REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Voter fraud - American election vastly corrupted

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Friday, June 2, 2006 09:12
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Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:28 AM

GHOULMAN


It's been a few days and George W. Bush has been declared the winner of the 2004 Presidential election... by the media.

Now the media is commited to "healing" instead of doing thier job - checking for fraud.

In an election that has brought out more Americans to punch thier vote since 1968 it is the shame of America that each and every vote wasn't counted, worse, many votes were simply destroyed in a cruel and fascistic campaign by many Republicans to steal an election they feared would go very badly for them.

It's plain the election is a fraud.

The line-ups for voting were a joke.
The Diebold voting machines are a joke.
The police prevented hundreds from voting.
Voters were prevented from voting at the booths.
Fake lists of people were created to prevent voting.
Poor areas were closed to voting.
Minority areas were closed to voting.
University voting booths were "stolen".

The list of stories about fraud go on and on. You might think these are the usual incidents... but voting isn't difficult, it shouldn't have any problems. If there are problems... THAT'S A PROBLEM! But this logic fails American media who are ordered to support thier man George W. Bush.

Worse... there is no controling election body to officially count votes and insure the count, rather like every other democratic government on the planet. Three Republican dominated corporations control over 80% of the vote count in the United States: Sequoia Voting Systems Inc; Electronic Systems & Software Inc. (ES&S); and Diebold" Inc.

... and the stories keep coming out. The number one issue Americans will not see on thier TVs, but the rest of the world will see, is the incredible corruption of the 2004 US Election.

Your vote didn't count.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 8:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Ghoul. I wish you'd change your avatar. I'm getting an unreasoning negative reaction to pictures of Ron Glass. And I like Ron Glass. I'd like to be able to watch the BDM without flinching every time Book speaks.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 8:05 AM

JASONZZZ


Watch out! The computer you are typing on, that phone line you are using, the stuff that you eat, you wear, your medicine, your mouthwash, that TV set, and your underpants are all controlled by American corporate goons.

You must resist!





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Thursday, November 4, 2004 8:21 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


That DIEBOLD is somethings else

Quote:

...


The ballots are replaced with Diebold electronic voting machines which leave no paper trails
CEO of Diebold INC., “attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors known as Rangers and Pioneers at the president’s Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month.” The next week, he invited guests to a $1,000-a-plate fundraiser for the Ohio GOP at his mansion in the Cleveland suburbs. This is the man whose machines have no paper trail and will be used by at least 8 million voters in the upcoming election. Ohio voters got a jolt when Walden O'Dell, CEO of Texas-based electronic voting-machine maker Diebold Inc. (and a big Bush fund-raiser), pledged "to deliver Ohio's electoral votes to the president." California authorities have said they plan to sue Diebold. Attorney General Bill Lockyer last month said he would sue Diebold, alleging that it defrauded the state with false claims.

Who wants to cast using an E-vote ?
The E vote was thought to speed thinsg up. Linda Schade, a member of TrueVoteMD and the Green Party, begs to differ. While the group failed to block e-voting in Maryland, it is now fighting in court for the right to send monitors into polling precincts around the state.
"The use of paperless electronic voting in Maryland has been marred by serious problems," Schade said. "It is clear these machines need to be watched closely. We now know that in the last election, people received incomplete ballots missing candidates, machines failed to boot, technicians without identification worked on machines making undocumented alterations. The State Board of Elections told the media and the public that the machines worked flawlessly, but since then local boards of elections have reported widespread problems."
Recall this : San Diego County officials were dismayed after the primary to learn that Diebold vote-tabulation software had misawarded thousands of absentee votes for Sen. John Kerry to Rep. Dick Gephardt, who had dropped out of the race.
Vote misshaps-A second location, 1901 W. Girard Ave., Berean Institute, Philadelphia, Pa, had 300+ votes already on 2 machines at start of day before elections began... INCIDENT: 292 votes on machine at start of day; WARD/DIVISION: 7/7: ADDRESS: 122 W. Erie Ave., Roberto Clemente School, Philadelphia, Pa.; INCIDENT: 456 votes on machine at start of day;
Iowa - machines broken down , secretary of state reports malfunctions and computer fatigue.
Exit Polls have NEVER been out of synch with final results, as they were in Florida, and Ohio. It was universal- go to CNN.com, and look at the county-by-county results, as opposed to the exit polls, in the counties that DID use the machines, compared with counties that didn't. And the beauty of it? THERE'S NO PAPER TRAIL- just as folks warned. There's absolutely NO WAY to challenge these results- the opposition has NO recourse.
It's elegant, clean, ingenous

No paper - no evidence



Kerry and Edward's biggest mistake was going against the invisible E-vote Machines without a paper trail - he had no choice but to admit defeat

As predicted:
4 more years for Bush and Cheney ( Mr Apartheid )


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Thursday, November 4, 2004 8:44 AM

JASONZZZ



You can't win with E-Voting. There has to be a way to do it better and still have automation.

1. keep results, paper trail, audit trail. Now the government can track what votes you did, who voted, who didn't, what sides you take. Create some sort of profile so that you can be targeted or marginalized.

2. don't keep audit trail in order to maintain privacy. What now, we can't audit? double voting, vote erasing, vote miscounting.






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Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:26 AM

ZEEK


Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:29 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.



I read that it was actually a black-hat cybernetic hacker alligator. Actually working for OBL and seeking to further destablize our public utilities.






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Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:34 AM

RUXTON


Something like an independent group of citizens, perhaps selected at random like jury members, could be in charge of all U.S. elections. There HAS to be a paper trail, and NO electronic voting, ever.

