GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

2 Questions

POSTED BY: FUTUREMRSFILLION
UPDATED: Saturday, August 5, 2006 17:14
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Friday, August 4, 2006 4:52 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Am watching Serenity and as always I see things I didn't see before.

Question 1 - What is the Operatives motivation for killing the Doctor? He doesn't know the secret. Is it punishment for allowing River to escape? Putting her in a room with members of Parliment? Because he has seen the Operative?

Question 2 - When River "see's" the Reavers - why does she see herself as a Reaver.

Just opening it up to theories.



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Friday, August 4, 2006 5:11 PM

TRAVELER


If the doctor made one mistake he probably has and probably will make more. So get rid of him.

The second question: You know I'm going to have to watch the movie again and pay more attention. I didn't even notice that.

You guys are always finding ways to trick me into watching these shows over and over again. Have you no shame?

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Friday, August 4, 2006 5:15 PM

NANITE1018


You know, i noticed the second one too. I think the answer to the first was really just the Operative putting Mathias down, as he said "would you rather be killed in your sleep like an ailing pet?" Mathias was going to be killed anyway, the Operative just killed him in a way he thought more noble.

As to the second, i have no idea. Maybe because she got a dose of the Pas? Probably not, but maybe. Maybe it's just her pushing her distrust of herself onto some external entity, in this case the Reavers. They are evil and terrifying, and she may be terrified of herself as well.

I think that was some good bs psychoanalysis right there!

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Friday, August 4, 2006 5:54 PM

STAKETHELURK


Question 1: The Operative probably killed the doctor because he was ordered to--the Operative always does what he’s ordered to on faith that it’s all done to make “better worlds.” As Nanite1018 suggests, the Op simply went about it in a fashion that fits his own bizarre code. It would be far more honorable for Dr. Mathias to take his own life than to merely be assassinated, so the Op puts him in a position where he can’t help but fall on his sword. If people won’t fit into his perfect system of honorable conduct, he makes them fit in for their own good--it’s the Alliance in a nutshell.

Question 2: As for River’s connection to the Reavers, there’s actually a lot thematically to tie them together in the film. Both were innocents warped by the Alliance and its good intentions, both are out of Alliance control. River can lash out with mindless violence, as we see in the Maidenhead, much like Reavers do (although without the underlying rage). In her vision-dream of Miranda, when the rest of the class lies down to die, she refuses. She doesn’t lie down. She’s the reaver of the group. Reavers are often described as insane--and the same term is applied to River. And then there’s the similarity between the two names, River and Reaver. I think we are meant to draw some parallels between them, and River--being a genius and all--can probably see the parallels herself. She’s probably afraid that she could turn into one, be irrevocably lost. Become the “weapon” rather than the “girl.” But at the end of the movie, she is able to use her violent abilities while retaining her humanity--and killing Reavers, no less, symbols of her inner fear. By defeating them, she conquers her violent side, shows that she is more than just a “weapon” without rejecting the martial skills she’s acquired.

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Friday, August 4, 2006 6:02 PM

NANITE1018


Stakethelurk, that was an AWESOME answer! I feel like that is EXACTLY what it actually is. Haha, thanks!

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Friday, August 4, 2006 8:25 PM

ZZETTA13


IMO the answer to question 1 has been answered pretty good by the above posts. I would like to add my own thoughts to the mix though. I think the writters of Serenity wanted to create the equation,absotute power = pure evil. Any group or groups of ppl that have that much control over things in order to keep that power will eventualy turn to evil. Therefore the closer an individual is to that power the more evil they are. The operative was close enough the to the powers that be in the verse that he was unable to see the evil they want him to do to help them keep that control.

This allowed him to kill without feeling or emotion. Remember the hands of blue are the same kind of instruments that are used by the powers in the verse. I have a feeling River was on the menu of becoming another instrument of the powers that be. She was to become a tool. A tool to do their bidding. Once she became renegade she was close enough to know certain secrets. So that powers wanted her dead at all cost.

Even though at the end of Serenity all seems to be well. I think it is not and River is still a target.

As for River seeing herself as a reaver. It goes back to the old nightmare of a person becoming themselves what they fear the most.

