REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I will never fly in this country again.

POSTED BY: DRAGONWINE
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 05:39
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VIEWED: 2247
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Sunday, November 28, 2004 8:18 AM

DRAGONWINE


Where will it end. We cower in fear and hand over all our freedoms.

My brother served 2 years in the army, stationed in Germany with tours in Afghanistan and Kosovo.

Now he works as a baggage handler at a Southern California airport which I will never go to again.
According to my brother the second you hand over your luggage it is no longer your property, it's his. The TSA is just a new form Gestapo...Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia are alive and well right here. Whats next, check points and people stopping us on the sidewalk to see our "papers"?.
All hail the Department of Homeland Insecurity. I sure don't feel safer, do you?

In my brother's words he feels like God, but really he's just a high school drop out who mangaged to get his GED then had to join the army because he couldn't hold a job. LOSER! With a god complex!

And of course this new pat down that is all over the news. If your are a loser or pervert that likes to grope people, in public, and get away with it....not to mention paid...then we have the job for you. I feel sorry for the women who have perhaps been previously molested our violated and yet have to relive it all over again.....at the airport!! I also feel sorry for those in this job who find it just as uncomfortable....my advice....get another job!! I wonder if they stop at adults or will we all be subjected to wonderful displays of public child molestation. I can see Michael Jackson dusting off his resume right now. Well I'm not prepared to take that risk, my 9 year old daughter will not fly again either.

Due to high crime, and the criminals that seem to have more rights than your common citizen, we are somtimes prisoners in our own homes...homes we are not allowed even to defend. Now due to faceless terrorists we are prisoners in our own nation. And since we can't sem to find the terrorists out there we will just have to find them here, whether they're here or not.

It's no longer a country of the free, unless you can afford it. This is a contry of the demeaned, violated and subjagated (damn where's spell checker). And by now any that have read this far will be suggesting I go find a better country.....can't, this plague is worldwide. We are doomed, who's flying this thing?

In any event, thanks for letting me rant. This Thanksgiving has been, for me, quite the living hell.

-----------------------------------------------
It's a nothing part til you don't got one, then you have to go to ebay.....aaaaagh!

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:14 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by dragonwine:
Where will it end. We cower in fear and hand over all our freedoms...


I can't quite see things as grimly as you've painted, but it is getting worse. "Living hell" though? I can think of a few other places in the world that might make a more valid claim to that. (Iraq, or Afghanistan perhaps?)
Quote:

Originally posted by dragonwine:

..We are doomed, who's flying this thing?



Oh right, that would be us. Seriously, we've really moved past the place where we can complain that our government doesn't represent us. If we're going to change direction we're going to have to convince the red states that things need to change. They seem to like the Gestapo approach so far.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 4:37 PM

DIETCOKE


I gratefully give up some freedoms to ensure that the plane I'm flying on doesn't have a bomb on it.

As for your bags not being yours once you check it? I think it's great. Once again, let's make sure no one is checking a bomb.

We are at war and there are many people living in our country that want to terrorize us. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 4:51 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by dragonwine:

And by now any that have read this far will be suggesting I go find a better country.....can't, this plague is worldwide.



Actually, this is pretty much only in the US. I know for a fact that in Canada, we've turned down *many* 'suggestions' that the US has 'asked' us to do with regards to these types of things.

On a similar note, there is clearly a large schism between the US and the rest of the world. I've been watching it for about a decade now and the gap has just gotten larger (especially in the past couple years).

I expect this to continue. And I thank all the world leaders for there wisdom in creating and continuing this.


But, I definitly respect your decision not to fly again. After all, there's the train and bus. And if you want to go worldwide you could go to Canada or Mexico and fly from there.

Best of luck for a better week

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Sunday, November 28, 2004 4:55 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@dietcoke:
"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin 1706 - 1790

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, November 29, 2004 2:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


"Give me Convenience or Give Me Death."
-The Dead Kennedys - 1987

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 29, 2004 5:52 AM

WILDBILL


So the red states like the Gestapo approach? What a load of crap. Where exactly in red states are all the kick-ass SWAT teams? Metropolitan areas - those little islands of blue counties in seas of red (and blue in blue). Surveillance cameras? No knock warrants? Blue and blue.

About two years ago, former Vice President Gore was searched twice while travelling by air. If this doesn't paint the TSA as a bunch of morons, I don't know what will. The man was at the highest level of government (and did a great guest spot on Futurama) and he gets searched. Morons. I may never fly again.

To the pissing and moaning brigade: If you pot-smoking hippies ever decide to do something constructive instead of joining hands, writing poetry, sending positive energy all over the world, etc., why not help make certain that the provisions of the Patriot Act that are due to sunset actually do sunset or try to repeal the whole stupid thing.

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Monday, November 29, 2004 7:24 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

...Convenience...



What convenience?

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, November 29, 2004 7:34 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

If you pot-smoking hippies...



