GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Where are the chicks? Ahem... I mean Reaverettes?

POSTED BY: ISAACSHEPHERD
UPDATED: Saturday, February 18, 2006 08:57
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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:10 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD


I was watching the BDM lately and I had noticed that there are no female Reavers. Although we only see flashes of them on occasion, it just accured to me that normally Joss does everything with a purpose, either for plot later on when we get more Firefly/Serenity or for symbolism sake. And stating that only .10% of the population of Miranda became Reavers I wonder if there is a certain characteristic that makes one susceptible to becomming a Reaver.
In Bushwacked I believe it was the guy that turned into a Reaver was a male possibly around his twenties or so. Creating more Reavers would also be difficult for them unless Mal's theory is correct from Bushwacked. Just wondering if anyone else had any insight on this or perhaps there are female Reavers that I hadn't noticed.
IS


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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:28 AM

GRIZWALD


I've never spotted any female Reavers, either. Perhaps in their savagery at the beginning they turned on one another, overpowering the less strong, until their madness progressed to the point where they no longer felt pain and no longer bothered to attack one another because the thrill of inflicting pain was gone in one another, but by that point, all that were left were the biggest, strongest, most savage.

Just an idea.

I posted a theory a week or so ago here about maybe the Reavers being composed of the very top stratum of intelligence of the population, since they are able despite their madness to maintain their ships and keep flying. I also believe that

Select to view spoiler:


River got at least one dose of the Pax while in the "school" - I believe that is what she was telling us in the River Tam Sessions - but this met with some rather vehement disagreement here on this board when I mentioned it the last time. I still think that's what happened. Certainly it goes with the intelligent subject + Pax = Reaver theory; she is the most intelligent of all, and her Pax was administered under controlled conditions.


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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:33 AM

JONUS


Male Reavers = Creepy, yet cool

Female Reavers = Just plain gross

Attack me, not my opinion.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:44 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD


That's an interresting theory GRIZWALD. That sounds possible to me. If she did get a controlled amount of the Pax, that could explain her multiple personalities, soldier one minute, next a little girl. The PAX could have created a violent personality (like cutting Jayne with the knife)or destroyed part of River's orignal, but the Alliance created for figured out how to trigger it the Reaver in her. It makes me wonder what the other subjects were like considering River was the best of the experiments. Losing her mind at times, yet unstable.
IS

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:44 AM

MALNOURISHED


I thought that there was at least one female Reaver near the beginning of the BDM.

Maybe in the scene on Lilac where...

Select to view spoiler:


...the little boy is telling his Mom that he heard gunfire, and she tells him to run tell Lawman. She then promptly gets her face bitten off, of course, and I think the Reaver who did it was female.



I don't have the DVD with me at the moment to check, so I could be wrong.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:03 AM

PURPLEBELLY


I assumed that the Reavers' sexual identities were akin to those of the dwarves in the Pratchett canon -- that is, necessary but obscure.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:21 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by MalNourished:
I thought that there was at least one female Reaver near the beginning of the BDM.



I reviewed that scene; the shot is extremely brief, virtually subliminal, but I don't think the reaver in question is female.

As to the lack of female reavers, it's not too surprising; human agression is tied up with hormone levels, and testosterone is one of the strongest agression stimulators. It wouldn't be unreasonable that only males develop the overagression syndrome that makes one a reaver. (It's not sexism, folks, it's biochemistry.)

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:36 AM

PENGUIN


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Quote:

Originally posted by MalNourished:
I thought that there was at least one female Reaver near the beginning of the BDM.



I reviewed that scene; the shot is extremely brief, virtually subliminal, but I don't think the reaver in question is female.

As to the lack of female reavers, it's not too surprising; human agression is tied up with hormone levels, and testosterone is one of the strongest agression stimulators. It wouldn't be unreasonable that only males develop the overagression syndrome that makes one a reaver. (It's not sexism, folks, it's biochemistry.)

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn



I agree...It would all be related to testosterone..


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Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:46 AM

RHYIANAN


I just assumed that you couldn't really tell the gender of the reavers. Who knows how far the self mutilation actually goes? Not to mention that you really don't get to see the reavers up close for any decent period of time to see if they are male or female.

The apparent lack of female reavers could be a psychological thing too. We're so used to believing that males are more aggressive than females, so we see them all as male.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a spaceship, dear.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:58 AM

HERA


I keep meaning to pause and check this, but I keep thinking the first Reaver that Inara shoots (the one that hit Zoe in the back) is a female.

