GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River. Answers!!!

POSTED BY: 25MYTURN25
UPDATED: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:22
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 23005
PAGE 1 of 2

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:34 PM

25MYTURN25


Okay I have a couple of questions regarding River. Only because I lover her character and her lines always seem to have meaning behind them, some of which I don't always catch, so that's why I am posting this.
1) In Serenity When Mal says to the Operative "I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain" What does he mean. I know he is talking about the Reavers and Miranda, but what does that have to do with hurting River, and If she went to an academy on miranda how come she didn't either become Reaver like or lay down and die.
2) In Ariel when Jayne is looking into an open body holder thing River wakes up and says something, in the Subtittles it says inaudioble or something, does anyone know what she says or is she just mumbling.

Okay I know there is more but I really can't think right now, so if anyone has answers or theorys OR more questions please ask/answer. Thanks

peace. . . .for now

River: You belived her, Made a face.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:40 PM

CHOPPYBADGER


Gak! I think what 'burned up her brain' was that she was in a room with all the 'big wigs' of the alliance and absorbed every bad secret that they had been involved in. It seems the tests on Miranda was one of the more terrible secrets. River never was on Miranda. The debacle on Miranda took place 10 years ago, if I recall correctly, so I doubt River was there. The whole point why the Operative is seeking her out is because she knows, or is suspected of knowing every bad thing the Alliance did, and of course, sees it as quite damaging to the Alliance's iron grip on humanity. That is my thinking anyway.

Heresy grows from Grottiness...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:44 PM

STAKETHELURK


1) Throughout the film it’s implied that one of the things making River crazy is the memory of Miranda she picked up off the Alliance leadership. The memory is sort of tangled up in her brain in a way that she doesn’t quite understand it, but its presence seems to be contributing to her lunacy. Hence, once the secret is out, she says “I’m okay.” She’s worked through it and its deleterious effect on her mental state has been remove. She’s still not quite right, though.

River never actually went to an Academy on Miranda. Those weren’t flashbacks as much as dream sequences. She knows what Miranda was like and in her disturbed state places herself there as she struggles to work through the horror locked up inside her brain. But she had never visited Miranda before, so there’s no continuity error.

EDIT: I see ChoppyBadger has beaten me to the punch. Well, I hope this post is still useful to you.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:46 PM

JAYSONAYCH


Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Okay I have a couple of questions regarding River. Only because I lover her character and her lines always seem to have meaning behind them, some of which I don't always catch, so that's why I am posting this.
1) In Serenity When Mal says to the Operative "I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain" What does he mean. I know he is talking about the Reavers and Miranda, but what does that have to do with hurting River, and If she went to an academy on miranda how come she didn't either become Reaver like or lay down and die.
2) In Ariel when Jayne is looking into an open body holder thing River wakes up and says something, in the Subtittles it says inaudioble or something, does anyone know what she says or is she just mumbling.

Okay I know there is more but I really can't think right now, so if anyone has answers or theorys OR more questions please ask/answer. Thanks

peace. . . .for now

River: You belived her, Made a face.



1) She was never on Miranda. She telepathically learned of what happened on Miranda elsewhere. At the beginning of the film, it was mentioned how she had been put into the same room as high ranking government officials who knew secrets...one of those secrets was what happened on Miranda. The events were highly traumatic for River to take and the knowledge of what happened were a big part of her becoming mentally unstable (though the experiments I'm sure also helped quite a bit). Ergo, knowing the secret "burned up her brain."

2) I'll have to check...I'm not sure...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:47 PM

RIVER6213


River should find a time machine and take a trip back to the current-Earth-That-Is....she would go insane here.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:52 PM

25MYTURN25


Okay thanks for all the answers on my first question It all seems so simple now lol, feel like an idiot I do.....lol anyways what about (2) and another one to add to the list

3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.

