Things You [i]Liked[/i] About Serenity: Questions Raised [Spoilers]... by zoid

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Things You [i]Liked[/i] About Serenity: Questions Raised [Spoilers]...

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Saturday, December 24, 2005 16:57
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Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:36 AM

Fellow Browncoats:

First, Merry Christmas! (And Hannukah, Kwanza, Holidays, et cetera...) Since I may or may not post again before the day -- and since I'm working a 10-hour shift on Christmas Day, starting at o'dark-thirty -- I offer my greetings in advance.

On topic, we've heard all manner of negatives regarding Serenity's story. "Why did Joss kill off Book and Wash?" being chief among them. But I found much to like about the movie as well. Now that we've all had a shot a deeper analysis, having watched the movie again at least 3 times since purchasing our DVDs (right?), I'd like to explore some questions and prognostications with you. Hopefully, y'all will get in the spirit and respond with some of your own...

Before we get to the 'good', though, let's take a brief glimpse at the 'bad', just one more time. Based on a Joss commentary, Wash's death may have had more to do with Tudyk wanting to avoid becoming a modern-day Sulu, than with Joss throwing the character onto the ash heap. JW said something along the lines that 'the actor was involved in a lot of other things' (i.e., to the point that getting forever identified as Wash was not something he was interested in). He further stated that killing off Wash was Tudyk's idea. If Joss was faced with not having 'the actor' for sequels in any case...

Ron Glass, on the other hand, was reported to be 'quite upset' that his character got killed. Ah, well.

So, enough of that already. Now for the intriguing bits.

Did anyone else notice how the interior lights go out when River realizes that Simon has been (presumably) mortally wounded? The rest of the crew look up and around in fear as the lights go out. Then River makes up her mind to act, to save the crew, and all the lights come back on, chasing just behind her as she sprints down the corridor. So the question in my mind is: Do River's psychic powers extend to telekinesis? Did her mind turn off those lights in her darkest despair, and then turn them back on as she became energized to do battle? Or was this just incredibly coincidental? (If so, why include the group shot of the embattled crew noticing that the lights had gone out?)

Another River moment I liked, although I don't necessarily assign it future importance: As the crew is fixing up Serenity after the final battle, River is lying supine, working on a wiring harness, and we can clearly see a tear-filled right eye. That is the one moment -- apart from the first time we see Serenity in the movie -- that really makes me cry. In my mind -- and I may be totally wrong -- she is grieving for the loss of Book and Wash. It's such a simple statement of grief, so briefly and casually done, that I find it more emotionally effective than the funeral scene.

I enjoyed seeing The Operative get his comeuppance, first by Mal defeating him, then finally by being forced to witness the ultimate evil that his 'ideal' society has wrought. ("What a whiner!") While I find it very doubtful that Mr. Ejiofor will return for sequels, I could definitely see him in them, as either a full-time crew replacement for Book, or more simply as someone to whom Mal could turn for official news and information, in the event of an actual emergency. Since he never had a name or rank, it might not be so easy to get this particular Operative out of the databanks, off of the payroll, or out of the Alliance's 'black ops' slush funds (think Lt. Col. (ret.) Oliver North, USMC, here). That would make him a valuable ally... But Chewitel is a hot property in movies right now, so he's highly unlikely as a returnee, in my estimation.

Which brings up another question: What is The Operative's sin? I'm gonna say, "Pride". It is often the case that people who consider themselves 'prideless' are -- in point of fact -- proud of their 'pridelessness'. Furthermore, he clearly considers himself undefeatable, and is complacent about it. He lets his guard down, as a result, and is defeated by Mal. (NB: I liked the bilateral shoulder-separator move by Mal.) So, I think The Operative's sin is the same one he accused others of.

On a side note: What do you think The Operative was going to say was Mal's sin, before Mal cut him off by admitting to all 7?

So there you have it. My opening shot across the bow. There's more, and I may bring those points up later, if the response warrants it. What do y'all think? What did you like about Serenity?

