GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out

POSTED BY: FIREFLYGAL
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 08:37
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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:15 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I was hurt. I was mad. I was sad.

I thought everyone was going to die.

And that's why he did it. When I watched the TV show, I never thought anyone was going to die. In fact, after the near scrapes with Kaylee in the pilot, Mal and Wash at Niska's Skyplex, and Book while they were unloading cattle, I had it in my head that no one was going to die. Not ever.

So he took away Wash and Book. I wouldn't have done it. If I felt I had to do it, I'd have done it differently. But you know what? No one would ever read or watch one of my stories, wide eyed and open mouthed, and wonder if anyone was going to get out alive.

As for pleasing newbies, I hope he does please them. I hope he pleases them a lot. Because as many of us fans as there are, there aren't enough of us to bring in sequels. Not by a long shot. We need the newbies to get what we want: Sequels.

So if Joss did two things… if he made me fear for characters I'd assumed were safe, and he turned up the realism for the newbies, I'm glad. All hail the Newbies and their millions of dollars of ticket sales. We need them so much.

I am much more put out by the fact that Mal got shot in the back by the Operative to zero effect. Jayne's remarkable recovery after being impaled by a rusty metal pole is also notable. These are things that made the film less real, and worked against Joss' other moments.

But, all in all, small complaints for a good film.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



One minor disagreement AnthonyT, I believe there are enough Browncoats to cause a sequel BUT just to be on the safe side, I too want newbies to attend and become fans. I already have several friends who don't know Firefly that will be seeing the movie.

Mind you , it's hard for me to think unbiased (on the Serenity account) but when I go to new movies and like characters, it pisses me off when they die, it doesn't really make me a fan of the writer. But since I seem to be in the minority on that count anyway regarding Serenity or other movies hopefully we will get a flood of new Browncoats after the movie! I just still feel betrayed by the script and I can't change that no matter how much reason is placed before me.

I aim to misbehave!

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:22 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by MikeyMo:
Quote:

Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.



Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.

From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann



The getting back at Alan and Ron was a joke, it just caught me as funnt that they WERE the last 2 to sign on. I don't think I feel Joss IGNORED the fan base, I think it betrayed it and there's a difference in there. I know he was thinking about the Browncoats when he mentioned no one dying (in the Aussie Q & A) but when he changed his mind, well it was like a stab in the back. Sometimes it's better to be ignored, it's doesn't hurt as much (???)

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:28 PM

ZEEK


I don't think we got stabbed in the back. I think we got what we asked for. We wanted Joss to continue telling us stories in the Firefly verse. Joss did exactly that. It wasn't a fanfic. It was pure Joss. I went into the movie knowing that Joss might kill someone. Heck I have to go into every episode of a Joss tv show knowing that. I didn't really believe it was going to happen though. He's constantly able to dupe me into believing he'll go one way right before he goes another. I love it. It's what keeps me coming back. No matter what I think might happen...Joss is thinking of something else.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:33 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:




Yeah. This.

Fireflygal, you have the right to your opinion just like anyone else, I wasn't trying to dissuade you. I'm just saying you shouldn't 1) say Joss is ignoring or being unfair to the fanbase as a whole, because he isn't, and 2) accuse him of killing off characters that he loves just as much as you (probably more than you) for cheap or illegitimate reasons. If you didn't like it, fine. Not everyone likes everything. Doesn't mean Joss failed, or that he was being unfair or intentionally mean.



Sure sounded like you were trying to dissuade me I certainly don't believe that Joss was being intentionally mean, not at all and I'm sure he does love the characters more than any of us. His reasons, if part of it is to hook newbies, are legit all I asked is to know WHY he did it so I could try to reconcile it within myself somehow. I do believe to what I was expecting/wanted to see, he did fail. Serenity wasn't the movie I wanted to see, now before you get teetchy again...that's an ok thing because if all the other Browncoats on this post accept it and like it that's great. Joss is NOT out to please little me (duh) he's out to make money for Universal with the best movie he feels he can make AND get new fans and please the old fans. I won't NOT go see it again and again because I feel the movie failed what I wanted to see. It's still an action packed great movie, just because I want to smack Joss with a glove and challenge him to a sword fight because of what he did doesn't make me less of a fan! It just makes me a more verbal one

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:38 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by sefania:
I, too, was disappointed with the deaths of Book and Wash.

Yes, they are Joss' characters are he can do whatever he gorram pleases with them, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I can understand wanting to add realism to the film for the sake of the newbies. However, having watched Serenity with a newbie, what struck us most was that he didn't provide enough of a background for Book (especially) or Wash to fully comprehend how devastating their deaths were. And they were *devastating* to the fans.(I actually had someone tell me after the viewing that I should refrain from making any big decisions for a week or two, as it takes a while for the shock to wear off.)

