GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Jaylee?!

POSTED BY: KAYLEERULESALL
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 6, 2005 07:46
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3926
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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:13 PM

KAYLEERULESALL


Ok, ive been browsing the blue sun room, and i have a little problem. Now, i will be the first to celebrate free speech and expression of ideas, but how do all these people see Jayne and Kaylee being together? i personally just dont see it; they are way too oposite to ever be together. its not that im bashing those Jaylee shippers out there, im not. more power to ya. i just dont get it; could someone please explain?

------------------------------------------------
When the stars shine bright through the engine's trail and the dust of another world drops behind; When my ship is free of the open sky, its a damn good day to my way of mind; Theres a barren planet you never can leave, theres a rocky valley where we lost a war; Theres a cross worn 'round a soldier's neck, theres a man's faith died on Serenity's floor, but i stood my ground and ill fight once more; Its the last oath that i ever swore

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:21 PM

PERIDIDDLE


I think it's because of how it's obvious that Jayne cares about Kaylee. IE - him watching from the little space beside the infirmary while Simon operates on her in Serenity. I personally see them as a more brother/sister type thing, but I could definitely see where Jaylee could appear.

Though...I'm more inclined to Jayne/River. But, uh, that may be even harder to explain. ^_^

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:39 PM

STARRBABY


I'm a big Jaylee fan, myself. To me, it is obvious that Jayne is obsessed with Kaylee. However, he keeps his distance either due to being threatened by Mal or not knowing how to handle a genuine caring for her.
I also believe that Jayne's crush on Kaylee is what one of the things that makes him dislike Simon so much.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:41 PM

PURPLEBELLY


It's all those folks out there who want to promote sexual relationships between young girls and men old enough to be their fathers. I'm told they use the Internet a lot

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:50 PM

KAYLEERULESALL


okay, aside from that one scene in serenity(which i thought showed that even Jayne had a desire to preserve the purity of innocence, as thats what Kaylee is for the crew) what other evidence is there to support the thought that hes obsessed with her?

------------------------------------------------
When the stars shine bright through the engine's trail and the dust of another world drops behind; When my ship is free of the open sky, its a damn good day to my way of mind; Theres a barren planet you never can leave, theres a rocky valley where we lost a war; Theres a cross worn 'round a soldier's neck, theres a man's faith died on Serenity's floor, but i stood my ground and ill fight once more; Its the last oath that i ever swore

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Friday, September 2, 2005 7:58 PM

STARRBABY


I'm sure many other Jaylee fans could give you specific scenes. If I think of some I'll be sure to post.
All I have is a simple gut feeling. The way he touches her when he carries her to work on the engine. OR the way he hoists her on his shoulders while they play ball. I know that isn't solid evidence, but it's just a "vibe" I get.
I've also contrived an idea in my head (based only on my own ideas) that Kaylee reminds Jayne of home and that her warm country-like demeaner is something that he'd find very comforting.
To boil down why I think Jayne is in love with Kaylee . . .I just do. I don't have any script bound evidence, it's just a feeling I get from seeing their chracters together.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:18 PM

JUMPY


I don't like bursting people's bubble when it comes to things like this (cause YO! it's part of the fun of loving the characters, right?) but yeh I don't really see any basis for "Jaylee" at all lol.

I see a certain relationship there, but its more brotherly/ sisterly. Not every relationship is going to boil down to romantic feelings.

Lol obviously you've heard that all before and I'm sure you don't care so hey, keep hoping! :) Stranger things have happened relationship-wise in a Joss show after all.

(btw although I am a Simon/ Kaylee fan, I won't be aggressive or nothin lol)

__________________________
There's no show I'd rather see, than the one with Serenity.
You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:36 PM

KALLYCAT


I understand you with the Jayne/River thing.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:52 PM

KAYLEERULESALL


k, i guess i could see it as just individuals interpreting different things from the relationships of the characters. truth is, we really dont have much to go on, as stupid gorramn fox killed it so early on.