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I, for one, have heard -- and, yes, said -- enough of the negatives about the plot. There are other threads for those sentiments. This thread is exclusively for the positive aspects of the movie, if you please. Negatives will be steadfastly ignored by myself and the other rightful participants.
_________________________________________________

"Kaylee! Find that kid that's takin' a dirt nap with Baby Jesus. We need a hood ornament!" -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDOuttakes'

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:47 AM

SIHNON

From just the BDM, I have to say Wash's new favorite saying, "I'm a leaf in the wind, watch how I soar," is really, really, really pretty...

River's kick-assness is also rather tasty. The maid in distress can kick everyone's ass, but only when she feels like it. Fucking brilliant.

Near the end, when Inara and Mal are talking, and he asks her if she's ready to go back to her girls ("You fucked up!"), and she says, "Actually...I'm not sure..." Poignant. Just like them. It's about what they don't say.

Now, for the deleted scenes, I was extremely fond of Mal and Inara's little scene in the shuttle. When he goes in, and steadies himself against the door, trying to collect himself, and she says, "Mal?" I like he's there in the shuttle, Inara's shuttle, as it where...and then the conversation is really shiny. They both reach out. "Inara, why did you leave?" "Why didn't you ask me to?" Followed by, surprise surprise, hasty retreat.

All this shiny, shiny, shiny character development...::swoon::

Captain Reynolds never touched me, all he did was rent me a shuttle and be very, very annoying!

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:50 AM

SHOOTO

I thought maybe that's why Wash was killed...because maybe Tudyk is busy with other stuff and didn't want to be pigeon-holed as the character-

that being said, I think Zoe will be pregnant...that never got resolved and would make an interesting plot addition, imo-

It was great to see what River is capable of-

I can see the Op coming back...although Mal said he would kill him if he saw him again-

the rest was awesome as usual-

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:15 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Based on a Joss commentary, Wash's death may have had more to do with Tudyk wanting to avoid becoming a modern-day Sulu, than with Joss throwing the character onto the ash heap. JW said something along the lines that 'the actor was involved in a lot of other things' (i.e., to the point that getting forever identified as Wash was not something he was interested in). He further stated that killing off Wash was Tudyk's idea.

This is somewhat contradicted by what Alan said at the Flanvention (during the special luncheon, where I got a great chance to talk with him at length). In answer to a question about possible typecasting, he said that no, there was no problem about that from Firefly/Serenity. In fact, if there were any problem along those lines, it was because he's played a few "sensitive, gayish (or outright gay)" characters in plays; he's now getting offers for roles like that and is declining them.

While he did confirm that he suggested killing Wash "somewhere around season 2 or 3" to Joss back when they were just starting the series, I didn't get the feeling that he was particularly happy with getting killed off in Movie I. He didn't find out about it until he read the script. OTOH, he didn't seem as upset by it as Ron did. He even mentioned possible ways he could be brought back!

Quote:
Did anyone else notice how the interior lights go out when River realizes that Simon has been (presumably) mortally wounded? The rest of the crew look up and around in fear as the lights go out. Then River makes up her mind to act, to save the crew, and all the lights come back on, chasing just behind her as she sprints down the corridor. So the question in my mind is: Do River's psychic powers extend to telekinesis? Did her mind turn off those lights in her darkest despair, and then turn them back on as she became energized to do battle? Or was this just incredibly coincidental? (If so, why include the group shot of the embattled crew noticing that the lights had gone out?)

My feeling here is that, within the narrative of the movie, it's coincidental. It's something the Alliance forces did as they stormed the building. However, as you point out, from the *storytelling* perspective, it's anything but coincidence. It emphasizes the "turning point" nature of this scene -- that from the moment of greatest despair, River *chooses* to create the greatest hope.

Quote:
Which brings up another question: What is The Operative's sin? I'm gonna say, "Pride". It is often the case that people who consider themselves 'prideless' are -- in point of fact -- proud of their 'pridelessness'. Furthermore, he clearly considers himself undefeatable, and is complacent about it. He lets his guard down, as a result, and is defeated by Mal. (NB: I liked the bilateral shoulder-separator move by Mal.) So, I think The Operative's sin is the same one he accused others of.

Frankly, I don't think anyone but the Operative is going to spend much time worrying about what the Operative's sin is.

Quote:
On a side note: What do you think The Operative was going to say was Mal's sin, before Mal cut him off by admitting to all 7?

Um... Gluttony? Hmmm, probably not.