Yes, it makes a sort of sense for characters to die. But if the show had not been cancelled, it would not have happened it the *next* episode. And for some fans, waiting so long for another glimpse of people we had grown to love, that is probably where expectations were at - a longer story arc, covering the ideas that would have been shown had the series continued (especially since we had already been hearing rumors of a trilogy!)

I think one of the things that upset me the most was that here we finally had a chance to interact with characters we had longed for - and didn't get the same level of interaction we had become accustomed to. It didn't feel as well-rounded and character-oriented. And that was frustrating. Yes, it was action-packed, and believe me, I love action as much as the next martial arts fan, but it wasn't as fulfilling because I *do* care about these characters.

Book's death served a purpose, and I could fathom how that decision came to be. (Hearing Ron Glass speak about his time with this cast, though, I am truly saddened that it had to happen this way.) But I was still frustrated - he appeared as a side character - not a part of the crew, as the fans knew him to be. It leaves out such a huge part of the background story and makes Book appear to be dispensable. Knowing more than was shown, I felt that Book's death *was* enough to show that not everyone is always going to make it out alright.

Which brings me to Wash...

I am distraught about Wash's death, not just because he was a great guy with a goofy sense of humor and the ability to not be in the center of the action, but also becuase of his relationship with Zoe. Here, finally, is a depiction of a healthy, mature, adult relationship - marriage on screen that isn't derogatory or whiny, featuring characters over the age of 25. I am disappointed that I will not get to see more of what they could explore together. (Albeit rumors have already started that Zoe may be pregnant, and it is more drama-filled to have Zoe raise her child without Wash.)

To be honest, Wash's death distracted me from the rest of the film. I didn't believe everyone else was going to die. I didn't believe he was dead. Zoe's simple "He's not coming" left me worlds of ideas for how Wash would make it through. It wasn't until the funeral scene before I realized the truth in her statement - he's really not coming.

Upon watching the scene at the end between Mal and River, it appears that (if I'm not mistaken) the answer to the question of "Then who's going to fly the ship?" will be River. And as much as River is the ultimate enigma in this 'verse, it was hard for me to sit silently and watch the entire focus become River. (Nothing against Summer Glau, a truly incredible actress, or against Joss' creation, as I love the skewed perspective River has.) But for me, Firefly was about nine truly unforgettable characters, interacting in a way that spoke volumes to me. And Serenity, which I was dying to see, was about River, with other characters in a supporting or even dispensable role.

The challenge for me, is that here is a movie I have been waiting for, hoping for, dying to see. I want to grab all of my friends and go on opening night and watch it and be able to bounce enthusiastically, even ecstatically, that we have our characters back and clamor for the next movie (and the next, and the one after that...)

And instead, I will get to face a shell-shocked group of people who have been waiting so long only to have the rug pulled out from under them.

Yes, it's a dramatic turn of events. Yes, it is realistic to have people die in the midst of battle. Yes, they're Joss' characters, and I will continue to support his right to do what he wants with them.

I also support the fans' rights to say "Hey, why'd you do that?" Especially as they are grieving for characters that they have come to know and care about. It's normal to feel hurt, devastated, outraged, and betrayed by the Creator of the 'verse when in shock and grieving. Let her be.

In the end, despite whatever frustrations I may have, I will go and support the movie. And hopefully the ones that come after. I just wish it could have happened another way.


-Michelle

"And when I said I'll take it, I meant as is." -Ani DiFranco



EXCELLENT post Sefania! I'm with you on almost all. You know maybe if he'd just waited until the next movie to kill off anyone I'd have felt "better". This was our first chance to see them in 3 years and now 2 are gonna. Just like you said, pulled the rug out!

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:45 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiversBounty:
FireflyGal, if you honestly feel that strongly, then I don't see why you would go see the film again. Because obviously this has colored your view of it and Joss.

But know that, as many others have pointed out, he does this for several reasons. He kills characters to break people's hearts, he does it to up the stakes, and he does it, usually, to propel a character arc that we may not see until the sequel (I for one, am extremely interested in seeing what place Zoe is in come the sequel, and what new developments will occur with her as a character, as a result of her dealing with losing Wash).

Also know, that it does pain him to do these things, but he does them because they make the story resonate, it gives it power, it sticks with you. He said in the past, that when he decided to kill the character of Tara on BtVS, he actually cried as he told the other writers. His characters are THAT close to him, but you can rant (and it is your right), just don't expect him to apologize. Many Tara fans got mad, and he explained himself, but he didn't apologize or "fix it."