Trust me there will be more hahahahahaha

Mal: He'll kill you, kill every last one of them if it comes to that and he he'll sleep well that night.
Nandi: Rance Burgess is just a man, and I wont let any man take what's mine. I doubt you'de do differently in my position.
Mal: well lady. . .You're my kind of stupid

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:00 PM

KATJEN


Quote:



3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.



I assumed she was talking about Jayne being too greedy? He's definitely on the naughty kid list during that eppy up until the end...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:14 PM

THESOAPBOXER


Quote:

2) In Ariel when Jayne is looking into an open body holder thing River wakes up and says something, in the Subtittles it says inaudioble or something, does anyone know what she says or is she just mumbling.


She says, "Copper for a kiss?" Why? 'Cause River's crazy.

__________________________
Juhguh JEE HUA jun kuhPAH!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:51 PM

CHOPPYBADGER


The word 'copper' is implying a penny. But that is beside the point, you are right, she is just craaaazy!!!

The only law on the battlefield of the 41st millenium every Grot should know is: 'old da pin, fro' deh uvah part!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:06 PM

JACQUI


"Copper for a kiss?"

I always figured she was refering to Jayne's turning them in.

"Copper" being the money and "kiss" being the acclaim he thought he was going to get after he made the ship 'safe' again without the 'fugies' on board.

*~*~*
"He's hurting a woman, he really *is* a bad guy... and I wouldn't call him a gentleman."
- Kyle, 9, watching 'Serenity'.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:17 PM

THESOAPBOXER


Wouldn't it be "Copper and a kiss" then?

But, yeah, it probably was some sort of premonition on River's part, just not a very well communicated one. Even River seemed to be confused as to why she just said that.

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny? ~Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:20 PM

THEONETRUEBIX


Quote:

Those weren’t flashbacks as much as dream sequences.


Well, the first one was probably a dream-memory of an actual classroom conversation she had when she was in GenEd, prior to going to the Alliance academy (except for the stylus to the head). It's the one classroom sequence that isn't presented in the blown-out-haze used to designate the dreams she has later on.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:14 PM

STDOUBT


Quote:

3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.


I've mused that while in custody, River realized
that Jayne had sold them out, and became serene
and almost forgiving of him. The Christmas speech
*may* allude to Jayne's own crushing childhood.
Always being taken from -having to scrap for everything he got. Makes a nice explanation for his
mercenary lifestyle. It's always struck me odd how
Jayne is so intent on having her "shut up, or I will
shut you up.." May be she's seeing right into him.
And it's wiggin' him out.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:19 AM

MRBEN


"Copper for a kiss" I'm sure is a literary reference of some sort, but I'm blowed if I can remember where. In terms of etymology it's likely to be a phrase associated with prostitution, which maybe indicates how River feels about the whole deal. Plus you have the nice double meaning of the word 'copper' - money and policeman.

I always thought that the bit about Christmas in Ariel was River talking about Christmas in the Academy - hadn't thought about it being about Jayne.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:31 AM

KIBBSTER


Quote:

Originally posted by thesoapboxer:
Wouldn't it be "Copper and a kiss" then?

But, yeah, it probably was some sort of premonition on River's part, just not a very well communicated one. Even River seemed to be confused as to why she just said that.

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny? ~Joss Whedon



If she had a premonition about Jayne could "Copper for a kiss" be referring to Jayne selling them out with a Judas kiss?

He was pretending to protect them on Ariel when he sold them out.

So Copper for a kiss seems to be reasonable in this case.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:30 AM

DONCOAT


Well, the only Google references for "copper for a kiss" are Firefly related.

My initial interpretation was that it's a variant on "Penny for your thoughts" -- that is, an expression that would be used in some social situation to indicate that you're interested in someone. Possibly a tradition like Christmas mistletoe?

If this is accurate, then I don't think it was directed at Jayne in particular. Maybe it's a remnant of a romantic dream River was having as she woke up.

