Reavers....How do they.... by IndyBlues

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Reavers....How do they....

POSTED BY: INDYBLUES
UPDATED: Thursday, March 23, 2006 07:22
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Monday, March 20, 2006 4:58 PM

Multiply?? I assume they are all male, considering all the rape and cannibalism, woman and children wouldn't last very long.

They mention in the series how they are men who went to the edge of the universe, and basically lost their minds, and the film explains their existence. I just figure they wouldn't live forever, so without women, they would die out.

Plus, without stating any spoilers, for those who may have not seen the film yet, how far back does the incident on Miranda actually happen?
The Reavers story sounded like it was told to children sort of like the Bogeyman, (which is basically timeless) in order to frighten them, from what Simon says in the pilot episode.

I have a speculation, but since I'm new to the 'verse, I'd like to hear your theorys.
'Blues

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Monday, March 20, 2006 5:08 PM

PENGUIN

In the movie Mal says that the recording is about 12 years old...That means River would have been about 5. At that point there would have been no need to multiply.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 5:17 PM

AZHEA

And Kaylee says she remembers a call for people to settle there. She must have been young though.

*************************************************
I look out for me and mine... that don't include you 'lessen I conjure it does.

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Monday, March 20, 2006 5:36 PM

THEPISTONENGINE

Just thinking about the whole timeline...

Remember the beginning of Safe, where River is pretending to be part of a Alliance platoon attacked by browncoats, that must have been at least ten years before Serenity the episode. That means the war must have lasted at least four years. Add another two-three years, and that'd put the Miranda incident around the time of the war. No wonder it never made the newswaves.

That being said, there isn't enough time for Reavers to die out. My favorite theory about Reaver multiplication is the theory offered by Mal in Bushwhacked.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Monday, March 20, 2006 5:49 PM

ZAKNRFAMA

The women would last. Reavers aren't stupid, they're just insane and extremely violent. They might abuse some women, but I think there'd still be a very fair amount of them, and they wouldn't eat their own young.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:00 AM

INDYBLUES

Quote:
Originally posted by Zaknrfama:
The women would last. Reavers aren't stupid, they're just insane and extremely violent. They might abuse some women, but I think there'd still be a very fair amount of them, and they wouldn't eat their own young.

Well, no one knows for sure if there ARE women, and if they would or wouldn't eat the young.
They seem to kill anything weaker than them,..true survival of the fittest.

I agree with THEPISTONENGINE, that they basically torture all but one in a group, and leave a survivor,..basically making them a new recruit.

Although, I wonder,....do they try and come back to get the survivor, or does the survivor make it back to them somehow??

This is turning quite interesting.
'Blues

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:27 AM

ROB150185

If the population of Miranda was 30 million, then there would have been originally about thirty-thousand Reavers. Add twelve years to that.....

I'll be in my bunk...

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:48 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by ThePistonEngine:
That being said, there isn't enough time for Reavers to die out. My favorite theory about Reaver multiplication is the theory offered by Mal in Bushwhacked.

I agree w/ ThePistonEngine. I think Mal had the right of it in that some people who are left alive by the Reavers when they attack can not help but become Reavers themselves when they witness the carnage & brutality of such an assault. Perhaps Reavers can tell which victims have the weakest will and leave them alive to watch so they become Reavers. Could be this is how they grow their numbers.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:49 AM

ARCADIA

Quote:
Originally posted by IndyBlues:
Well, no one knows for sure if there ARE women, and if they would or wouldn't eat the young.
They seem to kill anything weaker than them,..true survival of the fittest.
/B]

Well... wouldn't Reaver women be just a crazy and violent as Reaver man? One of the reasons women "weaker" than men is because society conditions them to be passive -- at least, treditionally; this is changing. Now, assuming either that a) the influence of PAX would dominate over social conditioning, or b) that society doesn't condition women to necessarily be passive (thus, producing awsome warrior women like Zoe), it seems likely to me that somewhere, there are reaver women, they have not all be killed off Darwinian style.

I agree with Zaknrfama. They might beat each toher up (women and men) and they might abuse their kids (possibly to the point that they don't cry when the weaker ones die), but they are a functioning society with enough intelligence to fly ships, navigate ships, and (hardest of all) land ships without dying (even if their flying is semi-suicidal). They probably just keep their kids on the ships in Reaver territory, waiting for them to come of age, or something.