And I understand that it hurts. It's supposed to. He did it for newbies AND us, though. I think his intention was to show newbies--who have seen countless action/sci fi films with no consequences--what kind of storyteller he is. That he has created a world where there are consequences, and people die, and that's a part of what makes "Serenity" different, and in most cases, better than what Hollywood churns out.

One last thing...eight people were entering a dangerous, life threatening situation--destroying their ship's ability to function, and with no means of escaping a larger, ruthless force (unlike, say, War Stories, where they could have fallen back and flown away).

So AT LEAST one person had to die, to make it at all realistic. And it raises the tension so much. Plus if nothing else ever came of it, it was worth it for me just to see Gina play Zoe's small moment of emotional breakdown right before Mal pulls her out of the way of the second harpoon. It was perfect.

If Joss hadn't killed Wash (and Book), he wouldn't be Joss. Besides, people would have died (maybe Wash and Book, maybe not) in the series eventually. Yet like the man says, we'll see them again...



Definitely not looking for an apology, just a simple why. Just want to understand. And I am really interested in his original idea of keeping everyone alive. I wonder if there would be a post here I'm calling Joss out because he DIDN'T kill one of BDH's if Serenity had a happy ending

And I will go see the movie over and over because I'm still a Browncoat, still support the actors and the cast and Universal for supporting Joss. Just can't say I'm really keen on Joss at the moment

I aim to misbehave!

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:54 PM

MINDSEYE


"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss

That's enough for me. :)

Freedom - Peace - Serenity

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:54 PM

MINDSEYE


"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss

That's enough for me. :)

Freedom - Peace - Serenity

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:28 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by mindseye:
"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss

That's enough for me. :)

Freedom - Peace - Serenity



Not me

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:40 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Watch this.......

Joss has been playing us with a sick sence of humor

Washs death was a part of some twisted alternate storyline, which of course will be included with the DVD when it come time for that...

Perhaps the same with Book ( Maybe Simon saves him )

With the pre screenings and hype... Joss is having fun with the Browncoats, watching us twist








At least I hope so.....



Soldiers Prayer:

Dear God..... If there is a god

Save my Soul.... If I have a soul

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:43 PM

RIVERSBOUNTY


Somehow I don't think any one of Joss' responses to why, and there have been responses, are going to satify you.

In a realistic world, sometimes death just happens. Unfair, unjustifiable death with no rhyme or reason. Wash unfortunately happened to be sitting in his chair when that harpoon crashed through and impaled him. That's a perfectly viable thing to illustrate, in my opinion. That life is just that fragile, unpredictable and sometimes you're screwed.

There's death like Book's, where he died defending his home and his flock in a very heroic fashion, there's the "just" death of Dr. Matthias, who some might argue deserved death because of his experiments, and there's the people on Miranda, who were victims like River, who had no say in any of it. And Wash's death, something he knew was a risk when he agreed to the plan, where he died doing what he believed was right.

But asking why is like asking why someone gets killed by a hit and run, five seconds after someone who crossed the street without incident. Why did that car come at THAT EXACT TIME? Who knows?

Like I said above, that's what I believe was being illustrated--that there is no answer, because the world is not that simple. It's a bunch of "What if?"'s most of the time.

And if he didn't kill Wash, it would've been someone else. Because you need to feel the peril, the pain. With the story being about the characters, if you don't buy that they might not make it, the final battle is just several minutes of, "Nice gunplay, but meh, they're all gonna be fine anyway."

I don't know what other kind of answer you expect.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:06 PM

STROESS


Just my 2 cents...

I know a lot of people can accept that Wash and Book die without much fuss. I only wish I could do the same. I watched FireFly in order to escape reality. If I needed a fresh dose of death and dying, I only need to look at the news. I was really hoping that Serenity would supply me with a continuation of FireFly and that I could leave the theater happy. Unfortunatly, I don't see how people can leave happy when their favorite characters are dead. I felt like I lost two of my friends when Wash and Book died, and I really have no need to pay any more money to feel that way again.

I had planned on seeing Serenity every week (or at least every other) in order to supply as much support as I could for a sequel. However, I just no longer want to spend my money in order to feel sad. It's just too bad, really.

I definitely respect all of you who are OK with how Serenity turned out. I really wish I could be one of you. Unfortunately, I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.

Thanks for listening...

Stroess

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 2:49 PM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?


Quote:

Originally posted by Stroess:
...I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.



But it *did* bring you joy? Just not as much as you wanted.


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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:45 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Watch this.......

Joss has been playing us with a sick sence of humor

Washs death was a part of some twisted alternate storyline, which of course will be included with the DVD when it come time for that...

Perhaps the same with Book ( Maybe Simon saves him )

With the pre screenings and hype... Joss is having fun with the Browncoats, watching us twist








At least I hope so.....



