GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

who was zoe going to draw on in the bdm?

POSTED BY: OCT0GEN
UPDATED: Monday, March 6, 2006 08:20
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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:21 PM

OCT0GEN


in the scene where mal is arguing w/ simon about river going ape shit in the maidenhead, there is a short cut to to wash sitting at the table. on the left of the screen you see zoe taking her hand off her gun. ive been trying to figure who she was going to draw on. would she have pulled her gun to stop mal before he really got too rough with simon? i cant imagine she would have thought she needed to pull her gun on simon to "protect" mal thinking simon was going to kick mal's ass. i see simon only fighting defensivly. so what do ya think?

edited cuz i cant type

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:28 PM

NOOCYTE


Zoe's not the sort to draw steel unless she was good and gorram willing to use it. And there's no way in the 'verse she was going to shoot Mal.

One can only assume that she was prepared to disable --or worse, if necessary-- Simon (whom she had recently seen pushed further than he'd ever been before), in case he himself went monkeyshit (could be a Tam thing) on Mal (like, mayhap geting his gun away from him or somesuch).

Department of Redundancy Department

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:39 PM

TMURRIE


I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. I don't think she would shoot, but she sure would diffuse the situation. Either it be Mal pointing his gun at Simon, or Simon pulling Mal's gun out. I think she would make sure nothing happened, no matter who was the aggressor...even though both of them were the aggressors really...

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 5:53 AM

KIZYR


Quote:

Originally posted by tmurrie:
I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. I don't think she would shoot, but she sure would diffuse the situation.



Oh yeah... I think when either Zoe or Jayne pulls a gun, everyone quiets down nice and easy, and Zoe's well aware of that. KF



~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.

~Haven Prayer

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 6:09 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by tmurrie:
I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. I don't think she would shoot, but she sure would diffuse the situation. Either it be Mal pointing his gun at Simon, or Simon pulling Mal's gun out. I think she would make sure nothing happened, no matter who was the aggressor...even though both of them were the aggressors really...



All due respect, but you gotta be outta yer mind if you think Zoe was preparing herself to draw down on Mal. In the entire series there is never an instance where Zoe fails to back Mal's play, even when he's wrong (as with Patience) or being a total jackass (as in the Alliance-friendly bar on U-Day). If anything, she would have drawn to keep everyone else quiet while Mal did his work on Simon. If Mal had drawn, she wouldn't have needed to--Cap'n would've been in charge, no need for her to do such a thing. Her breaking leather on Mal would be a clear-cut case of insubordination, one Mal wouldn't have taken kindly to. For sake of reference, when the crew is arguing against Mal's plan to disguise Serenity as a reaver ship, the captain skins his weapon, and no one reacts--not even Zoe. Mal is clearly the man in charge and they all respect that. Don't go reading something back into Zoe's character. It's just ridiculous to think that she would have drawn on the captain.

My read on that was that it was just a subconcious thing for Zoe. Trouble was starting, and she wanted to be prepared (especially since it involved her beloved captain).

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 6:10 AM

MALNOURISHED


I really don't think that Zoe would ever draw her gun on Mal, unless he was getting ready to shoot Wash. I think she knows Mal well enough to understand that he's angry, but not mad enough to kill Simon. I agree that she's prepared to defuse the situation, just in case Simon gets ahold of a weapon and things get out of hand.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 6:20 AM

ZEEK


I 100% think she was one second away from drawing her gun on Mal. I think her questioning him about the man they left behind to the reavers was setting up that Zoe was seeing Mal going over the edge. He already ran off two of the crew. Then he looks like he might just kill another and she is ready to stop him.

I think it was supposed to be a very powerful message to all the fans. If even Zoe thinks Mal is losing control then we all need to take notice.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 7:22 AM

ZOID



Zoe was a split second away from plugging Simon Tam, and I doubt very seriously she would have aimed to only disable him. She'd have shot him blindingly fast, and as near to center mass as possible, same as she did with Tracey in "The Message".

The warrior woman is not nearly as squeamish as y'all are dreaming she is, neither is she nearly as altruistic. Case in point, while she did question Mal about leaving the man for the Reavers, after the fact, let's not forget she was the one driving the mule.

...And she didn't hesitate to obey Mal's order to drive away from the man.

Whatever objections she may have to Mal's reasoning, she never fails to follow his lead. If you want to speculate on something along these lines: Why does she so steadfastly follow him? What factor(s) in Zoe's past cause her to trust his judgment so rigorously? Was it something to do with a specific wartime scenario she shared with him? Did Mal save her from something so horrendous that she can never even think about betraying him?

These are the interesting questions, imo. As to the other questions posed above, the answer is simple: She is mechanically -- almost robotically -- devoted to Mal; like she is hard-wired to follow his every order and protect him.

If Joss were to reveal that Zoe was a military robot, built to serve as Mal's counterpart during the war, it would not surprise me in the least...



