Thank Joss for Subtext (aka. Ho!Yay!)

POSTED BY: JaynesGirlfriend
UPDATED: Thursday, December 21, 2006 00:46
VIEWED: 28885
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JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Tuesday, October 8, 2002 6:38 AM

Yay! I get to start the thread celebrating the homoerotic subtext on the show! Cause why the heck should the posters at Television Without Pity have all the slashy fun.

So lets just get a few of the basic truths of Firefly out of the way.

1. Simon is gay.

2. Simon is really, really gay and has a huge crush on Captain Tight Pants.

3. Jayne just wants to be loved. By Simon..or Mal. Hell, pretty much anyone but Book and even that's negotiable. (C'mon, its Jayne we're talking about here.)

4. Kaylee and Inara were never talking about hair.

5. Simon is extremely gay.

Warning: In this thread we'll be talking about the possibility of relationships among crew members of the same sex. Its a big, gay party and if that doesn't float your boat, please, leave us in peace in the gutter. For we are happy here.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

ZICSOFT

Tuesday, October 8, 2002 4:41 PM

I'm not sure "subtext" is the right word. But it is true that Whedon has some interesting insights into the whole sexual identity thing, and is good at mining them for humor, irony, and the odd subplot. Which is just good storytelling, unless you a person who gets all crazy at the slightest implication of "deviance."

Which makes me wonder why we haven't heard more from the God Hates Fags types. I would have thought they'd be mounting a campaign to have Joss Whedon run out of Hollywood by now. I guess intolerance isn't as popular as it used to be.

Anyway, I'm sure that at a certain level, there's something to all your homoerotic "truths". There always is. But at the surface level, where the official stories get told, I think everybody is pretty thoroughly heterosexual.

Yeah, I know, Mal seems to think Inara is a gay. That's just his way of avoiding his own infatuation with her.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 6:59 AM

Jeez, Z, leave it to you to suck all the fun out of imagining the crew of the Firefly in massive gay orgies.

Of course the case for the true existence of subtext is made stronger by the fact that this is a Joss show. Joss himself has said that almost all of the relationships on Buffy are romantic in nature at some level, so it just stands to reason that the same would be true of Firefly. In fact the gay subtext surrounding both Kaylee and Inara has been so thick it can hardly be called sub anything. Even if they never have a homosexual relationship on camera the subtext will still be there.

And if the followers of Ho!Yay! are really, really lucky, yummy slashy fan fiction will be written.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Jeez, Z, leave it to you to suck all the fun out of imagining the crew of the Firefly in massive gay orgies.

OK, my sexual preference is usually not a subject of online discussion. But I have to say: ewww! Or as Xander would say, "That's a scary place to go."

I did find that scene last week very funny. You know, the one where the girl says, "Did everybody at this table sleep with each other?" And Spike and Xander look at each other nervously.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

LOONYTOON

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:11 PM

Not everybody is gay, you shouldn`t contort the show to appeal to a very small minortity. And by the way, I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature. Give it a hundred years, you will most likely be killed off as evolution is not kind to those that cannot procreate(morally, at least).

an armed society is a polite society

HJERMSTED

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:29 PM

Quote:

but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature.

Actually you are mistaken. There are all kinds variations in sexual behavior in the animal kingdom. I'm no zoologist, but I do remember learning about a species of ape that was fully bisexual. I was also surprised to learn dolphins tend to hump everything that moves whether it is also a dolphin or not.

CHARLIEBLUE

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Not everybody is gay, you shouldn`t contort the show to appeal to a very small minortity. And by the way, I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature. Give it a hundred years, you will most likely be killed off as evolution is not kind to those that cannot procreate(morally, at least).

Actually, homosexuality is well-known among other animals.
http://www.geocities.com/baggylevis/gay_nature.html

Also, not only gays can enjoy a show featuring gay people. I am not a thief, but I enjoy a show about thieves; I'm not a woman, but I enjoy several shows about women. I also enjoy a show about space ships, and they are most certainly unnatural.

And as for homosexuality being selected against, I direct your attention to sickle-cell anemia. Its victims die out, yet the disease persists. Why? Because the gene that creates it is beneficial in some circumstances.

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
but I know the homosexuals are unnatural

You know, you're going to have to either learn to live with "unnatural" people, or give up on being a Joss Whedon fan. It's not that he has that many gay characters (though probably more than you would care to see). But he does do a lot of stories that play on issues of sexual identity. It's subtle enough that most people don't notice -- but now that you know what to look for, you'll probably see it all the time.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBlue:
[Also, not only gays can enjoy a show featuring gay people. I am not a thief, but I enjoy a show about thieves; I'm not a woman, but I enjoy several shows about women. I also enjoy a show about space ships, and they are most certainly unnatural.

If God had meant us to go into space... hmm.

I'm neither gay nor a woman, but the Buffy character I most identify with is Tara. The stammer, the "life in a shadow" thing -- very familiar. And if you can't be moved by her relationship with Willow -- well, that fits my definition of "unnatural".

It might suprise some of you to hear this, but I probably have just as many personal issues with homosexuality as does loonytoons. The difference between us is that I know my sexual preferences and dislikes are something that belong to me, not the natural order of the universe.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 8:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:

I was also surprised to learn dolphins tend to hump everything that moves whether it is also a dolphin or not.

The erotic obsession of dogs with human legs is well-established.

I'm told that some stock breeders actively dislike heterosexual bulls. Since most breeding is done by artificial insemination, they prefer bulls that are attracted to steers (commonly known as "queer steers") or inanimate objects, since that makes it easier to obtain the, uhm, product.

The big mistake Loonytoons makes is equating sex with reproduction. If that were true, Hugh Hefner would have to get a day job! It's true that sex is essential to reproduction, but reproduction is not all there is to sex. It has all kinds of social and (duh!) recreational functions.

Which is the big flaw in the "nature selects against homosexuality" argument. Only one sexual encounter in a thousand produces offspring. And even in dominately homosexual cultures, such as classical Sparta, that one contact is not that hard to arrange.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

HAKEN

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 8:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural

I have friends who are homosexuals. As a matter of fact, I have friends who are bi-sexuals. I hate to think that they're un-natural because it would mean that I'm un-natural by association and that my wife and kids are deviants.