Conjecture at this point. I'll research and get back.

"Wanna?" – Mal to Kaylee, Out of Gas

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:32 PM

CHINDI


women are too smart to be that craven...
:-)

reavers rape you till you die... women are ill equipped for raping...

Chindi

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:01 PM

SHADOWCHILD


Funny, I usually notice things like that. Some of the Reavers do have longish hair, not that that necessisarily means anything but perhaps why I didnt notice before. I wonder if they reproduce. It would seem theyd need to, the fleet between Haven and Miranda is WAY too big in my opinion to be only 10% of Miranda's pop. Either that or theres not many Reavers per ship...but that wouldnt fit the masses seen in the raiding parties...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You are such a boob."

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:05 PM

GRIZWALD


Quote:

Originally posted by ShadowChild:
...I wonder if they reproduce. It would seem theyd need to....



Well, after all, there ARE raver breeding parties...

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:18 PM

SHADOWCHILD


There ARE? O.o ...Ew...That must be...interesting...to see... ><

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You are such a boob."

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:27 PM

ELOISA


The point about female Reavers and rape was dead on, but the point about the number of Reavers in that fleet was completely wrong. The BDM is set only ten years after the Miranda disaster. There hasn't been enough time to breed more late-adolescents or adults. There must have been more people on Miranda than we think - unless some of the Reavers in the fleet were "created" afterwards like the guy in Bushwhacked.

Anyway, if the Reavers were created due to an environmental issue, would this be a mutation in their DNA and therefore heritable, or would it be a one-off?

***
http://forums.ffonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19
Creative Writing

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:39 PM

GRIZWALD


Not to get too specific, graphic or downright gross, rape is not normally a sexual act. It a violent act that assaults the victim's sexuality. Female Reavers, if there were any, could rape too in that sense.

I don't think Reavers procreate. If by some chance a female Reaver brought a baby to term, what kind of nurturing do you think that child would receive? - Probably murder on sight. If not, then torture to death, just like all other helpless feeling creatures they can get their hands on.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:26 PM

AMYEL


If you read the script book (which you totally should anyways), the script specifically mentions a female reaver on Lilac. Whether the reaver scenes were actually filmed with women or not is another thing, but in the script process at least, Joss had planned on there being female reavers.


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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:38 PM

THEPISTONENGINE


Female Reavers would be HOT!

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:47 PM

CHRISPV


Re: Reaver reproduction

The popular theory with my little Browncoat group is that Reavers are somehow able to sense each other and, for whatever reason, don't attack. If there wasn't some kind of mechanism stopping them from tearing each other apart, I doubt they could even FORM Reaver boarding parties, let alone raver breeding parties. They may be savage, but the do appear organized, heck, in the BDM chase, some of them are on gunner duty! That implies, to me, organization of some kind, and the ability to tell friend from lunch.

As such, we figured that the Reavers are able to somehow tell whoever has the particular genetic defect required to become a Reaver when exposed to Pax. Now they can either intentionally or by accident carry the Pax with them in the atmospheres of their ships, or perhaps even in their own bloodstream/bodily fluids. In any case, they might have found the poor devil from Bushwhacked, sensed he could be a Reaver, and exposed him to Pax either intentionally or by accident by simply sensing his genetic abnormality and not killing him. After all, he was aboard that ship, alone, for at least a few months. If memory serves, wasn't the ship due to have arrived at its destination a good six months ago? Plenty of time, methinks, for a body to be mutated by an atmospheric contaminant in a confined, airtight space.

Just our theory, take it as you will.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal, Fox!

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:43 PM

COPILOT


I'm stupped. Although female Reavers would just be really gross as was stated before.

An I carried such a torch

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:32 PM

THENCDUCK


I think reavers are only men, but wouldn't there have been like 3 million reavers to begin with. In the BDM didn't the lady say that 30 mil people died, so there had to be at least a couple million Reavers. That population will last for awhile just a thought.

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Friday, February 17, 2006 1:49 AM

THEPISTONENGINE


"A tenth of a percent"

0.001 * 30,000,000 = 30,000 Reavers

And I'd so totally do a Reaver chick

Quote:

Originally posted by THENCDUCK:
I think reavers are only men, but wouldn't there have been like 3 million reavers to begin with. In the BDM didn't the lady say that 30 mil people died, so there had to be at least a couple million Reavers. That population will last for awhile just a thought.