------------------------------------------------
When the stars shine bright through the engine's trail and the dust of another world drops behind; When my ship is free of the open sky, its a damn good day to my way of mind; Theres a barren planet you never can leave, theres a rocky valley where we lost a war; Theres a cross worn 'round a soldier's neck, theres a man's faith died on Serenity's floor, but i stood my ground and ill fight once more; Its the last oath that i ever swore

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Friday, September 2, 2005 8:54 PM

KALLYCAT


I think that at some point, everyone on that ship may have been attracted to many of the other people on it. If only because there's only 9 people in a little air bubble in space. Doesn't necessarily lead to anything, but the thoughts are probably there.

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Friday, September 2, 2005 9:50 PM

STARRBABY


Exactly. I agree that I have almost nothing to base my ideas on . . .just the way I'd like to see things work out. Sort of like: why do I like the color yellow? Just because.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 3:23 AM

JACQUI


Quote:

I'm sure many other Jaylee fans could give you specific scenes.


Well, for a start, Jayne and Kaylee are just so darned *cute* together. They bring out the best in each other, I feel. She brings out a softness in Jayne that wouldn't be there otherwise and he allows her to be herself in a way she can't be with Simon (she's always trying to impress him and gets so nervous around him in a way she never is with Jayne).

It's obvious that they both care for each other, him for her and her for him.

You'll notice whenever Jayne is hurt (The Train Job, Ariel, Trash) that it is Kaylee who rushes to him, Kaylee who stands by him when Simon is patching him up. When River slashes him with a knife, Kaylee runs to check on Jayne and not River who's also bleeding.

When Kaylee is hurt, Jayne gets ferocious to whoever hurt her (ie - that fed, if Zoe hadn't stopped him you can imagine what he would have done) and then he gets worried as all hell.

In "Shindig" when Jayne is about to shoot Badger, it's the sight of Kaylee with all those guns pointed at her that stops him. In "The Message" when Tracey has her hostage and Mal shoots him, Kaylee runs to Jayne.

It's also fairly obvious that Jayne is incredibly jealous of Simon and undeniable that Jayne tends to pick on Simon a lot more when Kaylee is flirting with him (The Train Job, Bushwhacked, Out of Gas, Ariel).

Kaylee and Jayne share the same sense of humour, the same simple outlook on life and food and sex. The building blocks for a successful relationship.

If you look carefully there are a lot of hints threaded throughout the series that Kaylee and Jayne are interested in each other and given Joss' penchant for making happy couples VERY unhappy, I'm thinking that a triangle with Simon/Kaylee/Jayne would have occured had the series been allowed to run.

Then again, Firefly is an incredibly 'shippy show and their are valid arguments for just about any couple you can imagine.

To each their own.

The thought of Jaylee just makes me happy.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 8:01 AM

REGINAROADIE


My thoughts on the whole Jaylee thing.

I have nothing against the idea of them pairing, but I'm just not too big on that idea. I can understand it (I think it's more of the idea of the big protector taking care of the naive, happy little ball of sunshine that overshadows Jayne's obvious lecherous personality), and a lot of the theories that have been posted before works, but I think that Simon/Kaylee stories are more appropriate.

Jayne doesn't really need Kaylee. Yes, he feel protective about her and would die for her before any other crew member, and to him she represents purity and innocence. But for Simon, she's his saving grace. She's the thing that keeps him from succumbing to the darkness Mal already has. I imagine without Kaylee, Simon over the years and on the run would just become bitter and cynical and totally lose his faith in humanity. Kaylee is there to tell him that it's all right, and that the 'verse can still be a wonderful place.

Agree/disagree/comments?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
XANDER: (baby-talk) Who's a little fear demon?
C'mon, who's a lit-tle fear demon?
GILES: Don't taunt the fear demon.
XANDER: Why? Can he hurt me?
GILES: No, it's just… tacky.