Besides, one can't really tell what my friends' sexual preferences are unless they specifically said so. I suspect that many of us are surrounded by people who are homosexuals and not even know it. Does that mean we are all un-natural for associating with them? See where I'm getting at?

Things that consenting adults do in their private moments are their business. It doesn't make them evil. It doesn't make them lesser than the rest of us.

The one exception to this in my book is pedophilia. I absolutely do not condone it. If there is anything in this world that's un-natural, it's that.

Anyway...I apologize for the slight rant.

BACCHUS68

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 9:24 PM

You now I don't really see Mal or Jayne as Gay at all. Inara can most likely be BI. but I agree with you on one thing.

1:Simon is so Gay.

Not that there's anything worng with it. I personally wish the Bi subtext between Kaylee and Inara would be explored because well they are both really Really hot but as far as Simon I don't know why but I really do think he's gay. And I'm not talking slash fictiony type or even just old subtext. Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

I think Joss is going to keep Simon's sexuality a secret for awhile and then unless the Fox censors have a cow he will come out as a gay character in a future episode of the show.

I do think thought that Joss will have a hell of alot tougher time getting his ideas past the suits at fox then he did at WB and UPN though. Time will tell but I doubt you will see a Mal/Simon thing unless your dealing with fanfiction of some Spike type stalker thing from Simon towards mal.

Book I have no Idea what his sexuality is but since I don't think he's shown signs either way he could be gay. It would be a weird twist to have a gay priest. Wait what am I saying having a non-gay priest would be the twist. I mean having a gay priest character on the show.

Actually the controversy that would rile up from the catholics and the whole moral majority if that was the case would probably jack the firefly ratings up 2 points. Note to Joss: make Book the gay characer on the show and start a romance with Simon so you can get better ratings.

On and for the guys put a Kaylee/Inara sexual lovemaking teaching thingy going too :)

Bac.

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haken:

The one exception to this in my book is pedophilia. I absolutely do not condone it. If there is anything in this world that's un-natural, it's that.

Pedophilia isn't an exception -- it's just an obvious case of a common moral rule: it's very wrong to gratify yourself sexually at the expense of an unwilling partner. And even worse to do so if the partner is somebody who can't say no for any reason, including lack of maturity.

Of course, people are more put off by sexual abuse of children than by other kinds of sexual abuse. Which is hardly suprising -- most people have a strong desire to see children safe and happy.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 11:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bacchus68:
You now I don't really see Mal or Jayne as Gay at all. Inara can most likely be BI. but I agree with you on one thing.

1:Simon is so Gay.

Not that there's anything worng with it. I personally wish the Bi subtext between Kaylee and Inara would be explored because well they are both really Really hot but as far as Simon I don't know why but I really do think he's gay. And I'm not talking slash fictiony type or even just old subtext. Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

I think Joss is going to keep Simon's sexuality a secret for awhile and then unless the Fox censors have a cow he will come out as a gay character in a future episode of the show.

Bac.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. For being the only one to take this thread in the spirit in which it was intended. But in case I haven't been specific enough:

I don't care if anyone on the show turns out to be gay. Nope, not really. I like to look for little things. Little subtextual notes in the body of the episode; an ambiguous line, a smoldering look that whether intended to or not might give the viewer the impression that a specific character might be gay.
For example the "experiment" line Inara said to Kaylee during The Train Job. Or just the way Simon looks at Mal like the Captain's the next dish in a gourmet meal.

Why? Because its fun! If you do it right its fun! And doesn't devolve into either religious or political discussions. Cause I honestly couldn't give a great leaping crap what some small minded bigot like loonytoons(seriously, you have the Yosemite Sam mudflaps don't you) thinks of people who live "alternative" lifestyles. As a bisexual female myself I'm more than comfortable with my sexual identity and defending it is really not much fun.

But you know what is fun? Gathering subtextual evidence that supports the theory that Simon is gay! That's what floats my boat.

If you don't agree with me please restrain yourself to threads that aren't this one. And if you do, for God's sake post something fun and save me from my angry madness.

Here endeth the rant. I feel better now.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

WOLFRAM

Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:11 PM

OK, getting away from the stupidity and back to the topic, I went hopping off searching for slashy ships from eppie one. My theory: Mal and Jayne, long-together couple in my world. Jayne's Joan Collinsy tude towards Simon is just a cover for an affair that they're having, and Jayne's keeping it a secret from Mal, who he really loves.

Burn the ships and boil the fics, but you can't take the slash from meeeeeeeeeeeee! LOL!

LOONYTOON

Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bacchus68:

Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

On and for the guys put a Kaylee/Inara sexual lovemaking teaching thingy going too :)
.

Okay, whether or not I like gays, Saffron did not hit on Book, Kaylee, Zoe, Simon, River, or Jayne.
Matter of fact, she insulted Jayne and Zoe.

And girls have been doing each others hair for thousands of years, I don`t see why in 500 years it will be a sighn of being gay. I have even heard the exact phrase that you are talking about, with regard to HAIR not sex.

And why would guys like lesbians, it ticks me off more than male gays, cuz its a little annoying for cute girls not to like guys!

ZICSOFT

Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:

And why would guys like lesbians, it ticks me off more than male gays, cuz its a little annoying for cute girls not to like guys!

Jeez, guy, you get "annoyed" awfully easily. Do you expect the whole world to re-arrange itself to fit your prejudices?

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

LOONYTOON

Thursday, October 10, 2002 5:07 PM

All I`m saying is that I don`t see any reason why two cute girls being lesbians would imprees straight guys, I would rather see two straight guys getting lucky with two cute girls. And just food for thought, about %87 of child molesters molest same-sex children. Not an insult, just reporting the facts. Call `em like you see `em.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Thursday, October 10, 2002 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfram:
OK, getting away from the stupidity and back to the topic, I went hopping off searching for slashy ships from eppie one. My theory: Mal and Jayne, long-together couple in my world.

