GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

'Safe' is ... holy crap, The Crucible.

POSTED BY: FIZZIX
UPDATED: Sunday, August 27, 2006 14:10
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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:44 AM

FIZZIX


I just realized that I'm totally creeped out by Safe now because we just covered The Crucible in American Lit... and, oddly enough, we covered crucibles in Chemistry, but, not of the strangeness there.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... yeah.... anyone here care enough about me to have read this and noticed?

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:47 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


what with not being american, i never studied american lit, could you expand a little?

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 3:02 AM

SHROUDED


I think it's more like they're puritans. The Crucible had to do with the Salem Witch Trials, where several innocent people were hanged or crushed (actually, that was one unlucky person) because of the actions of a bunch of teenage girls. I'm not rightly sure whether or not anyone WAS set on fire, actually.

Even before that, the Puritan religion believed in witches, and although they did not go to the extreme when it came to witches, they did execute someone for alleged withcraft every once in a while.

Now, if they had originally planned to set Simon on fire because of his relation with her, it'd be more like The Crucible.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 3:33 AM

MAGDALENA

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"


Yeah I care and I did see it to a degree...

It's kind of a 5 minute Crucible where people cannot lie so they suffer for being truthful and true to one another...

I studied it in high school lit and also played Abigail Williams on stage... It's a pretty intense play and of course in itself is a reflection of the hypocracy and impossible situation that many were placed in my the McCarthy Communist hunt/trials of the 1960s(?) Are you now or have you ever been a Communist...? This in a country that prides itself on showing the world what democracy is and on freedom of speech.

Good call!



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:28 AM

LISSA37


I, too, see the connections. I studied The Crucible in English this last year, in addition to studying how it really represents the McCarthy trials in history. (And, Magdalena, you may be right with the 1960s["(?)"]... I actually thought it was the 1950s, but I'm not certain. I'm going to have to look that up later in my notes or it will drive me crazy wondering... lol)

I don't think they're exactly the same... (of course nothing is)... meaning, I don't think it was meant to really follow The Crucible. But, it certainly has elements of The Crucible in it. It would be fun to sit down and really compare them sometime. (As if I'll get to that anytime soon... I'm already behind in reading for English and school hasn't even started yet... ha ha. I'll let you have fun with that one. )

By the way, Fizzix, I thought the reference to Chemistry crucibles was funny. I remember thinking about the play when we first used crucibles in Chemistry last year and wondering why the two share the same name... ??



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


fizzix - yep, i gotta agree. good call!

odds - The Crucible is a short play which most here in the US have to read for their HS Lit. class.

As stated by Answers dot com - The Crucible is a play that was written by Arthur Miller in 1952. It is based on the events surrounding the 1692 witch trials of Salem, Massachusetts. Miller wrote about the event as an allegory for McCarthyism and the Red Scare, which occurred in the United States in the 1950s. Miller was himself questioned by the House Committee on Un-American Activities in 1956.



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 12:36 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:
I just realized that I'm totally creeped out by Safe now because we just covered The Crucible in American Lit... (Snip)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... yeah.... anyone here care enough about me to have read this and noticed?



Thinking back on it (LONG time since College, and even longer since Highschool) I guess there ARE "some" parallels... The Quote is from the bible, and was used a LOT in many Christian (and Jewish) societies.

As Far as the Salem witch trials go, you have to remember that these were mostly CITY FOLKS, that got on a ship and traveled to a FAR and UNKNOWN land to live in the wilderness... Imagine being from, Say, NewYork City and then finding yourself alone (or with a small group) in The Great Northwest of the USA in the middle of the woods.. You've heard "Bigfoot" and "Sasquatch" stories all your life, and now you're wandering around (at night) where these creatures are said to live...

Point being, EVERY noise, animal scream, and Vague shape is going to be a sasquatch in your mind.

That's about what happened in Salem during the Witch Trials.. a bunch of teenaged girls, wanting a little fun and excitement in an otherwise drab and boring existence, acted out and accused people of things that scared everyone in town (Witches).. and you go to bed every night in the pitch darkness with NO ONE else for hundreds of miles around, and even those people are mostly what they think of as "Savages"...