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 9:32 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


The only thing you really have to say about Jaylee is JOSS WHEDON! You know what kind of guy he is, and how he likes to jerk around his fandom...They are the most unlikely pairing on the show, so of course...they might have ended up together..just to make things harder with Simon and Kaylee....That's just Joss for ya!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Saturday, September 3, 2005 10:59 AM

SHINYSEVEN2


I ship Mal/Simon big time, but I like Kaylee, so if I'm going to frustrate her perfectly sensible ambitions, and there aren't any crossover or original characters for her in the particular story I'm writing, then sometimes I include Jaylee elements just to give her some entertainment.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:15 PM

ASHNAN


I like Jaylee. It helps that Joss said in the Director's Commentary for "Serenity" on the DVD (scene where Kaylee gets shot), that Jayne has a crush on Kaylee.

It is my idea, so naturally I'm inclined to think it's quite brilliant.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:32 PM

JACQUI


Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Jayne doesn't really need Kaylee. Yes, he feel protective about her and would die for her before any other crew member, and to him she represents purity and innocence. But for Simon, she's his saving grace. She's the thing that keeps him from succumbing to the darkness Mal already has. I imagine without Kaylee, Simon over the years and on the run would just become bitter and cynical and totally lose his faith in humanity. Kaylee is there to tell him that it's all right, and that the 'verse can still be a wonderful place.

Agree/disagree/comments?




Okay, here's my problem with that there logic:

It's all from the men's perspective, all from what Kaylee can bring Jayne and/or Simon. I'd like to know exactly what you think Simon brings to Kaylee, how their relationship helps her at all.

Here's where I sit:

Kaylee knows an awful lot about the school Simon went to, the hospital he worked at, the friends he got arrested with naked on top of the fountain... etc... I haven't seen any indication, *once* when they've been together, that Simon has shown any interest in Kaylee's life or history before Serenity.

To Kaylee, Simon is suave, sophisticated, he's seen the world and he knows a lot. Plus, he's shiny. He's a new man on a ship with limited choices, it's fairly given that she will give him the once over, check him out. Then, being the stubborn girl that she is, Simon presents a challenge and, in the end, the prize outstrips the intention.

Simon quite often makes Kaylee feel bad about herself, when he doesn't even mean it, when he's actually being truthful, which makes it worse. It's easier for Kaylee to deal with someone as obvious as those witches at the Shindig, but Simon who's just talking and manages to say such hurtful things about Kaylee and the things that she holds dear, it's hard for her.

Jayne may make crude comments and tease her a lot, but except for that one time in Serenity, none of his comments are ever really meant to hurt her. I'm not excusing that one time, by the way, it was cruel and hurtful and he deserved a smack down for it, but it was calculated, he knew what he was saying when he said it.

I don't ship them, but i feel that Simon is a lot more comfortable talking with Inara than he ever is with Kaylee.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Monday, September 5, 2005 7:32 PM

WHITEFALL


Having watched the first two and a bit seasons of buffy (up to the point where they have problems with an unlikely, or rather all-to-likely couple) i could understand why you guys just blame joss for his evil scheming....

But my hope is that firefly, with a more adult sensibility than buffy, wouldnt have rotated romances for the laugh and the awkward-ness.

Though i will add a piece of evidence: in bushwhacked, when jayne says 'little kaylee's always one man short', kaylee punches him in a affectionate yet annoyed way. hey, affection!

But ok, here is my theory: that one scene with jayne in the pilot, which was an on-set call, was just to make the crew more tightknit, and joss likes the idea that jayne might have a 'little' crush on kaylee, in hindsight. however, i think that this whole jaylee thing can be attributed to both

A)that jewel and adam get along so well, as is made clear (and by this point in our firefly/serenity adventures as fans, made obvious) in the commentaries and the special features, and the conventions since. The cast formed a chemistry that made them appropriately close, appropriate because the crew really is stuck together in a tiny air bubble for most of the time.... but this leads to B)...

B)That we have rewatched these eps so many times, we begin to LOOK for little glances, details, things too small to be scripted (ok, knowing joss that may be wrong, but still) to offer a possibility of affection between the characters.

Ok, so, basically: I think Jaylee is a creation of jewel and adam, not a creation of Joss. just my 2 bits.

I survived a day in Whitefall and all I got was this lousy signature!