The Op does seem to see Pride in most of his opponents, as you point out. Maybe that's just his stock phrase, accusing everybody he kills of being prideful.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:34 AM

PURPLEPIRATE

I really like that Shepherd Book's last words were pointed directly at Mal's core, his 'moral rudder'. As a Christian minister and evangelist, Shepherd Book does want to Mal to come back to the faith that he once had, before the war (e.g., Mal reverencing the cross before battle; faith that God supported the Browncoat cause of independence, etc.)

But, knowing that he had only moments to live, Book wisely chooses to focus Mal on the path, not on the ultimate destination. I believe that Book intended first to re-instill Mal's belief in the distinction between right & wrong, so that he would pursue the right thing instead of just run. Running would lead to eventually getting caught, and everyone dying. But belief in right-ness could steer them to a solution, to victory.

So, instead of Shepherd Book's last words being something like a last-chance "Make a decision for Jesus" sermon that would have fallen on Mal's deaf ears, he put Mal on the right path.

I hate that Book died, but his death saved the rest of the crew (minus Wash, of course).

"I wasn't always a shepherd, Mal." -Shepherd Book

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:48 AM

CAUSAL

Before I get into this, let me just say: great thread, Zoid. Man, I don't see you around the boards as much as others, but I always perk up when I do.

So, without further ado...

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
What do you think The Operative was going to say was Mal's sin, before Mal cut him off by admitting to all 7?

I think the Operative would have said "wrath", not "pride".

Dr. Matthias' sin was pride because because of his utter confidence in his work. So confident of himself was he that he even brought "key members of parliament" in "observe the subject". His craving for recognition, for the "unanimous" approval for his project was such that he took unnecessary (and foolish) risks in the service of his pride. His pride in his own work led directly to the problem of how to cover up River's little secret.

Mal, on the other hand, does not strike me as the kind of man who is by nature prideful. Is he proud of his skill? Yes. Of his accomplishments? Yes. Of his service to the Independent cause? Yes. But none of this is the life-destroying pride of the type exhibited by Dr. Matthias--the type that eventually leads to overestimation of one's own abilities and the inevitible fall that so often occurs concurrently with that overestimation. Mal runs away and hides if needs be--not a mark of pride. He'll avoid the fair fight, stab a man when he's down, or allow another to get the glory--none of them marks of pride. Mal is a man who knows what he can and can't do, recognizes those limitations, and works within them.

I think that the Operative would have said that Mal's sin was "wrath" (if we're going with the Seven Deadlies, that is). Mal's anger toward the Alliance was never far away. You can see it in his determination in Serenity Valley, the simmering hatred when he sees IAV Dortmunder, the way he punches out Simon for suggesting he ought to work for them, his reluctance at the notion of taking Shepherd book for medical treatment--Mal's anger at the Alliance is never far away. I'd guess you could find some indication of it in just about every episode. And it is especially clear in the BDM. The way he responds to the Operative's glib assurance: "I know how you must feel about the Alliance." His anger at the fact that the Alliance made the Reavers--then covered it up. It's all over him. For my money, Mal's sin is wrath.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:54 AM

PURPLEPIRATE

I also liked the 'Seven Deadly Sins' references. They clearly pointed to the Operative's own pride, never seeing himself in his own doled-out condemnations.

Before Mal interrupted him, I think the Operative would have accused Mal of sloth. From the Operative's perspective, Mal has great potential within Alliance society, but he wastes his potential being a restless, nomadic rebel, serving only himself and his-own.

From Wikipedia:

* Sloth (also accidie, acedia) — Laziness; idleness and wastefulness of time allotted. Laziness is condemned because:

* Others have to work harder
* You are putting off what God wants you to do or not doing it at all
* It is disadvantageous for oneself, because useful work does not get done
* It, like gluttony, is a sin of waste, for it wastes time, implicitly because of pride

Sloth is a state of equilibrium: one does not produce much, but one does not need much either

"I believe in a power greater than man: a power that heals" -Shepherd Book

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 11:54 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:

Quote:
On a side note: What do you think The Operative was going to say was Mal's sin, before Mal cut him off by admitting to all 7?
Um... Gluttony?

MAL: Why? Is there blubber?