Also, since many people seem curious about the timeline, I sumbulled acorss this ( http://snipurl.com/nwzo) when I was doing research for a fanfic. It is speculative, but very thoughtfully put together. I found it very helpful.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Objects in Space"
River: It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think...

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:09 AM

INDYBLUES

Yes, I believe Reaver women would be just as, if not MORE, violent and crazy as the Reaver men.
I'm just saying that the men "might"(choosing words carefully) overpower the women, by numbers, not by being better or stronger.

I don't want to turn this into a ERA debate. Firefly has plenty of strong, intelligent, and powerful women, onboard Serentity, and even more that the crew meet in their travels.

I'm talking about Reavers. More than once in the series it is stated that they are "men".
They rape, kill, and sew pieces of your skin into their clothing(hopefully in that order),
so violating(I hate the word rape) various women for procreation, seems against their ways.

The timeline clears it up that they aren't dying out anytime soon, I just wasn't certain on "when" they were created.

So, is it a given, that the way they increase their ranks, is the way it is explained (and shown) in "Bushwacked"?
Seems the best explaination to me, so far, and kind of what I figured at the start of this thread.

However, I am always open to newer and better options.
'Blues

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:36 AM

ARCADIA

Quote:
Originally posted by IndyBlues:
I don't want to turn this into a ERA debate.

Neither to I. :-)

Quote:

I'm talking about Reavers. More than once in the series it is stated that they are "men".
They rape, kill, and sew pieces of your skin into their clothing(hopefully in that order),
so violating(I hate the word rape) various women for procreation, seems against their ways.

Yes, but they could be refeering to reavers as men in the, 'men = universal = men and women" sort of way (which I guess you get, judging from the quotes). If they reproduce sexually, it really wouldn't be "rape" so much as reaver-sex, whcih is also pretty disturbing, but, hey, that's how its done. I didn't mean to imply that they would rape non-reaver women in order to preproduce.

Now that I think about it, though, reavers are really just people altered by Pax, so I don't know if they would just produce normal babies that they would then socialize into reavers, or if they would produce reaver babies. Or, if the Pax does mutate them genetically, then it's also possible that they can't reproduce biologically.

So, I guess the bushwacked method is looking more and more likely. The problem is, do reavers do this intetionally? Do they have a method of retrieving new reavers? etc.

What a complicated issue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Objects in Space"
River: It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think...

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:46 AM

INDYBLUES

Quote:
"What a complicated issue"

Glad I could help

Seriously, I love digging to the root of all these ideas. I love this show, and I also love how thought provoking it is,....probably why it was cancelled. You know how corporate HATES independant thought,.....Independant....Hmmm
I think I'm onto sonething here,...or ON something, lol.
'Blues

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:01 AM

REAVERMAN

I dont think the reavers reproduce at all except for the occaisional convert like in Bushwhacked. Even if they had females, the constant radiation exposure from their uncontained reactors would sterilize them.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:37 AM

THUNDER

It was explaned in the series

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:46 AM

NATEM

I always sort of pictured their society like the orcs/goblins in Lord of the Rings. They were constantly fighting with each other and were pretty savage as well. Also orcs were originally elves I think so the mutation fits. I don't know if it was ever explained how orcs reproduced though.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:41 PM

INDYBLUES

Quote:
Originally posted by Thunder:
It was explaned in the series

It was?!? Cool, please point the way, so I can see this explaination.
'Blues

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:58 PM

SHINYFAB

Based on what occurred on Miranda, I don't think Pax discriminates between male & female. There have to be Reaver women. I don't think there can be a real distinction between male and female because of the way they desecrate themselves. In the same vein, I have to think there were also young children who would have been affected. 30,000 people is quite a bit and also based on the movie, it doesn't appear they attack those they consider one of them. Because of the radiation, most Reavers are probably sterile and I think they will eventually die out as the younger generation gets to old age. The Reavers, however, seem to be unopposed for the most part when they attack since they take people by surprise and may well live to be quite old before they start to decline. As far as the Reaver violation of a non-Reaver, without getting too graphic, there are a lot of ways to do it. And aside from the survivor found in Bushwacked, how many people have been able to explain what really happened when Reavers attack? The survivor in Bushwacked wasn't sane enough to give details beyond nightmarish ramblings. I wanted to get specific from the movie, but I noticed heavy spoilers were being avoided so I'll stop here.