I well remember hordes of older women tending voting booths in Ohio several decades ago. One would not DARE try to cheat with them on guard.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:45 AM

EMBERS


actually I am more worried about the huge push that was made for people to 'pre-vote' this year.

Half of my small town in Iowa (a swing state) voted by absentee ballot...
which won't be counted for several days...

I heard that 9,000 absentee ballots in Florida (a swing state) were 'lost'

I think there were record numbers of absentee ballots mailed in this year which will never be counted at all, because we have already crowned a king

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 9:57 AM

JASONZZZ



hmmm... which would take us back to hordes of random people with who knows what affiliations touching and retouching the ballots. If not introducing hordes of errors, then same problems with possibilities of fraud.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruxton:
Something like an independent group of citizens, perhaps selected at random like jury members, could be in charge of all U.S. elections. There HAS to be a paper trail, and NO electronic voting, ever.

I well remember hordes of older women tending voting booths in Ohio several decades ago. One would not DARE try to cheat with them on guard.





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Thursday, November 4, 2004 10:20 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
hmmm... which would take us back to hordes of random people with who knows what affiliations touching and retouching the ballots. If not introducing hordes of errors, then same problems with possibilities of fraud.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruxton:
Something like an independent group of citizens, perhaps selected at random like jury members, could be in charge of all U.S. elections. There HAS to be a paper trail, and NO electronic voting, ever.

I well remember hordes of older women tending voting booths in Ohio several decades ago. One would not DARE try to cheat with them on guard.



I tend to agree with JasonZZZ here (Goddess help me)... in Canada we have an independant body whos soul purpose is to manage elections - Elections Canada, which is Gov funded but staffed with Civil Servants who have no party influence or Minister bosses. Completely independant of party or corporate influence.

Here: we vote with paper and pen. Then we count them. It's not rocket science.

Of course, there are volenteers from all the parties who watch the voting but thier hands only ever touch a ballot before one takes it into the little booth to vote. After that it's hands off and only Elections Canada people may touch 'em. These votes are kept, locked away, for recounts if needed.

Which is why the fraud in the USA is obvious. And hey, this is the second time an American election was won by fraud. 2000 went to Gore after all.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 10:35 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.


The media is owned by three monsterous multinational Corproations. Each one a Bush supporter.

Anti-Bush media isn't on TV at least.

Let me muse a little on this concept of so called "liberal media".... shall I?

The "liberal media" charge comes only out of the Republican camp. And it's a lie. This sentement has been used by right wing liars since Nixon. The purpose is to imply a bias on the part of a media that, *pfft*, just parrots whatever belief the Government wants the public to believe anyho'.

Walter Cronkite once said that journalists often report stories from the point of view of the poor and disinfranchiased to offset government excess and pork barrel elite greed. This often brought a charge of "liberal media" from the right wing ... this is the real "liberal media".

So basically, the charge of "liberal media" is based on Republicans skewing the truth about people doing thier job.

Nixon!

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 10:37 AM

RADHIL


Ghoul, I'm very much with Geezer here. Ron Glass is becoming an angry ranting young man in my head. Please stop it.

Voting - by itself - is a very simple thing. Voting across thousands of districts and millions of citizens when both sides are lining up lawyers to challenge everything is not. There will always be problems in any "simple" system scaled to a size that friggin' large with all the checks and balances necessary to get it close to reasonable.

I've watched the election closely. If fraud was as rampant as you say, certain people would be ringing alarm bells very loudly. All I saw was complaints of certain tactics that probably did amount to attempts to slant the election. Some were turned around, some were not. In the end though, none of it amounted to enough to tip the scales - as it could have in the 2000 election.

Diebold Machines certainly are a problem (I'm a techie, I know), but weren't widespread enough - nor could they have slanted and edited every last vote. I've heard the exit poll story - I don't buy it without more proof.

Stop ranting. Start digging. Come back with more than rhetoric you got off a blog.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 10:53 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Radhil:
Ghoul, I'm very much with Geezer here. Ron Glass is becoming an angry ranting young man in my head. Please stop it.

Voting - by itself - is a very simple thing. Voting across thousands of districts and millions of citizens when both sides are lining up lawyers to challenge everything is not. There will always be problems in any "simple" system scaled to a size that friggin' large with all the checks and balances necessary to get it close to reasonable.



Funny, we in Canada never have a problem. Ever. What's Americas problem? hmmmm. Let's imagine...

Look - this is easy. Saying voting is too complex is, frankly, silly. The whole world manages to have votes without any corruption at all every day.

Quote:

I've watched the election closely. If fraud was as rampant as you say, certain people would be ringing alarm bells very loudly.


Who? I've already pointed out that three PRIVATE companies are in charge. That's wrong and frankly - fascistic. It's like giving all your money to a loan shark and hopeing he will be fair with you.

Quote:

All I saw was complaints of certain tactics that probably did amount to attempts to slant the election. Some were turned around, some were not. In the end though, none of it amounted to enough to tip the scales - as it could have in the 2000 election.


There are lots of reports and stories. Just look around the Net. And it's early yet!

Quote:

Diebold Machines certainly are a problem (I'm a techie, I know), but weren't widespread enough - nor could they have slanted and edited every last vote. I've heard the exit poll story - I don't buy it without more proof.


Techie are ya? Well, you might want to come around to the fact that those machines never worked. Were found not to work by a Senate Commitee. Were never believed to be proper by anyone.