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Friday, February 17, 2006 5:41 AM

KAELE


Just got the novelization and am reading through it as slowly as possible... Picked up Batman Begins after seeing the movie and it was a straight-shot, easy-read, carbon copy of the movie. Serenity is not, THANK BOOK!!!

While watching the River Tam sessions and seeing a little pic online that could have been the notebook of the doctor (played by some weird guy named Josh I think), there was an up-close shot of the writing on the notepad. On it, there was mention of Pax being administered to River.

Now, in the novelization, it says River can't sense the Reavers until they kill. They just aren't there, like dead people. Perhaps the Pax is tied into the ESP aspect of the experiments and that the Reavers can't sense each other and so ignore each other. River got a controlled dose, but the Reavers got a full-on, drawn-out, genocide-inducing dose dumped into the terraforming equipment.

Just some of my thoughts on it.

Kaele
AIM - Dewlanna
YID - jedi_kaele

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Friday, February 17, 2006 6:22 AM

VTBROWNCOAT


I suspect that either there's some inconsistency in the official "reaver census" or there's more unknown or undocumented reavers apart from the ones from Miranda.

We believe that Miranda had a worldwide population of 30 million, most of whom just curled up and died after being administered Pax. And 1 tenth of 1 percent of that population turned into Reavers, or about 30 thousand. And that happened 10 or 12 years before the events of BDM take place.

It seemed to me the Reavers had quite a large number of ships out there in Reaver territory, some of them quite large and at least some of them packed to the rafters with Reavers. The ship that EMP'd Serenity in BDM and then landed seemed to have quite a large crew, yet wasn't all that much bigger then little ol' Serenity.

Now it's probably save to assume that the average life expectancy of a Reaver isn't all that terrific. And being a Reaver recruiter can't be the most full-filling job in the 'verse either.

A decade or more of floating out there, doing Reaver stuff should diminish the ranks considerably and if they started with 30 thousand and never added any I don't see how they could crew and maintain all those ships. Crewing and maintaining being rather relative terms, considering.

I don't even want to think about Reaver procreation. It doesn't seem like an environment that would easily lend itself to raising and nurturing munchkin Reavers.

Though Reavers, despite their considerable rage are apparently capable of organization and delegation of duties.

"We always hoped you two kids would
get together....... who is she?" Wash in Our Mrs. Reynolds.

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Friday, February 17, 2006 6:25 AM

THENCDUCK


Quote:

Originally posted by ThePistonEngine:
"A tenth of a percent"

0.001 * 30,000,000 = 30,000 Reavers

And I'd so totally do a Reaver chick

Quote:

Originally posted by THENCDUCK:
I think reavers are only men, but wouldn't there have been like 3 million reavers to begin with. In the BDM didn't the lady say that 30 mil people died, so there had to be at least a couple million Reavers. That population will last for awhile just a thought.




Whoops brain fart for some reason I thought she said 10 percent my fault. I need to watch the movie more so don't make mistakes like that again.

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Friday, February 17, 2006 7:25 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD


Here is another thought I just came up with. Whenever anyone says "That ship is operating without containment", you can conclude Reavers are on the ship. I also believe that Wash was the one to say it was suicide to do so. I wonder if operating without containment somehow keeps them alive, or perhaps is related with the air from Miranda or the Pax.
IS

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Friday, February 17, 2006 8:32 AM

SADLITTLEKING


Quote:

Originally posted by VTbrowncoat:
I suspect that either there's some inconsistency in the official "reaver census" or there's more unknown or undocumented reavers apart from the ones from Miranda.

We believe that Miranda had a worldwide population of 30 million, most of whom just curled up and died after being administered Pax. And 1 tenth of 1 percent of that population turned into Reavers, or about 30 thousand. And that happened 10 or 12 years before the events of BDM take place.

It seemed to me the Reavers had quite a large number of ships out there in Reaver territory, some of them quite large and at least some of them packed to the rafters with Reavers. The ship that EMP'd Serenity in BDM and then landed seemed to have quite a large crew, yet wasn't all that much bigger then little ol' Serenity.

Now it's probably save to assume that the average life expectancy of a Reaver isn't all that terrific. And being a Reaver recruiter can't be the most full-filling job in the 'verse either.

A decade or more of floating out there, doing Reaver stuff should diminish the ranks considerably and if they started with 30 thousand and never added any I don't see how they could crew and maintain all those ships. Crewing and maintaining being rather relative terms, considering.

I don't even want to think about Reaver procreation. It doesn't seem like an environment that would easily lend itself to raising and nurturing munchkin Reavers.

Though Reavers, despite their considerable rage are apparently capable of organization and delegation of duties.



I don't think Reaver procreation would ever happen. When they get started, they just don't stop, hence the whole "rape to death" thing.

I believe that Reavers can pass on the Pax somehow. Perhaps through biting. Imagine (or don't) a Reaver attacking someone, biting them and passing on their "virus". If Reavers can sense their own kind (which would explain why they won't attack each other), then it's possible that they can sense when a victim has been afflicted and will stop attacking that person. The guy in Bushwhacked might've been one of the first people attacked, maybe someone helped him to get away from his attacker, and then he ran and hid where he slowly was overcome by the virus, culminating at the point in time when Serenity's crew found him.

So if River was given a dose of Pax, why would the Reavers attack her? Perhaps when the Pax was given to Miranda's population, it was somehow mutated and became what it is to the Reavers, a slightly different strain than what River has. Or maybe the Pax given to River is a more perfected version of it. Something different enough to where Reavers don't recognize it.

But back to the subject of how the Reaver population grew. Well, they've been out there for 10 years. And stories of Reavers have spread throughout the 'verse. So I think we could assume that Reavers have attacked many ships in those 10 years. How many people have they actually turned in that time? Could be a pretty big number. Also, we should consider the possibility that the Alliance has continuously tried to exterminate the Reavers. Perhaps when the outbreak happened, they sent troops in to contain the problem. When that failed, they sent more people in and so on and so forth. But they keep fighting the Reavers because the Reavers are a real threat and not just because they're Reavers, but also because public knowledge of the Reavers is something they want to avoid. So how many Alliance soldiers have been turned?

And maybe that's what the experiments on River were about. They're trying to create a more powerful soldier. Soldiers with an extra sensory perception in combat (think "The Force", a Jedi can feel an attack coming) who could effectively fight the Reavers. Seeing River take on those Reavers in the BDM, I think it worked pretty well.

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Friday, February 17, 2006 6:27 PM

KAELE


Quote:

If Reavers can sense their own kind (which would explain why they won't attack each other), then it's possible that they can sense when a victim has been afflicted and will stop attacking that person.


But this is exactly the opposite of my point. The Pax drug made River hyper-sensitive, and I'm assuming did the same to the Reavers. But they can't sense each other, hence not attacking one another.

Granted, it's based on just a few lines mentioned in the novelization, but it's the train my brain's following.

Kaele
AIM - Dewlanna
YID - jedi_kaele

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Friday, February 17, 2006 11:33 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ShadowChild:

Funny, I usually notice things like that. Some of the Reavers do have longish hair, not that that necessisarily means anything but perhaps why I didnt notice before. I wonder if they reproduce. It would seem theyd need to, the fleet between Haven and Miranda is WAY too big in my opinion to be only 10% of Miranda's pop. Either that or theres not many Reavers per ship...but that wouldnt fit the masses seen in the raiding parties...



Your mind holds interesting thoughts. :)

I dunno, with 1/10th of 1% of 30,000,000 being 30,000 Reavers, that's still a lot of bad critters!

How many Reavers does it take to run a ship? Hmm, probably as many as it takes to screw in a light bulb. :) No, seriously, lets say a fully packed Reaver ship has a crew of about twenty-five. Then you can man about 1,200 ships. That's a lot; but they die easily too (which is to say, they do not seem to take particularly great care not to die). So, in ten years time, they should have thinned out a bit, I guess.

Should they reproduce somehow (eeew), then I'm not sure it would really increase their number, even. Due to the PAX, their aggressor response increased beyond madness. But I'm not really sure the effect can be passed on to their children. Also, it's hard to imagine a Reaver raising a child. :)

I guess we'll have to call it "late quantum state phenomenon". Only way to fit 30,000 Reavers on the same fleet. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:52 AM

EMPXENU


There hasn't been any indication that "reaverness" can be passed on directly. Pax just alters the chemical composition of the brain. The Alliance wanted to turn people into couch potatoes, not mutate them.

----
"I think, therefore I am... I think"

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 6:37 AM

WOLF359


This is a topic that will never be fully settled in our minds I'm thinking.

It would seem a bit too unbelievable that Reavers can contaminate you with some type of disease that turns you into one of them.I think we need to think less in a sci-fi mode and more of a western mode for specific answers as to how the Reavers themselves increase their numbers.

Now remember that Firefly is at it's heart just an anology for the Old West.Yes I know spacecraft and all but it's still true!
Okay now althoughthe Indians of the Old West had their reasons for all the brutality and they weren't "created" by mankinds folly,(although...)they are the proper equivalent of the reavers for our purposes.Yes they had families and children unlike the raevers but like the reavers they would attack "innocent" people out on the plains and would do terrible,unspeakable things to them.Namely the raping and mutilating(scalping!)and just overall torture.Very little of what the reavbers are accused of is not something the indians were also accused of.Sometimes wrongly but very often not.My point is that some persons who were captured by the Indians were never the same again,they went insane and typically stayed that way for the rest of their lives.Som eof these persons were taken into the tribe and sometimes completely lost their identity as a "civilized" person.Sometimes children were taken and then adopted into the tribe and taught the ways of that particular tribe.

Our redskinned brothers were fighting a war against us but generally we just saw them as a scourge and as madmen that were beyond reason and totally savage and beyond anything that we could comprehend.

So I guess that that might be the primary means of "reproduction" among the reavers,abductions.We do see the one individuals reaction to having witnessed the horror of the fates of those persons aboard his ship.Also as to the pax being tranmissible via a bite or something or their having it in their atmo' then why wouldn't there have been some residual of it when our band of BDH's boarded the derelict ship?They were on board for a while and if the reavers use the gas to convert folk then you think that Mal and co. would have been at least slightly affected.

Just some thoughts and opinions on a very fun subject!Hell this is more fun to debate than smoth head vs. bumpy head Klingons!!!

like a trained ape without the training!!!

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:22 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaele:
But this is exactly the opposite of my point. The Pax drug made River hyper-sensitive, and I'm assuming did the same to the Reavers. But they can't sense each other, hence not attacking one another.

Maybe it's the opposite: The Reavers can sense each other, but not anyone else (either they aren't receiving, or they're screaming out so much rage and madness that they just can't "hear" calm, orderly thoughts). No one not-Reaver seems "real," so they don't register as "people," just schizoid nightmare hallucinations. There's a thought; Reavers find us as repulsive and monstrous as we find them. Maybe that's why they cut on themselves --they start seeing their own selves as monsters, and try to cut out the bad parts. . .

So anyway, back to the psychic thing: Reavers attack a ship, the crew panics. Some of them cower in fear (they don't register, and are raped and/or killed), some fight back rationally (they register as threats, and are killed), while some, just a tiny fraction, fight back with a Reaver-like frenzy, just on the border between terror and blind rage. Now, they're speaking the Reavers' language, and they are recognized as kin.

As for River, she's lucid. Even in her crazy times, she's more self-aware and logical than a typical Reaver. To them, her brain would feel like that of a normal human. But she can hear them, like listening in on your enemy's communications during a battle. Suddenly she can fight like a Reaver, know where the line is between Fear and Rage, and can use that boundary line as her weapon, taking Rage and sidestepping it, turning it into Fear. Suddenly the Reavers stop being Reavers, and become. . . Something less. Prey.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:57 AM

FLAUTISTFIRST


Reaver population control:

I think Reavers increase, or add to, by recruitment. Remember what Mal said about a man being made to face that kind of darkness--No choice but to join them.

Remember when the crew was going through Reaver territory on the way to Miranda (in the BDM), they heard lots and lots of people screaming and saw one ship get torn apart. So perhaps these organized Reavers take prisoners and then do the spatula thingy(turn them).

30,000 seems like a lot. 12 years from point of Pax on Miranda it seems that their population has stayed the same or grown (mind you not necessarily the same Reavers, but numbers wise the same).

Another question regarding Reaver population: Did the whole Reaver fleet follow Serenity to Mr. Universe's place? If so, did they all get killed by Alliance or the Crew? If not, how did the Alliance get to the Crew? And also if not, did some Reavers cut and run? Are they still in existence and a threat?


Also, I agree with the Western analogy idea. I don't agree with the person's take on Native Americans. It seemed the person was speaking of a stereotype, not the reality. At least I'm hoping that was what the person meant. Also, remember the Government in the West did terrible things to the Native Americans as well (like Pax on Miranda). And remember the conversation the Crew had about history writing--so true.




Jayne, your mouth is talking. You might want to see to that.

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