GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Suspension of Disbelief

POSTED BY: RITAK7
UPDATED: Friday, January 20, 2006 02:03
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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:10 PM

RITAK7


Please no one get mad i am just curious. You know the bit when they paint Serenity with blood and hang the corpses all over it, well wouldn't the intense heat of the atmosphere incinerate the bones and the blood? i really don't have a sophisticated scientific mind example in high school i became convinced after an elementary biology class that there was no way all seven children could be right handed and straight so i started writing horribly wiht my left hand-i couldn't be anymore right handed and just figure my catholic upbringing surpressed and sublimated my sexuality so that's what i got from science classes and from a trip to cape canveral as a child i am fairly certain thatthe atmosphere is intensely hot so wouldn't it be hot enough to destroy reaver artwork? feel free to laugh at or with me but dont' be upset that i question his holiness Joss Whedon


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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:13 PM

CHRISISALL


I don't believe this thread.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:18 PM

RITAK7


Umm..why?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:18 PM

GROUNDED


I don't believe Chrisisall doesn't believe this thread.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:18 PM

CHRISISALL


Sorry, had to suspend my disbelief.

The red is thermal paint (common for use on all ships), not blood, and the bodies burned up to the bone, but not beyond in controlled (ie, slower) exit or re-entry. 200 or 300 meters per/sec more, and the bone would go too.

Are ya satisfied?

Chrisisall, wankin' away

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:20 PM

HOBANWASHBURN


well, first, try a little more punctuation there. But the heat from leaving atmo burned the flesh and muscle off the bones and they painted the ship with red paint, not blood. And the burn through atmo doesn't harm the paint.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM

RITAK7


oh 'kay i thought Mal instructed the crew to smear Serenity with the victims of the Alliance massacre blood thank you for the clear up about the bone bit-but if just the flesh burned up when exiting the atmosphere the bone wouldn't go too after either entering or exiting Miranda's atmosphere?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:24 PM

GROUNDED


Are you asking 'would the bones burn in real life?' or are you asking for a fanwank like the one CIA has put forward?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:27 PM

RITAK7


well i am an iconoclast i don't need no stinkin punctuation i am saving ;:.,for the huge thesis i am slaving over
i could have sworn Mal told them to smear the ship with blood i don't get how red paint would make the reavers think "whoo doggie there's one of our own"

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:29 PM

RITAK7


asking if it would happen in real life but here's another query what's a fanwank?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:30 PM

GROUNDED


Mal actually says something like

"We're going to need red paint. Lots of red paint."

as they're gearing up to modify the ship.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:31 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by ritak7:
asking if it would happen in real life but here's another query what's a fanwank?



In real life I imagine the bones would burn up with the rest of the body.

Fanwank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanwank

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:31 PM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by ritak7:
i don't get how red paint would make the reavers think "whoo doggie there's one of our own"



*Reaver ripping one of his lips off... pauses*

Reaver: Hey, is that red paint?

U Gonna Be Smart Here Riva!?!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:34 PM

PRINCESSROHANNEN


Surely they'd be able to enter the atmosphere slowly enough to keep the bones intact if they wanted to. We're not talking about the technology of the 70's (when astronauts basically hurled themselves into the atmosphere inside a big rock with heat shields and hoped like heck they'd gotten all the calculations right). It isn't the atmosphere itself that's hot, it's the friction with the atmosphere caused by the velocity of the vehicle.

Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:34 PM

CHRISISALL


Yo Ritak, are YOU an expert in astrophysics, atmo entry and re-entry, or atmo density/solid object friction ratios?
Me neither, but I almost sounded smart there, for a second, huh?

The bones didn't burn 'cause it looked real weird seein' them on Serenity, and 'cause Joss said so.

Wank not mandatory Chrisisall

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:34 PM

KT


If I recall Mal's exact words were...

"Paint...we're goin' to need red paint" right before everyone realized what he was about to do.

Can't speak to burning bones thru atmo though...
don't really want to think about it either -

"I'll see your "ick" and raise you a "naa-ghaghhh" from Buffy in that other Whedon verse....

---------
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart."

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:38 PM

RITAK7


thank you laddies especially for the new word i certainly hope i am not a 'fanwanker' i was just curious about the blood bit thanks for elucidating that for me

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:39 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:


Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

Generational ships, my dear. Again, Joss said so.
You can go anywhere if you got the time...