Quote:

Stop ranting. Start digging. Come back with more than rhetoric you got off a blog.

This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.

Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 11:00 AM

JASONZZZ



Sigh! Here is the supposedly problem with exit poll disparity as clearly explained.

there isn't any exit poll disparity... The only problem is with media people (sigh) getting early data and stupidly reporting on them as real figures without understanding the reasoning of their inaccuracies.

read the article excerpts that points it out here:

Quote:



To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system operational at 1:33 a.m. yesterday.

The crash occurred barely minutes before the consortium was to update its exit polling with the results of later interviewing that found Bush with a one-point lead. Instead, journalists were left relying on preliminary exit poll results released at 8:15 p.m., which still showed Kerry ahead by three percentage points.

It was only after the polls had closed in most states and the vote count was well underway in the East that it became clear that Bush was in a stronger position in several key battlegrounds, including Ohio, than early exit polls suggested.

Some problems are inevitable. A total of 12,047 randomly selected voters were interviewed Tuesday as they left their polling places, and those results were fed into computers. The accumulated results were reported several times over the course of Election Day.

Results based on the first few rounds of interviewing are usually only approximations of the final vote. Printouts warn that estimates of each candidate's support are unreliable and not for on-air use. Those estimates are untrustworthy because people who vote earlier in the day tend to be different from those who vote in the middle of the day or the evening. For instance, the early national sample Tuesday that was 59 percent female probably reflected that more women vote in the day than the evening.

That is why the early leaks anger Lenski. "The basic issue here is the leaking of this information without any sophisticated understanding or analysis, in a way that makes it look inaccurate," he said.




The article is here, but you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html





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Thursday, November 4, 2004 11:38 AM

RADHIL


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Funny, we in Canada never have a problem. Ever. What's Americas problem? hmmmm. Let's imagine...

Look - this is easy. Saying voting is too complex is, frankly, silly. The whole world manages to have votes without any corruption at all every day.



Without any corruption? Without a single mangled vote? Without one politician trying to edge things their way? You're crazy. Claim it's better off if you like - don't claim the entire world's perfect like that.

I'm not denying we have corruption either. I'm just saying - in this case - it wouldn't have been enough to make a difference.

Quote:

Who? I've already pointed out that three PRIVATE companies are in charge. That's wrong and frankly - fascistic. It's like giving all your money to a loan shark and hopeing he will be fair with you.


In charge of what, exactly? "Voting" is a broad category, you know. The elections and counting themselves are handled and organized state by state, down to the local level. Beyond those levels you have the voting methods themselves. There's no federal overruling mandate to do such and such - the states run their elections, an official from each state reports the results to the feds. The TV stations guess and/or make up crap as they go along. So where exactly do these companies come in and rewrite the entire tree of results?

(fine job they're doin' too, when one state held the whole of the result)

Quote:

There are lots of reports and stories. Just look around the Net. And it's early yet!


Early? It's over. I've seen the reports, as I've said. They amount to stupid people pulling off stupid crap. Not a grand conspiracy. Certainly not a successful one.

Quote:

Techie are ya? Well, you might want to come around to the fact that those machines never worked. Were found not to work by a Senate Commitee. Were never believed to be proper by anyone.


So were punch holes and hanging chads. They still got used. As the saying goes "close enough for government work". I don't like it. I want the Diebold machines outta there too. I've heard all about the studies, thought I don't have figures and facts here in front of me. But then, I'm not making the accusation that everything is rigged.

Quote:

This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.


If it's your opinion, it's awfully familiar.

Quote:

Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!


*rolls eyes* You don't know me son. You don't know how much I care. You don't know who I've argued, shouted at, screamed at, for a different result to this election. You seem to be misrepresenting what *I* say quite well.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 11:42 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Sigh! Here is the supposedly problem with exit poll disparity as clearly explained.

there isn't any exit poll disparity... The only problem is with media people (sigh) getting early data and stupidly reporting on them as real figures without understanding the reasoning of their inaccuracies.

read the article excerpts that points it out here:

Quote:

SNIP!



The article is here, but you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html


... that's a good point, exit polls aren't an accurate measure of voting results.

However...

The discrepincy is rather large. Not even an exit poll should be THAT off. Still, it's no basis for an arguement that there was election fraud.

Jebus, I'm agreeing with JasonZZZ again. Maybe I should put a large obnoxious graphic in my signature too?


Sorry Jason, I just dislike those things. As an old tech support BOFH they make me think of those poor people with modems who will have a hard time downloading that. Get it down to only 15K at least please. Right now it's 40, that's too much. And thanx for a making a real contribution to this thread!

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 11:58 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Radhil:
... SNIP! ...
Quote:

This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.


If it's your opinion, it's awfully familiar.

Quote:

Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!


*rolls eyes* You don't know me son. You don't know how much I care. You don't know who I've argued, shouted at, screamed at, for a different result to this election. You seem to be misrepresenting what *I* say quite well.


Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.

Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.

And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.

It isn't.

Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.

And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.

And the Diebold "voting" machines were incredibably rigged (at least some showed up with hundreds of Bush votes already programmed into them!). Surely as a "techie" you know this is easy to accomplish with those travesties of technology. Right? I've seen the tech info myself but feel free to post it if your into that.

Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Just keep doing what you're doing. Lying, making absurdly ficticious, baseless stories and mindless propaganda is EXACTLY what helped Kerry lose. The Michael Moore, conspiracy nut case folks are going to have to be hog tied and shut away in a closet before the Dems will EVER challenge for either the White House or any real power in Congress.

