.



How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?

Honestly: Sad to see you be an enthusiastic “truth teller” about COVID and then such a lazy thinker on Trump. Reason?

Because if you go back to the original source (CNN) - which has a long and storied history of repeating and reporting lies- you will see that all of the assertions ARE UNSOURCED.

VIRTUALLY EVERY statement... "Trump plans", "Trump offered little indication.." is UNSOURCED.

There is not even a fig leaf of "anonymous sources" in the article. The only reference to an ACTUAL SOURCE OF INFO is
Quote:

Two campaign advisers and one source close
and that is linked ONLY TO
Quote:

the President said Trump will exhaust his legal avenues for fighting the results in several key battleground states before giving any consideration to conceding.


And that is what I would personally advise Trump to do. I was disappointed as all hell to watch Al Gore and Bernie Sanders fold like cheap suits.

Comparing the up- and down-ballot votes, it makes no logical sense that nearly ALL of the GOP candidates would win their seats ... representing the vast majority of the election districts in the nation ... but that Trump would lose. And that isn't because of a discrepancy between the GOP Senator vote and the Trump vote (Trump typically drew somewhat more votes than the GOP Senator) ... that pattern is historically and statistically consistent. It's because Biden's vote totals far outstripped the votes for the corresponding Democrat Senators. Unless this is investigated and explained in some robust way, it looks like the vote count was tampered with.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


In the meantime
Quote:

automatic safety shutdown systems that can handle anything less than carefully planned sabotage


I'm sure you'd never back a system with OBVIOUS flaws, SECOND. I'm talking about systems that, due to inbuilt flaws, are designed to inevitably experience catastrophic failure.

So, one of the OBVIOUS flaws of our current system is the lack of sufficient and timely negative feedback mechanisms on positive feedback processes: for example the positive feedback process that money and power aggregate more money and power.

Another OBVIOUS flaw is the fatal flaw of profit, which is like entropy (or friction, its minion): it siphons off productive capability at every step into an unusable form.


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Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

1KIKI - I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.
Quote:

CC - How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?


"Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins" Do you have any evidence this did happen?

Until somebody comes up with EVIDENCE - a concept you all seem to think means 'gossip' or 'I read it somewhere', which it doesn't - I'll file it with 'golden showers' and all the other ridiculous, evidence-free claims you lapped up so eagerly.

BTW - if you look at my COVID thread, you'll find nothing BUT evidence, except where I state a personal opinion, which I clearly identify as such.

I look for evidence at every turn. Do you?


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Saturday, November 7, 2020 5:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Signy: before it disappears here's a link to exit polls NOT from WaPo.
https://edition.cnn.com/election/2020/exit-polls/president/national-re
sults
The nice thing about THIS exit poll is that it looks like it includes all 50 states and Senate votes as well.


Edison Research did the CNN exit poll for CNN, but also ABC, CBS, and NBC in a 'National Election Pool' (link is to info about the National Election Pool http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=63976&p=2 )

Since - like WaPo - the NEP exit poll doesn't deal in totals but breaks everything down by 'demographics', you'll have to calculate totals from the male/ female demographics (like I did with the WaPo poll http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51008&p=17 )

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Saturday, November 7, 2020 8:26 PM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Quote:

1KIKI - I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

Quote:

CC - How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?


"Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins" Do you have any evidence this did happen?

Until somebody comes up with EVIDENCE - a concept you all seem to think means 'gossip' or 'I read it somewhere', which it doesn't - I'll file it with 'golden showers' and all the other ridiculous, evidence-free claims you lapped up so eagerly.

BTW - if you look at my COVID thread, you'll find nothing BUT evidence, except where I state a personal opinion, which I clearly identify as such.

I look for evidence at every turn. Do you?


Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani says Trump won't concede, revives baseless claims of voter fraud
https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/07/jo
e-biden-victory-president-trump-claims-election-far-over/6202892002
/

You don't look for evidence. You merely look for bullshit to support your bullshit positions, Russian troll.

You are an enemy of the United States.



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Sunday, November 8, 2020 3:27 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Because Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins = Trump won't concede ?

Really? What language do you speak again, SECOND?

RF is an idiot. It's that simple.

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Sunday, November 8, 2020 6:18 AM

REAVERFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Because Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins = Trump won't concede ?

Really? What language do you speak again, SECOND?

RF is an idiot. It's that simple.

Your tears are delicious. Please cry some more. Get it all out, you poor little snowflake!

The White House is building a massive 'anti-climb' wall following protests. These photos show the evolution of White House fencing over the years
https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-anti-climb-wall-protests-2
020-7


He plans to hide in his bunker, like another well-known fascist did.

I hand your ass to you EVERY TIME. EVERY time. Every. Single. Time.

I am a patriotic American and you are a Russian troll. You can never win, because I use legitimate information and you are a stupid piece of shit.



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Sunday, November 8, 2020 9:01 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Quote:

1KIKI - I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

Quote:

CC - How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?


"Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins" Do you have any evidence this did happen?

Until somebody comes up with EVIDENCE - a concept you all seem to think means 'gossip' or 'I read it somewhere', which it doesn't - I'll file it with 'golden showers' and all the other ridiculous, evidence-free claims you lapped up so eagerly.

BTW - if you look at my COVID thread, you'll find nothing BUT evidence, except where I state a personal opinion, which I clearly identify as such.

I look for evidence at every turn. Do you?






I never believed or disbelieved the pee story - who knows and who the fck cares. I did think it possible given the outsized greed and appetites of Trump. Have you seen pictures of his Manhattan condo? Gold everywhere. Gold on top of gold. When someone has that kind of gaudy, excessive "taste" how do they keep finding the next fix, the next dopamine high? Extravagance in all things, crossing socially unacceptable boundaries to wallow in the power they have.
Use a thing we call "common sense."

And what would even be evidence you would accept?

- Video? "Fake!"

- Eye witnesses? Do you think anyone would attach their name to those claims? That would be a Vlad death sentence.

- His own words, maybe? "I need you to do me a favor, though..." Nope, not enough.

There's no such thing as evidence you would accept (shhhh... and we all know it).

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Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:03 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Because Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins = Trump won't concede ?

Really? What language do you speak again, SECOND?

RF is an idiot. It's that simple.

Do you remember Trump calling climate change a hoax? Actually, he has said it about 1,000 times. Denying that he lost the election and denying that there is climate change. Everything is a hoax with Trump, even Covid-19. Behind the scenes, Trump has governed as if climate change is a hoax. Rules have been changed. Methane and CO2 are increasing. Behind the scenes, Trump has governed as if losing the election is a hoax. Behind the scenes, Trump has governed as if Covid-19 is a hoax. On Monday morning, his lawyers will be in courtrooms everywhere denying that Trump lost. Trump is not making preparations to leave power, no more than he is preparing for climate change, no more than he has a plan to fight Covid-19.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:06 AM

REAVERFAN




Comment: It's not "media coverage" it's what's fucking happening man. I stood in the exact same spot at the exact same time in 2016 and the mood could not have been more different. People were crying. My whole city was in shock. Yesterday was the biggest party we've ever had. The joy is real.



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