You can see why these girls whipped up the fear in the adults as they did.

But actual "burnings" were pretty uncommon (Even though we think they were common today, they weren't).

The Diaries of some of the more notable people in Salem show that they were actually afraid to kill anyone they REALLY thought was a witch, because the witch could curse them, or change shapes and escape.. so if they REALLY thought someone was a witch, they gave them WIDE berth... they only "held trials" for those who were suspected of being ASSOCIATED with a witch (MUCH safer since the associate couldn't curse you, etc).

It's hard for us, in modern society, to wrap our minds around the thought processes of that time.. but just keep in mind they were in a strange environment, alone, and easily spooked (Same Situation as in "Safe").. add to that some general boredom and some Teenaged pranks, and you get a LITERAL meaning of "...because teenaged pranks are FUN when you're about to die" ;)

..and of course, if it's a choice between being killed in some horrible manner, or naming another "Associate" (usually someone you didn't like anyway).. which way would YOU go? Most started making up names fast! Some though (one in particular) fought back against the insanity.. he was being crushed by stones and they asked him to name a name, he simply gasped out "More - Weight". One of the FEW that were actually killed during that mess.

Logic and Religion don't always mesh too well, especially when EITHER is carried to extremes.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:15 PM

PATIENCE


You always explain things so well, B2V.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:40 PM

CITIZEN


I think the connections to the crucible are tenuous at best.

The crucible is a work about the hysteria of the witch hunt and dangers of the mob. It’s a parallel with McCarthyism of the 1950’s and the dangers of fear guiding the actions of the mob, and how personal redemption can be gleaned through personal sacrifice and standing apart from the mob.

Safe didn’t have these themes, it had the threat of river being burnt to set up a big hero moment at the end, and a witch accusation was about the only way to do that. It was a convenient plot device, in the crucible it is the plot.



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:49 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Patience:
You always explain things so well, B2V.



I paid attention in college, I had a little white rope "Honors belt" that I had to pay an extra 11 dollars for at graduation that proves it ;)

I'd rather have the 11 dollars back, cause I lost the belt within a week of graduating..

I guess they give you a ROPE belt for graduating with honors so that you can hang yourself with it when you realize that companies don't really care what your GPA was in college, so you were stupid for constantly worrying about your 4.0 average for 5 frackin years :)

Now my little Tassles are hanging in the office on my cork board along with my dog tags... both covered in years worth of dust
(You could dust them next time you come up if you want, and go "OOoooo AHhhhhh" with awe.. cause you KNOW how often *I* go into the office... ;)

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:54 PM

PATIENCE


I'll dust 'em off, then...(too bad about that rope...:imagination goes wild for a moment::biggrin:)

I'll say hello to the bad HDs up there while I'm at it...they kill me.

Did you eat all your cake?

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:08 PM

CITIZEN


I'm guessing you two know each other off board then.



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:23 PM

FIZZIX


Quote:

Originally posted by Lissa37:
By the way, Fizzix, I thought the reference to Chemistry crucibles was funny. I remember thinking about the play when we first used crucibles in Chemistry last year and wondering why the two share the same name... ??



Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

And... I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

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May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:23 PM

PATIENCE


Better than slightly.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:25 PM

CITIZEN


Yeah I was getting that



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:31 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Patience:
I'll say hello to the bad HDs up there while I'm at it...they kill me.



Failed Harddrives and Disks MUST be crucified as an Example to the others that may be THINKING about failing me!


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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:35 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I'm guessing you two know each other off board then.



Uhh, yeah, "Know" as in the biblical sense ;)

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:36 PM

LISSA37


Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:

Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

And... I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.



Ah. The chemistry crucible connection makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the extra information on that.

