'We live on a spaceship, dear.' *thar be spoilers* by chrisisall

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

'We live on a spaceship, dear.' *thar be spoilers*

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:27
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3770
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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:32 AM

Got problems with River vanquishin' the Reavers? Wash getting it? Mal surviving some beatings/run throughs?
Remember what Zoe said.
FF/Serenity is a story, and a damn good (no, GREAT) one.

Relax, enjoy.

Tune in PBS for reality.

Chrisisall happy with the world (Joss made)

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:37 AM

KAZZAHDRANE

Yarr, truer words were ne'er said!

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:47 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Well said Stuntman :)

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Friday, October 21, 2005 8:05 AM

ANGELCRUSHERD

Funny how this Sci-Fi/Western is more of a reality than all reality shows in the history of television. This 'story' is one of the best 'stories' that I've ever encountered, no matter how closely it ties into my ideals and interests- at the end of the day it's just a story. However, as a Browncoat, it's my duty to uphold my obsession.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:32 PM

CHICAGOBROWNCOAT

Just putting my two cents in on this issue. lol

Rember Irina was a supporter of the Aliance and for all practical purposes a legal, loyal Aliance citizen. lol She shows that all citizens arent corrupt in the Aliance. Just thoes in the government. (kinda scary thinking about the Bush Adminstration and the Aliance :( )

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:07 PM

HKCAVALIER

Chris, please, tell me what I'm supposed to do with my disappointment, if I don't come here and commiserate with fellow disappointed fans? Shut up and go away? Realize the error of my ways and convert? Seriously, what does it harm any of you satisfied customers that a few of us simply didn't buy what Joss was selling this time out? I really feel pressure from posts like this to somehow stop being me and join the freakin' cult, y'know what I mean?

I'm as downhearted about these developments as I can be about a t.v. show and its movie spinoff. I've spent more time on this site than any other single website out there. I never thought I would enjoy being part of an online community this much. I've made some wonderful contacts thru this site, you and your wife (however briefly) among them. What do I do now? I'd like to get this disappointment out of my system and move on. But every time I see a thread like yours here, I feel talked down to and misunderstood and I feel the need to explain myself all over again. Just let our silly grief processes take their silly courses, will ya?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:19 PM

DREAMTROVE

It's okay, go rewatch wash scenes and eps. and take what there is. If you want really good Wash content, I particularly like the blooper real, esp. the segment where he talks about Zoe to the interrogator.

It's on the DVD, I think there's a longer blooper real online somewhere.

Anyway, then take solace in that, though this is all the Wash there is, Joss will create new characters to focus on.

I was a fan of Wash, but I can see his Ex-ing because he lightens the mood maybe too much for what Joss has in mind to do. And yeah, you got that tense right. I think Joss has plans for more firefly story, and this more firefly story has a darker tone to it, I think that's why lighter story elements were removed. Sadly, Wash was a casualty of that. But, when in grief or withdrawal, there is always rewatching. That's why God gave us DVD. Or maybe it was the Japanese. Actually, technically, I think it was IBM.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:15 PM

LADYBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Chris, please, tell me what I'm supposed to do with my disappointment, if I don't come here and commiserate with fellow disappointed fans? Shut up and go away? Realize the error of my ways and convert? Seriously, what does it harm any of you satisfied customers that a few of us simply didn't buy what Joss was selling this time out? I really feel pressure from posts like this to somehow stop being me and join the freakin' cult, y'know what I mean?

I'm as downhearted about these developments as I can be about a t.v. show and its movie spinoff. I've spent more time on this site than any other single website out there. I never thought I would enjoy being part of an online community this much. I've made some wonderful contacts thru this site, you and your wife (however briefly) among them. What do I do now? I'd like to get this disappointment out of my system and move on. But every time I see a thread like yours here, I feel talked down to and misunderstood and I feel the need to explain myself all over again. Just let our silly grief processes take their silly courses, will ya?