Terrifying Space Monkey of Destiny

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Monday, September 5, 2005 7:34 PM

RINNYPJ


Just to throw my two cents in, since I'm one of those who's throwing a lot of Jaylee around the Blue Sun room lately.

First off, to each his own, right? There's really no accounting for taste. You're gonna find any which kind of pairing in any fandom out there. Kaylee and Jayne are far more conventional than some couples I've seen out there.

For me, there doesn't need to be concrete proof that there's an attraction between the two of them. Personally, I think Jayne's got a crush on Kaylee, for all the same reasons as listed above by Jacqui. There's enough implied in the series to back up that theory. Kaylee, perhaps cares for him as a crew member and friend at this point.

My pet theory, like listed above, is that Joss would have created the Simon/Kaylee/Jayne triangle eventually and throw everything into a tailspin (because frankly, that's drama, and we all love drama). Joss is very careful in the set up of his show, for example the subtle placement of Blue Sun through the show from the very beginning. I think Jayne's feelings are in the same vein, Joss is setting it all up from the very beginning. The feelings are there, they just haven't matured.

I don't think that they'd look at each other one day and be in love. Hell, I'm not entirely sure if Jayne's capable of romantic love from what evidence we have. A romance between them wouldn't be sunshine and roses, it wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't be easy. It would have to be a slow progression for Kaylee to see him as anything more than a friend and for Jayne to figure out just what it is he's feeling and what that means. But that's part of the beauty that is Jayne, lots and lots of room for personal growth. You throw in the Simon factor, the Mal factor, and anything other wrench you could imagine... you've got great drama. And that's really all it boils down to.

There's really no knowing what Joss had planned, and that's a tragedy, but what gave me a love for Jaylee, more than anything is that hint of possibility and since the show is gone, and the movies are not the venue for a complicated love triangle, I, and other Jaylee fans, have to create it for ourselves.


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Monday, September 5, 2005 9:24 PM

CARBONEL


Quote:

Originally posted by Whitefall:

Ok, so, basically: I think Jaylee is a creation of jewel and adam, not a creation of Joss. just my 2 bits.



Actually that's quite a compelling case for arguing that we would have seen more of Jaylee had the series continued. One of the things that makes Joss a genius is that it's not always possible to tell the difference between his carefully plotted character arcs and his impromptu exploitations of character chemistry.

(MILD BUFFY SPOILERS IN THIS PARAGRAPH).
I'm thinking here of Spike in particular - Spike was due to be killed off a few episodes after his arrival in Sunnydale, but the character got so much positive buzz that they found a way to keep him around. And then they signed James Marsters up for a single episode in Season 3 - they wanted Juliet Landau too but she wasn't available - and Spike by himself worked so well that they brought him back as a regular in Season 4.

Plus Jaylee would destabilise the crew in quite interesting ways - there's the Simon issue, and Mal would be angry, I think, and Inara wouldn't approve. Conflict, pain, jealousy, darkness. Yup, I could see Joss going there.

"The cat talks?"
"The cat never shuts up."

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Monday, September 5, 2005 11:53 PM

RIGHTEOUS9



I skimmed over some of the reasons given for this, and I might have missed someone mentioning this, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something.

To me, the most telling scene is at the dinner table in the pilot episode. Jayne isn't a man for subtleties, but he picked up on Kaylee's crush on Simon with superhuman hearing.

Not only did he pick up on it, he picked on it. For a man that doesn't like Simon, his jokes were aimed at hurting Kaylee. Sounds like a jealous response to me.

I don't see a relationship being sewn out of this story thread, though. For one thing, the crush seems pretty one sided. For another, I don't think Jayne would ever let it be known.

It manifests in other ways...ties Jayne to the ship more certainly than just his respect for the captain...gives him something other than himself to care about.


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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 3:48 AM

REGINAROADIE


Not necessarily. Aside from when Inara was slurringly trying to cover her tracks in OUR MRS. REYNOLDS, I don't think there ever one was a Simon/Inara scene. The only time the two of them are in the same room is when the whole crew is together. And who was the person that Simon was opening up to and talking about drunken medical exploits in the final ep?

Yep, our little Kaylee.