Observantly,

zoid

P.S.
...although JW would have some 'splainin' to do regarding Zoe wanting a child from Wash. But, he's already got some to do for killing off Wash and not giving her that child, imo.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 8:41 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD


Quote:

(could be a Tam thing)


Heh heh, I like that. Smarty arty pretentious family, with a dark secret...

(Cut to the Mayfield's ballroom)
Mr. Mayfield: Excuse me, Dr. Tam, have you met my wife Miranda yet?

Dr. Tam: ...Miranda...

Obviously, we don't need a description of what happens next, but it sheds some light into the episode "Safe", where River mentions the Mayfield's ball this year, and her parents and Simon nervously concur that there was no such event.

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 10:32 AM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
She is mechanically -- almost robotically -- devoted to Mal; like she is hard-wired to follow his every order and protect him.



Except that time she married Wash.

Defiantly,
TCM

P.S. And if it came down to Wash or Mal, she would have (*sob* past tense!) killed Mal to save Wash. I believe that. Mal or Simon? Doctor loses every time. Just sayin'.


BWAH!
TCM

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 12:32 PM

KAYNA

I love my captain


Quote:

where River mentions the Mayfield's ball this year, and her parents and Simon nervously concur that there was no such event.


Actually it was the Darbanvill's ball or some such in the show. I'm not sure what the script might say.

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 12:36 PM

KAYNA

I love my captain



Quote:


P.S. And if it came down to Wash or Mal, she would have (*sob* past tense!) killed Mal to save Wash. I believe that. Mal or Simon? Doctor loses every time. Just sayin'.



Sorry, double post, But I totally agree with this. And in the contect of the Movie I really think that it was just an automatic reaction to a really tense and precarious moment. If she'd had to use it she would have but I don't think she had any real palns as to who she was going to use it on. I do think it would have been Simon though.

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 12:43 PM

THESOAPBOXER


I figured it was mostly just instincts (Sudden violent movements = Go for gun!), since she didn't even take it out of the holster.

I doubt she would be drawing on Simon, especially since he was the one with the lower hand (Mal's so much bigger than him) and she's never given any indication of being angry at Simon as much as Mal is.

So I don't think she was reaching for her gun with the intent to shoot anyone. If anything, it was a character note that when there's trouble on the ship, the first thing Zoe's hand goes to is her gun. I think it was Joss in his commentary who said he liked it how each character reacted to Mal's outburst a different way.

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?
~Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:30 PM

SICKDUDE


I'm glad there's a posting on this. Most of the times I saw the BDM, I thought she was backing up Mal. But then it occurred to me Simon was unarmed, had no chance of hurting Mal, and (if I remember right) was already between Mal and the table at the time. We all saw how well Mal did fighting the operative.

I'm assuming she was drawing on Mal, and taking it (and the 'no man left behind' speech at the beginning) as a slight sign of disillusionment brewing. Sorry - flame on.

"It's a cow."

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:41 PM

SICKDUDE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Whatever objections she may have to Mal's reasoning, she never fails to follow his lead. If you want to speculate on something along these lines: Why does she so steadfastly follow him? What factor(s) in Zoe's past cause her to trust his judgment so rigorously? Was it something to do with a specific wartime scenario she shared with him? Did Mal save her from something so horrendous that she can never even think about betraying him?

These are the interesting questions, imo.


Zoid, I do agree that these are interesting points. The one nagging question in my mind while I watch Firefly is "Why does Zoe stay at his side?" When most (all?) vets come back from a war, they may hang out together, but to constantly be partnered up in everything?! There's being grateful that he saved everyone's life, and then there's spending yours at his side. Plus it's fairly obvious that Mal is much more reckless than Zoe is. She obviously loves Wash. When they're talking about having kids, why doesn't she leave with Wash to have a safe life somewhere? They both could get jobs anywhere.



"It's a cow."

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:45 PM

SICKDUDE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Case in point, while she did question Mal about leaving the man for the Reavers, after the fact, let's not forget she was the one driving the mule.

...And she didn't hesitate to obey Mal's order to drive away from the man.



Actually, she did kind of hesitate. She does not speed up (get the mule out of first gear) until the guy is dead. This leaves it open, and gives the guy a chance. And it's not out of fear of hitting things in the city, as evidenced when she does "step on it". You may want to watch the scene again... ( a good excuse to, anyway)

"It's a cow."

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 9:40 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD


Yeah, I was pretty sure it wasn't Mayfield... unfortunately, my DVD of the series is currently lent to a friend, so I couldn't check. I was hoping no one would notice... hmm, probably not the best idea on a board full of people who've watched the full span of the series regularly for the past 3 years...

Here's to the Darbanvills and thier lovely balls.

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 10:35 PM

ZOID


Sickdude wrote:
Quote:

Actually, she did kind of hesitate. She does not speed up (get the mule out of first gear) until the guy is dead. This leaves it open, and gives the guy a chance. And it's not out of fear of hitting things in the city, as evidenced when she does "step on it". You may want to watch the scene again... ( a good excuse to, anyway)

Yer splittin' hairs.