HKCavalier

Here Here HKCavalier! You speak for a lot of us and thank you for that.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 1:43 AM

DONCOAT

Maybe this forum needs to split into two.

One could be called "Loved Firefly but Serenity Tore My Heart Out.net", and HKC and those like him can take all their negative waves there.

The other could be "Serenity Was a Worthy Follow-On to Firefly.net".

That way nobody has to have their feelings sneered at.

In case anybody's in doubt, I'll be hanging out in the latter crowd.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:42 AM

XANDERHARRIS

I'm with sparticus chrisisall. let the factioning BEGIN!

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 4:16 AM

PHOEBE

I don't mean this to talk down to anyone, but I just don't understand it... at all...

If you unhappy folks wanted another episode of Firefly... why did you go see the MOVIE?

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:16 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Seriously, what does it harm any of you satisfied customers that a few of us simply didn't buy what Joss was selling this time out? I really feel pressure from posts like this to somehow stop being me and join the freakin' cult, y'know what I mean? But every time I see a thread like yours here, I feel talked down to and misunderstood and I feel the need to explain myself all over again.

Wow, that's certainly not the intention of this thread.
HK, you're one of this community that I hold in highest regard, I waited with baited breath to see your review of Serenity- and it surprised me (and even hurt to read in some ways) how much you were upset with the BDM! It made me re-examine my take on the movie to the point where I was thinking "How can I like this movie so much if HK thinks it's bad??"
I started the 'Serenity's not it' thread because I was hearing SO much from others about 'It's different', 'It's just action', etc., so I wanted to hear if there was a consensus of some kind; and I found out there was. You're not alone, and after reading your initial post there, I considered it point by point, and as I read, I thought "Maybe I'm wrong, mostly all of these points are valid, maybe it is Matrix 3 all over again, and I just don't want to see it..."
You see, I'm not that easily swayed, but when someone like you says something, I take it seriously. And in the end I have to say that Serenity's a dark, forceful, painful final episode (for me), but given the choice to love it or hate it (NO other option is possible for me), I have to love it, for it is a logical extention of FF (although entirely missing the western feel, the family moments, and the languid pace the show was wont to explore), and I truly feel it's great.
I fear people who may be on the fence about the BDM (the extremist in me finds that reality hard to embrace) may examine too closely the points of contention concerning the 'unrealities' and darker turn the BDM took, and dismiss an otherwise enjoyable tale in favour of being in the 'this' camp, rather than the 'that' camp, and this thread is an attempt to get people to relax about the whole thing (camp A or camp B), and just try enjoying the film on it's own terms. Plenty of time to dismiss it after the time it takes to let it sink in.
It actually hurts me that you, HK, can't enjoy the movie even 1/10 as much as I can (it seems), it was the single biggest rush I've had since The Empire Strikes Back, I only wish that you could see it the way I do...

I can totally see how Serenity missed the mark for long-time fans of the series (being real here, discovering FF in Feb. of this year still marks me as a newbie), but think where Buffy went in the last two seasons...Serenity was bound to be dark, and given the lack of the luxury of seasons to get there, I thought Serenity was as good a movie as we could've gotten.

I'll state it again (with screens and shields up),
I'm glad FF didn't degenerate into melo-dramatic nonsense like Buffy 6, or Angel 4, that would've hurt more than cancellation, I think.
I believe we got the best tale possible, all around.

I'm sorry for all the folk that feel otherwise, and y'all really have my sympathy, you really do.
Peace.

Chrisisall, who bows to HK's wisdom on EVERY OTHER TOPIC HE HAS EVER POSTED TO, and the ones yet to come...

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:26 AM

LIMINALOSITY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Chrisisall happy with the world (Joss made)

Hey Chris! Yeah, me three. I'm gonna save my crit till after it's out of the theaters, which I hope won't be till sometime in 06.
Does anybody say 'ought six? I think we should hijack that concept, cause it fits in with the patois.