First it was the Butterfly ballots, and y'all bitched and moaned till a change was made.
Now it's urban legends about the NEW machines. My god, you folks sound like spoiled brats who don't get their way.

Bush won. Kerry lost.

Get over it. Nobody likes a sore loser.

Sore loser.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:46 PM

RADHIL


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.

Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.



Probably not. I *did* say you'd stolen your opinion from somewhere, but only because it seems to be the fashionable thing to do these days - to read something, and then parade it about as true. If the Internet says it, it must be true, after all.

I don't have some example for you - I've simply seen quite a lot of conspiracy theories. And only theories. Yours is certainly a bit more colorful, better written, but still that. A rant with not much more than it's loudness to carry it. A few facts and name drops to spice it up. Not meaning to be offensive there, but that's what I see.

Quote:

And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.

It isn't.

Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.



You seem to have a healthy fear of three corporate companies controlling... "something" about our elections... and yet there's only one entity that controls yours. Interesting.

All right. I bite. How exactly does this Elections Canada control things? What's the trick to eliminating biases? Who heads it up?

Quote:

And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.


Kerry declared it over. The media then when nuts reporting it. They were reporting "Bush's confidence" all morning (and that sure grated my teeth) but that wasn't a finish line. Ohio wasn't even officially called by the news outlets until at least an hour later, when they got better and confirmable info on the provisional ballot question. Call me crazy, but I tend to think Kerry'd be the one to trust on whether or not he lost.

I don't believe the official count has been submitted yet, but there's only so much math you can do.

Quote:

Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.


Is Radhil ever less than friggin' stubborn when there's not a good arguement? Ask around. ;)

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:47 PM

SCORPIUSTOTA


When you can come up with some hard evidence of ANYTHING Ghoul, get back to us. Sheesh.

I can tell you one true story though, I was harrassed at a poll in Cedar Rapids, Iowa by Moveon.org for having a Bush/Cheney sticker on my car. AT THE DAMN POLL. That is against the law, by the way.

Cops called, moveon movedout.

-Scorp

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 12:51 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.

Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.



what conspircy theory???

the Diebold Machines do exsit they were use they don't leave any paper trails and they are owned by 4 corporations that are really one and the same and they have direct ties to the Bush administration

the maker of one of the machines in Ohio said that he was going to personally deliver the 20 votes Bush needed to win...

the fraud is not made up... it was even on t.v where most people get their news where this woman kept selecting Kerry and it would choose Bush

so their is no conspiracy theories..its very real and very factual!!

why do you think they insisted that the machines didn't leave a paper trail..

I understand its very hard for some people to believe that their governmant espeically one they supported is deceiving them and turning facist, but if you turn a blind eye your carving out your on path to hell!!

at least check into it..

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:01 PM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Radhil:
Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.

Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.



Probably not. I *did* say you'd stolen your opinion from somewhere, but only because it seems to be the fashionable thing to do these days - to read something, and then parade it about as true. If the Internet says it, it must be true, after all.



I'm tired of posting links noone reads. You're completely right, it's merely my humble opinion here.

Quote:

I don't have some example for you - I've simply seen quite a lot of conspiracy theories. And only theories. Yours is certainly a bit more colorful, better written, but still that. A rant with not much more than it's loudness to carry it. A few facts and name drops to spice it up. Not meaning to be offensive there, but that's what I see.

Quote:

And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.

It isn't.

Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.



You seem to have a healthy fear of three corporate companies controlling... "something" about our elections... and yet there's only one entity that controls yours. Interesting.

All right. I bite. How exactly does this Elections Canada control things? What's the trick to eliminating biases? Who heads it up?



Elections Canada - http://www.elections.ca/home.asp?textonly=false

They are autonomous.

Quote:

And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.

Kerry declared it over. The media then when nuts reporting it.



Oh? Seems to me Kerry got his information from the media. I could be wrong.

Quote:

They were reporting "Bush's confidence" all morning (and that sure grated my teeth) but that wasn't a finish line. Ohio wasn't even officially called by the news outlets until at least an hour later, when they got better and confirmable info on the provisional ballot question. Call me crazy, but I tend to think Kerry'd be the one to trust on whether or not he lost.

I don't believe the official count has been submitted yet, but there's only so much math you can do.

Quote:

Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.


Is Radhil ever less than friggin' stubborn when there's not a good arguement? Ask around. ;)


lol! Good for you.




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Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:04 PM

GWENHARKER


You're not even American, so why are you critisizing what goes on in our country? Its like the European people who gripe about our elections and stuff. Pointless and useless.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 1:05 PM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ScorpiusTOTA:
When you can come up with some hard evidence of ANYTHING Ghoul, get back to us. Sheesh.



I'm not gonna bore people with links they never read. But there are lots of articles around the Net... you don't need me to find the hundreds of stories out there. And it's the volume of stories that prompted my accusation.

After all, vote counting isn't difficult!

Quote:

I can tell you one true story though, I was harrassed at a poll in Cedar Rapids, Iowa by Moveon.org for having a Bush/Cheney sticker on my car. AT THE DAMN POLL. That is against the law, by the way.

Cops called, moveon movedout.

-Scorp

GOOD for you!

A real American!

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:41 PM

RADHIL


Quote:


Elections Canada - http://www.elections.ca/home.asp?textonly=false

They are autonomous.



Reading up. Gracias.

Quote:


Oh? Seems to me Kerry got his information from the media. I could be wrong.