Bwah!

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:09 AM

THUNDER

It was in the second episode were they find the ship drifting. Mal said that they make a few poeple watch what the do & it makes them crazy

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:04 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinyfab:
Based on what occurred on Miranda, I don't think Pax discriminates between male & female. There have to be Reaver women. I don't think there can be a real distinction between male and female because of the way they desecrate themselves. In the same vein, I have to think there were also young children who would have been affected.

Perhaps it has something to do w/ testostorone & the inherent aggressiveness of the human male. Could be that women & children were not affected.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:19 AM

TANKIN

Well when humanity refers to anything human, we sexistly use the male gender. "Man-Kind", etc. Not too mention that people may just assume they're 'men' given that no one really survives an encounter with them. If anyone has seen the Serenity movie, the first reaver you see in that movie is female, so there are definitely female reavers. Chances are the reavers have created their own little sadistic society, a society that I wouldn't really want to imagine the basis on...I also believe that if you get the timeline right, the incident on Miranda happened just before the war, not during it. Perhaps at the inception of the Alliance's dominative ideals? I wouldn't really want to imagine those sadistic things breeding...But the way they were created (sorry for spoiling this for any that haven't seen the movie yet) signifies that the reavers acted the exact opposite to what the drug-thingy was intended to do. Instead of being compliant, they rape, pillage, and murder everything they say. So chances are they each other a lot...That's a dirty, scarey thought. >< Sorry I've regurgitated a few other peoples posts, I'm writing this *as* I read the post hehe. :) So it's possible they both breed and turn people into reavers. Oh and do fix that maths equation, there'd be 300,000reavers minimum. She said 1/10 of the population, 10% of 30million would be 300,000. That's one deadly society...Especially if they figure out how to multiply...Now with such a powerful threat, one wonders why the hell the Alliance haven't dealt with them?

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:05 AM

SHINYFAB

Sorry . . . I'm terrible with math. 300,000 is a lot of people. That many can last a long time whether or not they can reproduce. But that is a good question. This is a large group which is very dangerous. Why wouldn't the Alliance try to do something? Perhaps the Reavers are too far from the core planets for them to care right away. And the Alliance can't patrol the large amount of planets they have at the moment, so maybe they don't have the resources to handle the threat to begin with?

Bwah!

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:17 AM

ZISKER

Durn good question - I'll have to go with the 'Bushwhacked' Theory.

And, as I woman, I have no 'ERA' issues with women not being Reavers. They're Reavers. I'd like to think my gender is above that

If Joss Whedon saw them all as male, that's fine by me (which, it seems from the Serenity Visual Companion, he might have - I couldn't find any Reavers that appeared female)

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:23 AM

CEDRIC

After I watched the movie, I started thinking about this question. I have no specific evidence for this theory, but I think it makes a certain amount of sense. So here's my speculation:

On some raids, the Reavers use PAX as a weapon. It makes some of the crew lie down, and it makes the others as crazy and dangerous as the Reavers themselves. In that way, they grow and recruit new members.

I also theorize that the PAX has an anti-radiation side effect--how else would the Reavers have survived so long without core containment?

Anyway, I like speculating.

Cedric

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:16 AM

INDYBLUES

Quote:
Now with such a powerful threat, one wonders why the hell the Alliance haven't dealt with them?

I think that's a great question, and I think the answers are:

A. They are way too horrible to try and deal with, especially with the numbers they would face. The Reavers have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, so they will stop at nOTHING in a battle.

B. What better way to keep prying eyes away from Miranda, and finding anything out about the atrocities there.

'Blues

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:50 AM

ASDF

Not to be pedantic, but 10% of 30 million is 3 million... That's a whole lot of reavers

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:59 AM

RABBIT2

I had a rather horrible thought about this subject recently.
Since nobody survives a Reaver attack then nobody knows for certain what happens to the children they capture.
Perhaps they only murder, kill and abuse adults, the children are for the most part carried off in order to be turned in to a new generation of Reavers , rather as the man in `Bushwhacked` was.
Just what was the cause of the screaming over the radio that we heard in the movie?