I tried not to have too many preconcieved notions of what might happen, and I'm really glad I just let Joss take me where he wanted. We forget sometimes that it's his gig, we're just along for the ride. Anyway, thanks for the cheery thread. I believe everyone's entitled to their own op, and I'm glad to be able to access differences in op here, but I really liked it. IT! All of it, FFF's and SSS's. My favorite Joss so far.

Bright 'n shiny cap'n, not to fret.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:34 AM

ALAND

I say live and let live. I'm sure there were people who hated Shakespeare because he killed off Romeo and Juliet, but so what? In the long run, do those people matter?

I *love* that the movie wasn't just safe inoffensive regurgitated pap, and that it was able to take me places the series couldn't.

Good artists will try to challenge their audience, and I'm thankful that Universal had the conviction to let Joss go where Fox feared to tread. But not everyone wants to be challenged like that. No big deal. Let them eat pap.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:34 AM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
I can totally see how Serenity missed the mark for long-time fans of the series (being real here, discovering FF in Feb. of this year still marks me as a newbie), but think where Buffy went in the last two seasons...Serenity was bound to be dark, and given the lack of the luxury of seasons to get there, I thought Serenity was as good a movie as we could've gotten.

What makes this Camp A/Camp B thing all the more painful, though, Chrisisall, is the fact that it's not just a divide between old time browncoats and new fans. I may be rather new on this site, but I caught "The Train Job" on FOX back in '02 and have been a browncoat ever since--and I loved the movie. On the other hand, I've seen folks who watched the series just days before seeing the movie (or even after seeing the movie) and coming away disappointed in the BDM.

I don't really have a solution. But I will note something about Joss' work. He tries to make every story he tells self-contained while also contributing to the whole. What this means is you can be disappointed or even reject a particular story, while still embracing the whole. There are "Buffy" and "Angel" fans who block out a specific season while still embracing the whole of the series. I know I try to block out large portions of "Angel" season three and four while still loving "Angel in general and enjoying the seasons that came before and after. Hopefully, something similar will come to pass here--I suspect sequels might also be something of a cure; many folks who don't care for the BDM might discover they enjoy the BDS. Of course, first we have to get sequels. But I think the community can still stick together, we'll just recognize a difference of opinion on this particular story and instead try to discuss things that unite us.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:48 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
But I think the community can still stick together, we'll just recognize a difference of opinion on this particular story and instead try to discuss things that unite us.

Yes, yes, well put, and the aim of this thread.

The next thread should be titled 'Browncoats unite!'

Who wants to start it?

Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:57 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AlanD:
I'm sure there were people who hated Shakespeare because he killed off Romeo and Juliet, but so what? In the long run, do those people matter?

Hey, pal, I was one of those people (in another life)! William was ripping off Tommy of York, the blacksmith down the block with whom William attended a writer's group, and Tommy's version had a HAPPY ENDING!!!!

Copyrights are a great invention!

Chrisisall

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:36 AM

ALAND

Sorry, my last post was a little harsh. I'd been reading a lot of that "Joss Made My Daughter Cry" thread and hadn't really gotten into the spirit of this one.

What it comes down to for me, is the difference between entertainment and art. If an entertainer produces something that everyone loves, then she is a success. If an artists does the same, then he is a failure.

Joss isn't *trying* to produce shows that everyone will love all of the time. And that's what makes them great.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 9:08 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AlanD:
Sorry, my last post was a little harsh. I'd been reading a lot of that "Joss Made My Daughter Cry" thread and hadn't really gotten into the spirit of this one.

My last post was pure goof, not pointin' a finger or anything...
And what the

is somebody bringin' (what seems to be) a sensitive 11 year old girl to a PG-13 action/sci-fi for??? I didn't even think 'War Stories' was appropriate for a child!