Chrisisall, who prefers sleeper ships hisself

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:41 PM

RITAK7


Chrisisall
i was totally digging it dude i thought you perhaps were a NASA employee a higher up with several PH.d's dontcha know what PH.D stands for Piled High and Deep

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Monday, January 16, 2006 2:51 PM

HOBANWASHBURN


Quote:

Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

Personally, I have a feeling that these folk were on massive ships taking them to the planets. And it burned hard enough and had enough fuel to get there in a reasonable amount of time. Probably took months. Like the ships that sailed to America. It took a LONG time to get from the European land to the new world. That's my theory anywho. And really, the only ship we fully see the capabilities of is Serenity and it's pretty obvious that the Firefly is pretty obsolete at that point. So there's no telling what the Alliance had up their sleeves.

Some people juggle geese!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:00 PM

CHRISISALL


I posess the title of PH.Duh

So nobody else noticed the two Hands Of Blue boy's cameo in the beginning of Serenity??

Chrisisall, also PH.D'oh!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:02 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


This question is kind of macabre ...

Anyway, Google tells me that the bottom of a Space Shuttle is heatet up to between 1600°C to 1700°C.

Crematories are burning Corpses, using a temperature of 700°C to 900°C (the Bones need a little more "Power").

So, either the Ships in Serenity/Firefly aren´t taking this much friction Heat, or their Bones are reinforced in some Way - Or it´s Grandmaster Whedon´s will ;)



"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:14 PM

RITAK7


Crochetdragon you are cool!
thanks for that bit of research i wish i could use Google that well
i can say several warm phrases (as well as a few chilly ones) in German but won't even attempt to spell them
i know it is a macabre subject but here's something evern more dark gross and disturbing-i think of it now that you brought up the crematories-out in Western Massachusetts a pound creamates the animals it puts down and taps that heat to heat the pound itself i mean bravo efficiency wise but eww poor puppies

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:15 PM

PRINCESSROHANNEN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:


Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

Generational ships, my dear. Again, Joss said so.
You can go anywhere if you got the time...

Chrisisall, who prefers sleeper ships hisself



Those poor generations!

Say these generational transports could cover 1 astronomical unit in a day (that's the distance from the sun to the Earth). That seems to be pretty close to the speeds that Serenity is capable of.

Proxima Centauri, the nearest star to Earth (aside from Sol), is 4.28 light-years away. That's roughly 270,667 astronomical units, or around 25,160,072,930,000 miles.

At the rate of 1 astronomical unit per day, it would take a ship 742 years to reach the nearest star from Earth. Assuming an average lifespan of 70 years, that's nearly eleven generations, not counting overlap.

And that's assuming that Proxima Centauri is the system Serenity flies around in. The other stars are even further out.

I suppose that desperate sort of journey is possible, given dire enough circumstances. It just doesn't seem very likely. After all, if your ships are technologically advanced enough to sustain that many generations, why go to all the trouble and risk of terraforming planets? Why not just build great big space stations right here in our own Solar system?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:16 PM

SAMEERTIA


First off, RITAK7, you're likely to get a far better response if you use proper capitalization and punctuation. Your post is just to hard to read as it is.

Second, what most everyone else has said is correct. When I rewatched Serenity last weekend with Manitou, who's degree IS in astrophysics, he said that the heat of passing through atmosphere is mostly due to the speed at which we have to do it today.
Presumeably, by the time Serenity is set in, they have better control over exit and re-entry.

The point that he made, being a very valid one, is that the skeletons wouldn't hold together unless you coated them with something. The cartilege that joints are made up of would have decayed when the flesh burned away.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:25 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


Quote:

out in Western Massachusetts a pound creamates the animals it puts down and taps that heat to heat the pound itself i mean bravo efficiency wise but eww poor puppies


What would you do if I´d tell you, that most of the Crematories use the Heat produced during the "disposal" of the bodys is used to warm up the holding area of the Building? ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:29 PM

RITAK7


Haekeldache i'd say dude...whoa

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:30 PM

PRINCESSROHANNEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Haekeldrache:
Quote:

out in Western Massachusetts a pound creamates the animals it puts down and taps that heat to heat the pound itself i mean bravo efficiency wise but eww poor puppies


