GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Suspension of Disbelief

POSTED BY: RITAK7
UPDATED: Friday, January 20, 2006 02:03
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Monday, January 16, 2006 10:49 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by nosadseven:
Breaking manoeuvres such as we see when Serenity breaks atmo in the title sequence...


That would be the ones. Those two big thrusters kicking off like that would lose Serenity a lot of momentum.



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The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 10:57 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Haekeldrache:
@Citizen: We seem to have different Numbers... I think that is the danger of googling around ;)


Crematoriums operate at different temperatures depending on who manufactured the equipment, how long it's been operating etc. That was an upper limit; yours are probably right for a certain type of machine(s) I imagine. The numbers for the shuttle re-entry heat is based around the heat tolerances of the thermal tiles. You can workout precisely what the temperatures are, but there isn't much point .



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The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:06 AM

RUSSELL


i think that the heat from entering and exiting the atmosphere is caused by friction and high speed.

for an object to reach and maintain orbit around the earth it has to be traveling at 18,000 miles an hour (consider that it falls around the earth).

when an object traveling 18,000+ miles an hour, out in the vacuum of space, hits the dense atmosphere the friction causes intense heat.

at least i think thats how it works. so if they just went slowly ;) it wouldnt be so bad.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:28 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Thank you Citizen and NS7:

I hope we are not still using shuttle re-entry tactics 500 hundred years in the future.

How bout this? How did the hover Mule work?



U gonna be smart here Riva?!?!

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:34 AM

REAVERMEAT


Maybe the reavers are constantly replacing the bodies on the ships and doing it in space?

Even though they are feral they still know how to operate starships. So, I think they can manage to realize the benefits of the space suits when attaching the desecrated corpses of people in space.


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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:50 AM

JAYRO


Quote:

Originally posted by pdcharles:
Thank you Citizen and NS7:

I hope we are not still using shuttle re-entry tactics 500 hundred years in the future.

How bout this? How did the hover Mule work?



U gonna be smart here Riva?!?!



I would've thought that the hover mule works using either an air cushion, like a regular hovercraft, or some kind of directable jets.

Come to that, how come nobody's floating about when Serenity's in space? By what means is the artificial gravity generated? Not trying to turn this into a trivia thread, but it's something that's been bugging me for a bit. Help an old man out!

---------------------------


"I imagine that if it were fear, my eyes would be wider."

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:52 AM

KENT


Quote:

Originally posted by russell:
i think that the heat from entering and exiting the atmosphere is caused by friction and high speed.



That it is caused by friction is a common misconception. Well... certainly part of it will come from friction, but it's negligable when compared to the heat generated when the air in front of the vessel compresses.
It's heat generated from compression, not friction.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:56 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!


You want to see how different perceptions can be?

Never even occured to me to think that was real rope. In the sense we mean today at least. I suppose anything with wound fibers is rope, perhaps the defintion is even looser than that. I mean climber's rope is hardly the stuff I see at a shipyard and they're both called rope.

I just figured, ya know, people say things and don't mean them. Some people say I tie my dog out, but I don't, nor do I chain her, I clip the dog to a metal wire covered in a plastic sheath. Very few people say, "Clip the dog out," not do a lot of people call it a metal wire in a plastic cover, a lot of people call it a chain, but it isn't.

So Mal says, "Rope them together," and throws Simon something that is gray and coiled. I can honestly say it didn't occur to me to consider it was spun hemp. If it weren't for the fact it was going on the outside of a space ship that's exactly what I would assume.

It's like the word reptile I guess, when someone says, "He bought a reptile," you think an iguana gecko or anole. When someone says, "He bought a reptile bus," you think a segmented bus with joints that allow it to turn corners. (Also known as a snake bus.)

If he had said to rope something up inside Serenity I'd assume it was normal rope, unless I had a reason to think non-normal stuff was cheaper. But since he said outside hemp didn't cross my mind.

-

By the way, the bodies are indeed bolted on. Roped as well.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:30 AM

SHINY


Yeah, I guess different people perceive or react to things differently; that bit with the corpses and rope, and the fact that getting shot in the back with a laser/stun gun barely fazes Mal were such a stretch that they almost took me out of the movie.

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:40 AM

IMALEAF


Really in theory it could be hot enough to cause the paint to fuse with the metal. But hey Sci-fi really, they all have their faults. Going from planet to planet in a couple days. It would take us two years to get to Mars. Good question though. But I don't know

~~River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logics. Doesn't make sense.~~

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:45 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


According to the novelisation of the movie, the red paint was never meant to be blood. It's mentioned that Reavers paint theit ships with red paint. The patterns are very unusual. Some are distorted Chinese characters, and others are supposed to be similar to the warpaint patterns used by ancient Native American tribes on Earth-that-was.