Kerry's campaign HQ in Ohio would have had a bunch of people side-by-side with local election boards to try and get their own estimates on all votes counted. Their very own system of exit polls, as it were. Not to mention pestering the state office - on phone and likely even in person and on site for real accuracy - for full information on the provisional ballot situation. Not to mention the army of lawyers prepared to unleash all hell if there was a reason to.

Kerry's main HQ would've sucked every factual detail dry from that Ohio office (and they in turn every other person down the food chain) before he made that concession call.

No serious US politician relies on media reports. They find out up front.

This of course highlights it's own problems - namely the US's massive bullshit production and all the crap necessary to avoid it - that you may point out as you like.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:45 PM

JENDANDY


A question for Ghoulman, not to offend, just out of curiousity (plus you can't get angry at someone who knows bugger all about politics, am I right?):

If you're in Canada why do you care so much about what's going on in the U.S.? No country is perfect, not even yours, surely so if you feel so strongly about politics -forgive me if you have before- why don't you start some threads on what's wrong with where you live?

Sig Rebel

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:53 PM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Quote:

Originally posted by JenDandy:
A question for Ghoulman, not to offend, just out of curiousity (plus you can't get angry at someone who knows bugger all about politics, am I right?):
Sig Rebel



ROFLMFAO!!


_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 4:55 PM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's plain the election is a fraud.

Your vote didn't count.



Ghoul, the more I see of you, the more profoundly grateful I am that you are not an American.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 5:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm still curious about what may come out of this.

In 2000 when the news orgs 'called' Florida for Gore (based on exit polls) and the vote very publicly didn't go that way, it couldn't be swept under the rug. So the news orgs got together, went over their polls and data during the next couple of days, and decided that they hadn't actually made any mistakes. It was the discrepancy itself between the exits and the votes that uncovered the problems with the voting. Thousands more people in Florida thought they had voted for Gore. (Somewhere on my computer is the actual data from the study commissioned by the consortium, but that link doesn't work anymore. However, I did find a link to a news article: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html "According to the study, 5,277 voters made a clean punch for Gore and a clean punch for Reform Party nominee Pat Buchanan. An additional 1,650 voters made clean punches for Bush and Buchanan. ... a CNN analysis found that Gore could have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush. Eighteen other counties used another confusing ballot design. .... Gore would have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.)

This time around even the pollsters like Zogby, who were trying to be technically cautious, got blind-sided. The exit-poll v tally discrepancy was not so public this time around, but it was still a problem. Will it be pursued to ultimately determine the cause as was done in 2000?

I suspect the pollsters, whose job IS doing polls, will have an avid financial interest in exonerating (or quietly fixing) the business. But whether they have the clout and money to pursue the issue is another matter.

Have exits become unreliable? Were there other problems? I'm interested in finding out the ultimate answer. The problem is that even if the answers are pursued, they might not be in the public arena.

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Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:25 PM

JASONZZZ



Err... there isn't any exit poll disparity... The only problem is with people (sigh) getting early data and stupidly reporting on them as real figures without understanding the reasoning of their inaccuracies.

read the article excerpts that points it out here:

Quote:



To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system operational at 1:33 a.m. yesterday.

The crash occurred barely minutes before the consortium was to update its exit polling with the results of later interviewing that found Bush with a one-point lead. Instead, journalists were left relying on preliminary exit poll results released at 8:15 p.m., which still showed Kerry ahead by three percentage points.

It was only after the polls had closed in most states and the vote count was well underway in the East that it became clear that Bush was in a stronger position in several key battlegrounds, including Ohio, than early exit polls suggested.


The article is here, but now you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html






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Friday, November 5, 2004 3:18 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JenDandy:
A question for Ghoulman, not to offend, just out of curiousity (plus you can't get angry at someone who knows bugger all about politics, am I right?):

If you're in Canada why do you care so much about what's going on in the U.S.? No country is perfect, not even yours, surely so if you feel so strongly about politics -forgive me if you have before- why don't you start some threads on what's wrong with where you live?



Let's remember - most Canadians prolly know more about the USA than most Americans. We live right on the border as if we truely desire to be as exciting as the USA... and that's true. We get all your media and crap as well as our own. We also pay attention to world news more than Americans. Just saying we are more informed just because we have the best of both worlds.

Canadians are very political by nature. We are a nation of people who talk about two things constantly - the weather and politics.

And I could go on about balless Canadian chrome suckers who bend over for corporate monopolies and the theiving of the resources by Ottawa or the fact Canada is nothing more than "Mexico North".

George W. Bush represents not just a massive shift to the Right Wing, Ronald Reagan did that, but a shift towards open fascism.

Just because FOX doesn't report the beatings, the jailings, and the fraud doesn't mean the USA isn't in a state of fear and repression.

And Canadians care about the USA, we call it "sleeping with the elephant". So don't role over!

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Friday, November 5, 2004 3:29 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
read the article excerpts that points it out here:

The article is here, but now you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html


Hey, I could go and get some article too.
"Is there a connection between VNS closing its doors, the increase use of computerized voting machines, and the growing disparity between pre-election polling predictions and election results - a disparity that appears to heavily favor Republican candidates? Are we witnessing election fraud on a massive scale and is VNS involved?

http://www.rense.com/general33/suspicionsurroundsVNS.htm

It's not like there aren't other opinions out there.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 6:29 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Radhil:
Kerry's campaign HQ in Ohio would have had a bunch of people side-by-side with local election boards to try and get their own estimates on all votes counted. Their very own system of exit polls, as it were. Not to mention pestering the state office - on phone and likely even in person and on site for real accuracy - for full information on the provisional ballot situation. Not to mention the army of lawyers prepared to unleash all hell if there was a reason to.