What would you do if I´d tell you, that most of the Crematories use the Heat produced during the "disposal" of the bodys is used to warm up the holding area of the Building? ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon



Well, recycling is eco-friendly.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:31 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


I don't know anything about astrophysics, but I'm better on etymology, so to answer your other question:
"fanwank" has two quite separate meanings. One of them is an angry dispute among fans, but the one mentioned in this thread is "an explanation devised by fans to harmonize an apparent contradiction in the source text." For example, what we see in the beginning of the movie vs. what Simon said in the pilot about River's rescue.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:32 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


RITAK7: Thought so ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:36 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


The answer to your question about reentry is yes, the bones and maybe even some of the paint would have ablated away. I don’t believe there is any way to avoid this. You cannot slowly leave the earth and certainly can’t slowly reenter. My guess is that around several hundred miles an hour those bodies would have disintegrated and that is probably single digit percentages of the velocity you would need to escape gravity.

As for your other problems, I cannot help you.




Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:39 PM

RITAK7


True that PrincessRohannen.
The thesis i am reserving my punctuation for (though i still claim the title of iconoclast down with the sanctimonious grammophiles) is on the use of biodisel produced from crops: food crops from which oil can be expelled, non edible crops which can be grown on marginal land, from restaurant waste but-here's the icky bit-rendered animal fat. If tallow was good enough for candles and soap it's good enough for fuel. And yes once upon a time people used lard, which is a very good surfactant and emulsifier, to wash up with. Not too zestfully clean, n'est-ce pas?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:54 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


Quote:

You cannot slowly leave the earth and certainly can’t slowly reenter.


I´ve been thinking about this problem too...

Well. Maybe you are able to leave atmo without advancing to "burning" speed... but i´m not sure about this.

A Rocket-Engine at the Earth-Atmo is using its recoil to get speed and leave the Orbit. But Recoil can only be produced, if there is something to "push away from", like air. When leaving the Orbit, you are also leavin the Air... and your capability to advance forward.

A Rocket in Space gets Speed by losing Mass. Don´t ask me how exactly it works, but someone told me it would even work if a man at the back of the Ship will throw Crap off of the Shuttle.

So... while you are leaving atmo and entering Space, can you generate enough "Matter-loss" to keep your Piece of Metal from falling down to earth again? I´m not sure, but they MAY have to catapult themselves out of the Earth-Orbit to evade this effect.

Don´t Quote me, im not a Pro ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:58 PM

RITAK7


Finn Mac Cumhal a quick question regarding your quote what does it mean? It takes quite a man to speak the unspoken language of Latin. Unfortunately i only speak those poor living languages of Spanish, French and of course English so i have ever so roughly translated your quote as Qui He or whom, desiderat desires. peace pacem, prepares praeparet, for war bellum. War is guerra or guerre in F or Sp respectively but i can infer from the context clues as well as words like bellicose and belligirent that bellum is probably war. Is that it? If it is then yay for me, if not well gosh durn it i sure did try.
Qui

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:10 PM

IWASAFRYCOOK


On the topic of traveling between planets, to quote the Official Visual Companion to Serenity, "Every person willing and able to leave Earth migrated to the new system. An entire generation never even saw the outside of a spaceship, the journey took so long."

And when you think about it, you wouldn't really need that much space for fuel, just a course adjustment every couple of months when you're getting a little too friendly with the neighboring asteroids. The rest of the space would probably be filled with people and renewable resources. Very efficient renewable resources.

On a seperate note: maybe in a couple of thousands of FF 'verse years, we'll get Battlestar Galactica: A Different Group of People.

And if you have the Visual Companion, the chinese on the back says, and I quote a chinese friend of mine, "If you don't buy this book, your friends will call you a stupid inborn pile of meat." She then looked at me weirdly and I began her conversion. I'm done typing now.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:11 PM

CITIZEN


In a crematorium operating at 1150°C(2100°F) the bones still need to be crushed and ground because they won't break down into ash even at that heat. The maximum temperatures experienced by the Space Shuttle are less than 1480°C(2700°F). It's possible that bones wouldn't be destroyed by re-entry (which is 'hotter' than exit).

If you enter the atmosphere at a lower velocity, and slow down more gradually with a smaller profile to the atmosphere the heating will be dramatically reduced. We can't do this today because all the fuel a space craft can carry is used to get it in to space, there's none left for breaking manoeuvres.