You wanted to know what Simon means to Kaylee. I think to Kaylee, Simon is the opposite of every guy she's ever known. She's known Jayne's all her life to various degrees. But she's never met anyone who, despite lacking some of the finer social graces, is a true gentleman. Jayne or anyone else that she knew would've sacrificed his entire life for his sister. And that determination for doing the right thing, consequences be damned, would appeal to Kaylee's attraction to nobility. And underneath the awkward moments and mis-pronounced meanings, there is a genuine respect and dignity towards her. The whole episode of JAYNESTOWN is a primary example of that. When he tells her about how being polite and proper is his way of showing respect towards her, she's seeing that he will never take advantage of her, which you get the sense that Jayne would.

You should look at KaySky's stuff. The whole crux of her writing is Simon/Kaylee pairings, and she delves into why these two need each other. Her one story SUNSHINE epitomizes why Kaylee needs Simon.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
XANDER: (baby-talk) Who's a little fear demon?
C'mon, who's a lit-tle fear demon?
GILES: Don't taunt the fear demon.
XANDER: Why? Can he hurt me?
GILES: No, it's just… tacky.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 4:59 AM

SHINYSEVEN2


It's also a question of how fanfic writers see fanfic. As far as I'm concerned, you're not writing a "biography" of the characters (in quotes because you can never nail down all the details for people who don't exist). You're writing interesting stories. Some fanwriters and readers are "OTP" (one true pairing) shippers who won't look at anything else, but others might write a Jaylee story today and a Kaylee/Inara tomorrow, to explore the different relationships that could evolve in different circumstances.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 5:12 AM

JACQUI



When it all comes down to it, we're talking about FANFIC and about people 'shipping characters from a tv show. This whole process is about taking from a loved show and creating something else with it. Some of us find emotional satisfaction pairing Jayne and Kaylee, some Kaylee and Simon, I'm sure there are some people out there who write oodles of Niska/Badger smut (not that I want to read this, or even meet these people), that's what they do. Who are we to judge? You don't like the couple, don't read it.

This is all supposed to fun, no? That's why I write and read the fic... it's fun for me. This is why I'm making so much of a case here, it's fun for me to plead Jaylee.

I don't want to upset anyone. I know I come off very strong, but that's who I am.

Quote:

Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Not necessarily. Aside from when Inara was slurringly trying to cover her tracks in OUR MRS. REYNOLDS, I don't think there ever one was a Simon/Inara scene. The only time the two of them are in the same room is when the whole crew is together.



Re: Simon and Inara.

"Serenity": Inara offers Simon some basic medical supplies to help Kaylee and he opens up to her about being lost and groundless after giving everything up for River.

"Bushwhacked", Inara comes to talk to Simon as he watches the crew play ball. They connect in that she understands his plight and River's plight more so than the rest of the crew to this point.

"Out Of Gas", Inara and Simon talk together when they believe they're going to die. Simon's upset because it was his birthday, Inara doesn't want to hear clinical descriptions of ashpixiation. They both comfort each other here.

"Heart of Gold", they help each other out during Petaline's birth, sharing both fear and humour in their situation.


[QUOTE}And who was the person that Simon was opening up to and talking about drunken medical exploits in the final ep?

Yep, our little Kaylee.


Which just underscores my point that when they talk, it's always about Simon. He's never once shown any interest in her past or family or life outside of Serenity. Not that I've seen.

Quote:

Jayne or anyone else that she knew would've sacrificed his entire life for his sister.


This is a blanket statement I find hard to believe. Mal and Wash alone would give up everything they had to save Zoe. If Inara was in trouble, Mal would sacrifice a lot as well. Jayne, while not the most loyal of all men, has shown immense sensitivity when it comes to his own family (him mother, his pop and his brother Matty). If pressed, I think Jayne would surprise you.

Quote:

And that determination for doing the right thing, consequences be damned, would appeal to Kaylee's attraction to nobility.


Kaylee's misplaced attraction to 'nobility' is what got her held at gun point in "The Message" if you remember correctly. She looked to Tracey, because she found nobility in his recording asking that the right thing be done for his parents.