Kerry's main HQ would've sucked every factual detail dry from that Ohio office (and they in turn every other person down the food chain) before he made that concession call.

No serious US politician relies on media reports. They find out up front.

This of course highlights it's own problems - namely the US's massive bullshit production and all the crap necessary to avoid it - that you may point out as you like.


Great stuff - I wish I could find an insider view of the methods used as you lay them out. If anything it seems a real mess to me. Besides, who actually does the counting? As far as I know, it's the three private companies I mention in my first post.

Thanks for the info. If I find more I'll append to your info. You're the best. Nice work.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 6:33 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
read the article excerpts that points it out here:

The article is here, but now you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html


Hey, I could go and get some article too.
"Is there a connection between VNS closing its doors, the increase use of computerized voting machines, and the growing disparity between pre-election polling predictions and election results - a disparity that appears to heavily favor Republican candidates? Are we witnessing election fraud on a massive scale and is VNS involved?

http://www.rense.com/general33/suspicionsurroundsVNS.htm

It's not like there aren't other opinions out there.



No, there isn't a shortage of opinions or badpress out there. In this specific case, they got (and used) the first batch of data. Preliminary data, together with misunderstanding and bad interpretation, which didn't result in a whole lot of anything. The point is, you can cut the exit poll about 16 different ways along the day, and the instaneous projections would be different at various times of the day depending on weather, voting patterns, school hours, work hours, etc. I wouldn't disagree that at some point in the day, Kerry was in the lead, then another point Bush was, then Kerry, then Bush. We can have a field day talking and arguing about this, and all the while, the papers and the reporters are laughing their heads off.




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Friday, November 5, 2004 7:15 AM

GHOULMAN


Well... more and more this is looking like the largest voter fraud in American history.

Remember, it's far from over.

The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy
By Thom Hartmann
CommonDreams.org
Thusday 4 November 2004
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604Z.shtml

Maybe Florida went for Kerry, maybe for Bush. Over time - and through the efforts of some very motivated investigative reporters - we may well find out (Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org just filed what may be the largest Freedom of Information Act [FOIA} filing in history), and bloggers and investigative reporters are discovering an odd discrepancy in exit polls being largely accurate in paper-ballot states and oddly inaccurate in touch-screen electronic voting states Even raw voter analyses are showing extreme oddities in touch-screen-run Florida, and eagle-eyed bloggers are finding that news organizations are retroactively altering their exit polls to coincide with what the machines ultimately said.

...

Most important, though, the rallying cry of the emerging "honest vote" movement must become: Get Corporations Out Of Our Vote!

Why have we let corporations into our polling places, locations so sacred to democracy that in many states even international election monitors and reporters are banned? Why are we allowing corporations to exclusively handle our vote, in a secret and totally invisible way? Particularly a private corporation founded, in one case, by a family that believes the Bible should replace the Constitution; in another case run by one of Ohio's top Republicans; and in another case partly owned by Saudi investors?

Of all the violations of the commons - all of the crimes against We The People and against democracy in our great and historic republic - this is the greatest. Our vote is too important to outsource to private corporations.


SO it's clear everything I've said has indeed become the centre of American discourse. And now I see why I sound like some Blogger *chuckle*, I'd no idea... really. The only blog I go near is Tom Tomorrow and that's mostly for the cartoons.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 8:43 AM

BOJESPHOB


Quote:

the fraud is not made up... it was even on t.v where most people get their news where this woman kept selecting Kerry and it would choose Bush


You know, for some reason this doesn't jive with me. I think it's because there were SEVERAL web sites that had jokes about this. The Bush button would stay in one spot and the Kerry would move around if you tried to click it. Then, you'd finally get to click on it and it would count it as a Bush vote..... Yeah, ok. Anyhow, one lone lady has a problem voting where it would do that. If that did it to me, I would walk to the people running the polling place and tell them to give me another machine. If it still didn't work, I would ask for a paper ballot. If she were stupid enough not to pursue getting it corrected while she was there, then her vote doesn't count. I have no pity for those too lazy to do anything when it matters the most. But, if it did have issues and they didn't listen to her, THEN there would be a problem, but, for some reason I have the feeling that she kept hitting the wrong button.

And Ghoulman, in reference to your "Americans are repressed" comment, 70% of the people in the US are happy. 20% bitch too much, and, yes, there is about 10% who have been screwed with, messed up, or repressed. Now, that being said, considering back before the Unions started, women AND CHILDREN were FORCED to work in factories with little or no pay!!! Ok, do we have that, now? No! Are things here perfect, by no means! Just like up in the land of the maple leaf, we have issues. But, since we are the center of attention for a lot of things, we are under a whole hell of a lot more scrutiny. Canada can (and probably is) as corrupt as the US, if not more so! You cannot be autonomous, you cannot be unbiased to at least some degree. To be human is to be biased.

I agree with you, there probably is corruption. But you should never count something as maliciousness that which you can attribute to stupidity. Whether it be the polling places that are at fault, or the voters themselves (my personal theory), "Never underestimate stupid people in large groups".

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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:27 AM

GHOULMAN


^^^ 70% are happy? lol! What reality are you on?


Anyho' ...

Watch how fast all the trolls come out to complain that I'm complaining.