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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:29 AM

HAEKELDRACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by pdcharles:
How bout this? How did the hover Mule work?



I think it could maybe use some kind of Anti-Gravity Technologie. Most of the Ships in Serenity/Firefly aren´t big enough to Produce their own gravitiy (well. it might need the mass of a Death-Star here...), so there musst be some kind of artificial Gravitiy (Spacestations and rotating ships excluded, due to their rotation they can use the centrifugal force to "throw the People outside" which works approximately like Gravity.)

So there might be some kind of Anti-Grav-Tech which keeps the Mule in the Air.

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:49 AM

QUEENOFTHENORTH


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!



Well, it is OBVIOUSLY special thermal rope designed to tie one's excess luggage to the top of one's spaceship. You know, a few suitcases, a few gross, corpsified people, a bike or two, what have you.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:52 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kent:
That it is caused by friction is a common misconception. Well... certainly part of it will come from friction, but it's negligable when compared to the heat generated when the air in front of the vessel compresses.
It's heat generated from compression, not friction.


Erm, no the compression of the Air particles causes friction in the air. The Heat comes entirely from friction, and in fact most of the heat during re-entry comes from the friction with the air hitting the craft, as at high altitudes the pressure is too low for air compression to make that much of an impact.

That is in fact one of the reasons why the temperatures experienced by a craft during re-entry are higher than those during exit, because during exit a lot of the heating happens away from the skin of the spacecraft.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:57 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally wroted by Jayro:
I would've thought that the hover mule works using either an air cushion, like a regular hovercraft, or some kind of directable jets.

Come to that, how come nobody's floating about when Serenity's in space? By what means is the artificial gravity generated? Not trying to turn this into a trivia thread, but it's something that's been bugging me for a bit. Help an old man out!


It looks more like a Anti-Gravity, which is likely since we know they have Gravity generators, thus they just need to set up a Gravity field with a reversed Up-Down axis.

For a theory of FireFly Gravity Tech, go here:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=16026#224033



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:08 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ritak7:
The thesis i am reserving my punctuation for (though i still claim the title of iconoclast down with the sanctimonious grammophiles)
*snip*



Using poor grammar and eschewing punctuation do not make you look like an avant iconoclast. They make you look like a poorly educated, inbred sack of meat, thesis notwithstanding.

In addition, foregoing grammar and punctuation rules is just plain inconsiderate of anyone who reads your post; it might make sense as you write it, but anyone else is going to have to interpret, which is a bloody pain in the ass. Punctuation and grammar exist to help you communicate effectively using the written word. They are not some oppressive rule system against which to rebel. Doing so only makes you look like you don't care about what you're saying and don't care about anyone who might read it.

Iconoclast indeed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:
"Sanctimonious: affecting piousness : hypocritically devout." That would be a good insult to level at someone whose writing is as atrocious as yours. But most of the folks appealing for clarity are themselves using proper grammar and punctuation. Hence the term "sanctimonious" does not apply. If you're going to insult someone, do it correctly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:
As far as the sanctimonious thing goes, note that most folk are appealing for punctuation and grammar not because they want to change you, but because they can't bloody understand you!
________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:45 PM

N7XEJ


It means "if you can read this, you're over educated".

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:00 PM

RUSSELL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kent:
Quote:

Originally posted by russell:
i think that the heat from entering and exiting the atmosphere is caused by friction and high speed.



That it is caused by friction is a common misconception. Well... certainly part of it will come from friction, but it's negligable when compared to the heat generated when the air in front of the vessel compresses.
It's heat generated from compression, not friction.



i never thought about that but it makes perfect sense. the heat caused by the compression is basically heat caused by friction between the molecules no? not the friction from the molecules hitting the object but friction from molecules hitting each other because they are displaced by the object. good info

i dont mean to try and sound like a scientist or something. im actually just a construction worker ;)

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:38 PM

RITAK7


That is cute;)
Can you tell I am striving for my Ph.D because i really was trying to understand it.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:50 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

ritak7 of FIREFLYFANS.NET has sent you the following message:

-------------------------

Poor baby you went through all the trouble of looking up sanctimonious and you still didn't understand what it means. Perhaps i should have used italics to denote whimsy. I'm irreverrent and frankly more than a bit indolent hence the sloppy prose. I did not even consider that i was being inconsiderate but now that i have been admonished i shall endeavah to do bettah as we'd say in the Bostonian vernaculah.