But then she continues, "They're doing it backwards; walking up the downslide." This sounds like some random crazy talk. I don't see how it fits in with the situation, unless it's just an inside-out way of saying "there's something wrong here".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:45 AM

MUIRGHEAL


I could be way off here but I think the copper for a kiss thing is aluding to Judas betraying Jesus, taking a bag of money and then kissing Jesus before handing him over the Pilat's men.

That he had totally betrayed them and then tried to make it seem like he was trying to save them. Covering his own behind. In that episode he went from being real hateful to them to suddenly being all chummy and I think in her way she was hinting that she knew he had betrayed them.

Muirgheal
A Shiny Happy Person

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:17 AM

KIBBSTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Muirgheal:
I could be way off here but I think the copper for a kiss thing is aluding to Judas betraying Jesus, taking a bag of money and then kissing Jesus before handing him over the Pilat's men.

That he had totally betrayed them and then tried to make it seem like he was trying to save them. Covering his own behind. In that episode he went from being real hateful to them to suddenly being all chummy and I think in her way she was hinting that she knew he had betrayed them.

Muirgheal
A Shiny Happy Person



That's what I meant, but you said it so much better than me!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:54 AM

USMC


River is Hot!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:28 AM

PRINCESSROHANNEN


Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:


3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.




I always figured that particular bit of gibberish to be a metaphor for Jayne's disappointment. Christmas is the reward that Jayne was looking forward to for turning the two of them in. When the fed stabbed Jayne in the back, he took away Christmas.

I like to keep in mind when I listen to River talk that she's NUTS. I imagine that most of the time, she's trying to convey actual coherent ideas, but her brains are so scrambled that everything she wants to say gets jumbled on the way out. Plus, the voices in her head have got to be a little confusing. I don't think she can even tell the difference between dreaming and waking life.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:26 AM

HAEKELDRACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by USMC:
River is Hot!



Not very qualified, but i totally agree ;)


---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:35 AM

HARTMEISTER


It could also be a warning for anyone in general looking into River's mind (and her secrets she posseses) has a penalty. For example in "Ariel" the Blue Sun people kill off the policemen who process River because they do an interrogation of her.

Select to view spoiler:


It could also be a warning to Jayne not to turn her in or kill her off because she is going to save their lives at the end of Serenity.



Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:


3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:01 AM

BOWIE


River
They took Christmas away.Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal.
Jayne
Christmas?
Simon.
River, whata re you talking about?

River
Christmas. You can't open your
presents before.And don't look in the closet, either.That's greedy. It's not in the
spirit of the holiday.

My translation.
River
They aren't paying you. You were so excited about getting paid, came down with your hopes up, but instead your being arrested with us.

Jayne.
I have a bad feeling about what your saying.
Simon:
I have no clue. I really don't understand River
River.
You can't count on getting paid before. Don't look for bad ways of making money, its greedy. Its wrong to pretend to protect people and then sell them, not in the spirit of family.

thats my feelings anyway.


If you play Nationstates.net check out the region Firefly.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:48 AM

DANIELWRIGHTMUSIC


Pretty sure that "Copper for a kiss" was a reference to Judas's betrayal of Jesus. It would makes sense being that River had been spending time with Book's Bible. Yeah, pretty sure about this one.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:22 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


Quote:

Originally posted by danielwrightmusic:
Pretty sure that "Copper for a kiss" was a reference to Judas's betrayal of Jesus. It would makes sense being that River had been spending time with Book's Bible. Yeah, pretty sure about this one.



Copper? Judas? Huh?

Okay... this may be right. But maybe its just one of Rivers twistet memories. Maybe it´s just referring to Girls which "sell" a Kiss for a Copper?
Rivers way "tripping down memory lane" is some kind of disturbed, she cannot repress Memories like we can do; so every Moment in her past life is like the present for her, River can´t differentiate her memories.
Maybe it was just a Flashback, who knows?