Quote:

Joss isn't *trying* to produce shows that everyone will love all of the time. And that's what makes them great.

Yep. A goodly mix of Art and Entertainment, I'd say.

Chrisisall, who really didn't know Tommy of York

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 9:55 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Chris, thanks for your thoughts and your kind words. I'm really humbled by your respect for my opinion, but you ain't wrong about the movie at all. Here's a thing: I actually liked the third Matrix movie, if you can believe that. It didn't end the way any of us expected, but I found it very sad, sobering and satisfying. We're all different.

When somebody likes a work of art that I couldn't appreciate, it makes me genuinely happy. I know that someone put their heart and soul into making even the cheesiest dreck and that deserves to be celebrated no matter what. But I also know myself and understand that I ain't gonna love every work of art I see.

In one sense, I can see it as a simple case of pet peeves. For instance, I don't tend to like martial arts fights that go on too long in a movie unless both combatants are masters and the choreography is tight. The idea that Mal could hold his own for so long with the Operative just breaks the back of the story for me at that point. Half way through the fight I get bored, start thinking about Jimmy and Timmy fighting on Southpark. I never expected to be bored by the BDM. I was never, ever bored for even a minute during the entire run of Firefly. I know a lot of folks who were bored by whole episodes of Firefly.

A lot of it comes down to what we anticipate, what we desire to see--some of that comes under the heading of expectations, which we have some control over (I don't know if I have ever allowed my expectations to be as high as they were going into Serenity), but some of it is what I've come to call a matter of emotional autobiography.

We all desire to see our inner life reflected in the art we see. When we find an artist that seems to "get us" we seek that artist's work out as if we've found the lost owner's manual for who we are, y'know? The trouble that an artist like me will get into is that much of the time the art I most want to see doesn't exist yet, because it's my job to create the damn thing! Why can't somebody just make my art for me, damn it?

I'm writing/illustrating a graphic novel right now when I have the time. The important details for this discussion are that the main character is psychic and has forgotten about experiments that were performed on him by a secret arm of the government when he was a very young child; experiments that triggered his psychic development; experiments that lead to a profoundly malevolent force being let loose upon the world. I've been working on the story, off and on for close to ten years all tolled, but since 9/11 the thing's really taken off--it's also been continually evolving to keep pace with the developing geo-political nightmare we see every night on the news. Anyway, you can see that these aspects of my story and several of Joss's themes overlap something considerable. I've been over and over this territory for years before this movie came out, even before Firefly. So, in a way, I was too ready for the reaver story to unfold. I saw Joss solving story issues with gambits I'd long discarded in developing my own similar story. I dared to hope that Joss would have given me pointers on how to resolve some problems I'm having with the narrative, but instead I saw him taking the easy way out time and time again.

The point I'm trying to make here is that my disappointment with the movie is intensely personal. It is very interesting that there is a considerable faction of us Browncoats who saw something like the same movie I saw. I do get the idea that fans of the Buffyverse tended to like the movie more than us folks who loved Firefly, but found Buffy tedious. Talking about the movie on this site has helped me to work out some of my own deepest convictions about art and being an artist in ways I certainly hadn't anticipated. The past three weeks have been rich with insights and discoveries about my novel, my own feelings about creativity, about Joss's methods and talent and even political discourse. I can live with that.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Here's a thing: I actually liked the third Matrix movie, if you can believe that. It didn't end the way any of us expected, but I found it very sad, sobering and satisfying.

That's so weird that you said that in the context of emotional autobigraphy...the reason I didn't like Matrix 3 was that it ended exactly like I saw it was going to. Halfway through I plotted where it was going, and thought, "Well, I've thought of that, it can't be going there..." I wanted what I couldn't think of, not what I could.
And Serenity gave me what I didn't expect.
Hm.
I have to watch Matrix: Revolutions again now...
...then have Jaynestown ready to cheer me up

Chrisisall, procrastinator regarding his own graphic novel...

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