GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Serentiy beats out Stars Wars

POSTED BY: SYNTHETIC
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 4, 2007 04:43
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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 3:09 AM

SYNTHETIC


Serenity named top sci-fi movie by the BBC.

I dunno if this has already been talked about, but here it is. This is big time, and some killer recognition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6517155.stm

oh and here is the SFX where the polle came from.

http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=lord_of_the_fireflies


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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 3:54 AM

SHUKES


It wasn't even close, thats really brilliant! I love star wars, more the original trilogy than the phantom trilogy, but i would say i prefer serenity it just suits me more i suppose.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 4:31 AM

THOLO


I think Star Wars has better SFX than Serenity. But the thing that make Serentiy win for me (and why i voted for it) is because the SFX have a story with it, which for me make it a stronger film.

come on there are sfx errors in the movie, Inara holding a bow instead of her bolt thrower. stuff like that Lucas would never let fly. Yes he has a bigger budget, but remember the first one(IV -1977) You never saw stuff like that? thats why it still holds up.

now the new (greedo shoots first) updated one we wont get into.

thats why i think if they make a special edition dvd of serenity, fix the boo-boo's

another poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6517155.stm

Keep Flying!!

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 4:54 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


Like the creator of this thread said, I'm not sure if this has been discussed but...

Over on Whedonesque (which I only check for news about Whedon, I'm not a member), there seems to be absolute outrage erupting that Serenity had the nerve to beat Star Wars to the top. Members are muttering about 'ballot stuffing' and the disgrace of it all. So what? As a fandom struggling to get a sequel, anything we can do to up the profile of Serenity is a great thing from my point of view. And if ballot stuffing this poll has done that well thats fine by me. I mean, the Guardian (UK broadsheet newspaper) has had two articles about Serenity this week as a result, as well as the story linked above appearing on BBC.co.uk. Star Wars doesn't need any publicity! And if people want to argue about the artistic merits of the films then thats one thing, but saying that this sort of fan behaviour is bad for the film is downright stupid IMO. If a major newspaper ends an article by saying that Serenity is well worth renting (despite the ridiculous statement that it tails off towards the last half hour), then that may well be a few more Browncoats being awakened out there. Which is nothing but a good thing!

By the way, on artistic merits, Serenity beats any of the individual Star Wars films hands down. Not as a influence on pop culture, but as a piece of art.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 5:08 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way I did.

I am a member on Whedonesque, and frankly, the whole discussion is sad to me. It's one poll on one website people. And while I wasn't a member of the fandom at the time, I can almost guarantee that similar things happened back when Buffy and Angel were on (not that I'm bashing those shows in any way).

I didn't want to say it explicitly on Whedonesque, but sometimes it seems like some of the posters aren't that fond of Browncoats. Simon explained to me once that this was a result of their being so many different types of Joss-fans on the site (Buffy and Angel fans, X-Men, Browncoats, among others). I don't know, all of this just makes me glad I'm a member here. You can get slammed pretty hard over there for not following the group consensus. Which at the current point in time, doesn't seem to be too Browncoat-friendly.

Edit: Of course, while posting this I am fervently hoping this doesn't get me banned over there. You never know...

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 6:29 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND


I totally agree with you Deepgirl. I remember a while back when Whedonesque bashed away at that Orson Scott guy for some of his views, which distressed a number of Browncoats that shared his opinions. Whilst Whedonesque is an excellent site (unparalled for news about Joss, the actors and their projects) I find FFF.net a much more welcoming place. Also, some of the comments on Whedonesque about the Star Wars vs. Serenity issue arent very constructive. One example I read today:

"Is Serenity better than Star Wars? No."

Well reasoned and eloquent. I guess there must be a much more varied Whedon-based fandom over there like you said, which means Serenity won't always be their first priority. Those die hard Alien Resurrection fans desparately hoping for Joss to pen another sequel etc.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 6:30 AM

STORYMARK


It's nice as a bit of publicity, to raise the profile. But I don't think anyone is taking it too seriously.