The fact is, she didn't stop the mule and demand he be taken aboard. A man's life hung in the balance and -- yeah, at less than breakneck speed -- she left his ass to the Reavers, as ordered.

Her loyalty to Mal trumps all other considerations.

I've got a couple more for you:

First example: In the pilot, after Dobson shoots Kaylee in the abdomen, Mal wants to dump the Tams with the Feds. Simon issues the ultimatum that he won't save Kaylee unless Mal orders them to make a run for it. It is Inara who prompts Mal to decide against his initial reaction; Kaylee's moan of pain is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Once Mal makes the decision -- and not until, not before -- Zoe immediately signals the bridge and says, "we're running".

Throughout the confrontation, Zoe says nothing like 'We've got to help them' or 'We've got to save Kaylee'. She simply waits for Mal to make his decision, regardless that Kaylee will probably die if he decides against helping the Tams escape. It's Mal's call; she will follow.

Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.

There's more than enough clues here, folks. All the subtle little things she does throughout the series and the movie... Joss' got something up his sleeve with Zoe, and I suspect it ain't all straightforward and virtuous, by a long shot.

On the other hand, maybe Joss isn't that subtle. Maybe he wouldn't intentionally set his audience up for a slow-burn and a kick in the 'nads like that. Joss ain't capable of that level of deception... Right? Whaddya think?



(Over(?)) Imaginatively,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 8:32 AM

SICKDUDE


Zoid,

All good points, to be sure. And I agree: Zoe is excessively loyal and unquestioning to Mal. My only point was that between the mule/survivor scene, the "Sir, do you mean to turn our home..." line, and the gun scene (if you buy that interpretation), the BDM starts to portray that her loyalty is slightly less than it used to be. (only slightly!) Anyway, just my opinion.

Select to view spoiler:


Also, Joss did something similar with Oz and Willow. Who would've thought Oz would cheat on Willow?



Thanks for pointing out the "Wash wouldn't be revived" aspect from War Stories. Completely missed that!

"It's a cow."

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:48 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by thesoapboxer:

I figured it was mostly just instincts (Sudden violent movements = Go for gun!), since she didn't even take it out of the holster.

I doubt she would be drawing on Simon, especially since he was the one with the lower hand (Mal's so much bigger than him)



I completely agree.

It was just an example of Joss' subtle attention to details. Zoe, as a soldier, just instinctively went for the gun, simply because the situation seemed to escalate.

I doubt actually drawing on anyone even occured to her, on a conscious level. Simon is no threat to Mal at all. And Zoe knows this, of course.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 9:53 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

... Her loyalty to Mal trumps all other considerations.

I've got a couple more for you:

First example: In the pilot, after Dobson shoots Kaylee in the abdomen, Mal wants to dump the Tams with the Feds. Simon issues the ultimatum that he won't save Kaylee unless Mal orders them to make a run for it. It is Inara who prompts Mal to decide against his initial reaction; Kaylee's moan of pain is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Once Mal makes the decision -- and not until, not before -- Zoe immediately signals the bridge and says, "we're running".

Throughout the confrontation, Zoe says nothing like 'We've got to help them' or 'We've got to save Kaylee'. She simply waits for Mal to make his decision, regardless that Kaylee will probably die if he decides against helping the Tams escape. It's Mal's call; she will follow.

Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.



All very good, well-thought-out points. :) Thank you!


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 2:58 PM

FIREFLY001


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Sickdude wrote:
Quote:


Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.



Actually no. Wash had to convince Zoe that they needed to rescue Mal. Granted it didn't take much convincing. I remember this distinctly because I liked that the show made it clear who Zoe's strongest loyalties are toward.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 5:47 PM

SHINYFAB


I don't know about that. Although Zoe wasn't the one to begin the subject, she certainly pointed it toward a Mal rescue. At first Wash talks about how crazy Mal is and how Mal saved him. Then Zoe starts talking about how Niska will want to make the pain last for days if possible. Why? The look on her face when Wash heads to the controls is pain and suffering. But at the same time, it almost seems like she is trying to convince Wash to mount a rescue without mentioning it. I always thought her response to Wash at that point seemed completely out of place. If he were really the more important of the two men to her, why would she say this Wash right after rescuing him?

Quote:

Originally posted by firefly001:
Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Sickdude wrote:
Quote:


Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right? But, in the very next scene, we can see that she's only thinking analytically. She says Niska will want to keep Mal alive for as long as possible, in order to prolong the torture and exact full retribution from Mal.

Left unsaid is that Niska has no such designs on Wash. If Wash dies (as indeed Malcolm did) Niska won't feel the need to revive him to extract more pain from him; Wash's lifeless body would just get unceremoniously dumped onto some garbage heap.

Also, since Niska is obviously fixated on Mal as the cause of his loss of reputation with his fellow psychotics, what do you think the chances were that he would've let Zoe walk out with Mal, leaving him with only Wash to torture, had she chosen Mal? Slim to none, I reckon.