Not everything has to mean more than it obviously does ;)

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:28 PM

DANIELWRIGHTMUSIC


But, but, its almost a direct quote from "Jesus Christ Superstar". Ugh, maybe I just grew up around to many bibles but it was the first thing that came to my mind when the words left her mouth during the episode. Ya know, cause Judas betrays Jesus for copper (pretty sure, the coins during that period) than ya know, kisses him on the cheek. Kinda how Jayne betrays River, minus the kiss and all. Which in my mind is why River says it in the first place, because she wants Jayne to kiss her, cause she has a crush on him, or not. It is quite possible however that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:32 PM

HAEKELDRACHE


Yes. And maybe you´re right. But we´ll have to ask Joss for enlightenment ;)

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:48 PM

SCHOONER


I thought Judas was paid thirty peices of silver, not copper?

I thought this line referred to the old practice of putting copper coins over a dead person's eyes, so they would be able to pay Charon's fee to cross over. Since River had just returned 'from the dead', she would have a couple of unused copper coins. Maybe a slight touch of River/Jayne shipping, there?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:25 PM

SAMEERTIA


Quote:

Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:

I always figured that particular bit of gibberish to be a metaphor for Jayne's disappointment. Christmas is the reward that Jayne was looking forward to for turning the two of them in. When the fed stabbed Jayne in the back, he took away Christmas.




That's what I thought, too, PrincessRohannen, that she was telling the story of Jayne being betrayed by the greed of others, just as his own greed betrayed River and Simon.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:33 PM

25MYTURN25


Also someone mentioned in ariel River says, "we're doing it backwards, going up the downslide." Or somehting like that. What is she talking about?


River - You belived her, made a face.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:27 PM

25MYTURN25


Another thing, in "Safe" River is tied to the post and Simon is beside her, and she says "Post Holer, digging holes for posts." I know that is what kaylee says earlier in the episode but what is behinde that? and why does that make simon do what he does? I probably know the answer but opinions are really good to know.

River - You belived her, made a face.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:40 PM

SAMEERTIA


Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Also someone mentioned in ariel River says, "we're doing it backwards, going up the downslide." Or somehting like that. What is she talking about?


River - You belived her, made a face.




I think she was referring to the doctor who was making the mistake with his patient. "He's doing it backwards. Going up the downslide".
Giving a vaso-restrictor to a heart-surgery patient would have been doing exactly that.

I just wanted to cheer for Simon right there, and the proud look that River gives him when he comes back... priceless!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:48 PM

SAMEERTIA


Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Another thing, in "Safe" River is tied to the post and Simon is beside her, and she says "Post Holer, digging holes for posts." I know that is what kaylee says earlier in the episode but what is behinde that? and why does that make simon do what he does? I probably know the answer but opinions are really good to know.

River - You belived her, made a face.



I think the best people to answer that one are Tim Minear and Joss Whedon. To me it's one of those brilliant multi-layered moments, where things come to a head. In fact, all of "Safe" is like that. That's why I think it's my favorite episode.

River says ALOT in "Safe"; her swearing fit that ends with her looking straight at Mal and saying "You're not him."
Mal isn't who?

Later, we learn about their father practically abandoning River and rejecting Simon for trying to save her.
Did she mean Mal wasn't her father? Later, when she says, "Daddy will come for us, and I'll get better." was she really referring to Mal, confusing the patriarchal (sp?) figures in her life?

"Post holer- for digging holes for posts." Repeating Kaylee's words- digging up a 'happy' memory, perhaps? Perhaps trying to show Simon that she's coherent?

Or something even stronger- Kaylee comforts Simon. She loves and admires him. In their darkest hours, is River comforting Simon by recalling Kaylee's words?

Or perhaps it's all of the above.



NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:55 PM

THEONETRUEBIX


Quote:

River says ALOT in "Safe"; her swearing fit that ends with her looking straight at Mal and saying "You're not him."
Mal isn't who?