If Serenity had achieved that rank without ballot-stuffing, that would be awesome. But I think we all know that's not the case.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 7:01 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


I loved Serenity but I would never put it in the top 5 all-time scifi movies. Some of these polls are so lame.

"..it is my very favorite gun."

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:00 AM

DECAF


I tend to agree that Serenity shouldn't be considered the best sci-fi movie ever, but then I don't think Star Wars should either. If you want to make the argument that best should be gauged by its impact on culture, then perhaps, but then isn't a rabid fanbase a symptom of that effect? Did Star Wars make a cultural impact because it educated people?

Honestly, I don't think George Lucas can write dialogue worth a Sunday comic strip (though granted its not the only skill needed to be successful), so the question to me is how is Star Wars considered so potent? Maybe someone can enlighten me, because it seems to me that the reason is the fans, and I think that same is true for Serenity.

_________________________________
"The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just."
- Abraham Lincoln

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:04 AM

BIGMAN


i think Star Wars was a truly significant moment for cinema and I loved the origional three movies. But Serenity(actually I think we really mean Fire Fly) is much better written and the verse is much more of an interesting setting. some of the Fire Fly episodes are poetic and dare I say it literature if you get my meaning. Star wars was just cowboys and Indians in space.
Oh and on the subject of Boo Boos what about the Stormtrooper bumping his head on the door frame on the Death Star SW episode 1V

he's lookin to shoot some folk

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:19 AM

BROWNCOATKC


there is another poll on the top link for a re-vote. Just wanted to make sure everyone votes on it also.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:32 AM

GED


Awesome!

__________________________________________________
This above all, — to thine ownself be true.
http://www.myspace.com/artv

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:42 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Decaf:
...so the question to me is how is Star Wars considered so potent? Maybe someone can enlighten me, because it seems to me that the reason is the fans, and I think that same is true for Serenity.




Well, being most popular is about fans, and Star Wars has a whole hell of a lot more fans. Being a worldwide sensation on-and-off for 30 years will do that.

But it does go beyond just the fans. Star Wars changed how movies were made, marketed, and the effect they can have on not just our culture (as in, western), but world-wide.

Beyond that, it also greatly shaped the science-fiction genre in many ways.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:53 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by bigman:
Star wars was just cowboys and Indians in space.





Uh,... and mysical forces, magical knights, prophecies, allusions to arthurian legend, and large scale politics amongst other things.

Firefly is literally Cowboys and Indians in space. It's freakin' littered with illusions to westens, and each and every characyter is a western archetype.

In other words, you seem to have it a bit backwards.

I love Firefly, and am not trying to diminish the depth contained within, but to slag on Star Wars because it bears simmilarities to Westerns, and then overlook the fact that that was the express purpose behind Firefly seems somewhat rediculous.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 3:05 PM

DECAF


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Well, being most popular is about fans, and Star Wars has a whole hell of a lot more fans. Being a worldwide sensation on-and-off for 30 years will do that.

But it does go beyond just the fans. Star Wars changed how movies were made, marketed, and the effect they can have on not just our culture (as in, western), but world-wide.

Beyond that, it also greatly shaped the science-fiction genre in many ways.



I agree Star Wars has numbers, but I wonder how many people think Casablanca is a great classic who've never seen it. Its a great classic because its a great classic... wait a tick... The amount of time it has had the crown does it credit, but I think sometimes it has the crown because no one is brave enough to take it away.

The problem is how loosely defined 'best' is. There are a number of things I think Firefly/Serenity did better (dialogue, story arc, relatability, camera work, portrayal of morality, etc...), but it wasn't a box office smash. Most folk don't want to have to research a movie to enjoy it the way its meant to be enjoyed, as much as we wish they would. Star Wars certainly has its strengths, and is enjoyable to watch, but I suppose if it has anything that absolutely trumps Serenity it is that you can watch everything through one medium. Were that true of both, I think you'd find many opinions changing.

_________________________________
"The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just."
- Abraham Lincoln

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 6:32 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Decaf:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Well, being most popular is about fans, and Star Wars has a whole hell of a lot more fans. Being a worldwide sensation on-and-off for 30 years will do that.

But it does go beyond just the fans. Star Wars changed how movies were made, marketed, and the effect they can have on not just our culture (as in, western), but world-wide.

Beyond that, it also greatly shaped the science-fiction genre in many ways.



I agree Star Wars has numbers, but I wonder how many people think Casablanca is a great classic who've never seen it. Its a great classic because its a great classic... wait a tick... The amount of time it has had the crown does it credit, but I think sometimes it has the crown because no one is brave enough to take it away.



Maybe. I'd agrue that Casablanca's reputation is still based more on quality than momentum, but I'll roll with it. But even so, I don't think you'll find many people calling Star Wars a classic who havn't seen it.


Quote:

The problem is how loosely defined 'best' is. There are a number of things I think Firefly/Serenity did better (dialogue, story arc, relatability, camera work, portrayal of morality, etc...), but it wasn't a box office smash. Most folk don't want to have to research a movie to enjoy it the way its meant to be enjoyed, as much as we wish they would. Star Wars certainly has its strengths, and is enjoyable to watch, but I suppose if it has anything that absolutely trumps Serenity it is that you can watch everything through one medium. Were that true of both, I think you'd find many opinions changing.



True, all things are subjective, when it comes to "best". But I think you are ignoring the direct influence Star Wars itself had on Firefly - something that has been acknowleged by Joss, and joked about quite a bit by Nathan.

As for the things you think Serenity does better, again, subjective. Serenity's dialog was snappier than Star Wars, but no more realistic (as in, both are stylized and not how "normal people" speak), and there are some who find Joss' dialog overly arch. Story arc? I'd say Star Wars holds up there just fine. Relatabliity? Depends on who you are, but a coming-of-age story is always going to connect with a lot of people. I don't think Serenity contained any themes quite as universal. Camara work? Some of what was done in Serenity wasn't possible for Star Wars. Some of it was invented for Star Wars.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 6:35 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Synthetic:

Serenity named top sci-fi movie by the BBC.

I dunno if this has already been talked about, but here it is. This is big time, and some killer recognition.



Big time, indeed. We've just been slashdotted:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/03/0137240

EDIT: I just couldn't resist, and posted this on slahsdot in response:

Serenity is like the penthouse of a very tall skyscraper. Examine the interior, and you'll find beauty, but not the absolute apex. That is, until you step back, and see what height it was built on: Firefly. Without having seen the floors below, you won't truly get it. It angers folks that Serenity does so well, whereas it at bombed at the box office. And yet DVD sales were through the roof. And now this. While the numbers say it should crash, Serenity is still flyin'. As Mal said so well himself: "Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down." That is the magic of Serenity. If you want to find out how it works exactly, don't land on the roof by helicopter, but enter the building from the ground floor, and walk your way up. Believe me, how you get there is the worthier part.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 8:34 PM

ROY



Assuming you've recently seen all 5 of the movies on the BBC poll. If you could only watch ONE of them, which ONE would you watch ?

I liked all of them, but given the above, I'd pick Serenity as it offers the most.

*************************
"You all still be here when I wake up ?"

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 9:01 PM

DECAF


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Maybe. I'd agrue that Casablanca's reputation is still based more on quality than momentum, but I'll roll with it. But even so, I don't think you'll find many people calling Star Wars a classic who havn't seen it.



Don't get me wrong, it is a classic. My annoyance that the claim comes just as often from ignorance. My suggestion that Star Wars was in a similar position isn't based on the same kind of ignorance... most people don't invest themselves in their opinions. It's easier to take the majority view and adopt it as your own. Star Wars has had its reputation for a long time, and the longer it has it, the easier it is to accept it without question.

Quote:

Some of it was invented for Star Wars.


Granted, much of the technical marks Serenity has would have been infinitely more difficult for Lucas, but I must be more insistent on my views of the story itself. George Lucas is given far more credit than I believe he deserves. I would go so far as to say it wasn't really him that made Star Wars into something worth respecting, much less being fanatic about. But then the question isn't about the skill of the creator/director, so I suppose it has little bearing. I guess I'm biased in my dislike of both the success of his bumbling and the way he has damaged what he had.