I love it when people call others "pot-smoking hippies" as attempt at an insult, when that movement had many benifits. Ones that are being taken away right now... at least in the US.


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

...ever decide to do something constructive instead of joining hands, writing poetry, sending positive energy all over the world, etc.,



And how is this not constructive? Sending the message of love instead of dropping bombs is always a good thing. It's just not the only thing one should do.


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

...why not help make certain that the provisions of the Patriot Act that are due to sunset actually do sunset or try to repeal the whole stupid thing.



Of course this should be repealed. But, people have tried to get the word out on this before and the people that would even listen were few and far between.

Of course this is something that should be done and is a wonderful idea in theory. But in practice, how receptive has GW been to protests, etc in the past? He said (paraphrase), "I don't base my policies on focus groups." when speaking about the *mass* protests against the current Iraq invasion. So, what'd you think he's going to say about a little lobbying about some obscure law that most don't even know what it does?

On a last note, perhaps you should word things in a... less aggressive tone. You catch more flies with honey...

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, November 29, 2004 7:57 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Should we really be surprised that the guy who emulates Jayne is going to say anything different?

The "pot-smoking hippies" aren't the ones doing anything about the patriot act anyway. They don't do too much in the political arena.

There are plenty of people (rep's and dem's, mainly dem's) who are working to repeal the patriot act though. It seems when you realize that talking about things is doing something, then you will realize that you've already joined what you so affectionately call the pissing and moaning brigade. By telling other people to stop their moaning, you've joined them. Ha ha.

Fortunately, for the majority of the world, we realize that we're just having a normal discourse, (we're educating and changing perspectives... a very important thing) so we aren't really threatened by name-callers, who call others names in an effort to get them to stop expressing opposing views. It's ones of the devices used by weaker debaters in their attempt to win an argument.

I like that Ben Franklin quote too. I was actually thinking it in my mind when I read one of the first posts, then I saw it posted... coincidence? I doubt it.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Monday, November 29, 2004 8:06 AM

SIGMANUNKI


@ManiacNumberOne:
Indeed

Yah, I've gotten a lot of milage out of that quote lately. < sarcasm > No, it couldn't be because of GW being in power. No, not at all < /sarcasm >

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, November 29, 2004 10:30 AM

WILDBILL


And my humorous tone is taken as aggressive. In the future I'll remember to mark all my hyperbole as such so that it's understandable to pot-smoking hippies (hyperbole!).
I must disagree that sending the message of love instead of dropping bombs is always a good thing. In some rare cases, dropping bombs is a very, very good thing - like dropping them on Nazis, for instance. I don't equate being civilized with being a 100% pacifist.

But I digress. If you join hands, sing, and march with a banner, you'll achieve nothing for sure. If you keep trying to get the word out about issues to people who are disinterested there's a very slim chance of success.
I'll choose the second course of action over smoking dope and bad-mouthing my country (hyperbole!).

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Monday, November 29, 2004 11:25 AM

TETHYS


Better to get felt up (I never complain ) than get blown up

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

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Monday, November 29, 2004 11:56 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:
And my humorous tone is taken as aggressive. In the future I'll remember to mark all my hyperbole as such so that it's understandable to pot-smoking hippies (hyperbole!).
I must disagree that sending the message of love instead of dropping bombs is always a good thing. In some rare cases, dropping bombs is a very, very good thing - like dropping them on Nazis, for instance. I don't equate being civilized with being a 100% pacifist.

But I digress. If you join hands, sing, and march with a banner, you'll achieve nothing for sure. If you keep trying to get the word out about issues to people who are disinterested there's a very slim chance of success.
I'll choose the second course of action over smoking dope and bad-mouthing my country (hyperbole!).



I didn't see what you were saying as aggressively humorous, nor an extreme exaggeration of your point of view. I see no one one this site holding a banner or marching or singing. I see people talking.

Your second method to try to get people to stop talking about issues will be as ineffectual as your first, because I'm gonna point out what you're doing.

You are trying to persuade people that's there's no audience for what they have to say and they they shouldn't be saying it. NOT true. The audience is there, it's very large, and that apparently angers you. You will likely not admit to this very large audience existing. It's obvious that you are still trying to equate things that don't go together. Such as being a patriot (and speaking out to change our country for the better) and smoking dope. If your apparent position of conformity with the government is so strong, it should be able to withstand a little opposition.

Every citizen, regardless of what you may think, has a right to speak out on issues. How about you recognize that you're trying to tell people to stop expressing themselves and their ideas?



-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Monday, November 29, 2004 12:18 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

And my humorous tone is taken as aggressive. In the future I'll remember to mark all my hyperbole as such so that it's understandable to pot-smoking hippies (hyperbole!).



Last time I checked, calling something a "load of crap", calling the "TSA as a bunch of morons" and calling the people here the "pissing and moaning brigade" and proceed to attempt to generally insult the people in this thread isn't humorous, it's aggressive.