In the unaired pilot we get to see Mal bossing Jayne around a lot. My theory is that while they're a very devoted couple Jayne is afraid if the others know he's gay it'll undermine his big scary guy vibe so Mal has the ultimate blackmail material to get Jayne to do whatever he wants. Yeah, I've given this way too much thought.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Thursday, October 10, 2002 6:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by bacchus68:

Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

On and for the guys put a Kaylee/Inara sexual lovemaking teaching thingy going too :)
.

Okay, whether or not I like gays, Saffron did not hit on Book, Kaylee, Zoe, Simon, River, or Jayne.
Matter of fact, she insulted Jayne and Zoe.

And girls have been doing each others hair for thousands of years, I don`t see why in 500 years it will be a sighn of being gay. I have even heard the exact phrase that you are talking about, with regard to HAIR not sex.

Hate to admit this one, but I think that LT actually has a valid point here.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Friday, October 11, 2002 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:

And girls have been doing each others hair for thousands of years, I don`t see why in 500 years it will be a sighn of being gay. I have even heard the exact phrase that you are talking about, with regard to HAIR not sex.

It wasn't what she said, it was the way she said it. You may not have heard anything flirty in her tone, but I did.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

THEGN

Friday, October 11, 2002 6:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
It wasn't what she said, it was the way she said it. You may not have heard anything flirty in her tone, but I did.

Hmm. Maybe you heard exactly what you wanted to hear.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Friday, October 11, 2002 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
It wasn't what she said, it was the way she said it. You may not have heard anything flirty in her tone, but I did.
Hmm. Maybe you heard exactly what you wanted to hear.

Hmm, if I were hearing exactly what I wanted to hear Inara would have been coming on to me.

As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure her picture in the credits has been aggressively flirting with me since the first episode. That little 'ho.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

ZICSOFT

Friday, October 11, 2002 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
All I`m saying is that I don`t see any reason why two cute girls being lesbians would imprees straight guys,

No, you said that guys who like lesbians "annoy" you. Do people who like food you hate "annoy" you? Sounds like all person has to do to "annoy" you is to have even a minor detail of their sexual wiring different from yours. Here's a flash, dude: everybody is wired differently.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

WILLIAM

Friday, October 11, 2002 11:43 PM

Everybody is different !

I don't see the point in this. If a character on Firefly turns out to be gay/bi, I don't really care so much, cause it's the personality of the character which is far more important.

I mean they probably won't even make it a big deal over it, one moment a character, whether male or female is eating his/her lunch, the next he/she is kissing someone of the same sex. Who really cares ? You know who cares? People who are small-minded, insecure and have nothing better to do.

DARKANGELSLAYER

Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:05 AM

I so agree with you William!

WILLIAM

Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:10 AM

Thanks DarkAngelSlayer :)

Do you happen to be a Buffy fan ?

Cause if you are, how do you think Buffy should end ? I posted a thread at the buffyverse, no one is replying. And it's been like a week.

TIMEO

Monday, November 4, 2002 6:37 AM

To Loonytoon:

Hey, and did you know that 98% of child molestations are done by heterosexuals? Don't spit off statistics that don't present the full picture.

To everyone else:

Hehehe. And to add to this discussion, I wouldn't mind if Simon is gay (though that would be kind of cool), but currently, i'm liking the whole Kaylee quasi-non-existant relationship thing. But i'm looking out for signs of homosexuality...hehehe.

(is it just the manners? Is that what's getting you guys thinking he's gay?)

PANIC

Monday, November 4, 2002 12:11 PM

I agree that Simon's manerisms are somewhat effeminate, but I don't actually see much evidence that he's gay. As one of the minority in the crew that had anything like a formal education (Book, River and Inara behing the others), he is certainly quite a bit more polished and sophisticated than, say, Jayne. However, just cause he's not all rough 'round the edges doesn't mean he's gay.

In fact, wasn't there that scene between he and Kaylee at the bar in Jaynestown? He certainly seemed quite smitten with her. Then denying his affection for her to Mal was quite the Hetero thing to do! It seems to me that an attractive gay man would have been in that same situation many times before, and he we be much more skillful at redirecting the attentions of a young women.

Thoughts?

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Monday, November 4, 2002 12:55 PM

Yeah, but did you see his face when Kaylee said they'd slept together? You could just tell he was thinking, "I did that...with a girl?" And who says just cause Jayne's all manly and sorta dim he can't be just as gay as Simon? I mean, he did seem awfully excited to get naked in front of mostly guys. (the wink means I'm just playing, see, and I mean not to offend anyone who objects to reading about homoerotic subtext in a thread that was created to talk about the homoerotic subtext...and good Lord, I'm still bitter aren't I?) (added cause I think it looks smutty)

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Monday, November 4, 2002 3:04 PM

I think Simon was horrified that he might have taken advantage of Kaylee. Heaven forbid he "appear indecorous."

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

ESME

Monday, November 4, 2002 4:05 PM

Oh Jayne's Girl- you slay me.
Really though, nothing pisses me off more that a post that says "who cares?". (see below) We do, buddy and if you don't then stop reading!
Also- the great thing about JW is that anything is possible- and sorry, but mutual hair dressing is totally erotic, be it man-man, man-woman, woman-woman, woman-man....

ESME

Monday, November 4, 2002 4:08 PM

Dear William- If you don't care, then why do you post here? Go find a thread you care about.
(Not being sarcastic, really.)

SENSOU

Monday, November 4, 2002 5:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Not everybody is gay, you shouldn`t contort the show to appeal to a very small minortity. And by the way, I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature. Give it a hundred years, you will most likely be killed off as evolution is not kind to those that cannot procreate(morally, at least).

an armed society is a polite society

While I agree with you that a show should not be contorted to a very small minority, I detect some flaws in your reasons why.
Will: Oh, s**t, you've got her on her soapbox now.

