GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

pretentious, chest-pounding, protecting the damsel-in-distress, woman-protecting, hero of Canton speeches

POSTED BY: LEADB
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:34
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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:59 AM

LEADB


Having been bodily ejected from our previous thread:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=28755&m=497406#497406
(big smiley face for River :-) )

I'll start quoting of Causal....
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, this raises the interesting question of whether equal in value, dignity and ability means that the sexes should be acted towards and responded to in the same sorts of ways...


Mostly yes.
At work, I must. To do otherwise I risk being fired. I hold doors for women. I hold doors for men. I let women hold doors for me, if they wish; as I allow men to hold doors for me as well. I hope you get the point.

Outside of work, I do my best to be polite to all; but I confess a mild bias to showing a bit more consideration, respect for women; and a bit more expectation to let men hold thier own. However, if a woman's been accosted by a man, and is beating the crap out of him, I'll likely not step in. (other than to hang around to bear witness to the police as needed). On the flip side, if some poor fellow is simply being accosted, I might step in and lend a hand, call police as needed; though I'm seriously hoping not to get called down on that in a genuinely life threatening way.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:03 AM

CONSTANCE


LOL... Congrats on your own new shiny thread you knights in semi-shining armour..

Constance

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:53 AM

DARKJESTER


I prefer "Knight in Slightly Dingy Armor" myself

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:36 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Having been bodily ejected from our previous thread:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=28755&m=497406#497406
(big smiley face for River :-) )

I'll start quoting of Causal....
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, this raises the interesting question of whether equal in value, dignity and ability means that the sexes should be acted towards and responded to in the same sorts of ways...


Mostly yes.
At work, I must. To do otherwise I risk being fired. I hold doors for women. I hold doors for men. I let women hold doors for me, if they wish; as I allow men to hold doors for me as well. I hope you get the point.

Outside of work, I do my best to be polite to all; but I confess a mild bias to showing a bit more consideration, respect for women; and a bit more expectation to let men hold thier own. However, if a woman's been accosted by a man, and is beating the crap out of him, I'll likely not step in. (other than to hang around to bear witness to the police as needed). On the flip side, if some poor fellow is simply being accosted, I might step in and lend a hand, call police as needed; though I'm seriously hoping not to get called down on that in a genuinely life threatening way.



It seems to be the case that if one is to be politically correct, one must maintain that men and women are absolutely identical in all but physiology. But is that true? The dangerous question seems to be, are there things that are true of men or true of women in virtue of their being men or women? If the answer to that is no, I submit that to treat them any different would be some form of reverse discrimination whereby one gender received preferential treatment over another. but if the answer to that question is yes, then maybe it is the case there should be some differnt treatment between men and women. So maybe we should ask first whether it truly is the case that the only real difference between the sexes is physiological. My answer (having lived with a woman for three years) is a resounding, "no!" I think there are differences between men and women that go beyond sexual apparatus.

*ducks for cover*

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:56 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:

It seems to be the case that if one is to be politically correct, one must maintain that men and women are absolutely identical in all but physiology. But is that true? The dangerous question seems to be, are there things that are true of men or true of women in virtue of their being men or women? If the answer to that is no, I submit that to treat them any different would be some form of reverse discrimination whereby one gender received preferential treatment over another. but if the answer to that question is yes, then maybe it is the case there should be some differnt treatment between men and women. So maybe we should ask first whether it truly is the case that the only real difference between the sexes is physiological. My answer (having lived with a woman for three years) is a resounding, "no!" I think there are differences between men and women that go beyond sexual apparatus.