Though the tendons that hold the skeleton together would be burnt away, to that I say artistic license.

As for how they got there you’ve got to remember there’s quite pronounced time-dilation at relativistic speeds. You travel at close enough to the speed of light and you can travel millions of light years in a few weeks of subjective time.


Author of the second "There's nothing wrong with the science of FireFly Dumbarse" thread.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:15 PM

RITAK7


hey there iwasafrycook, by the way iworkedthedrivethru
So like soylent green renewable resource?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:16 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Haekeldrache:
A Rocket in Space gets Speed by losing Mass. Don´t ask me how exactly it works, but someone told me it would even work if a man at the back of the Ship will throw Crap off of the Shuttle.

Newton’s Third Law. The escaping exhaust in the rocket imparts an acceleration to the rocket in the opposite direction.




Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:16 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Haekeldrache
A Rocket in Space gets Speed by losing Mass. Don´t ask me how exactly it works, but someone told me it would even work if a man at the back of the Ship will throw Crap off of the Shuttle.


Newtons Third Law of motion:
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. As the exhaust from the rocket leaves the craft it pushes on the inside of the rocket 'bell' thus pushing the craft in the opposite direction of the exhaust gas.

It's not moving by losing mass, but ejecting mass is the only way we can currently produce foward push.

Edit:
Hi Finn, great minds huh



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:18 PM

N7XEJ


It means "Who would have peace must prepare for war". Cato the Elder, if memory serves.

Scis hoc legere, nimium eruditiones habes.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:24 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


@FINN MAC CUMHAL & Citizen:

Thx for that

@Citizen: We seem to have different Numbers... I think that is the danger of googling around ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:27 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ritak7:
Finn Mac Cumhal a quick question regarding your quote what does it mean? It takes quite a man to speak the unspoken language of Latin. Unfortunately i only speak those poor living languages of Spanish, French and of course English so i have ever so roughly translated your quote as Qui He or whom, desiderat desires. peace pacem, prepares praeparet, for war bellum. War is guerra or guerre in F or Sp respectively but i can infer from the context clues as well as words like bellicose and belligirent that bellum is probably war. Is that it? If it is then yay for me, if not well gosh durn it i sure did try.
Qui

That’s pretty much it.

It’s a fourth century quote from a Roman military treatise, called De Rei Militari III. The author is a man named Flavius Vegetius, a late Roman military strategist.




Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:44 PM

RITAK7


Thank you it is gratifying to be correct for once.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:02 PM

RITAK7


okay now your lil' bit of latin is completely beyond me
i got hoc this, legere, if it is at all like the frech, light, nimium excessive, eruditiones eruditions,habes you have or you will have or you must have
put it all together and i'm not caffienated enough to have a clue. so help a firefly lovin' sister out

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:11 PM

SHINY


Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:45 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ritak7:
okay now your lil' bit of latin is completely beyond me
i got hoc this, legere, if it is at all like the frech, light, nimium excessive, eruditiones eruditions,habes you have or you will have or you must have
put it all together and i'm not caffienated enough to have a clue. so help a firefly lovin' sister out

He’s being cute. Legere means "to read" in this context.





Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:53 PM

RITAK7


Thank you again Finn.
Shiny I made the mistake of opening a bag of scrumptious Newman's Own Organic Spelt Pretzels, yum yum, before reading your post. I laughed so hard with a full mouth and well you know. Now i must go clean and pray at the altar of the computer gods in supplication so that the screen may come clean.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:06 PM

RITAK7


oh i think i get it if you read this you will learn alot

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:52 PM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
If you enter the atmosphere at a lower velocity, and slow down more gradually with a smaller profile to the atmosphere the heating will be dramatically reduced. We can't do this today because all the fuel a space craft can carry is used to get it in to space, there's none left for breaking manoeuvres.


Breaking manoeuvres such as we see when Serenity breaks atmo in the title sequence...

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!


Am I crazy, though, or do I remember seeing the skeletons actually bolted to the ship with metal brackets? 'Course, that still wouldn't explain the tendons...


Semper ubi sub ubi.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:01 PM

RITAK7


so maybe Simon hauls the bodies with the rope and then the cadavers are bolted on and then perhaps use some advanced fricition resistant or defritifying.....
okay it is like two in the morning and now i am going to try and go to sleep sheesh let the nightmares begin.

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