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:05 AM

STARRBABY

Quote:
Originally posted by IndyBlues:
Quote:
Now with such a powerful threat, one wonders why the hell the Alliance haven't dealt with them?

I think that's a great question, and I think the answers are:

A. They are way too horrible to try and deal with, especially with the numbers they would face. The Reavers have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, so they will stop at nOTHING in a battle.

B. What better way to keep prying eyes away from Miranda, and finding anything out about the atrocities there.

'Blues

My idea is that the Alliance was in the process of creating an army to battle the reavers. They didn't want anyone to know about Miranda, though, so they convinced the families of the brightest and best to send them to an "academy" where the programed them to kick reaver ass.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:36 AM

RABBIT2

Quote:
My idea is that the Alliance was in the process of creating an army to battle the reavers. They didn't want anyone to know about Miranda, though, so they convinced the families of the brightest and best to send them to an "academy" where the programed them to kick reaver ass

They probably had something like this in mind, at least in a general way and they are probably also assuming that the Reavers are so insanely aggressive they will have largely wiped themselves out in a few years.

They are also totally wrong.

What has probably been happening is that a warped Reaver culture has been developing in those ship hulks orbiting Miranda over the last twelve years and their population is actually increasing.
So far they have been sending out small raiding parties of `Warrior` Reavers to attack isolated colonies for additional recruits they can `Reaverise` and anything else they can use.
But once they are ready they probably plan a more general assault on more populated worlds.

Remember, If the Firefly version of the future is drawing on 19th century US history then the next conflict that takes place after the Civil War is the Indian Wars.

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:14 PM

INDYBLUES

They may also know, in some way, that the Alliance is responsible for their madness, and as stated above, were waiting for that day for a grand assault. Payback,......it's a bitch!
'Blues

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:31 PM

RABBIT2

Yes, and add to that most of the prisoners they take probably have `Independant` sympathies.
So any `Stockholm Syndrome` Reavers likely dont like the Alliance much either.

--------------------------------------------------

Flight Instructor: Son, know what the first rule of flying is?
Me: Don`t crash?

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:34 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by asdf:
Not to be pedantic, but 10% of 30 million is 3 million... That's a whole lot of reavers

Actually, in the movie, the woman on the recording said 1/10th of a percent, which does come out to 30,000 reavers.

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:03 AM

THUNDER

The episode where they tell how reaver's were made is Bushwacked

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:34 AM

SERENITYFOREVER

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:
On some raids, the Reavers use PAX as a weapon. It makes some of the crew lie down, and it makes the others as crazy and dangerous as the Reavers themselves. In that way, they grow and recruit new members.

I also theorize that the PAX has an anti-radiation side effect--how else would the Reavers have survived so long without core containment?

Oh, that's good. That's really good. Maybe they had access to compressed gas cylinders full of PAX. It nebulizes the PAX (similar to an asthma inhaler), and then they inject it into a raided vessel's air supply before they board it. That would explain Bushwhacked. It would also explain why the one survivor in Bushwhacked went Reaver, and how nobody ever seems to survive a Reaver attack.

Maybe the PAX is volatile, and has a short half-life when exposed to atmospheric temperature or chemistry - if it's not assimilated into tissue, it decomposes within a few days, which would explain why none of the crew of Serenity were affected in Bushwhacked or when they landed on Miranda.

Somebody get Joss on the phone. I think we've just come up with a new fan wank.

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:22 AM

CEDRIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SerenityForever:

Maybe the PAX is volatile, and has a short half-life when exposed to atmospheric temperature or chemistry - if it's not assimilated into tissue, it decomposes within a few days, which would explain why none of the crew of Serenity were affected in Bushwhacked or when they landed on Miranda.

Somebody get Joss on the phone. I think we've just come up with a new fan wank.

That makes a lot of sense--it's fast acting but breaks down quickly in the atmosphere. I like it.

And if you can get Joss Whedon on the phone, you're my hero.

Cedric

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

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