Z

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Friday, August 4, 2006 9:54 PM

MAGDALENA

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"


Hmmmmm... I just accepted both those things on the following reasoning, it's nice to be asked to ponder it for a while...

I initially thought the murder of Dr Mathias was to establish The Operative as someone for whom there are no barriers to his power, in terms of he's authorised to kill - even if it's a scientist, valuable to the Alliance cause.

Now that you've made me think a little bit more I wonder if the Operative reasoned that an intelligent man might quickly figure out that a)River did read something top secret in the minds of one or some of the top Alliance members who visited, (based on the fact that it was enough for them to send the Operative to get to the bottom of it all), b) that he had displeased the Alliance and was therefor in danger of losing his position, his wealth and maybe even his life... & c) that he might decide to go after River himself and unearth the secret she was hiding. A pre-emptive strike would eliminate any risk of that actually happening. The bodyguard guys were collateral damage, but the clerk wasn't important/super-intelligent so she was 'safe' to allow to live, expecially once she'd witnessed what the Operative was prepared to do. (make any sense?)

The River/Reaver thing is how I sometimes have premonitions myself (though I want to make it clear that I am not in any way claiming to have the power River does...) I sometimes 'see' through someone elses perspective or 'feel them' in that moment. I think River has a flash of 'Reaver-ness' and therefor knows that they are at hand.

I will now return to the secure ward as it's time for my little pink pills and I might have to wear that funny jacket agin.... Oh well

"I love my Captain!"




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Saturday, August 5, 2006 2:40 AM

SPACEANJL


Point 1 - seppuku. The man screwed up, and allowed valuable property to escape. And as the Operative said "Key members of Parliament. Key. The minds behind every diplomatic, military and covert operation in the galaxy and you put them in a room with a pyschic." Big error of judgement. Wonder what else River has in her head?

Point 2 - huh? River sees herself in Dr Caron's place at one point, with the gun to her head, but I don't remember seeing her as a Reaver.

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Saturday, August 5, 2006 3:00 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Yeah, I don't remember seeing her as a reaver, either. Every Reaver she saw was quite a bit bigger than her, though one did have long dark hair. Interesting answers about that, though.

As for the Doctor being killed, it was because he had failed.
"When men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords."
He had not only exposed her to sensitive information, he had then let her escape, still holding that information in her mind. This put the position of Parlament in danger and they couldn't risk such a thing again. They destroyed all possible risks.


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Saturday, August 5, 2006 3:18 AM

ZZETTA13


Some very good points MAGDALENA and also some made by SPACEANJL.

It's been a while since I've watched the BDM so I might need to see it again and freshen up. To me Joss wanted to show the Tams (and crew of Serenity) were being sought by a very bad individual. What better way to do that than to have him excicute someone folks might feel only made a simple mistake. It makes it clear in the very beginning this guy is not playing.

One thing that the BDM did that I felt should have been done differently was the Operative should have remained a bad guy. He was turned into a regretful loathsome bulk way ot easily. They should have left in tied up on Mr. Universes world a while.

As for River's nightmares being over because she knowns what the reavers are and what they can do, well I think her nightmares are far from over. The girl knows more about the evils of parliament than she realizes.So her hauntings will continue. I figure this makes her a very unlikely candidate for the pilots chair. She may go nuts and fly Sereinty into the nearest moon. Nope bad idea to have her in the drivers seat.

btw Wahs isn't dead. I've posted my opinion of this on that other thread some time back. Joss sighned up the whole cast for the sequel. When it came time to sign the papers Joss didn't look up and say "Sorry Alan,next." Wash will be alive and well in up coming BDMs.

How do I know this is true. I gleamed it one day and the next day there was a guy walking outside of my house with a sword

PHONEIXROSE, I think the images in Rivers mind were showing her this is what she would become ( as everyone would) if the reavers weren't stopped. I do think I need to watch the BDM again though.
Z

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Saturday, August 5, 2006 4:22 AM

DQBABY76


Does anyone think that the names "River" and "Reaver" are somewhat alike? Was that supposed to clue us in earlier before we knew the secret. I wonder if this was on purpose or just pure coincidence? *pondering* hmmm...

please let me know if this is just plain ridiculous or do we have something here.