And, as for the two being a perfect match... If that's directed at me, I'm hope you didn't take what I said too offensively. I wasn't trying to criticize you. I'm glad you did mention it here. I definitely see how comparisons can be made and why you see them as similar. And, I personally looove comparing things. It's fun! lol
I just meant that they weren't, you know, the same basic plot but in different worlds... sometimes, the comparisons are that close. I didn't mean you said they were exactly the same; I was, more or less, making a separate point.



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:37 PM

PATIENCE


Yer such a funny guy.



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Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:06 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Patience:
Yer such a funny guy.





I think we accidently Hijacked the thread :( Sorry

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:20 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:
Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

The crucible is a type of drama that I believe was around long before The Crucible. It is litterally what you say though, put a group of people (ussually a small group or a small group of main characters) with opposite outlooks/positions into a confined location and turn up the heat. The Breakfast club for instance was a crucible.
Quote:

I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.
I get that, I understand the analogy but I don't think it works, the only similarities I see is a somewhat religious settelment seeing witches in both. But where as The Crucible litterally IS a dramatic crucible, Safe isn't, it's a lot of character exposition (what is Books past? maybe River CAN read minds) and a little bit of peril to drive that exposition, i.e. Simon and Rivers kidnap and the eventual Witch accusation and Books gunshot wound.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:46 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
The Quote is from the bible,

Technically, the quote is from a bad translation of the Bible. King James was a thaumatophobe --he feared and hated magic and witchcraft, and the people in charge of that translation were pandering to him.

A better translation would be "Though shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Ironically enough, you could still accuse River, after that "poisoned blackberries" joke she pulled on Simon.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:50 AM

FIZZIX


Quote:

Originally posted by Lissa37:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:

Because when you heat things up really high in chemistry, you're looking for change. The Crucible heats them up really high and changes their properties.
When you accuse someone of witchery, tell them they'll hang for it if they don't confess, they're gonna confess most likely, so that they only do jail time. Of course, if "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", should they live if they confess? But they do.
John Proctor came so very close to changing, when he almost confessed, but he didn't. He un-confess-ified.

And... I never said it was a perfect match, just that it had a feel from soneome who's been doing that for at least two weaks and sees Safe. Maybe I should have just mentioned it in chat.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.



Ah. The chemistry crucible connection makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the extra information on that.

And, as for the two being a perfect match... If that's directed at me, I'm hope you didn't take what I said too offensively. I wasn't trying to criticize you. I'm glad you did mention it here. I definitely see how comparisons can be made and why you see them as similar. And, I personally looove comparing things. It's fun! lol
I just meant that they weren't, you know, the same basic plot but in different worlds... sometimes, the comparisons are that close. I didn't mean you said they were exactly the same; I was, more or less, making a separate point.



Not at you, specifically, the not perfect match thing. Sorry. I'm bad. And evil, and cynical... yeah.

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May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 6:30 AM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
The Quote is from the bible,

Technically, the quote is from a bad translation of the Bible. King James was a thaumatophobe --he feared and hated magic and witchcraft, and the people in charge of that translation were pandering to him.



Well, To be fair, they WERE locked in a room, and on a bread and water diet, until they came out with a translation everyone could agree on. There were many different translations of "the bible" floating around, and each bishop was teaching/preaching from their favorite version... King James wanted (Demanded) them to come up with ONE version, and stick to it. ;)

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 8:03 AM

LISSA37


Quote:

Originally posted by Fizzix:
Not at you, specifically, the not perfect match thing. Sorry. I'm bad. And evil, and cynical... yeah.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.



Nah, you're not bad. Or evil. Or cynical. At least, not that I've seen... is there something you're not telling us? [I'm kidding ;) ]



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Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:28 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
The Quote is from the bible,

Technically, the quote is from a bad translation of the Bible. King James was a thaumatophobe --he feared and hated magic and witchcraft, and the people in charge of that translation were pandering to him.

A better translation would be "Though shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Ironically enough, you could still accuse River, after that "poisoned blackberries" joke she pulled on Simon.




In referencing that Biblical Quote , does anyone have that specific book , chapter , or verse ?
I've noticed that 'bible' quotes from Firefly tend to be somewhat embellished with extraneous material , whether being 'quoted' by River or 'invented' by Yo-Saff-Bridge .