She made the only choice she really had. Then, to top it off, after they get back to Serenity, she immediately prepares to leave her soul mate and throw herself vainly against Niska's fortifications in a hopeless attempt to rescue all the remaining pieces of Mal, to go along with his ear, which she already has in her possession. Wash sees her methodically configuring her loadout, and decides to go with her; the rest of the crew eventually follow suit.

But she's going back for Mal, one way or the other.



Actually no. Wash had to convince Zoe that they needed to rescue Mal. Granted it didn't take much convincing. I remember this distinctly because I liked that the show made it clear who Zoe's strongest loyalties are toward.


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Thursday, March 2, 2006 5:51 PM

SHINYFAB


I just wanted to clarify. What I meant was why would Zoe tell Wash Niska's plans for torturing Mal as long as possible? I think it was to inspire (I know this is the wrong word but I couldn't think of the right one) Wash to mount a rescue and help her go back for the captain.

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 10:30 PM

ZOID


Shinyfab:

To Wash's credit, though, he is not simply following Zoe's lead. It's clear -- at least in my mind -- that he has no intention of letting Mal sacrifice himself for his sake. Wash and Zoe are in perfect accord that going back for Mal is the only course of action. There are no other choices.

The whole theme of "War Stories" is that Wash cannot understand Zoe's unflinching loyalty to Mal. By the episode's end, he not only understands her devotion to Mal, he feels it in his bones. Wash has 'walked a mile in her shoes', as the saying goes.

As a result, he is no longer jealous and/or suspicious of Zoe's relationship with Mal.



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Which forces me to reiterate: What kind of hell did Mal rescue Zoe from, to engender loyalty that deep and lasting? Oh, sure, the easy answer is "The Battle of Serenity"; but what specifically happened that ripped these two people in half and then grafted them together at the soul? And all protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, I don't see that loyalty wavering one iota. If she questions Mal, she does it after the fact. "Why did we do that, sir?", instead of "Why are we doing this, Mal?" She gives him input, as during the scene in which Mal decides to flee with the Tams; but it's his decision to make. She will follow him, even when she has grave misgivings. She trusts him implicitly. Something forged that bond between them; I'm wondering what that something might be.
_________________________________________________

"Take me, sir. Take me hard." -Zoe Washburne, Firefly, "War Stories"

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 10:46 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Shinyfab:

To Wash's credit, though, he is not simply following Zoe's lead. It's clear -- at least in my mind -- that he has no intention of letting Mal sacrifice himself for his sake. Wash and Zoe are in perfect accord that going back for Mal is the only course of action. There are no other choices.

The whole theme of "War Stories" is that Wash cannot understand Zoe's unflinching loyalty to Mal. By the episode's end, he not only understands her devotion to Mal, he feels it in his bones. Wash has 'walked a mile in her shoes', as the saying goes.

As a result, he is no longer jealous and/or suspicious of Zoe's relationship with Mal.



And, yet again, I find myself in complete agreement with you! I know, I should probably lay off the "me too" posts a bit; but you're really making all manner of perfect sense in this thread. And I enjoy reading it.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, March 2, 2006 11:35 PM

ZOID


asarian:

These are the topics I really enjoy. I think the richness of meaning within each episode typifies Joss' and his Mutant Enemy co-writers' brilliance. I believe it is this virtuosity in adult storytelling that sets Firefly apart from any other show on television -- ever -- including those Joss has previously created.

Believing in Fate as I do, I believe Joss was born to tell Malcolm Reynold's story. Art springs from the Implicate Order of the universe; It seeks and finds Its vessel to realize Itself. Anyone who has performed artistically has felt the power flow through them as Art expresses itself. When an artist practices or hones their skills, it is only so that they may become a more suitable conduit through which Art may flow...

I know that sounds a bit outre, but believe me, them's the facts.

And here's a little something to chew on:
Mal frequently doesn't know why he makes the choices he does. As Fanty said (or was it Mingo?), he runs when he ought to fight, fights when he ought to deal; he cradles a girl who's just gone apesh*t on an entire barroom and takes her back aboard his ship.

We all know that part of it. But here's the interesting bit: When Mal tells Book about the incident, he questions his own motivations for doing so, figuring that abandoning the Tams would've been the smart play. Book says, "That's not your way, Mal". Mal says, "So I've got a 'way'? Is that better than a plan?"

The word 'tao' means 'way' or 'path' (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao). According to Chinese philosophy, 'Tao' is definitely better than a plan. Mal, who is at odds with God, is talking to a man of God, who is convinced that Mal has a tao, and Mal fancies the notion.

This subtle interplay of words and juxtaposition of archetypal characters -- the apostate and the preacher -- is, again, sheer genius. And the really cool part, to me, is that it probably floats right by most viewers' conscious minds and settles deeper, where archetypes hold sway.