So, the part I'm not quite getting is why you'd take the time to insult me in private. As long as you're going to insult one of the people who are getting on your case about your disregard for others on the board, why not just come right out and do it in public? If I'm a "baby" who can't even understand a dictionary, why not expose my stupidity for all to see? If you want to engage in trollish behavior, have the courage to be public about it. Flaunting your lack of regard for proper English then turning around and using "big" words like "indolent" does not impress, nor does the Ph.D candidacy. Why not just treat everyone on the board with a little respect? It will go much further in terms of the way people on the board perceive you.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:14 PM

RITAK7


Yowsers a bit sensitive, are ya?
Oh if only i could change the font to give these words the inflection i aiming for.
It was meant to be a gentle ribbing not an insult. The others who critiqued my grammar/punctuation (or more appropriately, lack there of) didn't seem to be as hostile as you yourself were. The other posters who scolded me
seemed a little more easy going while you upbraided me rather vehemently. It was as if they saw my sin as venial while you deemed it mortal. So in jest, tinged with peevishness (peevish is a word peevishness probably not), i started out with poor baby
Big words like indolent c'mon now i was being self-deprecating. I understand now that it may be difficult to get through my original post but try again and you shall see I am so about mocking myself.


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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:41 PM

CORUM


Nice to see lots of firefly fans, but I think I have more experience at modelling a story in my head, so here goes:

Serenity is not a ship designed to ram the atmophere like our space shuttle does. Its not aerodynamic, it has huge engines that can thrust at 1g (for lift off) and it lands vertically. It could easily enter an atmosphere as slowly as it pleased.

The friction from the shuttle re-entering isn't caused simply from falling from space. Its caused by the fact that the shuttle had to accelerate to 18,000mph to enter orbit. Aside from its altitude, the heat is produced by having a 300 tonne vehicle hitting a wall of atmosphere and having to dump that 18,000mph of momentum. Someone do that math: 18000mph x 300 tonnes = a lot of energy. Thats without a change in altitude.

That energy doesn't get put into the momentum during launch; only as the atmophere thins a lot does the shuttle go sideways and speed up to 18000mph. It doesnt do that in the thick atmosphere and it doesnt leave a fiery trail or lose radio contact on the way UP.

If you need further rationale, there were lots more dead bodies available on the reaver planet, which is the only time they came down thru atmosphere before they snuck thru the reaver fleet the second time.

Now, how about the blueprints for Serenity I was looking for?

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:47 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by ritak7:
Yowsers a bit sensitive, are ya?
Oh if only i could change the font to give these words the inflection i aiming for.
It was meant to be a gentle ribbing not an insult. The others who critiqued my grammar/punctuation (or more appropriately, lack there of) didn't seem to be as hostile as you yourself were. The other posters who scolded me
seemed a little more easy going while you upbraided me rather vehemently. It was as if they saw my sin as venial while you deemed it mortal. So in jest, tinged with peevishness (peevish is a word peevishness probably not), i started out with poor baby
Big words like indolent c'mon now i was being self-deprecating. I understand now that it may be difficult to get through my original post but try again and you shall see I am so about mocking myself.



Well, shit...

A couple of things here:

1) Seems as though I completely missed the point (wouldn't be the first time, of course). You joke+me serious=bad mix. What I saw was you saying, "I don't care if you understand me or not; keep your grammar off my language"--hence the vehemence of my original post. It looked to me like you were voicing a complete lack of regard for every person on the board. This, apparently is not the case, and as the dust settles I'm surprised to find that I'm the one with egg on my face, in spite of having spent the whole time throwing them in your direction.

2) Mea culpa. I'm sorry that my misunderstanding of your statements resulted in an ugly stink. There's precious little high ground left for me to occupy, but admitting a wrong committed usually counts. Not much more to say that won't be counted as excusing myself.

3) Peevishness--should be a word if it isn't.

4) Venial vs. mortal--wins best analogy 2006.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:57 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Corum:
That energy doesn't get put into the momentum during launch; only as the atmophere thins a lot does the shuttle go sideways and speed up to 18000mph. It doesnt do that in the thick atmosphere and it doesnt leave a fiery trail or lose radio contact on the way UP.


It's also a lot to do with angle of attack. During take off the shuttle is exposing a very small profile and thus surface area to the oncoming air, during re-entry the shuttle exposes a much larger surface area in the direction of travel.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Friday, January 20, 2006 2:03 AM

KENT


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Erm, no the compression of the Air particles causes friction in the air. The Heat comes entirely from friction, and in fact most of the heat during re-entry comes from the friction with the air hitting the craft, as at high altitudes the pressure is too low for air compression to make that much of an impact.

That is in fact one of the reasons why the temperatures experienced by a craft during re-entry are higher than those during exit, because during exit a lot of the heating happens away from the skin of the spacecraft.




Well that's strange. The way I learnt it is, that air hyper compresses into a shock layer in front of the space craft. The shock layer is so hot that it turns into a plasma (this is the "fire" you see building up around the nose of the craft on entry). The heat from the plasma is then transmitted through heat conduction processes.

(Sorry 'bout the late reply btw)

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