If you indeed intended this as humour then you should really consider including emoticons in your posts and watch your words. It is the only way that we can let people know how we're speaking. Otherwise you leave it up to the people to impres upon your post how they think you are saying it. And that can (example here?) lead to misinterpriations.


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

I must disagree that sending the message of love instead of dropping bombs is always a good thing. In some rare cases, dropping bombs is a very, very good thing - like dropping them on Nazis, for instance. I don't equate being civilized with being a 100% pacifist.



Did I say that that is the only thing to do? No, I said that it is always good. I say that it is always the first step. Does that mean that I think it is the only one? No!

And dropping bombs is *never* a good thing. I may be a necessary thing, but *never* good.


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

But I digress. If you join hands, sing, and march with a banner, you'll achieve nothing for sure.



Well, last time I checked my history books, people that became violent in protest were pointed out by the people in charge to say that this or that movement is nothing but a bunch of radicals, so ignore them.

And you do acheive things by protesting. You get the message out. If the protests are big enough, it can sway governments. One need only look as far as the Vietnam protests in your own country to prove this true.

But then again, there must be someone in charge that'll care. And GW has already stated that he doesn't. So, what happens now?


Quote:

Originally posted by wildbill:

I'll choose the second course of action over smoking dope and bad-mouthing my country (hyperbole!).



You know, if you stopped being such an ass, people might take you seriously.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, November 29, 2004 2:42 PM

SERGEANTX


Wow, I was going to respond to Wildbill, but after Maniac and SigmaNunki... there's not much left to say.

Wildbill, I do apologize for comparing the Republicans to the Gestapo. That was uncalled for and not supported by the facts.

And thanks for bringing up the Patriot Act. I've been involved with a group working to bring things back in line with reasonable privacy rights.

http://www.bordc.org

It's a great place to start for anyone interested in taking some productive actions to protect our rights. Pot smoking hippies are welcome! as are liberty minded Republicans and Democrats. Sunsetting the more extreme measures of the act, and preventing Patriot II, are by far more important issues than partisan bickering.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, November 29, 2004 4:36 PM

TETHYS


Bahhhh..we all have a RIGHT to our opinions. Then again..we all have the DUTY to respect

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

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Monday, November 29, 2004 5:54 PM

WILDBILL


Guilty as charged - of being an ass, that is.
I must take issue, however, with having an "apparent position of conformity with the government". For the record: I am opposed to the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, Federal Withholding Tax (the IRS), Gun Control, and Property Tax, among other things. (No, I don't live in backwoods Montana.)

One of my points is that being politically active among people who think the same as you (like at a protest) gets you nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling. 60's style protesting doesn't work anymore anyway - people just figure "there are those crazy pot-smoking hippies again" - it's as if a tolerance has been built up.

Engaging people who are active but don't see eye-to-eye with you (like here, I guess) has merit in keeping the old mellon active, but the real pain-in-the-ass is getting people who don't care to care about important issues. My attitude is to keep trying, even though its seems like I'm beating a dead horse.

For example: Point out the airport strip searches, security cameras everywhere, that everyone's credit purchases are in data bases somewhere (wherever you use a "club card" even when paying cash), also what books you read, what movies you rent, etc., then ask if they want the government to have access to it all.

One more thing for the record: I really like the pot-smoking hippies of the cute "free love" variety - except for the hairy armpits.

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Monday, November 29, 2004 6:49 PM

DRAGONWINE


Back by popular demand.
Amazing how such a little rant can spark so much.

In any event, the TSA (Totalitarian Subjugation Authority) or Tough Sh*t America: We can do what we want and you can't stop us. Brought to you by the Dept of Homeland Insecurity. It all makes me feel so much safer knowing my luggage is being ransacked and my family and other innocent citizens ( oops, that's potential terrorists) are being demeaned and groped with utter impunity.

What can I say. No one can destroy the people, society, freedoms, or this nation, better than us. We need no help from anyone, we can do it ourselves. And our downward spiral goes merrily on.

It's a nothing part til you don't got one, then you have to go to ebay.....aaaaagh!

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Monday, November 29, 2004 6:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


We are all free, as long as we obey.

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Monday, November 29, 2004 8:04 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Dragonwine:
And some people think that they actually know why there hasn't been a terrorist attack since 9/11. It's because the US is doing the job of the terrorists. So, why bother when your enemy is doing your job for you? Terrorism instills terror, but if the people are still terrified...

@Rue:
True, true, very true.


----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:39 AM

WILDBILL


Good point. The goal of 9/11 wasn't to kill a few thousand people - the killing was a means to an end.
What exactly is that end? It probably won't be clear for decades. Running around in circles is likely part of it.

I heard somwhere that "AlQeida" (however it's spelled) is the Arabic translation of "Foundation" (Asimov's series). If there is an analogy, than the organization was meant to pick up the pieces after a world war, which it sees as inevitable and helps start. Has anyone else heard this theory? It seems a little out there.

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