Soldiers Prayer:

Dear God..... If there is a god

Save my Soul.... If I have a soul



I like your thinking. I kept hoping it was all a bad joke when I saw the first 2 "unfinished" previews and hoped the final cut would have 9 health members!

I aim to misbehave!

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:53 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Stroess:
Just my 2 cents...

I know a lot of people can accept that Wash and Book die without much fuss. I only wish I could do the same. I watched FireFly in order to escape reality. If I needed a fresh dose of death and dying, I only need to look at the news. I was really hoping that Serenity would supply me with a continuation of FireFly and that I could leave the theater happy. Unfortunatly, I don't see how people can leave happy when their favorite characters are dead. I felt like I lost two of my friends when Wash and Book died, and I really have no need to pay any more money to feel that way again.

I had planned on seeing Serenity every week (or at least every other) in order to supply as much support as I could for a sequel. However, I just no longer want to spend my money in order to feel sad. It's just too bad, really.

I definitely respect all of you who are OK with how Serenity turned out. I really wish I could be one of you. Unfortunately, I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.

Thanks for listening...

Stroess



Thank you so much for making my point. I'm not alone! You could've come to the rescue a bit sooner though, felt like Serenity Valley in this post!

But listen Stroess, even though I hated what happenend I will still support the movies and I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from. Please DON'T withdraw your support because Joss betrayed us. He did have the right to write what he wanted, we don't have to accept it or like it (I still just wanna know why) but we still want the sequels, right? We still should support the actors who gave their hearts to their roles. I am bitching and moaning but I will go see it repeatedly. Please continue your support. Even if you don't want to see it, buy a ticket for a friend or several.

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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:26 PM

JADEHAND


Hey FFG,
We talked a bit about this at D*C. I'm sorry it looks like things will remain the way they were. As I said then, I hate that it happened too, but it doesn't ruin it for me. As others have brought up, Things were the same with Doyle(in Angel), Tara(in Buffy), and many others. Unfortunately, we got to see the others move on and/or deal with the loss in the following weeks, here we have to wait a couple of years for the sequel.
Now this won't make you feel good, I read somewhere that the crew was originally just 5. Joss later brought it up to 9. I think we were lucky to have all 9 as long as we did, and I half expect to lose 2 more in the next one to bring it down to the original 5. Now I don't know who the original 5 were, but based on the "no happy relationships" thing, I'd guess we may be short a doctor and a companion by the end of 2 or 3.





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Wednesday, September 14, 2005 6:28 PM

BATMARLOWE


I haven't read this thread, but I can't wait to see the movie to find out what it's all about.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:46 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I haven't read this thread, but I can't wait to see the movie to find out what it's all about.



Boy are you in for a "surprise"

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:49 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jadehand:
Hey FFG,
We talked a bit about this at D*C. I'm sorry it looks like things will remain the way they were. As I said then, I hate that it happened too, but it doesn't ruin it for me. As others have brought up, Things were the same with Doyle(in Angel), Tara(in Buffy), and many others. Unfortunately, we got to see the others move on and/or deal with the loss in the following weeks, here we have to wait a couple of years for the sequel.
Now this won't make you feel good, I read somewhere that the crew was originally just 5. Joss later brought it up to 9. I think we were lucky to have all 9 as long as we did, and I half expect to lose 2 more in the next one to bring it down to the original 5. Now I don't know who the original 5 were, but based on the "no happy relationships" thing, I'd guess we may be short a doctor and a companion by the end of 2 or 3.





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Yeah, Jadehand, we had a nice little talk at DC. Since I wasn't a Joss fan I can't answer to the Buffy and Angel "killings". I should have realized, though, that since he'd done it before, he'd do it again, I just honestly didn't think he'd do it in the first movie. But Joss says he doesn't write with the sequel in mind. I guess we all wait and see.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:42 AM

SHAKESPEARE


Quote:

Originally posted by fireflygal:

I have been lucky enough to see Serenity three times now and I hate it more each time I see it. No, allow me to rephrase that, I hate Joss Whedon more each time I see Serenity. I have heard that same phrase uttered from many other Browncoats, as well, after each preview. I’m calling Joss Whedon out onto the carpet to answer to the fans. Why? Why did you take the sky from us?

We all know what I’m talking about – Book and Wash. There was no reason in the ‘verse for them to die. I don’t care how noble their deaths were. It’s a story; it CAN have a happy ending. All the characters can live through the trilogy. Yes, there will be a trilogy if the Browncoats have any say in the matter and we do. We will see the movie, we will bring friends and repeat numerous times. We will make Fox wish they never cancelled Firefly. I will see it again and again despite what Whedon did; ripping my heart out by killing two of the wonderful characters I had come to love and laugh with.