---

Serenity on DVD. 12/20/2005

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:33 PM

CHRISISALL

Well, I guess I could write a book about all the things I liked about Serenity, but the two strongest factors for me are the totally original and believable villain, and Nathan Fillion- nobody else could have played Mal like that.
Originally, I'd hoped Early would be the bad guy for the BDM, but the Operative was just fantastic!!! Complicated baddies are so much more compelling than pure Satan-types. The Operative and Mal were like two sides of the same emptyness, the operative being totally involved with his mission to the point where he didn't exist, and Mal being totally removed from any mission at all, save surviving (and in denying his feelings for Inara, he too [his feelings at any rate] really didn't exist).

I could see in a sequel where they might become friends in some strange sort of way...

Except the Op's such a whiner...

Chrisisall, a leaf

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:00 PM

PSOLARIS

Something caught my attention the other night as a friend and I were viewing the movie...again. I even commented on it as the scene took place.

The scene towards the end when Mal and the crew were coming out of the clouds that surrounded Miranda, they're heading straight towards the Alliance ships. The Operative is busy telling his crew to lock on weapons, Serenity comes out of the clouds, then he says with a smirk on his face, "The bastard's not even changing course." Right at that moment, I turned to my friend and said, "You know what you're sin is...it's pride." He was very proudful of his 'catch' so to speak. And as the old adage goes...those that point the finger first, is the most guilty.

As to the telekenesis...I think that's a very good theory. Who knows what River is fully capable of, we still haven't seen all of it. Hopefully one day we will.

And I too had a feeling that Alan had a play in his fate. He's racking up quite a resume in Hollywood, doing other things now and such. Killing off his character gives him the chance to pursue his movie career. Even the occassional flashback that Joss might use if the series flies again will still allow Alan to do this.

Psolaris

"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'"

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:36 PM

HOGWAFFLE

I personally love that Book doesn't tell us his past. I think it adds an amazing touch of reality. Where you do not learn everything sometimes.

What simon says to put river to sleep....anyone know what it means cause its been driving me crazy wanting to know!

I love the scene with river and simon where he talks to her about miranda, and she says "I never know what I'm saying" that whole scene is fantastic to me. Her performance cuts to my soul.

And the end when river and Mal talk. The line where he sayd "love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down" I cry every time! Because I feel like the was joss's line to the fans. That he is talking about serenity the movie as much as he is talking about the ship.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:41 PM

PSOLARIS

Quote:
Originally posted by hogwaffle:
And the end when river and Mal talk. The line where he sayd "love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down" I cry every time! Because I feel like the was joss's line to the fans. That he is talking about serenity the movie as much as he is talking about the ship.

Ohhhhh...nice!!! I like your thinking. I didn't think of that!

Psolaris

"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'"

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:49 PM

AAHHAAA

couple comments...

I liked that in Serenity, Joss has now extracted what he needs from Westerns, but didn't make it 'Western'. I think there were two simple messages, one Zoe's line 'heroes get people killed'. Think mebbe Mal will have to deal with that. The other was something like 'we don't want to be perfected to fit your system'. The vision has evolved since Firefly, tho I really liked the more personal stories like Trash & Jaynestown- hope there's always room for that kind of storytelling.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:27 PM

SHINYGEEKET

Original post:
What simon says to put river to sleep....anyone know what it means cause its been driving me crazy wanting to know!

It actually means "That's for the chickens to laugh at" in Russian

As for what I liked in Serenity, well I loved everything about it but just to state a few things:

I loved seeing River fight, and I could totally buy the telekinesis thing. I hadn't really thought about it until it was mentioned in this thread, but I could see how that would work.

I really love the scene with Simon and River, right after Simon is shot. The emotion is so heartbreaking. I love this scene even more after hearing Joss talk about how upset Summer was filming it in the commentary. The cast gets so into to it, it's like they're not even acting.

I love the opening scene on Serenity, where you get to see the ship and the crew again. It gives me warm and fuzzies everytime.

Absolutly love Mal and River on the bridge at the end. His speach about love makes me cry everytime. That and the fact that they left Wash's dinosaurs on the consol.

"We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... 'This Land'."