-------------------------------------------------
Shepard used to tell me...can't do something smart, do something right.
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Saturday, August 5, 2006 5:29 AM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by dqbaby76:
Does anyone think that the names "River" and "Reaver" are somewhat alike? Was that supposed to clue us in earlier before we knew the secret. I wonder if this was on purpose or just pure coincidence? *pondering* hmmm...

please let me know if this is just plain ridiculous or do we have something here.

-------------------------------------------------
Shepard used to tell me...can't do something smart, do something right.
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.




DQBAby... see StaketheLurk's post above.. I think it's not coincidence.

I've been watching Joss stuff for a span now... wheels within wheels, stories within stories.. the man is a genius.. but StaketheLurk says it best. I think he's spot on in his deductions above.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

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Saturday, August 5, 2006 6:06 AM

DQBABY76


oops... see when i dont read every post before mine. i just end up repeating stuff. thanks for the heads up. now im going to go wallow into nothingness, maybe i'll find the other half of my brain there.

-------------------------------------------------
Shepard used to tell me...can't do something smart, do something right.
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Saturday, August 5, 2006 8:36 AM

FOLLOWMAL




OH NO! Didn't tell you so you'd feel bad... told you cuz his post is cool and I agree with it.

The not readin' thing... I do it all the time.

We all do.



"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

Click here www.fireflyfans.net for info about the Serenity Summer Campaign and how you can help!


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Saturday, August 5, 2006 9:01 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Space and PR

Put the BDM in and watch the heist. When Mal is down in the vault and River is standing in the room upstairs, she "hears" the Reavers and then "sees" a flash of a Reaver - that Reaver is her.

I had to watch it over and over to make sure I wasn't crazy.


Wow - Good answers everyone!



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Saturday, August 5, 2006 10:22 AM

LISSA37


Great questions, FutureMrsFillion!

Quote:

Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
Question 1: The Operative probably killed the doctor because he was ordered to--the Operative always does what he’s ordered to on faith that it’s all done to make “better worlds.” As Nanite1018 suggests, the Op simply went about it in a fashion that fits his own bizarre code. It would be far more honorable for Dr. Mathias to take his own life than to merely be assassinated, so the Op puts him in a position where he can’t help but fall on his sword. If people won’t fit into his perfect system of honorable conduct, he makes them fit in for their own good--it’s the Alliance in a nutshell.

Question 2: As for River’s connection to the Reavers, there’s actually a lot thematically to tie them together in the film. Both were innocents warped by the Alliance and its good intentions, both are out of Alliance control. River can lash out with mindless violence, as we see in the Maidenhead, much like Reavers do (although without the underlying rage). In her vision-dream of Miranda, when the rest of the class lies down to die, she refuses. She doesn’t lie down. She’s the reaver of the group. Reavers are often described as insane--and the same term is applied to River. And then there’s the similarity between the two names, River and Reaver. I think we are meant to draw some parallels between them, and River--being a genius and all--can probably see the parallels herself. She’s probably afraid that she could turn into one, be irrevocably lost. Become the “weapon” rather than the “girl.” But at the end of the movie, she is able to use her violent abilities while retaining her humanity--and killing Reavers, no less, symbols of her inner fear. By defeating them, she conquers her violent side, shows that she is more than just a “weapon” without rejecting the martial skills she’s acquired.



Wow. Amazing! I like both answers, but I think you especially nailed the second one. I never even thought about it in that way before. In fact, I'm not even sure I really noticed River was picturing herself as a Reaver (nice observation on everyone's part in this thread). GREAT thinking with this answer!



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Saturday, August 5, 2006 5:14 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Space and PR
Put the BDM in and watch the heist. When Mal is down in the vault and River is standing in the room upstairs, she "hears" the Reavers and then "sees" a flash of a Reaver - that Reaver is her.


I don't see it. The Reaver had long black hair, but I don't think it was her. Interesting idea if it was, but if she was having a vision of them coming, she would have seen an actual Reaver who was coming, not herself. And I'll have to double-double check the scene and look at the shooting script again, but in the novelization that first Reaver she sees is described as male.

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