Actually, homosexuality is quite natural, occuring in about 10% of any given population. You no more decide to be gay than you decide to be short. The latest theroy is that it is determined by genetics.
As for the "natural world", there are gay animals. Wolves come to mind as do horses, like the one from Will & Grace. And there's always the queer giraffes

Of course, you are allowed to believe whatever you wish.

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Curel is love when all is hell

SENSOU

Monday, November 4, 2002 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfram:
OK, getting away from the stupidity and back to the topic, I went hopping off searching for slashy ships from eppie one. My theory: Mal and Jayne, long-together couple in my world. Jayne's Joan Collinsy tude towards Simon is just a cover for an affair that they're having, and Jayne's keeping it a secret from Mal, who he really loves.

Burn the ships and boil the fics, but you can't take the slash from meeeeeeeeeeeee! LOL!

Oh, crap it's Gundam Wing all over again!!!!

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Curel is love when all is hell

PANIC

Monday, November 4, 2002 7:25 PM

For your learning pleasure:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=585&e=1&cid=585&u=/nm
/20021104/sc_nm/science_sheep_dc

JAYNELOVER

Monday, November 4, 2002 8:30 PM

Simon's totally gay! In Jaynestown, when he was getting drunk with Kaylee and Jayne was off w/ his fans, Simon was being all mopey about Jayne! As the Television Without Pity recap pointed out, he was acting like someone who had just been dumped. And he's always giving looks full of longing to Mal and Jayne, but he just acts bored and uncomfortable around Kaylee. That boy's way gay and I don't even think he's that aware.

The HoYay factor on this show is very high, even more so than on Angel. But it's fun that way.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

LOONYTOON

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 12:16 PM

Yeah, Jaynesgirlfriend, your still bitter, and I`m still an extremely conservative prick but I`ll try to be polite in this post.

First, you can make anything appear to be something other than what it is if you think about it the wrong way. That can go both ways.

Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay! Now with a captive population, and possible human tampering, it is much more likely to happen.

Third, one of the things that bothers me is that many people think they are gay because its "in". I have met quite a few people that come out of a bad relationship with a person of the opposite sex, and assume it is because they are a (usually) a man, so they pull the ol` switch-a-roo, and poof! There gay! But they are quite often just as miserable or more with another man/woman.
Or they think they are gay because they mistake feelings of very deep friendship as love. They are quite similar feelings, at times.

As for the statistics, timeo, you don`t give a source either so I`m just as credible as you. And I doubt 2% of the population is truly gay, maybe 1%.

As for the hair, it is not always, or even usually, erotic. My sister does her friends hair, but she is VERY straight! Now if you show me Jayne putting Simons hair in pigtails, you might be on to something!

CHARLIEBLUE

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 6:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay!

Your understanding of biology is clearly lacking a bit.

First of all, a recessive genotype can be expressed in children of parents who are both heterozygous (that is, the dominant allele is expressed, but the recessive allele is also present). This is why recessive traits very seldom die out completely. Since people who don't possess the trait can be carriers, they can hang on for a long time even if they're harmful.

Second, not all phenotypes are as simple as recessive/dominant. It might be necessary for one gene to have the right co-dominant relationship and another to be recessive, or any other combination.

Thirdly, I've already posted an article discussing how common homosexuality is among animals, so I don't see why you think your anecdotal evidence (based solely on animals you've hunted) is especially useful.

And back on topic: Firefly needs to do a crossover with Smallville. They could get in a fight over which show is gayer, and it could end with them rolling around in the mud, and...er...let's just say nobody would be left standing.

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 6:07 PM

Oh, and while we're on the topic of biology and recessive traits: if a trait is recessive, that does not make it rare. Right now, count how many fingers you were born with on each hand. If your answer is 5, then congratulations, you are in possesion of a recessive trait. Yes, that's right. The gene for six fingers on each hand is Dominant.

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

BOBKNAPTOR

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 8:07 PM

Thank you, CharlieBlue, for setting loonytoon "straight" about the recessive traits!

Now, my turn to rant.

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay! Now with a captive population, and possible human tampering, it is much more likely to happen.

1) you're hunting them. Chances are, you're not going to see every aspect of their life.
2) all breeds of animal have instances of homosexuality. obviously, it's not the majority of the population, or there would no longer be a population, however, it DOES happen.
3) a friend of mine breeds birds. she has a gay couple. 2 male birds that have had plenty of chances to breed with females, and yet they only have sex with each other. She has done nothing to encourage this trait (she's a breeder, so having a gay couple does not help her in any way!)

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:

Third, one of the things that bothers me is that many people think they are gay because its "in". I have met quite a few people that come out of a bad relationship with a person of the opposite sex, and assume it is because they are a (usually) a man, so they pull the ol` switch-a-roo, and poof! There gay! But they are quite often just as miserable or more with another man/woman.
Or they think they are gay because they mistake feelings of very deep friendship as love. They are quite similar feelings, at times.

1) Have YOU ever mistaken a feeling of deep friendship for love? that's ridiculous. If you can't tell when you're in love, YOU'RE NOT.
2) There is a whole spectrum of human sexuality, ranging from completely heterosexual to completely homosexual, with every flavor of bisexual in between.
3) saying that people are pretending to be gay because it is "in" is absolutely ridiculous. It's not that it's "in"... it's that because it is more socially acceptable to be gay, people no longer have to pretend to be something they are not.
4) It is asinine to say that someone "turns gay" because they had a bad relationship with a member of the opposite sex. That is just as intelligent as saying someone "turned straight" because they had a bad experience with someone of their same sex. "Gee, Johnny's best friend Kevin lied to him and hurt his feelings. That must be why he's been dating those girls!"

Being someone who has struggled with her own sexuality, I can tell you that hearing statements like the kind you have just made is incredibly disheartening. We've fought so hard to say that it's ok to be who we are, and it's sad to hear that people still feel like they have a right to try and discredit us. But guess what? It's only going to get more socially acceptable.

______________
We're here, we're queer, get used to it.

TINYTIMM

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 11:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Being someone who has struggled with her own sexuality, I can tell you that hearing statements like the kind you have just made is incredibly disheartening. We've fought so hard to say that it's ok to be who we are, and it's sad to hear that people still feel like they have a right to try and discredit us. But guess what? It's only going to get more socially acceptable.