Rumor has it that all nine cast members are signed for the trilogy but I don’t want flashbacks, the Browncoats don’t want flashbacks. We want nine characters alive and well, (we’ll even take wounded), to move into the future – together – on new adventures.

Does anyone else feel betrayed?



I think you have a right to your response, and I can tell you that it's a response that I saw in a lot of people after the screening I went to see. I write novels, and yes I know what Joss had in mind by killing both characters, but that doesn't mean it's going to sit well with all fans or that it was even necessary.

Did Wash's death create a sense of panic and disbelief in the third act for loyal fans of Firefly, sure it did. Does that mean he had to do it to achieve that affect, of course not.

One thing that gets limited discussion in the spoiler threads is just how indestructible the captain is in his final duel with the agent. Here Joss pushes believability to its raggedy edge in the opposite direction of Wash and Book.

Death is a really tricky thing to pull off when you're dealing with beloved characters. You shouldn't feel bad for expressing your anger. I think the film has a lot of merit despite its flaws, but I can certainly understand how Wash and Book's death could ruin the movie for some.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:56 AM

WIBBLEDTODEATH


First I want to thank FFG for makin this thread. Honestly, while I understand the reasons for killing 2 characters off....It didnt help me enjoy the movie. I appreciate you expressing your grief....and join in empathising with it. It is healthy to express these things...and makes me feel much better that I am not alone.

Althogh I am looking forward to actually watching the end. I was 2 shellshocked to take much in the 1st time around.

Quote:

Originally posted by Shakespeare:


One thing that gets limited discussion in the spoiler threads is just how indestructible the captain is in his final duel with the agent. Here Joss pushes believability to its raggedy edge in the opposite direction of Wash and Book.




The whole nerve pinch thing was a bit...um...well...Joss action shortcut really (he does that). But the whole thing about people gettin shot and stabbed through and still going.....

While NOT what we expect to see after a diet of hollywood action in which 1 shot kills...fact is that its the common expectation that is wrong...not Joss in this case.

Most people, when shot or stabbed...go down because they are in pain, shock...or just because thats what they are expected to do. This is a purely psychological reaction...those who are prepared, determined, on drugs that dull pain, or just really really hyped-up wont drop till they bleed out unless the CNS has been disrupted (hit to brain or spine). Reputable ballistics websites and police shooting statistics will varify this...

I am guessing that at the end the characters were feeling pretty determined.

----------------------------------------
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life. (:~D

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:41 AM

PHOEBE


I know that Simon and River originally weren't going to be part of the crew; they just liked their performance so much that the writers decided to keep them. Possibly Book and Inara? Or Jayne? I don't see how they could not have Mal, Kaylee, Zoe and Wash as four for sure.

Personally, I would have felt FAR more betrayed by Joss if nobody had died. I would have felt betrayed if I went to see Serenity - a movie of realism, of wit, and intelligence - and came out after seeing a fairy tale. Sure, it hurt. Sure, we'd have loved to have seen more of them. But the fact that you felt something at all made Serenity so much better.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"But the whole thing about people gettin shot and stabbed through and still going.....

While NOT what we expect to see after a diet of hollywood action in which 1 shot kills...fact is that its the common expectation that is wrong...not Joss in this case.

Most people, when shot or stabbed...go down because they are in pain, shock...or just because thats what they are expected to do. This is a purely psychological reaction...those who are prepared, determined, on drugs that dull pain, or just really really hyped-up wont drop till they bleed out unless the CNS has been disrupted (hit to brain or spine). Reputable ballistics websites and police shooting statistics will varify this...

I am guessing that at the end the characters were feeling pretty determined."

Hello,

As a fan of ballistics and ONS statistics, I can confirm that one-shot-stops only occur a percentage of the time.

However, the expectation given to us in the Firefly universe is that when people are shot, something happens. They fall down, they get hurt, or they die. There is never a case in the entire series or movie where someone is shot and there is no effect...

except when the Operative shoots Mal. In this case, nothing happens, except a verbal exchange between Mal and the Operative. There is not any apparent injury or effect. Mal simply turns around, complains about being shot in the back, exchanges words, and wins in a fast-draw before entering extended melee combat.

I will concur with those who claim that THIS is the most grievous error in the movie. This scene stretched realism more than any other.


--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:46 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Yeah know what you mean fireflygal, when I got spoiled by accident it pissed me off no end, and it killed my feelings for Firefly. Its odd, but it died that day, on an enthusiasm scale from 1 to 100, i was at 90 but it dropped to 5 i guess.
I don't hate it, but if there never is another i don't really care. Besides, they all say its not more firefly its a new hybrid (Firefly is dead, long live Serenity).