Ok, I just watched this episode again recently and I do not recall ever hearing her say this.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:41 PM

CHOPPYBADGER


Back then, didn't they pay stuff with goats or cuneiform clay tablets or something?!!

_________________________________________
The only law on the battlefield of the 41st millenium every Grot should know is: 'old da pin, fro' deh uvah part!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:18 PM

SAMEERTIA


It's there.

Right in the beginning, she swears and throws Simon's med kit just as Mal enters.
At the end of her swearing she looks straight at him and says "Your not him."

Mal looks at Simon and says, "So, she's added swearing and hurling about of things to her repetoire."
Simon: "She's just having a bad day is all."

Mal: "No, a bad day is when someones yelling spooks the cattle. You ever seen cattle stampede when it's got nowhere to go?"


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:07 PM

25MYTURN25


Little ol' me got y'all yet another question about the ever mysterious ways of river tam. In Safe (again) At the very beggining right after the flashback River says something like

"Stupid S O B dressed me up like a gorram doll!" Uhhh what? Is this refering to her expreince at the academy or something I don't know, but answer if you do

River - You belived her, made a face.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:12 PM

KYLELITKE


For the record, as far as "Copper for a kiss" goes, I kind of got the same "Judas/Jesus" reference...Judas sold Jesus out by going up to him and kissing him, to let the soldiers know which one was Jesus. It struck me as one of those crazy River things where she kind of knows what's going on, but not entirely, and nobody else would ever know what she was talking about.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:18 PM

KYLELITKE


Quote:

Originally posted by schooner:
I thought Judas was paid thirty peices of silver, not copper?

I thought this line referred to the old practice of putting copper coins over a dead person's eyes, so they would be able to pay Charon's fee to cross over. Since River had just returned 'from the dead', she would have a couple of unused copper coins. Maybe a slight touch of River/Jayne shipping, there?



You're right, it was thirty pieces of silver, but on the other hand, "Thirty pieces of silver for a kiss" doesn't sound quite good. ;)

In all honesty though, Judas received thirty pieces of silver, but since then the phrase has been used in other ways, but essentially boils down to "money to sell me out", no matter which words are used. I honestly don't know for sure what the intent was, but I always assumed it was a Judas reference without being obvious.

And just as another point of curiosity, wasn't it just a couple of episodes before (Jaynestown, I believe) that River was messing with Book's bible and trying to fix it? Could be where she picked up the Judas thing, even if she changed the phrase. Just a thought.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:04 AM

STDOUBT


The mentioning of the silver reminds me -

I haven't seen anyone on this board mention that
right after betraying our BDH, Mr. Universe turns
to the Operative and says "..hand me my thirty coin..". An obvious reference to Christ's betrayal.
Scary!!!!
edit: P.S. I am wigging out that I can't find any
non-FF/Serenity reference to "copper for a kiss".
If that's truly original to Whedon -the boy IS a
gorram genius.
"Copper for a kiss" Just sounds SO real-life Olde
England!!!!!

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:37 AM

JELLYBEAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bowie:
River
They took Christmas away.Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal.
Jayne
Christmas?
Simon.
River, whata re you talking about?

River
Christmas. You can't open your
presents before.And don't look in the closet, either.That's greedy. It's not in the
spirit of the holiday.

My translation.
River
They aren't paying you. You were so excited about getting paid, came down with your hopes up, but instead your being arrested with us.

Jayne.
I have a bad feeling about what your saying.
Simon:
I have no clue. I really don't understand River
River.
You can't count on getting paid before. Don't look for bad ways of making money, its greedy. Its wrong to pretend to protect people and then sell them, not in the spirit of family.

thats my feelings anyway.