At the moment , I'm thinking that the one that is being referenced in this case is possibly from the scriptures that were written in Hebrew . Interestingly , in referencing 'magic' in the Greek scriptures , the term 'pharmakeia' is frequently translated most literally as 'druggers' , as there was a long history and association in the Greek culture with the Delphic Oracles and others who
had ' visions'. Modern research has suggested the notion that the Oracles were set in chairs near volcanic vents , where they chronically were subjected to a toxic atmosphere , perhaps inducing hallucinations from the clouds of chemical compounds like sulfur dioxide , hydrogen sulfide , etc.

So , 'poisoners' may not have been far off the mark . But , witchcraft has been associated with drugs , herbalogy , poisonings and the like , since some very ancient times , so there's probably a legitimate usage of the term witchcraft in some contexts . Wouldn't characterize the King James translation as 'bad' . It was 'contemporary' for its time . James employed the 'subject-matter experts' that were available to him from within his realm . That was a lot of years ago now . Our modern usages are very different , and things that would have been commonly understood then , are often outside the spheres of our experience and familiarity now .

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:14 PM

BAD2VERSE


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
In referencing that Biblical Quote , does anyone have that specific book , chapter , or verse ?
I've noticed that 'bible' quotes from Firefly tend to be somewhat embellished with extraneous material , whether being 'quoted' by River or 'invented' by Yo-Saff-Bridge .



If memory serves correctly is Exodus 22:18 or 19.. somewhere in that area, but I think it's 18. I may be wrong.. I stopped smoking a few days ago and all this oxygen is killing me ;)

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:40 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


"the McCarthy trials in history. (And, Magdalena, you may be right with the 1960s["(?)"]... I actually thought it was the 1950s, but I'm not certain. "

The NcCarthy hearings were 50's- 1954 thru '57, I think. Check out the movie " Good Night and Good Luck", with George Clooney

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:44 PM

LISSA37


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
"the McCarthy trials in history. (And, Magdalena, you may be right with the 1960s["(?)"]... I actually thought it was the 1950s, but I'm not certain. "

The NcCarthy hearings were 50's- 1954 thru '57, I think. Check out the movie " Good Night and Good Luck", with George Clooney



Thanks for the dates. And, that's an excellent movie.



Credit for screencaps belongs to: http://still-flying.net/ and http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/index.php

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Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:10 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by bad2verse:
Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
In referencing that Biblical Quote , does anyone have that specific book , chapter , or verse ?
I've noticed that 'bible' quotes from Firefly tend to be somewhat embellished with extraneous material , whether being 'quoted' by River or 'invented' by Yo-Saff-Bridge .



If memory serves correctly is Exodus 22:18 or 19.. somewhere in that area, but I think it's 18. I may be wrong.. I stopped smoking a few days ago and all this oxygen is killing me ;)

________________________
..but eatin people alive, where does THAT get fun?



Your memory is fine , B2V ; I did a bit of further exploration and I think that would be the referenced verse . But the translations I look at generally don't render the term as 'witch' , but instead , use the term 'sorceress' . I think I know the original Hebrew word that is being translated in this instance , but without additional research I can't be sure about it . Offhand , I think 'sorceress' is going to be close to the meaning of the Hebrew term . That's why the translation 'quoted' in Firefly doesn't seem familiar to me .

As for the rest of what is 'quoted' in 'Safe', it isn't from the same passage in Exodus . Probably some artistic license has been taken there .

But there are some witches mentioned in the Bible . Seems like there was one that Saul wanted to consult at a place called 'En-dor' .

And if my memory is correct , there wasn't a 'forest moon' that orbited around there !

Thanks for your response , B2V . I wish you well in your oxygenating endeavors . You'll get used to it , and it will be good for you . Quitting smoking is one of the smartest things anyone can choose to do . Never starting is better still , for anyone thinking of taking it up .

Now I'm just gonna keep walkin' .



" If you Are What you Do , when you Do , When you Don't , You Aren't. "

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