Of course Joss has oddly enough said we'll see them again if there is a second movie they will both be back, or rather "see them again". Perhap sin flashbacks, who knows, not being Trek I'm not sure his universe is wide enough to have them resurrected again.

Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:17 AM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE


If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think? Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.

"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:18 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL


When I saw Serenity, I assumed that Mal was wearing some sort of bullet proof vest under his shirt in the final battle, as we have seen Zoe (and Mal I think?) wear in the series and the Operative wear earlier in the movie. I have not read confirmation of this anywhere, but it made sense to me at the time. That's why he could get shot in the back and turn around and give the Operative attitude for it, rather than collapse in pain.

As for Mal getting run-through with a sword, well, I have no explanation for that....

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:25 AM

DUCESTECUM


To FFG from Duces Tecum and Zipply, two original, hardcore, die hard Browncoats who have also been here since DAY ONE.

Duces:

FFG, my fellow coworker and Browncoat buddy Zipply just told me about this thread which is why I haven't been on earlier to say, "You go girl." Zip and I both agree with you completely. I'm not very eloquent but he is and I am going to try to tell you what he said. He made some points I want to share.

We were never Buffy or Angel fans, nor do we worship Joss Whedon. We are Firefly fans and are grateful to him for creating the 'verse.

How many of us would have hung around for the last two years knowing how this movie would turn out (meaning, two of the ensemble, our beloved characters, would be snuffed)? The music that we enjoyed so much in Firefly apparently was not good enough for the movie. The Western aspects, ditto.

Most of this year we have stood around discussing Serenity and making excuses for Joss. "He had to do the things he did to make sure the movie is a hit so we can have two more movies."

Friends I have to say, the more I read about the movie, the more I have to say, "Yup, it's a Buffy in space flick." Firefly is over, two of our BDH's are dead and if Joss is so almighty why didn't he figure out a way to at least keep Book on? I think the thing I hated the most is that I felt, perceived, that Ron Glass NEEDED THE WORK! and Joss cheated him out of gainful employment! Alan Tudyk has so many choices, he's okay and I'm not at all concerned about him even though I hate like hell that Wash is dead.

At this point, the only reason I am going to the movie is because it has been a planned event with many Browncoats for a long time. I positively will not be seeing it a second time.

Zip:

"One thing I liked about our little 'verse was that it was comprised of thoughtful adult types (regardless of actual ages). I fear after the release of the movie, FFF will become chock full of gothic teens saying, "Did you see the way River swung that axe? That was awesome, duuude!" I liked that us original Browncoats were more interested in the way that Book swung that dialogue."

Anyway, we both feel the same way, and are in agreement with you FFG. I'm sure we'll be chastized and criticized but what the hey, we're Browncoats, we're tough and we can take it.


And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:27 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Quote:

Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think?



Well if you werent totally dense you would have understod that you aren't. I specifically wrote I wasn't talking to you and your kind, only the original poster.

Quote:

Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:

Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.



Ok retard, try to get this through you dense scull: REAL FEELINGS!

The whole point of making art is to create feelings in the viewer - that doesn't mean the work that created those feelings is something we agree with. And just because you are a hollow shell without emotion doesn't mean everybody else is.

No kindly stop writing to me, idiots are such a chore.


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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:28 AM

PHOEBE


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.



To be fair, it is the right of 'the drones' to think and feel about that any way they want. They feel that it's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes and that they'll accept it. That's how THEY think and feel. Would you like it if you had twenty responses to this post saying "It's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already"?

* Grammar fixed

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:33 AM

RIVERSBOUNTY


I don't appreciate being labelled a "drone," thank you very much. I have just as much a right to express a counterpoint as you do to agree to someone else's. And I never told anyone how to feel, a question of "Why?" was posed, and I tried to answer it as best I could.

I'm a big supporter of Joss Whedon. No other stories have moved me the way his has. That's a fact, I will not apologize for it, and it does not make a drone or a fanboy. While there have been some things across his shows I feel could have been executed somewhat better, for the most part, he keeps me enthralled, making me laugh, cry, and everything in between.

I love "Serenity." I saw it, and I was riveted the entire time. Wash's and Book's deaths made me gasp and tear, and left me stunned. But I was proud that they died doing what they believed was right, and hopefully their sacrifices to see the truth told, will mean a (probably slow) change in the 'Verse.

But the crew getting the signal out and scoring a small victory, Kaylee and Simon finally getting together, a hint that Mal and Inara would maybe progress, River's recovery, Mal finding belief in something again, and to see Serenity repaired and "still flyin'" all made me cheer.

Joss moved me through a range of emotions. The only other film to do that recently for me, was last year's "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind," which I saw four times in the theater. The point is, it's rare for me to experience ANYTHING as a passive moviegoer, and for Joss' two hour story to do that as strongly as I did, well, I thank him. A lot.