That was more or less my interpretation it as well. It struck me that she really did seem to be directing the comment at Jayne. I didn't quite get it all the first time I watched it but second time 'round I was fairly certain that she was acknowledging that Jayne had betrayed them only to miss out on his reward and get arrested with them.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:02 PM

RHYIANAN


The "copper for a kiss" thing could also have been a reference to ancient greeks. They would put a copper coin in the mouths of dead children. Since both her and simon were obviously educated (remember the egyptian reference?) she could have picked up that fact somewhere in her jumbled brain and said it as a joke. If I remember right, she laughs after saying it.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a spaceship, dear.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:06 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by JellyBean:
Quote:

Originally posted by Bowie:
River
They took Christmas away.Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal.
Jayne
Christmas?
Simon.
River, whata re you talking about?

River
Christmas. You can't open your
presents before.And don't look in the closet, either.That's greedy. It's not in the
spirit of the holiday.

My translation.
River
They aren't paying you. You were so excited about getting paid, came down with your hopes up, but instead your being arrested with us.

Jayne.
I have a bad feeling about what your saying.
Simon:
I have no clue. I really don't understand River
River.
You can't count on getting paid before. Don't look for bad ways of making money, its greedy. Its wrong to pretend to protect people and then sell them, not in the spirit of family.

thats my feelings anyway.



That was more or less my interpretation it as well. It struck me that she really did seem to be directing the comment at Jayne. I didn't quite get it all the first time I watched it but second time 'round I was fairly certain that she was acknowledging that Jayne had betrayed them only to miss out on his reward and get arrested with them.


Same take here - and I love that she is teasing him about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:37 AM

THEPISTONENGINE


I agree with what other people have said, River did gleam Miranda from the Alliance parliment and she did get better when she realized what the whole truth was, but...
I also think Mal's quote is also his own misunderstanding of the situation. He sees the truth burning up River's mind, but he isn't necessarily thinking about the drugs and lobotomies.
Maybe I'm just biased, but I love it when dialog shows a character to misunderstand something, especially so subtlely. Makes them human. (He had a sword stuck through him and still kicked the crap out of the operative, something has to show he's not infallible)

Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
1) In Serenity When Mal says to the Operative "I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain" What does he mean. I know he is talking about the Reavers and Miranda, but what does that have to do with hurting River, and If she went to an academy on miranda how come she didn't either become Reaver like or lay down and die.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:31 PM

GRAYALBATROSS


The "Going up the downslide" thing is a reference to the fact that they were going from the Mourge to the Recovery Ward. Doing it backwards.

***
When in doubt, consult the hamster.

Also, I can kill you with my brain

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:50 PM

ZEEK


I really never put "Copper for a kiss" as being a read she had on what was going on. Mainly because right after it Jayne acts way too nervous and that's when you see her get the read on him and it hits her what he's planning. At least that's always what I thought the look on her face was.

Unless it's that her mind read that he was going to betray them. Her mouth spit it out. Then she actually processed it consciously and figured it out.

Either way I don't really see Joss using two Judas references in the same verse. He's more creative than that.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 7:41 PM

LITTLEMOUSE


Quote:

Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Another thing, in "Safe" River is tied to the post and Simon is beside her, and she says "Post Holer, digging holes for posts." I know that is what kaylee says earlier in the episode but what is behinde that? and why does that make simon do what he does? I probably know the answer but opinions are really good to know.

River - You belived her, made a face.



As you noticed, she's actually tied to a post. A couple of hours earlier she was playing with the same kind of instrument that dug the hole for the post that she is now tied too. She thinks it's ironically funny.

------------
"People tell you things all the time without talking. The way they move; the way they aren't talking." -River Tam, R. Tam Sessions: Session 1 Excerpt

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 8:50 PM

ELWOODMOM


Reading this thread is very enlightening!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 2, 2006 12:27 AM

ASARIAN


Hi 25myturn25,

Very pleased to meet you. Any friend of River is a friend of mine. :)

River, as you know by now, was never on Miranda. In fact, what happened at Miranda happened several years ago. We know this, because Kaylee suddenly remembers the name (after the Maidenhead fight):

Kaylee: Wait a tick; yeah. Some years back there was a call for workers to settle on Miranda.