KERRY WON. HERE ARE THE FACTS.
TomPaine.com
Friday Nov 5, 2004

by Greg Palast
http://www.gregpalast.com
LINK - http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.
... ...
So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

GO TO THIS ARTICLE FOR YOUR FACTS ... for once, read the damn thing America.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:31 AM

GHOULMAN


And here is a link to a list of stories... there are lots.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/031104votefraud.htm

I finally found a comment from an international elections observer about this pathetic election. You prolly will not hear this on US TV transmitions since the Corporate Media have supressed what the rest of the world has already determined is, by definition, a coupe in the USA... again!

Russian Observer Shocked by U.S. Election Procedures

MosNews | November 3 2004
A Russian parliamentarian taking part in international monitoring of the U.S. presidential elections has said that the elections were held in violation of U.S. law and that that he was shocked after seeing how the elections were held.

The Interfax news agency cited State Duma deputy Aleksei Ostrovsky of the Liberal Democratic Party as saying that he was shocked by the way the elections were held in the U.S.

“In my opinion there are possibilities to forge the elections results and these possibilities are caused by serious, as we see it, violations of the electoral law,” the MP said in a telephone interview.

The parliamentarian noted that primarily he was shocked by the fact that U.S. citizens do not produce any ID as they come to polling stations. “It is enough to say ’I am Mr. Smith,’ and he is allowed to vote; the same person can exit one polling station and go to another and vote again using the same procedure,” the Russian MP said.

Ostrovsky also noted that all Americans who he talked to had said they did not like voting by computer. “Often people simply do not understand how to vote and nobody really tries to explain it to them,” the observer said.

Apart from Aleksei Ostrovsky two more Russian parliamentarians are observing the U.S. presidential elections under the aegis of the OSCE. They are the deputy chief of State Duma’s International Affairs Committee Aleksandr Kozlovsky of the United Russia faction and a member of the Committee for Affairs of Federation and Regional Policy, Leonid Ivanchenko of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:42 AM

GHOULMAN


Since more is what you want.


Foreign monitors barred from some US polling stations: OSCE observer
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041102/pl_afp/us_vote_o
bservers_osce_041102225157

Tue Nov 2, 5:51 PM ET
COPENHAGEN (AFP) - Some observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE (news - web sites)), a Europe-wide security and rights forum, were barred from entering some polling stations in the United States, one of them said.

... SNIP! ...

... and three other delegation members had been well received by local representatives of the Democrat Party who had ensured their access to polling stations.

But Republicans were less welcoming. "We were denied entry to a local Republican office in Orlando," she told Ritzau: "They called the police, saying they had received guidelines from Washington to do so."

The OSCE team was invited by the State Department.


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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:43 AM

JASONZZZ



Wasn't there bitching about people who were "forced" to produce ID?

Now there is bitching about people who were free not to show them?

Which way do you want it?

Here where I vote, you have to show proof that you are registered & eligible to vote, also that you are who you say you are. Then they check your name off the roster and you can't vote again (that is more than once).







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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:48 AM

BOJESPHOB


What am I on? It's called reality. I live in the heartland of America, in that great state that that reporter said "voted for Kerry", Ohio. I am surprised that Kerry got as many votes as he did. I have relatives and friends across the state, and no where (except Cleveland) were there anywhere near as many Kerry signs as there were Bush signs. I have a whopping total of 12 people that I personally can vouch for that I know voted for Kerry. EVERY single person I know otherwise voted for Bush (or like myself, for somebody other than those two). So, if the rest of the state were like all of the people I know, Bush would have won the state with more than 80% of the votes.

Quote:

The parliamentarian noted that primarily he was shocked by the fact that U.S. citizens do not produce any ID as they come to polling stations. “It is enough to say ’I am Mr. Smith,’ and he is allowed to vote; the same person can exit one polling station and go to another and vote again using the same procedure,” the Russian MP said.

This is not exactly true. You have to be registered in a precinct to be able to vote. You cannot just walk in and be able to do so. Also, they have your signature on file, and if your signature does not match, then they ask for an ID. This process is not just one night! To register, you actually have to physically live in the precinct that you live in. There are times when there are issues with that process, but it really is difficult to get away with voter fraud (from the voters prospective) here.


Quote:

“Often people simply do not understand how to vote and nobody really tries to explain it to them,” the observer said.

Now, honestly, who's fault is this? There are pamphlets, papers, websites, TV commercials and you can even call the local election board to figure out how to vote. I think I said it earlier, if you don't care enough to understand what you are doing, why should anyone care if you don't do it correctly?

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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:53 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
The parliamentarian noted that primarily he was shocked by the fact that U.S. citizens do not produce any ID as they come to polling stations. “It is enough to say ’I am Mr. Smith,’ and he is allowed to vote; the same person can exit one polling station and go to another and vote again using the same procedure,” the Russian MP said.




Not where I voted, in Virginia. Picture ID required and name checked against the registered voter list. Also had to tell them your address, which they checked against the list. A Republican and a Democratic poll watcher were sitting behind every table closely monitoring the entire process.

Anybody run into this anywhere else?

Also note the wikipedia info on the Liberal Democratic Party.

Quote:

The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an extreme right-wing political party in Russia. It has been led by Vladimir Zhirinovsky since its founding in 1990, as the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union. Policies include the re-annexation of the Soviet Republics, defaulting on all external loans, and the abolition of Russia's federal system in place of 15 provinces with appointed governors.



Guess even Dubya isn't right-wing enough for them.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 5, 2004 9:54 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Wasn't there bitching about people who were "forced" to produce ID?

Now there is bitching about people who were free not to show them?

Which way do you want it?


If people are bitching about that they are simpletons. Also, I found no story like that one so it's news to me. Feel free to post any stories you find though.