"Serenity" was a continuation of where "Firefly" would have gone, and even if there's no sequels, I'm glad to have gotten to see it. I'm sorry others don't feel the same, but to each their own.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:38 AM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE


I'm the idiot?

Understood is not spelled understod.

It's"NoW kindly stop writing me". Not "No stop..."

Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit. Nice talk nazi.

As far as a hollow shell without emotion?
FUCK YOU!....I believe that was rage I was feeling.


"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:39 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Drones are those who spew lithany without thinking.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:46 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:48 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Quote:

Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
I'm the idiot?



Clearly, if you spew nonense like its not real, they are just characters.

Quote:


Understood is not spelled understod.



You are also an idiot for starting to focus on irrelevant spelling mistakes, this is the equivalent of chatting not a school essay. English is not my first language and I can't be bothered to install a spell checker at this machine I'm at now, you clearly comprehended what I meant (and i assure you, I spell infinitely better in your language that you do in mine)

Quote:


Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit.



Now go and bully someone jerk.


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Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:51 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Quote:

Originally posted by Phoebe:
Quote:


To be fair, it is the right of 'the drones' to think and feel about that any way they want. They feel that it's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes and that they'll accept it. That's how THEY think and feel.



Just rebelling against the hypocrisy of them usually thinking its ok they can feel what they want but that others are not allowed. Sure, they are allowed as long as I don't have to hear it ;)

Quote:


* Grammar fixed



You are handy to have around ;)

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:12 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net



Too true, Pizmo, I couldn't agree more. This is for Joss

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:45 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Yeah know what you mean fireflygal, when I got spoiled by accident it pissed me off no end, and it killed my feelings for Firefly. Its odd, but it died that day, on an enthusiasm scale from 1 to 100, i was at 90 but it dropped to 5 i guess.
I don't hate it, but if there never is another i don't really care. Besides, they all say its not more firefly its a new hybrid (Firefly is dead, long live Serenity).

Of course Joss has oddly enough said we'll see them again if there is a second movie they will both be back, or rather "see them again". Perhap sin flashbacks, who knows, not being Trek I'm not sure his universe is wide enough to have them resurrected again.

Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.



Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized. We both have the right to be pissed off and betrayed but please let the other Browncoats have their say too. You don't have to read their replies

I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better.... I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.

We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:53 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
I'm the idiot?

Understood is not spelled understod.

It's"NoW kindly stop writing me". Not "No stop..."

Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit. Nice talk nazi.

As far as a hollow shell without emotion?
FUCK YOU!....I believe that was rage I was feeling.


"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity



Hi N&A, I am hoping to keep this a civil post from here forward. I have requested FlyingTams "be nice" and hope you will do the same (let's nevermind who started it, ok). I definitely see everyone's point, I'm a Libra, I do that well but I don't have to agree with them

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:55 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Quote:

Originally posted by fireflygal:

Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized.


Well its your thread fireflygal :)

Quote:


You don't have to read their replies



Good idea ;)

Quote:


I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better....


Not sure what is better, at least now I'm prepared.

Quote:

I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.


I'm sure it will do well. Actually I'm not sure, I guess there is a part of me still hoping it will. But perhaps its just too strange for the audience at large to be exposed to good dialogue.

Quote:


We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.



I'm not, and never were - but I loved Firefly there, for a moment.

Peace is just the interval between wars, best spent preparing for the next.


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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:18 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Quote:

Originally posted by fireflygal:

Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized.


Well its your thread fireflygal :)

Quote:


You don't have to read their replies



Good idea ;)

Quote:


I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better....



Not sure what is better, at least now I'm prepared.

Quote:

I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.


I'm sure it will do well. Actually I'm not sure, I guess there is a part of me still hoping it will. But perhaps its just too strange for the audience at large to be exposed to good dialogue.

Quote:


We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.



I'm not, and never were - but I loved Firefly there, for a moment.

Peace is just the interval between wars, best spent preparing for the next.




Thanks for keeping the peace here FlyingTams, let's make that interval as long as possible

How come you're not a Browncoat? You're a fan, right? You watched the show. You're on the boards. That makes you a Browncoat, at least that's my definition.

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:21 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net]

Thank you, thank you, thank you PB! None of the friends that I know hate what Joss did have posted, so it was rather lonely for a while.

By the way, I love scifiradio (the free version) but it often just stops on me

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:33 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
To FFG from Duces Tecum and Zipply, two original, hardcore, die hard Browncoats who have also been here since DAY ONE.

Duces:

FFG, my fellow coworker and Browncoat buddy Zipply just told me about this thread which is why I haven't been on earlier to say, "You go girl." Zip and I both agree with you completely. I'm not very eloquent but he is and I am going to try to tell you what he said. He made some points I want to share.