The mishap with the "pax" (G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate) is the big secret the Allience is afraid River knows (a rather cute name for their 'pacifier', as 'pax', of course, is Latin for 'peace'). And why are they afraid River knows? The Operative lays it all out:

Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Doctor? ... It's Pride.
(Operative shows recording of Dr. Mathias saying to Simon)
Dr. Mathias: Key members of Parliament have personally observed this subject.
(Operative pauses recording)
Operative: "Key members of Parliament." ... Key. The minds behind every diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy. And you put them in a room with a psychic!

Later, after River woke up from the effects of the safe phrase, she hints to knowing things that are not hers:

River: The memory. It isn't mine. And I shouldn't have to carry it. It isn't mine.

As for "Copper for a kiss", I think it really means: a penny for your thought. As in: "I'd really like to know what you're thinking." I think River is, in fact, referring to Jayne's betrayal, but in a more subtle way than the whole Judas' thing. It's more like a tease; like: "Hmm, wouldn't it be interesting to know what you're thinking?" Like psyching Jayne out. Only River really knows what she meant, of course. :)

"Stupid SOB, dress me up like a Gorram Doll!"

This is an interesting one. :) I do not have the official script (as I am shamefully new to this myself, actually); but maybe she's saying:

"Dress me up like a Gorham doll!"

As Gorham dolls are rare, collectible child dolls. Although "gorram" really does fit the scene better (wasn't she cussing in Chinese, thereafter?). We need an expert in here. Unless there's already an official script proving me wrong; nah mei guan-shee.

P.S. Okay, novacane is wearing off (had an early dental appointment). Time to go to sleep again. :)

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 2, 2006 11:52 AM

BLADEACHILLES


Concerning the comment "Copper for a kiss"- my first reaction to that line was something along the lines of River wanting to kiss Jayne because she's crushing on him, and she brings up Jayne's love for money as a sort of 'if you kiss me I will pay you.', and she just blurted it out because she was waking up disorientated. Upon further pondering, I am more in agreement to the thought that it refers to Jayne's betrayal.

One more interesting River moment I want to bring up is that in OiS, she doesn't wake up Jayne to help fight Early. Was it because she doesn't trust him? Or maybe because the situation called for a little subtlety and Jayne would have just barged in shooting. Any thoughts out there?

"If I was creating the world, I wouldn't have wasted my time with daffodills and butterflies! I would've started with lasers. 8 o'clock. Day One." -Evil Incarnate

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Serenity is a Fantastic Movie.
Thu, July 11, 2024 07:30 - 6 posts
Joss was right... Mandarin is the language of the future...
Mon, July 8, 2024 18:57 - 13 posts
Why isn't this a bigger story?
Mon, July 8, 2024 08:27 - 3 posts
The Running of the Jaynes is a Virtual Run/Walk 5k between July 13th and July 28, 2024. A CSTS affiliate charity event.
Wed, July 3, 2024 03:43 - 1 posts
Browncoat Ball PA October 25th - 27th 2024 t-shirts available.
Sun, June 30, 2024 23:00 - 1 posts
In your opinion is there a perfect movie?
Sat, June 29, 2024 23:08 - 82 posts
Dystopian movies which are no longer Dystopian
Tue, June 25, 2024 14:09 - 2 posts
Why most Hollyweird 'Actors' (polanski defenders) are just messed in the head
Mon, June 17, 2024 20:25 - 14 posts
The one fim you want released on dvd!
Fri, June 14, 2024 11:06 - 34 posts
Victorian Female Batman???
Tue, June 11, 2024 04:31 - 48 posts
5 Reasons it sucks being a Joss Whedon fan
Sun, June 2, 2024 03:46 - 23 posts
Top 10 sci-fi battles
Sun, June 2, 2024 02:45 - 13 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL