GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

How could the alliance hide the death's of 30 million people?

POSTED BY: SMAUG
UPDATED: Friday, December 1, 2006 12:14
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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:36 AM

SMAUG


I was re-watching Serenity the other day.. and not that it really matters.. but I can't believe I didn't catch this the first time around.

It has to do with Miranda and the subsequent alliance coverup.

What we know about Miranda before going there:

1) There is nothing about it on the Cortex - History, Astronomy.. it's not there.

2) It's supposedly a black rock.. Uninahbitable.. terraforming didn't hold, or somesuch, a few settlers died.

3) Some years back, before the war, there was a call for workers to settle on Miranda.

Then going to Miranda we find this out:

4) It wasn't just a few settlers.. it was 30 million people!

5) It wasn't just an outrim planet like Whitefall.. there were built up cities and such more like the inner planets.

Ok.. so here is the question.. how does the alliance cover up a planet that HAD been terraformed, and had been terraformed long enough to build up cities and to grow (weither through births or people continiuing to move there) to 30 million people?

I have to assume that most of those 30 million people moved to Miranda rather than being born there.. assuming it would take several gererations for a few thousand people to grow to 30 million people. So if most of those 30 million people moved there.. for every person who actually moved to Miranda.. there would probably be 10 people or more who considered it... and probably a 100 people who who heard about it yet didn't consider it.

Also.. with how built up Miranda appeared to be.. it would go that there would also be many ships going back and forth between Miranda and the other planets/moons: Travelers, companions, buisness men, traders, smugglers (our loveable crew ), containers of goods, etc.. Thus, there would probably be a fair number of ships going to and from Miranda continiously.

But suddenly an Alliance experiment goes terribly wrong on Miranda.. and nobody seems notice that 30 million people and an entire planet suddenly disappears? What about their friends and families that didn't move to Miranda? Between friends and family.. each of those 30 million probably has on average let's say AT LEAST 10 close friends/relatives that don't live on Miranda (or at least close enough that they would realize where did they go?)... that's a bare minimum of 300 million people.. give or take a few million, that know about Miranda and the 30 million people who live there... not to mention the at least 3 billion people who would probably have at least heard OF Miranda.

I know I am thinking about this too much.. but was just wondering if this is a plot hole or if there is a way the Alliance could really cover up Miranda that I haven't considered. I could see maybe being able to bury it over the course of a couple of centuries.. but how would they do it in one decade?

I could see how they could maybe pull it off if it were an outer rim planet where news doesn't seem to travel all that well.. that only had a population of a few thousand.. maybe even tens of thosands.. but a built up world of 30 million? I am having a hard time swallowing that..

Any ideas?

Smaug..






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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:44 AM

RIVERISMYGODDESS


Here is one idea, taken from the words of the Alliance Dr. on the Miranda recording:

Dr. Caron: These are just a few of the images we've recorded. And you can see, it wasn't what we thought. There's been no war here and no terraforming event. The environment is stable.

The Alliance could have broadcast waves that there had been either some big war that wiped out most of the population, or that something sudden happened after the people moved there with the terraforming. Both would only take a bit of creative lying on the part of the Alliance, and once it happened it could not be verified due to a) people believing the reports and not bothering to check it out, or b) people going to see what really happened and subsequently getting eaten by the Reavers that the experiment produced. The theory might be a stretch, but I think it is one possibility for what you are asking. I hope it made sense.

~Jimi
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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:55 AM

MILFORD


Remember, 30 million is probably a drop in the bucket now that we're inhabiting multiple planets in multiple solar systems. There's 6 billion here now, and we're not near as crowded as some of the core planets are described.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:04 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by milford:
...now that we're inhabiting multiple planets in multiple solar systems.



Ah, the old one-solar-system-versus-multiple-solar-systems debate...

Game on!

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:11 AM

DONCOAT


Actually, Miranda was settled by only a couple hundred people.

A couple hundred very, very fertile people...

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:32 AM

FLATTOP


Think about it...
Here on good 'ol Earth-that-was we had an entire coutry (or close to it) wiped out by a Tsunami (terra-forming incident). Yeah, there were vids; there were fundraisers & support/relief missions, but what if there was a media blackout/cover-up and a REALLY BIG (interplanetary) war that started shortly thereafter and bumped it off the front page?
What if Miranda's sudden lack of communications with the central core were presented as the opening gambit of the Independents? Capture a core equivalent world out on the rim to use as a capital/supply/fortress?
The Alliance claims to have gone in & 'pacified' (glassed) the planet to prevent it from becoming a fortress world, strikes all records, moves on to the next headline...
Plenty of folk thought about going, joined the military when called (by whichever side), and pleny of them (on the Independent side at least) end up dead. The ones on the Alliance side know better than to ask. Three folk on Serenity remembered hearing about the place, and remembered the line they'd been fed regarding why not to go there.


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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:38 AM

FLATTOP


And perhpas the most important part:
The 30 million that died didn't care at all.
They just quit returning waves, and never sent any.
"Is anything wrong?"
"No, I just don't want to talk right now." Or eat, or sleep, or reproduce, or work, or...
The 1/10th of 1% that didn't die, didn't do much talking either...


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Aww hell, I'm a big fan of all seven.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:56 AM

PIRATECAT


Well I don't know or know anybody who knows anybody in Austraila. I guess we could experiment on them. Canada and Mexico don't know anybody their either. I don't know what goes on in Maine or New Mexico so their ya go. Blame it on the browncoats war casualties. Ships would take a while to get to Miranda, then the war hit, then reavers, and Alliance would wipe out their existance electronically so their ya go. It isn't like a guiness brewery was destroyed.

I like smacken em.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:24 AM

REGINAROADIE


I've actually thought about this issue from time to time. When Kaylee says "No power in the verse can stop me.", just what exactly is she referring to? Is the 'verse just a densely packed solar system, or a cluster of systems or an entire galaxy. Remember, galaxy's can vary in size.

Personally, I think it's a galaxy, but a small galaxy that isn't to far off from our own solar system. If they haven't discovered alien life forms yet, and given the time frame of the series, then we haven't strayed too far into the deep reaches of space. The colonized verse is probably one half or one quarter a spiral in the Milky Way, and not the nine random rocks circling a single star.

Any takers on that theory?

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You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?"
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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:32 AM

HUGHFF


Or, Miranda was settled by a large religious sect who were very exclusive (in an Amish kind of way) so had minimal contact with anyone outside their denomination. No-one noticed because no-one knew them.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:32 AM

HUGHFF


Or, Miranda was settled by a large religious sect who were very exclusive (in an Amish kind of way) so had minimal contact with anyone outside their denomination. No-one noticed because no-one knew them.

Like Blues singers, one of their religious quirks was to say everything twice.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 2:14 PM

TEACHDAIRE


The canon says the 'verse is a big single multi star solar system. Remember, most of the "planets" visited in the series and the movie are actually moons.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:41 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
Well I don't know or know anybody who knows anybody in Austraila. I guess we could experiment on them. Canada and Mexico don't know anybody their either. I don't know what goes on in Maine or New Mexico so their ya go. Blame it on the browncoats war casualties. Ships would take a while to get to Miranda, then the war hit, then reavers, and Alliance would wipe out their existance electronically so their ya go. It isn't like a guiness brewery was destroyed.

I like smacken em.



We could experiment on Iowa. IF it existed.


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Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:11 AM

EVILBUNGLE


my belief is similar to some of the others listed, They get everyone out then announce that everyone was lost shortly afterwards, maybe they could even say that 3/4 of the people survived (just happns to not include anyone you know) the place is now a rock so lets move on (Maybe a day of mourning for the few that where lost) to the people on the rim this would be a case of "who cares" after all they are too busy trying to survive and prepairing for war. do you think that before the war of independence the lower levels of American society cared what was happening in Britains other colonies? if a garrison in India was wiped out would a farmer from boston really care? he may look and think "great" but then would go and get the cows in!


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Thursday, November 30, 2006 2:14 AM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


opps posted twice

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 2:19 AM

IRISHBROWNCOAT


Quote:

It isn't like a guiness brewery was destroyed.


hehehe hope not the brewery for guiness is in my home town of dundalk in republic of ireland hehehe....

but ya the allaince are big and powerful i am sure he could hide that...

also think about it stalins russia killed millions and millions yet it wasnt untill near the end of the USSR that the people actual knew how many had been killed....
they knew many had been killed but not excat numbers... and in many causes people couldnt belive that so many had been killed.
and even to this day not sure on excat numbers and also if you inculde the 10million killed in forced famine in ukraine....


to qutoe some one
This was a very difficult task, for while widely different estimates were available on such Soviet institutions as the labor camp, such polices as collectivization or the Red Terror, or such events as the deportation of Poles in 1939-1941, few experts had tried to systematically accumulate and total them over Soviet history. To my knowledge, there are only two major works in English attempting to tally the toll in some systematic manner.6 Robert Conquest gives a carefully accumulated total for the Stalin years (at least 20,000,000 killed)7; and in his samizdat translated into English, Dyadkin, a Soviet geophysicist, did a demographic analysis of excess Soviet deaths, 1926 to 1954, and concluded that Soviet repression killed 23,100,000 to 32,000,000 Soviet citizens over this 29-year period.8

Scattered here and there in one book or another are estimates of the number murdered. For example, Panin claims that 57,000,000 to 69,500,000 were killed, and says that estimates of authors in the West vary from 45,000,000 to 80,000,000 9; Solzhenitsyn mentions a 66,000,000 figure calculated by an ŽmigrŽ professor of statistics 10; and Stewart-Smith gives an estimate of 31,000,000 killed in repression 11. Like Dyadkin's, some estimates have been based on demographic analyses, as Medvedev's 22,000,000 to 23,000,000 total (1918-1953), or Dyadkin's aforementioned figures.12

so this shows just how easy it is to smuge the fact that so many people died but just how many is the answere....


Lets Be Bad Guys...........

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:30 AM

CANTER


I’ve thought about this.

The Alliance would have planned the whole settlement on Miranda as part of their experiment. We can only assume that the use of the PAX was still experimental, otherwise it would have been used on all the planets.

It would therefore seem logical that access to the planet would have been more controlled.

I don’t believe traders and such would have been allowed much, and the settlers would have had to be sold some sort of reason as to why they were not allowed contact with their off world acquaintances.

I lived through a time when our media was strongly controlled and we were made to believe what the government wanted us to believe. It’s not that hard to control the minds and beliefs of a people. (For a while, anyway)

I have a bigger question though as to the time frame.

Dr. Caron says the people stopped going to work, eating, breeding, and soon they stopped pretty much everything.

How long would it have taken for them to “stop everything”, for them to let themselves die.

Was it days? Weeks? Months?

And if it was more than one day, where was the Alliance while everything was happening? You would assume that if they started a new process, such as the PAX, that some observers would be stationed on Miranda.

Unless they too were affected, and just didn’t care enough to report. And then when they stopped reporting to head office, the “Research and Rescue” vessel was sent out to find out why. But what sort of experiment allows the observers to be exposed to the experiment?

And then, when they received Dr. Caron’s wave, (which they must have, otherwise the info wouldn’t have been available for River to read), why did they not just quietly go and extinguish the few Reavers who would then be floating around. ( a tenth of a percentage of 30 million = 300 000. Unless it was easier to just hope that the Reavers will keep any casual observer at bay.)


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Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:36 PM

ASARIAN


Hmm, you make some good points, Smaug.

Miranda ain't exactly a hick planet. It looks more like Ariel, or Persephone even; "a beacon of civilization". Though we really don't get to see a whole lot of it. Hard to imagine such a fancy planet don't send out waves to other parts of civilization, and that none of us "knowed" about it.


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Thursday, November 30, 2006 1:06 PM

TPAGE


I know there is that internet law/rule that states my example could very well end this thread... however in World War II, as we all know, Hitler ordered the mass genoicide of Jews (and other minorities).

World War 2 was not fought for that reason. It was not until the last years of the war that the allies even got the idea that something was happening. (Anyone see Band of Brothers, loved that series, good episode about the concentration camps). As for the german people themselves, I honestly believe that they did not know the extent to which Hitler was "dealing with" the "Jewish problem."

Look at the Border Crisis in America now. I am not comparing it to concentration camps, however it illustrates that people are constantly deported and how many of you Americans, let alone me as a Canadian, know exactly what the government does with them and how it treats them. How much effort would it take a charismatic leader, who in Germany's case, was elected Dictator to dispose of those illegal immigrants permanently without alerting the general public to what's going on?

Institute a very selective application process for the Border Patrol (I do not know what organisation is tasked with immigration control in America) and during training indoctrinate people into your way of thinking (if you read some books on the SS you would be amazed how easy it can be to indoctrinate people, also think of the Stanford Prison Experiment) and you would achieve the Miranda Situation.

Ok, so my example is not exact but I believe it applies to the discussion.



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Thursday, November 30, 2006 1:39 PM

SIRI


Quote:

Originally posted by TPage:
.....

Look at the Border Crisis in America now. I am not comparing it to concentration camps, however it illustrates that people are constantly deported and how many of you Americans, let alone me as a Canadian, know exactly what the government does with them and how it treats them. How much effort would it take a charismatic leader, who in Germany's case, was elected Dictator to dispose of those illegal immigrants permanently without alerting the general public to what's going on?

Institute a very selective application process for the Border Patrol (I do not know what organisation is tasked with immigration control in America) and during training indoctrinate people into your way of thinking (if you read some books on the SS you would be amazed how easy it can be to indoctrinate people, also think of the Stanford Prison Experiment) and you would achieve the Miranda Situation.

Ok, so my example is not exact but I believe it applies to the discussion.

.....



I've thought about this, too, and there did appear to be some inconsistencies. TPage makes some good points.

Dr. Carter said the Reavers had killed most of them but we didn't see evidence of that (or I didn't notice anyone finding desicrated bodies). And why did Dr. Carter care? Were some of them immune to the Pax somehow - the folks in charge? Sealing the area off by creating a cover-up story, allowing the Reavers to become the boogie-men of outer space and scare people away (it scared Wash and Zoe when they were considering going to Miranda), and, yes, perhaps the folks selected or recruited to go to Miranda might have been carefully selected. Still, the Alliance didn't expect the results they got, so they probably had to come up with a good story and a method of keeping folks away.

Good discussion into the mind of Joss, etal.

Siri

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 1:46 PM

ZEEK


Maybe we hit the nail on the head about this being before the war.

If it was close to the start of the war then it would have been easy to cover up. Communications may have been spotty at best. The alliance probably told traders when and to where they could travel. So, that stops anybody from going to Miranda because of "war business". Any smugglers who tried would have been eaten up by Reavers.

Other people would be losing loved ones to the war and may have assumed that the people they never heard from again on Miranda were lost in the war. They hear something about it having a teraforming event or a war hitting there and that's enough to satisfy them that their friends or family are gone.

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 2:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Wow, great thread, and even better contributions!
When I read the question, I had to think, but y'all answered it for me, so all I can say is: see above!

With the crowd Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:11 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


The first casualty of war is the truth...Doesn't matter if it's a shootin' war or a ' cold ' one .

Half of writin' History is hidin' the truth...

Just think of the billion-plus folk in China with Internet access thoroughly regulated and controlled by the Party...access to many Western sites is restricted...Probably this one , even ! Too subversive , ya know...

There are lots of key words we could mention here that would send up red flags on n*w*o scavenger programs that constantly scour your 'Net activity...

Yep , that 'Firefly' show was too libertine in nature to be allowed to exist for long...Appeals to free thinkers and other creative folk...

If you are not paranoid , you're one of the
' somnambulant public '.

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:19 PM

THEFIREFLYSERENITY


Have you seen where Miranda is? Although it is highly developed like a core planet, in terms of position it really, really is a border planet. Perhaps the Alliance were trying to establish some sort of base way out there, maybe in order to get a foothold on all known space and break the peace with the Independents. Anyways, the way I see it is that its too far out for anyone in the core to really hear about, plus any real record of it was erased, it became a ghost planet. The Reavers are flaotin in the black just past Miranda in that huge “belt” that Zoe points out on the map. The Alliance and its people sorta have a “Its nowhere near me so its not my problem” attitude. All those people are safe and protected by the Alliance on planets like Ariel. For some reason the Reavers don’t seem to venture outside of their own backyard so to speak hence why they seem to be prominent on border planets like Whitefall. Plus the Alliance are such a powerful government and people will believe whatever they read on the cortex much like how we pretty much believe whatever we read on the internet or newspapers. Its not just that though, its also a case of what they say goes and if you don’t like it tough, so when they say here was a war on Miranda who are you in the ‘verse to say otherwise basically...

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Mal: Ain’t we just!

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Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:46 PM

RABBIT2


I suspect that Miranda was something of an `Oddball` in terms of its settup.
The Alliance probably sent a huge number of construction, admin and orginisational people in the first colonisation waves in order to build the cities and transport ifrastructure before the rest of the colonists arrived instead of the usual practice of just dumping colonists on a newly terraformed world with minimal equipment. Expensive, but if the intention was to show the Independants the `proper` way to build a colony then the Alliance probably felt it was worth the effort.

If, as suggested in the movie terraforming is done from a single, centralised station then its fairly easy to see how something like the Pax could be introduced on a planetary level without many people noticing.

As previously mentioned, since all this took place before the war then the death of a large number of colonists in a terraforming disaster, important though it was at the time had largely faded from memory by the time the movie was set.
The probable huge casualty lists of the war (in which at least one other colony was destroyed) tended to cause the facts to fade into obscurity as well.

Another factor to consider is the problems caused by time lag in communications due to the speed of light even over interplanetary distances. Granted, in the movie there appears to be instantanious communications through the cortex (which kind of suggests some kind of FTL communications technology existing by the way) that technology may not have existed pre war.
If thats the case, then its quite likely the only regular communications between Miranda and the core colonies was through official channels. The only way the average colonist could send a message to the folks back home was through the `Verse`s equivelant of `snailmail` and once the Pax started to have an effect they largely stopped bothering.



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Friday, December 1, 2006 2:57 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by TheFireflySerenity:

Have you seen where Miranda is? Although it is highly developed like a core planet, in terms of position it really, really is a border planet. Perhaps the Alliance were trying to establish some sort of base way out there, maybe in order to get a foothold on all known space and break the peace with the Independents. Anyways, the way I see it is that its too far out for anyone in the core to really hear about, plus any real record of it was erased, it became a ghost planet. The Reavers are flaotin in the black just past Miranda in that huge “belt” that Zoe points out on the map. The Alliance and its people sorta have a “Its nowhere near me so its not my problem” attitude. All those people are safe and protected by the Alliance on planets like Ariel. For some reason the Reavers don’t seem to venture outside of their own backyard so to speak hence why they seem to be prominent on border planets like Whitefall. Plus the Alliance are such a powerful government and people will believe whatever they read on the cortex much like how we pretty much believe whatever we read on the internet or newspapers. Its not just that though, its also a case of what they say goes and if you don’t like it tough, so when they say here was a war on Miranda who are you in the ‘verse to say otherwise basically...




And this is a very good post, too. Well thought-out logic, and well presented.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, December 1, 2006 3:15 AM

TDBROWN


Yeah, and let's remember that no one in the entire 'verse owns a gorram telescope, or is capable of looking at Miranda and seeing that it's Not black rock! For being the furthest planet from the Sun it was awfully bright too.

There are explanations for all of this, of course. Enough Fan wanking and there's an Asteroid Field obscuring the view, and an Artificial Sun orbiting Miranda as well.

The bottom line, though, is that it's all about Suspension of Disbelief. Because this is a Movie, a fiction, and Joss wasn't overly worried about the kind of detail that we tend to obsess on. In terms of the Setting, the Acting, and making it all seem Believable, he did a fantastic job. I LOVE this film, and the 'verse. But the "science" in Joss' Fiction is rarely capitalized. Doesn't need to be...

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Friday, December 1, 2006 11:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by TDBrown:
Because this is a Movie, a fiction, and Joss wasn't overly worried about the kind of detail that we tend to obsess on.

Who obsesses? I don't obsess! I've seen Serenity 31 times now, and I never obsess on any one part of it! KIRK OBSESSES, NOT ME!!STOP SAYING WE OBSESS!!!!!



Okay...so I obsess a little...

I'm SO impressed with the brilliance and creativity demonstrated on this thread! Y'all should be proud of yourselves, each and every gorram one!

Proud just to be among ya Chrisisall

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Friday, December 1, 2006 11:32 AM

TDBROWN


I tend to obsess a might myself, chrisisall, or I wouldn't have posted!

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Friday, December 1, 2006 12:14 PM

ZZETTA13


So here are some more thoughts and opinions on this thread.

First if we take into account all of the unsolved mysteries,unexplained happenings and what not on this small planet it isn't hard to believe that hiding the deaths of 30 million ppl would be a big deal 500 years into the future.

Consider this. No aliens? What if the "Hands of Blue" guys are aliens or the crossbreedings of aliens and humans. What if they wanted to study us humans in a manner in such that we would never know of their existence? It happened in 1947 in a country named America in the state of NM.

If the Evil verse government known hensforth as FOX( Future Oppressive eXecutors ) wanted to study the devices of future crowd control techniques it woundn't be that hard to plan and execute the experimintation of an entire planet which ends up resulting in the deaths of 30 million ppl. Look at the truth of the Kennedy assassination or the tragedy of Jonestown.We will never know the turth of the first one. The second was only known of after the fact.Nope wouldn't be that complicated to hide the extermination of 30 million. Just have the majority of the populace sworn to secrecy and have them explain to loved-ones that they are acctually on a different planet way off in the other direction. Christmas cards, birthday greetings and other such correspondence could be shipped off into space never to see the light of day again. Easy Peazzy :)

For those who do not remember Kennedy or Jonestown, well I've made my point.

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