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Art will have Its way with Joss. We'll get more Firefly. He may be feelin' a little whipped right now; but, Firefly's not finished, and it won't leave him be until it is. That's my prediction.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 3, 2006 3:24 AM

MRBEN


Bear in mind that Zoe doesn't just use her gun for shooting - she quite often uses the large trigger guard to add a bit of force to her punch (for instance, in the bar brawl in The Train Job).

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
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Friday, March 3, 2006 4:49 AM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
asarian:

These are the topics I really enjoy. I think the richness of meaning within each episode typifies Joss' and his Mutant Enemy co-writers' brilliance. I believe it is this virtuosity in adult storytelling that sets Firefly apart from any other show on television -- ever -- including those Joss has previously created.

Believing in Fate as I do, I believe Joss was born to tell Malcolm Reynold's story. Art springs from the Implicate Order of the universe; It seeks and finds Its vessel to realize Itself. Anyone who has performed artistically has felt the power flow through them as Art expresses itself. When an artist practices or hones their skills, it is only so that they may become a more suitable conduit through which Art may flow...

I know that sounds a bit outre, but believe me, them's the facts.

And here's a little something to chew on:
Mal frequently doesn't know why he makes the choices he does. As Fanty said (or was it Mingo?), he runs when he ought to fight, fights when he ought to deal; he cradles a girl who's just gone apesh*t on an entire barroom and takes her back aboard his ship.

We all know that part of it. But here's the interesting bit: When Mal tells Book about the incident, he questions his own motivations for doing so, figuring that abandoning the Tams would've been the smart play. Book says, "That's not your way, Mal". Mal says, "So I've got a 'way'? Is that better than a plan?"

The word 'tao' means 'way' or 'path' (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao). According to Chinese philosophy, 'Tao' is definitely better than a plan. Mal, who is at odds with God, is talking to a man of God, who is convinced that Mal has a tao, and Mal fancies the notion.

This subtle interplay of words and juxtaposition of archetypal characters -- the apostate and the preacher -- is, again, sheer genius. And the really cool part, to me, is that it probably floats right by most viewers' conscious minds and settles deeper, where archetypes hold sway.



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Art will have Its way with Joss. We'll get more Firefly. He may be feelin' a little whipped right now; but, Firefly's not finished, and it won't leave him be until it is. That's my prediction.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'



Zoid,

You have a way of saying what we all know in our soul right out there for us all to see. I think I knew every one of those things ( it was archetype and deep down I knew it) without recognizing it at the forefront of my mind.

Did I mention I love it when you post because I know I'm going to be enlightened and that I'm proud to know you? There... I just did.

Thank you.

And I agree about Joss not being done. This thing flowed into him, it's not done with him yet.
It's flowed into all of us too, very powerfully, and it's not done with us yet either.

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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Friday, March 3, 2006 7:13 AM

ZOID


FollowMal wrote:
Quote:

...And I agree about Joss not being done. This thing flowed into him, it's not done with him yet.
It's flowed into all of us too, very powerfully, and it's not done with us yet either.


First, thank you for your kind regards. I'm flattered, and that's something I've never been very good at dealing with. Thank you most kindly.

As to the quoted text: Let's just hope and pray that Joss doesn't 'lose his instrument' in the meantime. Hollywood is a Siren, singing her irresistible song on a reef made up of the bones of artists. 'Come', she croons, 'I will make you famous, rich, powerful.'

Many refuse to bend to the whims of Hollywood, insisting on telling their own stories in their own way, and are banished, silenced. Others yield to temptation and bow to The Dollar, producing either formulaic crap or idealistic (whatever topic is hot on the minds of the media) pap. Either way, fail or succeed, we thus lose the artist and the Art. Aaaahhh-choo! *George Lucas* Sniffle... Excuse me. Must've gotten something stuck up my nose, there.

It takes a rare person to succeed in Hollywood without losing everything that they are in the process. So, I'm praying for Joss not to lose his soul, whether he likes it or not. Human beings, lovers of Art, need him to remain intact.

If you're not keen on the notion of one true God, you could always dance naked around a fire, flowers braided in your hair, and sing the names of the Nine Muses. I don't mind.

I think JW's been in a ménage à trois with Melpomene and Thalia for years. I've always been partial to Erato (and she to me).



Mythically,

zoid

P.S.
According to Greek mythology, the Sirens were born of Terpsichore, the Muse of dance and music (dramatic chorus). You gotta be careful what you pray for in Hollywood, and who you pray to...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 3, 2006 7:55 AM

FLAUTISTFIRST


At the risk of disrupting anyone's muses, I too am going to say that I've enjoyed zoid's musings on the topic.

I just love this kind of conversation.

And I also agree with the interpretation of Wash/Zoe and loyalty to Mal. I also admit to instictively understanding the "So I have a way" scene, but not to knowing about tao. Cool to have it revealed.




There's no place I can be since I found serenity.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 8:09 AM

SICKDUDE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Which forces me to reiterate: What kind of hell did Mal rescue Zoe from, to engender loyalty that deep and lasting? Oh, sure, the easy answer is "The Battle of Serenity"; but what specifically happened that ripped these two people in half and then grafted them together at the soul?



Yeah, what you said! In "The Message" we meet another happy survivor of Serenity. And yet there is no connection/comraderie like between Zoe and Mal.

"It's a cow."

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Friday, March 3, 2006 8:29 AM

MAL4PREZ


Interesting posts ... I had my own opinions to add but then y'all covered it for me.

One bad thing though - I've been in a place of peace with Firefly, but now you're making me bitter again! I really want to see the Mal/Zoe backstory done right - not in a comic book or a few hurried movie scenes but over several seasons on TV!

Bad bitterness, bad, bad!

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Friday, March 3, 2006 9:00 AM

CBY


Quote:

Originally posted by tmurrie:
I think she would have pulled her gun on anyone who pulled their gun first. [...] I think she would make sure nothing happened, no matter who was the aggressor



I'll go with this one. Seems perfectly Zoe to me.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 9:04 AM

ZOID


Sickdude:

I don't think Tracey was at Serenity Valley. He got wounded at Du-Khang (Disk 4, "The Message", Scene 3). Some sort of leg wound that required Mal to carry him ("You know the old saying..."). I always assumed it got him released from military duty, a so-called 'million dollar wound'.

Even so, Tracey exhibited some classic symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. And vets aren't the only ones who get it, either... (See also http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/facts/general/fs_what_is_ptsd.html)

Think about Kaylee's physical reaction to the video of the "Research & Rescue" woman getting raped/eaten/eviscerated on Miranda (Scene 14 on the DVD). Inara cries, River vomits. Kaylee stands stock still, arms hugged across her breasts as though she is standing naked, hand over her mouth, fingers trembling, then slowly turns away. The look in her eyes... The others are horrified, Kaylee identifies. That's all about her experience with Early, imo. ...And maybe that was all about something more substantive that happened at an even earlier time in her life (pointed choice of words intended). When Early asks her if she's ever been raped, she never denies it (Disk 4, "Objects In Space", Scene 6). When Jubal takes control of her, I get the distinct impression she's familiar with the drill. And I think Jubal sensed that about her.

Kaylee's reaction in Serenity... Have I called Joss a genius too many times?



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Maybe that's the secret of the 'verse, hmmm? Everybody's got PTSD, with the possible exceptions of Wash and Simon, who frequently seem confused as to the actions and motivations of the others... *discards the notion as too simplistic*
_________________________________________________

"...It's the real world I couldn't survive." -Tracey, Firefly, "The Message"

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Friday, March 3, 2006 9:10 AM

CBY


[nothing here]

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Friday, March 3, 2006 10:00 AM

RAE


"Second example: In "War Stories", Zoe immediately chooses Wash over Mal. First glance says that she unhesitatingly values Wash over Mal, right"


I had a completely different take on this...Zoe is Mal's second in command. As such, it is her JOB to rescue any of the crew first. She knows Mal is tough. He will survive, and it is her job to get the rest of the team out first. She would have made the same choice if it had been any other team member. That's exactly the decision Mal would have expected her to make.

Rae

PS...I also think she had every intention of going back for Mal, even if she had to do it alone. But, it would be much easier to rescue Mal than it would have been to rescue Wash. Mal would probably be able to help more with his own rescue than Wash would be. I also don't think she had any doubts about the rest of the crew coming with her to rescue her. It's what family does.

No power in the 'verse can stop me!

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Friday, March 3, 2006 10:12 AM

ZOID


Rae wrote:
Quote:

...I had a completely different take on this...

Looks like the same take I outlined in the sentences that followed. So, I guess I'm saying I agree with your conclusions...



v/r,
-zed

"Gravity's Earth norm." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, upon landing on Miranda

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Friday, March 3, 2006 10:16 AM

MAL4PREZ


The other thing - on his way out, Wash looked back at Mal and Mal shook his head, like he was saying shut up and go with the plan. Zoe and Mal seemed to have their usual unspoken understanding of the situation, and of the best stragedy for dealing with it.

So I dont see that scene as Zoe picking Wash over Mal in the absolute sense. She knew the best chance of getting them both out was to take Wash, because Mal was more likely to survive longer.

My .02

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Friday, March 3, 2006 10:55 AM

ZEEK


I can't believe no one has questioned the unfailing loyalty of robot Zoe. I think that is far from the truth of the matter. Zoe has very strong loyalty, but she's no robot. She has her own opinions and only follows the captain when the two agree or she's too unsure to make a solid stand. Sure there are many examples of her following orders. There are also examples of her taking her own initiative even against what Mal wants.

During Shindig Mal makes a rude joke to Kaylee and Zoe takes whatever bag Mal is carrying and ditches him. They were obviously all moving as a group to some destination and she changed the plans on her own.

During Out of Gas the captain made the plan to send the shuttles in opposite directions to go with the best odds of rescue. She changed Mal's plan on her own and turned back. Sure she saved Mal's life but she also disobeyed orders. And before the coma argument pops up, I'm sure that the military has some sort of rules about orders that are communicated through an intermediary still are orders from a superior. I could be wrong on that though.