Unfortunately the open minded society is running into a heavy dose of reality. The "Gay Community" attacks on the Boyscouts have had a very negative effect. The Boy Scouts have a no gay rule, because they were deliberatly infiltrated and used as a front for child molesting by a gay child molesting gang.

Denial that child molestation is a often a homosexual act, is also problem. See the numbers of homosexual acts against children, compared to the number of heterosexual abuse cases in the Catholic Church.

Jeff
Who tries to keep an open mind, but when I see good organizations like the Boy Scouts being attacked, it makes me very angry.

PERSEPHONE

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 12:09 AM

Jeez, why did this topic have to go and get all serious. You don't see this happening at Television Without Pity's HoYay thread. Jaynesgirlfriend, looks like ya might have to keep it there, some people here obviously have no sense of humor.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

LOONYTOON

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 2:08 AM

First, I was trying to be polite, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

Second, bobknaptor, you obviosly have no idea what hunting an animal really entails. My method of hunting is an excellent example, I hunt in the swamps, so I find a likely looking pond and wait. Last time I went, I did not get a moose, however I did spend a week observing varios moose behaviors about 10-12 hours a day. I saw a mother defending her calf, I saw a submissive bull trying to court a cow, and get run off by a larger bull(a large bull moose grunting 40 feet away is an interesting sight,loud to!) and I have never seen a homosexual behavior in a WILD animal.

And I do have a basic understanding of genetic traits, but I know that 10% of any given population is not going to be gay given a dynamic and changing breeding pool as in the wild, but in captivety, it is much more likely as the recessive genes will be kept alive much longer.
For example, the gay birds mentioned will not pass on there recessive genes as they will not mate with a female. And breeders negate natural selection, as they wish to propagate traits that they want, not what the birds look for in determining a mate in the wild.

As for the social acceptability of being gay, I am speaking from personal expierences and observations, so I know what I am saying does happen. Twenty, or even ten, years ago if you were gay than you would keep a low profile, it existed, but it was not celebrated like it is now. Now people think being gay is perfectly acceptable and therefore think less about the reasons and the consequences before they "come out". If you are undeniably gay, fine, be gay. But many people today consider there sexual orientation about like they do there choice of cars. "Oh, don`t like chevys anymore, I think I`ll try a ford". Sexuality is becoming to casual, and is not regarded as it should be. This does not just apply to gays, I think it is a fault with much of todays society.

And I consider it interesting that nobody has gotten upset about tinytimms comments, when I made almost the exact same comments and you jumped all over me. Like him, I have seen to much hypocrisey coming from the gay community.

P.S. please don`t get worked up over my spelling or use it to say I`m to stupid to continue the argument, I have better things to do than maintain perfect english on a BB.

PANIC

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 3:07 AM

Why exactly do you feel that there is a difference between the mating behavior of animals in the wild as opposed to captivity? In reality, scientists who study this issue believe that there may be real survival benefits to having some percentage of a species being gay. For instance, gay males in a hunter-gatherer society would represent an additional contribution in terms of labor, survival, defence, etc., without increasing the group burden by the resource needs of their offspring. Since humans are social animals who clearly benefit from cooperation, sharing, and altruism, a strict "surival of those who have the most offspring" approach is invalid.

The mechanism by which "gayness" would be perpetuated goes something like this: imagine you are a hunter-gatherer and you have a gay relative, say a brother or cousin. You share some genetic material with this person (about 1/4 for your sibling), and his extra contributions to your family group in terms of labor and defence give your genes a survival advantage (some of which may include genes which determine sexual orientation). This survival advantage promotes the propagation of the genes for "gayness" down through the generations to the exclusion of others lacking the gene. Remember that we have two copies of every gene, only one of which is typically expressed.

Similar theories are advanced to explain the common occurance of traits such altruism and self-sacrifice (on behalf of non-immediate family members) which have no "obvious" survival advantage.

One last point. Argument by induction is not compelling. Your experience with the observation of animals while hunting is NOT generalizable to animals in general. Its analogous to "I have seen thousands of geese, which have all been white. Therefore there is no such thing as a black goose." Deductive reason has been the cornerstone of rational, scientific thought since the Enlightenment. Inductive reasoning is useful for generating a hypothesis, but its has absolutely NO ability to prove cause and effect or exclude phenomena not observed.

~Panic

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
First, I was trying to be polite, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

Second, bobknaptor, you obviosly have no idea what hunting an animal really entails. My method of hunting is an excellent example, I hunt in the swamps, so I find a likely looking pond and wait. Last time I went, I did not get a moose, however I did spend a week observing varios moose behaviors about 10-12 hours a day. I saw a mother defending her calf, I saw a submissive bull trying to court a cow, and get run off by a larger bull(a large bull moose grunting 40 feet away is an interesting sight,loud to!) and I have never seen a homosexual behavior in a WILD animal.

And I do have a basic understanding of genetic traits, but I know that 10% of any given population is not going to be gay given a dynamic and changing breeding pool as in the wild, but in captivety, it is much more likely as the recessive genes will be kept alive much longer.
For example, the gay birds mentioned will not pass on there recessive genes as they will not mate with a female. And breeders negate natural selection, as they wish to propagate traits that they want, not what the birds look for in determining a mate in the wild.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Oh Jayne's Girl- you slay me.
Really though, nothing pisses me off more that a post that says "who cares?". (see below) We do, buddy and if you don't then stop reading!
Also- the great thing about JW is that anything is possible- and sorry, but mutual hair dressing is totally erotic, be it man-man, man-woman, woman-woman, woman-man....

Thanks! Okay, was it just me or were there a couple of pictures of women on the screen when Inara was reviewing perspective clients? There's been speculation that Companion's service both sexes, but this would be nice proof. And add just a little more gayness to the hair scene, which we know I'm all for.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 3:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Jeez, why did this topic have to go and get all serious. You don't see this happening at Television Without Pity's HoYay thread. Jaynesgirlfriend, looks like ya might have to keep it there, some people here obviously have no sense of humor.

It started the second HoYay was even mentioned and not actually in this thread. But I will not be deterred. I like it here despite the talk of recessive traits and gay sheep, which I'm completely ignoring in favor of the more fun discussion that's going on here, such as "How gay is Simon?" Answer, unbelievably gay and totally in love with Mal, sorry Kaylee. In fact the nay-saying just makes me more determined. The slash might not be as obvious on Firefly as it is on say Smallville, but its there. Oh yes, it is there.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

CHARLIEBLUE

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Okay, was it just me or were there a couple of pictures of women on the screen when Inara was reviewing perspective clients? There's been speculation that Companion's service both sexes, but this would be nice proof. And add just a little more gayness to the hair scene, which we know I'm all for.

If you added a little more gayness to that scene, they couldn't show it on network TV. That scene was right up there with Lex and Clark.

LJSQUARED

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 5:41 PM

Here's a cap of Inara's screen, at least two of the pics look like woman to me and does anyone else think the bottom left one looks like Mal?

Firefly@Trekvideo.com
http://www.trekvideo.com/firefly

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 9:04 PM

Ooh, it does look like Mal. Well, I never... The one next to the Mal lookalike is definitely female. Actually, before Inara brought up the video of the boy's proposal I was positive he was a girl. Its nice to know that Inara services women as well as assholes(Atherton) and gay men(26 year old virgin, my ass.)

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

PERSEPHONE

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 10:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
I like it here despite the talk of recessive traits and gay sheep, which I'm completely ignoring in favor of the more fun discussion that's going on here, such as "How gay is Simon?"

lol, ok well you can count on me for HoYay talk! I've never even seen Smallville, but the gayness on Firefly seems pretty apparent to me. I thought when I was watching that a couple of Inara's prospective clients looked like women. I think the fact that a Companion services both sexes has pretty much been implied, not to mention it's quite realistic so far into the future.

And poor Kaylee, with her misbegotten crush on Simon. I wrote a post here a few days ago about how gay Simon is but I think it disappeared when I changed my alias. He's always gazing yearnfully at Mal and Jayne, but seems bored and out of his element with Kaylee. And when Simon saw that Mal had been stabbed he was much more concerned about it than Inara was. He was all, "Are you alright?!" while running up to Mal, practically sweating out of fear. That goes a little above and beyond doctorly concern, if you ask me. In that same episode, Simon said of Mal, "He knows how to handle a sword, doesn't he?" C'mon, some lines just speak for themselves.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

ROBERTSPARLING

Thursday, November 7, 2002 12:20 AM

you all read into this show far, far too much.

And quit being a homophobe Looney Toons. It doesn't speak well of your moral character.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:

And when Simon saw that Mal had been stabbed he was much more concerned about it than Inara was. He was all, "Are you alright?!" while running up to Mal, practically sweating out of fear. That goes a little above and beyond doctorly concern, if you ask me. In that same episode, Simon said of Mal, "He knows how to handle a sword, doesn't he?" C'mon, some lines just speak for themselves.

I just re-watched this yesterday and I noticed it too. I mean I know Simon's a doctor so its not supposed to be a big deal when the first question he asks is whether someone is hurt, but his tone. He sounded so scared. It was really kind of cute. Now if Mal would just get over his silly, little Inara crush...

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

MOUNTAINGAL

Friday, November 8, 2002 12:58 AM

Simon? Gay? Prolly.

Come on Kaylee, see the man that Jayne is. He'll stand up for ya in a fight much more effectively than Simon anyway.

I don't condone homosexuality, but i don't condemn homosexuals or bisexuals. I also don't think that people should have others jumping down their throats because they express their opinion, however unpopular.

That said, LooneyTunes, you could have phrased your statements more diplomatically.

~S.

You can't take the sky from me.

CHARLIEBLUE

Friday, November 8, 2002 2:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
lol, ok well you can count on me for HoYay talk! I've never even seen Smallville, but the gayness on Firefly seems pretty apparent to me.

If you like HoYay, you have to watch Smallville. That show is homoeroticism in a bottle.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if Michael Rosenbaum is...er...

? Because I know the writers have denied intending for Lex Luthor to be a homosexual, so why is he So Very Gay?

PERSEPHONE

Friday, November 8, 2002 9:14 AM

Man I've been meaning to check that show out for a long time, but I think I usually watch 24 instead. Great show, but no HoYay.

Re: lines speaking for themselves. I didn't even catch this one, I got it out of Shack's recap of "Shindig" at TWoP.

Inara: As with other situations, the key seems to be giving Jayne a heavy stick and standing back.
Shack: How can they give me lines like that and not expect me to make gay jokes?

Read the rest at: http://televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=95&story=4088

New Firefly tomorrow!

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

PERSEPHONE

Friday, November 8, 2002 9:17 AM

Edited because of double-post. My first ever! yay me.

MARK

Friday, November 8, 2002 11:15 PM

Ok, I just want to make three points...

Firstly, Simon's a Pansy. Take that either as being effeminate or gay if you like... It would certainly make for a more interesting show.

Secondly. Homosexuality is a species survival trait, rather than an individual survival trait. It's a gene that exists in all of us but gets triggered by certain environmental factors. It's intended to slow the growth of an overly sucessful species to prevent them outstripping their resources. As you get more and more tightly packed, more and more people become gay thus slowing the birth rate... Or at least it woukd if it weren't for surrogacy. Above is a theory of mine, not scientific certainty... But if it's right, then there should be fewer Homosexuals in the future.

Thirdly, if you want proof of the Mal/Jayne thing... Well, I can't prove they're shirt-lifters (I didn't mean that in a bad way) but don't you think it's curious... The Phallic symbolism? Mal has Serenity, and if the neck of that ship isn't phallic then I don't know what is! And Jayne has all those guns... Including Vera... What's the betting he has them by his bed so he can fondle them under the covers at night.
Ooohh!! And don't forget the knife he threatens Dobbs with in Serenity! That was an excessively big knife... It's obviously a manhood compensator.

Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.

STEVE580

Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark:
Homosexuality is a species survival trait, rather than an individual survival trait. It's a gene that exists in all of us but gets triggered by certain environmental factors. It's intended to slow the growth of an overly sucessful species to prevent them outstripping their resources. As you get more and more tightly packed, more and more people become gay thus slowing the birth rate... Or at least it woukd if it weren't for surrogacy. Above is a theory of mine, not scientific certainty... But if it's right, then there should be fewer Homosexuals in the future.

That isnt right - its genetic, as previously mentioned, or chemical (It could be becuase of too much estrogen[men] or testosterone[women])

MARK

Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:19 PM

[q]
Originally posted by Mark:
Homosexuality is a species survival trait, rather than an individual survival trait. It's a gene that exists in all of us but gets triggered by certain environmental factors. It's intended to slow the growth of an overly sucessful species to prevent them outstripping their resources. As you get more and more tightly packed, more and more people become gay thus slowing the birth rate... Or at least it woukd if it weren't for surrogacy. Above is a theory of mine, not scientific certainty... But if it's right, then there should be fewer Homosexuals in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That isnt right - its genetic, as previously mentioned, or chemical (It could be becuase of too much estrogen or testosterone)[/q]

That's what I said. It's a gene that becomes more prone to dominance in higher density populations... Kinda like the Heat Shock gene... The proof is... Well... Only circumstantial, but if you think about it, ancient rome was fairly densely packed and they had a lot of homosexuality in the mix, just as it's far less prevailant in Third World countries today, due to the need to keep the birth rate high.

Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.

NIXXIGNATIUS

Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:40 PM

Personally, I'm waiting for the Deliverence references.

I about died when Jayne was stealing all of the Doctor's stuff and mentioned the "hill people."

I could see the Doctor as being gay. Not the Captain though. He doesn't effect my gaydar.

Nixx

PERSEPHONE

Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:12 PM

Are you kidding Nixx? The Captain and Simon are the best couple on the show. The last episode had SO MUCH hoyay between those two. In every scene they had together Mal kept going out of his way to be all touchy-feely with Simon. And why do you think Mal went back for Simon? Because he luurrves him, that's why. That scene at the end when Simon was questioning Mal about it was just filled with sexual tension. Whatever forced "sexual tension" Mal has going on with Inara has nothing on Mal and Simon's. And Mal got so embarrassed and defensive about Simon questioning him, that was so cute! And then he said for Simon to get ready for dinner and that "there's no need to dress." hehe! okay, I'm just digging now, I'll admit it. The Captain strikes me as more bisexual than totally gay. He lurves Simon but also wants to follow the conventional route (Inara) and he knows not what to do.

I could write a freaking essay on all the HoYay in "Safe" but I'll spare you all. There is just too much of it for the fans to be making it up. Joss has admitted to putting hoyay in Buffy, eventually he'll admit to putting it in Ff too.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:45 AM

"They took Christmas away." River's way of saying Jayne's big pay day had been swept out from under him, but she goes on to say "No fair looking in the closet. That's just greedy." Which of course to my dirty little mind sounds like she's telling Jayne he can't coerce Simon into having sex with him as a consolation prize. Which considering Simon's "he was amazing" pronouncement back on Serenity might not be such a wacky idea.

Yes, my slashy friends, the Ho!Yay! thrives.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

THEADORABLEDORMOUSE

Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:52 AM

So, okay. I'm going to ignore all sociopolitical and scientific discussion on homosexuality here. Any replies that include any scientific discourse, statistics of any kind, or anti-gay sentiment will be summarily IGNORED.

Right? Okay. Moving on.

Firefly rocks! Also: Mal is in love with Simon. Yes he is. And Simon now has a crush on Jayne. And Jayne feels really guilty because he kindof sortof is crushing back. And he betrayed him! And doesn't want him to know! Because of the crush, absolutely.

You know, in a normal show this incident would be forgotton and never mentioned again, and Simon would never learn that it was Jayne what betrayed him and River. But being as this is Joss... I don't know that it won't crop up again. I'd like Simon to find out. Then he will realize what a Cro-Magnon Jayne is and find true love with Mal.

And, wow. Mal. Scary in love with Simon. He's all "you mess with him, you mess with ME!" and completely prepared to let Jayne die. And only decides against it because Jayne shows remorse for turning on his boy.

And Inara and Kaylee. Are a couple. And if they're not, they should be. Kaylee's all "so do Space hookers date?" and Inara's all "well, maybe" and then with the hugging and the kissing. Awwww. So cute.

And shout-out to the HetYay, Wash and Zoe are so cute words do not describe. I'm afraid of what Joss has in store for them, because they're so in love I could see little hearts around them when they were kissing. And everyone knows Joss kills all healthy relationships. So sad!

In closing, Mal loves Simon. And Simon should love him back because lets face it: space pants rock.

~~~
t. a. d.
~~~

PERSEPHONE

Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:00 AM

Didn't Jayne say something to Simon like "Shut that pretty mouth"??? After calling Simon's shoes pretty last week. I mean, that's pretty gay. I think Jayne sort of has a crush on Simon, but Mal totally loves Simon. I thought it was so cute how furious Mal was with Jayne for what he did, was even gonna let him die over it. Jayne was all "I didn't do nuthin to you" and Mal shrieks "YES YOU DID!" before covering himself and continuing with all the "you betray one of us you betray us all" crap. Poor Captain Tight Pants. As for Simon, he's in the middle. If he didn't have a crush on Jayne before, he sure does now. The way he looked at him and said "he was amazing..." hehe, the HoYay definitely thrives.

oh yes, and I'll echo the HetYay. Wash and Zoe are like the bestest couple ever. They should get more screen time.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Didn't Jayne say something to Simon like "Shut that pretty mouth"???

Yes, yes, he did. And everyone in my neighborhood knows it because I began screaming in joy. It doesn't get much gayer than that. Although with all the Deliverance action going on last week, it was also a little creepsome. But I digress..