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:59 PM

ETHAN

I like the litte mental construct Mal has come up with in order to understand his feelings and relationship with River. There was no coincidance when the Operative mentioned the myth of the "albatross" and Mal being up on the poetic origins (try not to faint

). I like to think he spends considerable time off screen privately contemplating her situation. He readily adopts the nickname for River in the bridge scene at the end. I always thought Mal hid a special sensitivity for River. Their histories are similar with regards to himself being brought up by many "ranch hands." River's ranch hands are the crew of Serenity.

I also like the River telekinises idea with the lights.

I think the Operative's sin is Gluttony. No he doesn't get freaky with the bon bons, but his gluttony is with his belief. His too powerful need to believe what he is doing is the right thing, disables his perspective. His moral balance is thrown off, and becomes downright indulgent. His lack of temperance is the definition of gluttony.

Nice thread.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:12 PM

MYFIREFLY

I loved a lot of things about the movie, but one thing that really stands out for me was some of the shots of Serenity.

The opening scene of Serenity entering atmo, Serenity without power in a flat spin with the Reavers following, the barrel-roll as She leaves atmo at the end...

There was some beautiful attention to detail in those special effects and some really magnificant photography of our favorite boat.

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Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:48 PM

ZOID

myFirefly wrote, in part:

Quote:
...The opening scene of Serenity entering atmo...

You know, I saw the movie in the theatre 4 times, alone and with family. Since purchasing the DVD on the 20th, I've seen it 3 more times. Right now, it's paused in the player in the middle of a second viewing with JW's commentary track (that'll be viewing #4 when completed).

Every time I've seen the film, that moment gives me gooseflesh. And a tear in my eye. And a lump the size of a Yugo in my throat. She's just so f*cking beautiful! I apologize for the language; but, there just isn't any other way of putting it, honestly.

The thought has actually entered my head a couple of times while watching her fade in from the title: "I love that ship!" And when she starts the retro-burn my heart swells to bursting with adoration/admiration/pride/longing...

Does that seem right to you?

Obsessive/Compulsively,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Love... Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down... Makes her home." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, December 23, 2005 6:49 PM

HOGWAFFLE

Is that really what it means? Cause with joss I wouldn't be surprised! And yes the dinosaurs I forgot about that part!!!

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Friday, December 23, 2005 7:42 PM

USMC

I like that part too when the ship enters atmo. Kickass way to follow a teaser intro. Once the music comes in during decent into the planet, I got teary eyed. My favorite part is when River is talking to her brother, right after he gets shot, she stands, says "My turn" then runs down the hallway, jumps through blast door.....well, from there my throat is lumpy and I black out, have not got past that part yet.

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Friday, December 23, 2005 7:52 PM

SHINYGEEKET

I googled the phrase and that's what I found. Isn't that so Joss?

"We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... 'This Land'."

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:41 AM

WHISPERING

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyGeeket:
It actually means "That's for the chickens to laugh at" in Russian

It sounds nothing like Russian, i'm pretty sure its Latin. Check that part with English subtitles (It should say what language it is), cant check myself as i'm not at home.

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:30 AM

JERRYT

One of the scenes I really like is at the end when they are fixing up Serenity. You see Kaylee and a shirtless Simon (calm down ladies) start to make out and move out of the shot. Then from a hatch above you see Rivers face look out and watch them.

I always wonder just how much of an eyeful she gets.

JerryT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'll be in my bunk"

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 3:31 PM

ZOID

whispering wrote:

Quote:
It sounds nothing like Russian, i'm pretty sure its Latin...

It's colloquial Russian, alright. Specifically, Simon says, "Это курам на смех", an old Russian saying that literally translated means "It is to hens on laughter". Hence, "That's for chickens to laugh at" or "That is sublimely absurd."

But don't feel bad for thinking it was Latin. Russian is highly infused with Old Church Slavonic brought north by Greek Orthodox (Eastern Catholic) missionaries from the Byzantine Empire. Although most of OCS was Greek, there was more than a bit of Roman-tic influence as well...

St. Cyril-lically,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Well... Now I know that." -Jayne Cobb, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:57 PM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Fellow Browncoats:

What do y'all think? What did you like about Serenity?

Uh...everything!

Seriously, after seeing the movie about 6 times now, I don't have one complaint. In fact I seem to love it more and more each time I see the film.

---------------------------------------

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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