During War Stories Wash changes the startup sequence for the extra shuttle. Mal tells Wash that he's not going on the mission. Zoe comes over Mal's head and tells him to let it go. Seems rather insubordinate to me.

Even though there are plenty of good points from the series to consider, we have to think that it's been 6 months in verse time between the series and the movie. Joss changes characters by leaps and bounds in 6 months. I think in Serenity it's supposed to hit us pretty hard that Zoe is questioning Mal to the point of drawing a gun on him. That's supposed to be a large neon light telling us that times have gotten so tough the past few months that even Zoe is really questioning Mal's every decision. I took that little holster draw bit to be a really powerful scene to the fans who pay close enough attention.

As was pointed out, Simon was unarmed (I'd have to go rewatch to be sure) and on his back at the time. That doesn't seem like the situation where Mal is in any danger. There's no reason she would need to draw on Simon.

Edit: Forgot one other Zoe changing the plans moment. This one from the BDM itself. Mal says for everyone to get inside the blast doors and seal them and wait for him to come back. She flat out rejects his plan and tells him they are going to make a stand where they are. Lead the reavers in and finish it. Once again Zoe shows that she doesn't straight up follow orders from Mal.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 11:27 AM

ZOID


mal4prez:

Hmmm... Maybe I did a bad job of explaining 'Zoe's Choice'.

Throughout the episode leading up to her choice, we see Zoe and Wash arguing about his perception that she is more loyal to Mal than to him ("No, what this marriage needs is one less husband. (beat) Right now it's kind of crowded."). After they are captured, throughout the torture, Mal and Wash carry on a heated debate on the same topic ("I mean, I'm the one she swore to love, honor and obey!"; "She swore to obey?"; "Well, no. Not... But that's my point! You she obeys! She obeys you! There's obeying happening right under my nose.").

When Zoe comes in and chooses Wash before Niska can even fully ask the question ("I'm sorry. You were going to ask me to choose, right? Didja wanna finish?")...

I experienced a moment of "Yes! She chose her husband!" The way the scene was paced (i.e., her preempting Niska's question), all the argument that prededed, created that moment in a way that precluded on-the-spot analysis, for me; but I may be slower than others. In any case, I think Joss (or Cheryl Cain, who wrote the ep) intended to get that reaction, and it worked on me.

It is not until Wash and Zoe get back to the shuttle and she says, "He'll make it last as long as possible. Days, if he can," that it becomes clear on first viewing that her choice of Wash wasn't a choice at all, but rather the opening gambit of a plan of attack.

Just call me too thick to have understood that before she subtly revealed she was planning on rescuing Mal later. Y'all picked it up even as she told Niska, "Him," (pointing at Wash). That's a pretty good catch, if y'all ain't cheating by evaluating it in hindsight...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Friday, March 3, 2006 11:59 AM

MAL4PREZ


Hey Zoid -

I feel like we generally agree, just have different timing of the moment of understanding. Dong ma?

We agree a lot, actually, because I had the same reaction at first when Zoe picked Wash (well, my reaction the first time I saw it was more along the lines of: Joss I love you for setting up this agonizing tramautic decision that on any other show would drag on with many a cry of woe from the poor set-upon woman, but on FF it's done wham bang! and she's tough as nails...)

whoa - taken by a moment of Joss worship, where was I? oh yeah - I also thought hmm, interesting that Zoe picked Wash so easily, there will be fallout. But when Mal shook his head at Wash, clearly agreeing with her choice and not upset over it, I started thinking she was being practical. Thinking about more than who do I love more? Especially as Wash barely made it through the early stages of the torture which Mal could take. In hindsight the choice was clear.

I must admit, having watched the episode so many times, it's hard to be free of hindsight...

So we basically agree, you think?

Zeek - I'm also pondering your points. Zoe is clearly not stupid, and she's always ready to offer Mal a differing opinion. But, in the series at least, she does it without ever being disloyal or really crossing him. By the movie he's certainly gotten darker and I can see her second guessing him on a deeper level, but insisting on fighting in the hall instead of getting behind the blast doors was more of a tactical thing. Arguing tactics doesn't imply disloyalty.

I still haven't decided who she must have been drawing the gun on in the BDM. I always thought of it as an instinctual reaction. Just Joss showing how tense everyone was. It never occurred to me that she might be drawing on anyone in particular. I must watch that scene again tonight.

Good thread octogen!

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Friday, March 3, 2006 12:15 PM

ZOID


mal4prez wrote:
Quote:

...I still haven't decided who she must have been drawing the gun on in the BDM. I always thought of it as an instinctual reaction. Just Joss showing how tense everyone was. It never occurred to me that she might be drawing on anyone in particular. I must watch that scene again tonight.

Good thread octogen!