I'm not saying Simon would ever endanger Kaylee or hold her at ransom or gunpoint, either, just bringing up a point.

Quote:

And underneath the awkward moments and mis-pronounced meanings, there is a genuine respect and dignity towards her. The whole episode of JAYNESTOWN is a primary example of that.


Simon feels for Kaylee, I never said he didn't. He does genuinely respect her and admire her, sometimes his priorities are elsewhere, though, and he doesn't think about how easily he hurts her.

Quote:

When [Simon] tells her about how being polite and proper is his way of showing respect towards her, she's seeing that he will never take advantage of her, which you get the sense that Jayne would.


That's a harsh judgement to make on anyone.

I never got the sense Jayne would take advantage of any woman, let alone Kaylee. Whenever we have seen him with women, he has been surprisingly gentle and affectionate.

The one time we've seen him hit a girl is when River attacked him with a knife. SHE attacked him and he hit her AWAY from him as a defense mechanism.

In "Heart of Gold" he's always petting that woman, plus we see him BRAIDING her hair. That's not violent or mean or taking advantage of her at all. It's quite nice, really, a pampering gesture.

Quote:

You should look at KaySky's stuff. The whole crux of her writing is Simon/Kaylee pairings, and she delves into why these two need each other. Her one story SUNSHINE epitomizes why Kaylee needs Simon.


I have read a lot of KaySky's stuff and I read a lot of Kaylee/Simon fic, which is always fun. They're a nice couple.

I just feel Jaylee is cuter.

Have you read any of my Jaylee stuff? "The Catch" is simple and sweet and really explains their relationship, I think. And "Sometimes" is quite cute, too.

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Tuesday, September 6, 2005 7:46 AM

ASHNAN


I watched the Director's Commentary for "Serenity" on the DVD (scene where Kaylee gets shot) again. Joss does clearly state that Jayne has a crush on Kaylee. He also says that this is the first real scene where you really see this, but there is more throughout the show.

Since the commentary was done after the show ended, I think Joss must have actually put the hints in there, assuming he knows what he wrote.

Joss deliberately put this in, so he must have plans to go somewhere with this plot line eventually. Jayne/Kaylee is such an odd pairing that Joss would love to use it.

Simon/Kaylee is also an obvious odd pairing. Simon says (jokingly) that Kaylee is his only option. But let's think about this, would Simon really have given Kaylee the time of day had he have met her under different circumstances?

I think Joss would enjoy writing either (or both) a Jayne/Kaylee or a Simon/Kaylee.

As someone else stated, Joss does like his odd pairings. He just loves to use the Scott Summers/Emma Frost pairing in Astonishing X-Men. Emma is the queen of evil and Scott is the ultimate Boy Scout.

In fact, Joss seems to prefer his love interest be of entirely differt ends of the spectrum. Not just slightly out of each others league, but that one need serious redemption of some kind. He always goes for one of them being almost completely bad with only a hint of good qualities.

Very typical Joss.

Just my two cents here.


_______________________________________________

It is my idea, so naturally I'm inclined to think it's quite brilliant. - Emma Frost

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To any new folk, I apologize for there being incels on this board.
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Thread of Font Colors
Sun, February 9, 2020 14:50 - 24 posts
Prodigal Son
Tue, February 4, 2020 03:50 - 5 posts
Has the FDA been complicit in intentionally mutating us??
Mon, February 3, 2020 20:11 - 33 posts
Suprise
Tue, January 28, 2020 15:40 - 2 posts
Voting is now open for the CSTS 2020 Art Contest! Only got until midnight (PST) on Friday, January 31st
Mon, January 27, 2020 22:42 - 1 posts
Apply to Serve on the CSTS Global Steering Committee (GSC) Applications will be accepted thru February 15th, 2020.
Mon, January 27, 2020 22:33 - 1 posts
Anyone watching See from Apple?
Wed, January 22, 2020 09:29 - 1 posts
Can't Stop The Serenity 2020 Art Contest submission deadline of Sunday, January 19, 2020 (until midnight PST).
Sat, January 18, 2020 02:05 - 2 posts

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