Quote:
Poor Captain Tight Pants. As for Simon, he's in the middle.

And this is a bad thing? I'd pay good money to be in the middle of that.

Quote:

If he didn't have a crush on Jayne before, he sure does now. The way he looked at him and said "he was amazing..." hehe, the HoYay definitely thrives.

Even the gay-dar deficient had to feel that one. If Simon were a girl you know that would be considered foreshadowing for a future relationship. Of course, considering its King of the HoYay Whedon we're talking about at least we can consider it foreshadowing for lots more Jayne/Simon subtextyness in the future. Yum.

I'm not feeling the Mal/Simon love though. Its there, I'd have to be blind not to see it, but the prospects of Jayne/Simon just seem like so much more fun.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

THEADORABLEDORMOUSE

Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:06 PM

Quote:
I'm not feeling the Mal/Simon love though. Its there, I'd have to be blind not to see it, but the prospects of Jayne/Simon just seem like so much more fun.

Jayne's hot, I admit. But he really strikes me as being a knuckle-dragging jerk. I could deal with the mercenary tendencies if he had the charm and charisma of Han Solo. And I wouldn't mind his being a dim bulb if he had the courage of, say, Worf. But he's rude and abrasive and cowardly and obviously the type who thinks that a fart is a witty rebuttal.

Not my cup of tea.

Mal on the other hand! Now, he does have the charm and charisma of Han Solo. And he went back for Simon even when Simon's own father wouldn't have, and didn't leave him behind on Ariel either. And he totally threw down for his boy! Also: the man must have Kaylee weld his pants on every morning, because I don't see any other way of getting into those things.

Captain Tight Pants indeed.

So, I'd much rather see the Simon!subtext with Mal, rather than Jayne. Because between the rugged anti-hero and a transplanted Neantherthal/frat-boy... no contest.

Although, honestly. Simon is crushing on Jayne something awful. But I can definately see Jayne feeling so guilty he brushes him off. Or Mal suddenly looming up in the background and giving Jayne the evil eye until he did, anyway.

~~~
t. a. d.
~~~

PERSEPHONE

Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:29 AM

Quote:
And I wouldn't mind his being a dim bulb if he had the courage of, say, Worf. But he's rude and abrasive and cowardly and obviously the type who thinks that a fart is a witty rebuttal.

I don't think Jayne is as dumb as he appears. He's more anti-social and incredibly self focused, which can make him appear the dim bulb. I don't think he's that cowardly, either. As long as he thinks the ends justify the means he can be very brave. He probably would think that a fart is a witty rebuttal though, can't argue there. I lurve my Jayne, gotta stick up for him. How sexy was that knife-licking, mmm...

Usually I'm rooting for Mal and Simon, but in Ariel I woulda been blind not to see it between Jayne and Simon. Just like JG said, if the "he was amazing" scene had been done exactly the same but between a man and woman, viewers would take it as foreshadowing for a relationship. I'm pretty much feeling the Hoyay between all 3 of them, in every which direction. Ariel was just the gayest ep ever. Thank you, Jose.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

SENSOU

Monday, November 18, 2002 5:30 AM

Well, normally I'm a rabid yaoi/yuri girl, but I have to disagree with you. The way I figure (as in read waaay too deeply into it), Mal likes Simon as an annoying little brother, you don't ever admit you like him, but you try to take care of him, y'know? (Ooh, fic idea!) Mal does like (that sounds so juvnile!) Zoe, who likes Wash (duh!) Kaylee thinks she likes Simon but those feelings are really for Inara, who Kaylee sees as untouchable and thus subconciously transfers them to Simon, who is almost as unreachable as Inara. Mal doesn't really like Inara that way, he's just a jerk sometimes. Inara likes..hmm.. I don't know. Jayne likes River. So why does he betray her then? (sorry if that spoiled any.) He thinks that when Simon broke her out of the government-place, he did it too soon, and if they had her back, they would fix her.
Note: It's 1 am local time. Just had to share that with y'all.

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

PERSEPHONE

Monday, November 18, 2002 6:46 AM

See I think Mal loves Zoe more like a sister, and he's maybe kind of in awe of her. I just don't get any sexual attraction there. Zoe + Wash 4 eva!

Agree with Kaylee digging Inara and transferring it to Simon. She probably knows deep down that he's way gay, so she feels he's safe or something.

Jayne...River...hmmm my brain can't handle that thought. You're not serious about it are you? All Jayne cared about was his "reward." River's like a child. And an insane one at that.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Monday, November 18, 2002 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:

Jayne...River...hmmm my brain can't handle that thought. You're not serious about it are you? All Jayne cared about was his "reward." River's like a child. And an insane one at that.

Eww. That's kind of an icky thought. Besides look at the way he treats them. River is just an annoyance to him, but he seems to get an awful lot out of teasing Simon. Just like a little boy teasing the girl he has a crush on. So Jayne + Simon = LUV! or you know, really great sex.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

SENSOU

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Jayne...River...hmmm my brain can't handle that thought. You're not serious about it are you? All Jayne cared about was his "reward." River's like a child. And an insane one at that.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

That's what happens when I do this stuff late at night. Now, in the light of day, I don't see Jayne/River right now, but maybe later.
I just like everyone paired up in nice little romantic sets. I have to go back and re-read the scripts (my computer won't run the episodes

), and then come up with the Semi-Accurate-Purely-Speculation-Love-Hate-Net.

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

MRRANTIPOLE

Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:

Besides look at the way he treats them. River is just an annoyance to him, but he seems to get an awful lot out of teasing Simon. Just like a little boy teasing the girl he has a crush on. So Jayne + Simon = LUV! or you know, really great sex.

Hee. Teasing is my favorite hoyay, after pulling rank. Which, conveniently, Mal does often and well. And did you notice the kind of triumphant ardor to his "You're on my crew" speech to Simon?

Mr. Rantipole

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KURYA

Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:46 AM

*sigh* homosexual subtext discussions, and polticial discussions errupting in the middle of a homsoexual subtext thread... have things changed in 4 years? not so much I guess.... :P
Prakash