Of course, I've been known to take on articles posted here more than once and easily demonstrate thier lies. So choose carefully.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 10:03 AM

BOJESPHOB


Ghouly, you take our media WAY too seriously. Who cares about articles about what people pretend to know?? There are no articles about people bitching about having to show ID, but there are people who WERE bitching about having to show ID! Just because it wasn't in an article doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live right in the thick of it, and it happened. You only see what the media WANTS you to see, not necessarily what happens. I stood in line for 45 minutes to vote, because the polling people were ensuring that the people who were coming through the line were who they said that they were! Why go to the media, you have a LOT of REAL people who actually EXPERIENCED this process and we are telling you it's not as bad as it's made out to be!

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Friday, November 5, 2004 10:04 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
SNIP!!!
Also note the wikipedia info on the Liberal Democratic Party.

The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an extreme right-wing political party in Russia. It has been led by Vladimir Zhirinovsky since its founding in 1990, as the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union. Policies include the re-annexation of the Soviet Republics, defaulting on all external loans, and the abolition of Russia's federal system in place of 15 provinces with appointed governors.


Guess even Dubya isn't right-wing enough for them.


That Wikipedia is crap, I won't accept information from a website created by submissions. Where is the profesional? The Editor? There ain't none!

Having said that, the Russian Liberal Democratic Party is a nutty bunch. Geezer is quite right.

It's the only comment from an international observer of the US election I could find! Can't even find the Canadian observers comments anywhere. Guess the Right Wing Corporate propoganda in Canada is still working (*looks over shoulder*) .... yep, still there.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 10:24 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bojesphob:
Ghouly, you take our media WAY too seriously. Who cares about articles about what people pretend to know?? There are no articles about people bitching about having to show ID, but there are people who WERE bitching about having to show ID! Just because it wasn't in an article doesn't mean it didn't happen. I live right in the thick of it, and it happened. You only see what the media WANTS you to see, not necessarily what happens. I stood in line for 45 minutes to vote, because the polling people were ensuring that the people who were coming through the line were who they said that they were! Why go to the media, you have a LOT of REAL people who actually EXPERIENCED this process and we are telling you it's not as bad as it's made out to be!


Actually - it's the English media. Who you may take more seriously than the American "Corporate Media".

Anyho'...

A lot of really respected and well researched articles and essays are written. It's true it's difficult to determine which ones are "truthful" and which ones are not.

You can never know 100% of the time, but you can decide for yourself if the information is true. There are sources of news that are trustworthy and they are called journalists.

Check who the writer is - Is the writer a flake or a respected professional?

Check footnotes/sources - if the article doesn't quote people or show the origin of facts and just spews an opinion you can bet it's a lie or, at least, merely an opinion.

It isn't popular in the USA, but around the world actual JOURNALISM is taken very seriously. There are people commited to the pursuit of the truth. This should be in stark contrast to the trend in the USA for people to simply sit in front of a camera all day spitting out the Republican morning "fact sheet".

Someone like Robert Novak (Washington Post) who not only refuses to speak even the smallest truth about Bush/Cheney but is a traitor who recently revealed the identity of a CIA agent in a fascistic effort to support Bush.

SO I can reject everything from Novak as he has proved himself to be a sleazy liar. Same for Christopher Hitchens.

So it's a matter of figuring who the information comes from, do you trust them, are thier sources reasonable, and do they have quotes from people who actually know/were there. Once you have these you can safely go on to form an opinion. I also recommend not forming a complete opinion on a subject unless you have seen this information/story confirmed from at least three different independant sources.

Such as Micheal Moores F9/11 - I can say it's truthful because Mike has not lied to me before and has impressed me with his work. F9/11 won the most prestigious prize a film can win - Cannes Palm D'Ore. And most importantly, Moores accusations about the Saudi/Bush connections I've seen on Canadian TV, European docs, and those before I saw F9/11. So when I finally saw F9/11 I wasn't surprised and I was comfortable believing it to be accurate.

Thanks for asking.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 10:26 AM

BARNSTORMER


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
SNIP!!!
Also note the wikipedia info on the Liberal Democratic Party.

The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is an extreme right-wing political party in Russia. It has been led by Vladimir Zhirinovsky since its founding in 1990, as the Liberal Democratic Party of the Soviet Union. Policies include the re-annexation of the Soviet Republics, defaulting on all external loans, and the abolition of Russia's federal system in place of 15 provinces with appointed governors.


Guess even Dubya isn't right-wing enough for them.


That Wikipedia is crap, I won't accept information from a website created by submissions. Where is the profesional? The Editor? There ain't none!

Having said that, the Russian Liberal Democratic Party is a nutty bunch. Geezer is quite right.

It's the only comment from an international observer of the US election I could find! Can't even find the Canadian observers comments anywhere. Guess the Right Wing Corporate propoganda in Canada is still working (*looks over shoulder*) .... yep, still there.





Jesus Christ, what a bunch of left wing wack job whiners.

Bush won the f*cking election.
No conspiracy
No Evil Empire

GET OVER IT!!!!!!!

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Friday, November 5, 2004 10:38 AM

RUXTON


You want proof of voting fraud, that would, indeed, swing the election? Go here, NOW:

whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/exit_poll.gif

(Sorry. Don't know how to post a link.)

Just add a "www" to that, or paste it into your bar. Most browsers automatically add the needed stuff.

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Friday, November 5, 2004 10:53 AM

GHOULMAN


^^^ What the? Edit please?

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