Ok, that was a tangent... the story. Calling it a coming of age story really has to account for all three movies in the trilogy, which is an advantage Serenity did not have. Maybe I've grown cynical over the years, but I believe most people can relate to a story about being betrayed by their government. Serenity is a story about respect. The PAX is the ultimate expression of disrespect. To be angry at someone, you must respect their ability to hurt you. To love someone, you must respect their ability to love you. To protect someone from themselves, you must decide that they are incapable of such a simple task themselves. Maybe I'm reading myself into the story, but that's how it came across to me. I wish Firefly could be included to get the story a fuller setting (as the Star Wars movies are invariably taken with respect to each other) but my vote will remain with Serenity (or Blade Runner, but that's for another discussion)

_________________________________
"The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just."
- Abraham Lincoln

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 9:10 PM

THOLO


Quote:

Originally posted by bigman:
i think Star Wars was a truly significant moment for cinema and I loved the origional three movies. But Serenity(actually I think we really mean Fire Fly) is much better written and the verse is much more of an interesting setting. some of the Fire Fly episodes are poetic and dare I say it literature if you get my meaning. Star wars was just cowboys and Indians in space.
Oh and on the subject of Boo Boos what about the Stormtrooper bumping his head on the door frame on the Death Star SW episode 1V

he's lookin to shoot some folk




how did i know this was going to come up? hehee,
a real stormtrooper could do that, if ya know what i mean. so that to me is not a SFX boo-boo.



Keep Flying!!

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 4:43 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Decaf:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Maybe. I'd agrue that Casablanca's reputation is still based more on quality than momentum, but I'll roll with it. But even so, I don't think you'll find many people calling Star Wars a classic who havn't seen it.



Don't get me wrong, it is a classic. My annoyance that the claim comes just as often from ignorance. My suggestion that Star Wars was in a similar position isn't based on the same kind of ignorance... most people don't invest themselves in their opinions. It's easier to take the majority view and adopt it as your own. Star Wars has had its reputation for a long time, and the longer it has it, the easier it is to accept it without question.

Quote:

Some of it was invented for Star Wars.


Granted, much of the technical marks Serenity has would have been infinitely more difficult for Lucas, but I must be more insistent on my views of the story itself. George Lucas is given far more credit than I believe he deserves. I would go so far as to say it wasn't really him that made Star Wars into something worth respecting, much less being fanatic about. But then the question isn't about the skill of the creator/director, so I suppose it has little bearing. I guess I'm biased in my dislike of both the success of his bumbling and the way he has damaged what he had.



Well there you go, you're letting your personal feelings for the creator of the movie to color your feelings for the movie itself.

Quote:

Ok, that was a tangent... the story. Calling it a coming of age story really has to account for all three movies in the trilogy, which is an advantage Serenity did not have. Maybe I've grown cynical over the years, but I believe most people can relate to a story about being betrayed by their government. Serenity is a story about respect. The PAX is the ultimate expression of disrespect. To be angry at someone, you must respect their ability to hurt you. To love someone, you must respect their ability to love you. To protect someone from themselves, you must decide that they are incapable of such a simple task themselves. Maybe I'm reading myself into the story, but that's how it came across to me. I wish Firefly could be included to get the story a fuller setting (as the Star Wars movies are invariably taken with respect to each other) but my vote will remain with Serenity (or Blade Runner, but that's for another discussion)




I disagree that you need to look at the whole trilogy to see the coming-of-age story. Yes, Luke continues to progress through the other 2, but Star Wars is the only film in the series that really functions on it's own, without the other films. And Luke has a very clear coming-of-age character arc through the story. Entire books have been written on just that facet.

And I don't disagree that being betrayed by the government is a theme that a lot of people can relate to, but I don't think everyone does by any means. There are plenty of people who actually think the government does an okay job, or don't care, or aren't old enough to undertsant, or whatever. Everyone has grown up, that's what I mean when I speak of universal themes. Mistrust of the govenrment is apowerfull one, and very relevant to a lot of people, but not nearly as many.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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