Watch it with JW's commentary turned on. I just passed that very scene (yes, I'm watching it even as a write these words), and JW states that everybody's reaction is carefully scripted, mentioning Zoe touching her weapon, and saying she does so "just in case there's trouble". So, not exactly a definitive answer, in terms of 'trouble from whom?'.

...But Joss clearly had something very definitive in mind, else why were the physical reactions carefully scripted?



v/r,
-zed

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Friday, March 3, 2006 12:24 PM

MAL4PREZ


I do remember that from the commentary, now that you mention it... will watch again. (Any excuse is enough)

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Friday, March 3, 2006 12:35 PM

ZEEK


I wonder if there is more explination in the novel. If that action is in there I wouldn't be surprised if there was some detail written in about what Zoe is thinking. I never bought the novel myself. Anyone who has it care to take a gander for us?

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Friday, March 3, 2006 1:01 PM

ZOID


Zeek:

The scene occurs on pages 121 - 125, and no mention of Zoe touching her gun, or her motivations for doing so.

In any case, Joss has distanced himself -- gently -- from KRAD's novelization, saying any motivations or internal dialogue Keith ascribed to the characters were strictly from Keith's imagination. Joss went on to say that motivations would only be canonical if he wrote the novel himself, and that he didn't have that kind of time.

Just saying.



v/r,
-zed

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Friday, March 3, 2006 1:34 PM

SECURITYSIX


I agree that Simon was pretty much guaranteed to lose that fight and Zoe was most likely going to wind up getting Mal to back down if she had to draw.

As wierd as this is going to sound, I'm going to say it: Mal is not a fighter*. As much as Mal is not a fighter, Simon is less of one. There's no way Simon was going to win that fight without River being in immediate mortal danger, which isn't a problem because River is the one person on the boat that Mal would hesitate to kill, regardless of circumstances.

* Mal can fight, yes, but he's not a fighter. Mal gets beat up a lot and comes too close to losing too many fights to be a fighter. What Mal is, is a leader. People follow him because he won't ask them to do anything he won't do himself if he's capable of it.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 1:46 PM

SICKDUDE


Zoid:
Along with everyone else, I gotta say I'm enjoying this discussion, too.

In regards to Tracey, good point. D'oh! Anyway, I was just attempting to reinforce your point about the strange degree of Zoe's uber-loyalty.

Regarding Kaylee and PTSD, wow! Interesting! As a side note, I love to watch Mal at the end of the recording and the way it is shot. It looks like he's turning and walking towards the woman to comfort them, and then he justs walks by...

As to Zoe's reactions in "War Stories", well, "I'm not disagreeing on any particular point". (Poor reaver-ised quote) However, in a sense, it actually backs up the theory that she's drawing on Mal. (Stretch coming) Consistently, we see Zoe act... perfectly. She responds to every tactical situation absolutely dead-on, she's always level-headed, she doesn't waste movement, and she thinks everything through. It throws a blanket over the theory that she's going for her gun to help out Mal who obviously doesn't need it, or just out of reflexes. Neither course sounds much like her. She only reaches for the gun exactly when it is needed...

Sorry, but I am still not swayed. Like Zeek says, I think it's done to show the beginnings of her questioning Mal.

"It's a cow."

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Friday, March 3, 2006 3:15 PM

ZOID


Sickdude:

Well, y'all have certainly made me reconsider my first impression of the scene. The only overriding objection I have to 'Zoe was going to draw on Mal' is my conviction that she could never disobey Mal or allow him to be harmed. I think she owes him a 'life debt', in a socioreligiously significant way from her birth culture's viewpoint. It's not that she can't disagree with him, but that ultimately she must obey and protect him. But, that's just my gut feeling, I could be totally wrong.

On a side note: Those rewatching the BDM (like me, as I wait for part 1 of the BSG season finale at 9PM local), be sure and pause the playback when the Op is reviewing Mal's file. On the second screen, regarding Mal's war record, it lists him as "Captain, Independent Army, 57th Brigade".

Captain, not Sergeant. My guess is that it was a "battlefield commission". But it certainly clarifies a few things in my mind, and negates Badger's evaluation of Mal somewhat (presuming it's not a 'movie goof').

Damn. I want to hear the entire story of The Battle of Serenity Valley in the worst possible way...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
..And Jayne drinks liquor from his little cup with a Chinese dragon on it... It's the details that captivate me.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, March 6, 2006 6:12 AM

MAL4PREZ


I watched this scene over the weekend, with and without commentary. Here's my take...

On the commentary, Joss is talking about how he kept Simon in shadow to make it clear he was the outsider at this point, and it's an eye-opener (shot of River's eyes opening) to the crew that this girl they've had on the ship for so long could be evil.

So I have to think this scene is about Simon's alienation, not Mal's. And Zoe's reaction is just Joss trying to define his characters to new viewers every chance he gets, cause there really weren't many chances in the movie. Kaylee looks scared, Wash looks concerned, Zoe's ready to fight. Just a natural reaction for each of them. I don't think Zoe was planning to go after anyone, and certainly not Mal.

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it until Joss tells me I'm wrong.

m4p


Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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