We were never Buffy or Angel fans, nor do we worship Joss Whedon. We are Firefly fans and are grateful to him for creating the 'verse.

How many of us would have hung around for the last two years knowing how this movie would turn out (meaning, two of the ensemble, our beloved characters, would be snuffed)? The music that we enjoyed so much in Firefly apparently was not good enough for the movie. The Western aspects, ditto.

Most of this year we have stood around discussing Serenity and making excuses for Joss. "He had to do the things he did to make sure the movie is a hit so we can have two more movies."

Friends I have to say, the more I read about the movie, the more I have to say, "Yup, it's a Buffy in space flick." Firefly is over, two of our BDH's are dead and if Joss is so almighty why didn't he figure out a way to at least keep Book on? I think the thing I hated the most is that I felt, perceived, that Ron Glass NEEDED THE WORK! and Joss cheated him out of gainful employment! Alan Tudyk has so many choices, he's okay and I'm not at all concerned about him even though I hate like hell that Wash is dead.

At this point, the only reason I am going to the movie is because it has been a planned event with many Browncoats for a long time. I positively will not be seeing it a second time.

Zip:

"One thing I liked about our little 'verse was that it was comprised of thoughtful adult types (regardless of actual ages). I fear after the release of the movie, FFF will become chock full of gothic teens saying, "Did you see the way River swung that axe? That was awesome, duuude!" I liked that us original Browncoats were more interested in the way that Book swung that dialogue."

Anyway, we both feel the same way, and are in agreement with you FFG. I'm sure we'll be chastized and criticized but what the hey, we're Browncoats, we're tough and we can take it.


And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job



Thanks DT and Zipply, now I have visions of Goths becoming Browncoats, I didn't need to think about that! It would certainly be nice if we Browncoats could hold Firefly as our little secret but it is a business and we need those Goths and teeny boppers and everyone so Serenity can be a success and we can see what Joss the Ripper has in mind for the sequel, who dies this time??? Even though Serenity did not go the way we wanted, I hope you guys will still see it more than once. Let's face it, it really is a very actiony movie and worth watching

Thanks for coming out on my side, appreciate the support!

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows? I have not taken time to read through this thread, as I'm sure other such 'nuggets' of joyful speculation have been dropped by other posters.

I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.

As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:38 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows? I have not taken time to read through this thread, as I'm sure other such 'nuggets' of joyful speculation have been dropped by other posters.

I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.

As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Please AURaptor, enough with the good news, only 1 left standing in the end, boy what a post I'll start if that happens!

Say I missed you at DragonCon, what happened?

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:40 PM

SPINLAND


Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.

But ....

I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.

I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.

I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:56 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Spinland:
Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.

But ....

I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.

I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.

I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.



Sorry about you being spoiled, that's no fun! but you will enjoy the movie, just as I did. You'll be pissed just like I was. In the end we're all still Browncoats and hopefully we'll all support the movie, pissed or not!

I aim to misbehave!

Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
www.cafepress.com/fillies
www.cafepress.com/fireflyflan

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:06 PM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE


he start-----If you read my first post I was civil.The main point was I was just asking a question.If you read my profile, you know that I love this universe.The anger posts,were immature but I mean seriously how can you take my anger serious when my screen name is NAKEDANDARTICULATE. (insert laugh track here) Bottom line, I just want this film to do well, not just for Joss, or for sequels, or for the actors, or even for the other universe he created-buffster. I want it to do well,because everyone here is a FAN of this universe.It touched something within all of us.It may hurt(I cried at the funeral scene,and when Tara died and when Wes died,and especially when Anya didn't understand death) but it also brought us joy and passion ,wonder and above all hope.So that is all, sorry

"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:10 PM

PSYCHICRIVER


Spread love, not war!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:48 PM

LUCKYSPENCER7


Quote:

Originally posted by Retro:
I can't say it any better than these people



ditto.

Wash's death made my inner child cry, yet I still think it falls into place perfectly.

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Spinland:
Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.
But ...
I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.

I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.

I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.



Some love/hate thing you have going for Joss there..heh heh. And my condolences for you having been spoilt and not even seen the BDM yet. As for my own self, I'm late to the whole Joss worhsip thing. Firefly definatly has touched me far more than anything else he's done, but I like going back to watch repeats of Angel (more ) and Buffy ( not so much ), just to get a 'feel' for his writing. I've become quite good at picking out specific lines,words, phrases that appear in all 3 shows.

Anyway, I enjoyed the BDM more the 2nd time. Even knowing what was gonna happen. Or mabye because....? It definatly has its moments that will knock your socks off. Did for me.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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