*ducks for cover*


It's not a trivial exercise, by any means, to do the "right" thing. One thing at work we -were- encouraged to do was take one of those "personality tests,"
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm
And it was made very clear we -should- value the different personality types, and handle people -appropriate- to their personality. As a consequence, I am permitted to handle an INFP (Introvert, iNtuition, Feeling, Perceiving) person differently than an ESTJ (Extrovert, Sensing, Thinking, Judging) person. If it so happens that women tend toward a different personality type, -that's- fine and cool; and I can handle these different personality types differently (and not get in trouble) (following dicusses Myers-Briggs sex based differences):
http://www.maec.org/beyond.html
Frankly, if I come across a INFP, should I handle one differently because that particular one is a woman vs a man? Dunno. I can only say I try to do my best to handle people as individuals; and especially in my private life (as opposed to business where I must follow the strictures of my employer) and not let race and sex enter into it (unless I'm looking for a date (which I haven't for a while now, being married) in which case I do treat men and women differently).

I will say that many things which people attribute to race and sex often are easily explained by upbringing, which in turn are clearly affected by location, financial status, and the foibles of family. Sex does seem to bias behavior somewhat (as mentioned above), but it is a bias rather than an absolut, and I find handling folks as individuals "covers" much of that.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 10:00 AM

CAUSAL


Does gender factor into the way you approach people as individuals? Clearly, that's part of who they are as an individual.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 1:44 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Does gender factor into the way you approach people as individuals? Clearly, that's part of who they are as an individual.


It's certainly a fair question. At work, I will say "No, to the extent humanly possible", in private life, I'll say "No, for the most part." Back to my original post, I concede I'm more likely to leave a man to his own devices unless asked for aid; and am more likely to offer assistance to a woman who is not obviously distressed (to be clear, if a woman is clearly distressed, I will almost always offer aid). But again, circumstances greatly color the response.

For what it's worth, it's not a matter I obsess over either. On the bright side, I don't get too many folks complaining to my face; and of course, what they say behind my back, I can't know ;-) So hopefully I haven't wandered too far down the path socio-deviation.

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Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:04 PM

RIVER6213


If a guy opens a door for me, unless I know him I don't pass through it. I just stare at him as the patronizing jack-ass that he is until he shrugs and goes through the door himself. I ignore guys who offer me special favors with the automatic assumption that I need it; I see guys like this as complete idiots. I hate the sort of guy that was raised to patronize women with the assumption that she is weak and needs him.

We woman are built smaller and yes this is a reality. We get Pregnant. We have lunar cycle periods. Yes we have a more advanced emotion system than men. Yes we are more communicative, and yes we are more than likely to work in groups than men. I also think we make better lawyers and judges then men.

Men and women have their own strengths that is there's and there's alone. There are things that men can do that I could never do, nor want too. Men are better warriors because men were built that way. Men are all about brute strength, and are totally built for combat and domination, and also force projection. But a man's wife or girlfriend, or just the nice girl next door will knife this mighty warrior in his sleep.

You need us more than we need you. We woman rock and don't you knuckle dragger's forget that.

-River


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Monday, May 21, 2007 12:47 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


It is a shame that some people see chivalry as men being "idiots". My mother raised me be polite and kind to women, to treat them as the fairer sex. Note I did NOT say "weaker" sex. I respect and admire women and as a Southern male I was raised to be a gentleman in all respects when dealing with a woman.

Yes, I hold doors for a woman, I will help her carry packages, help her pick things up if she drops them, etc. It is not because I think a woman is "weak", needs my help, or is somehow incapable of doing things for herself, rather it is because I was raised to respect and revere women.

It is a shame that some women would feel I am "patronizing" them as that is not the intention. I weep for a world where a man is chivalrous and is found to be "idiotic".

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Monday, May 21, 2007 2:01 AM

AGENTROUKA


Wow, River, you sound slightly... bitter..


While some behavior and attitudes - and people - might be rooted in misogyny, in this day and age there is nearly never a way to tell which person holds what views at first glance.

It's probably better to give people the benefit of the doubt. Opening the door for someone is a gesture of helpfulness. How do you know this person doesn't do the same for men?

Unless you are generally opposed to politeness, there is no justification for looking down on someone else's polite gesture. That there's a patronizing intention is your own assumption.

The point where you get assertive, that should be when you are actually treated unfairly.

Men, in general, are not the enemy. Some people are and you'll know them when you see them.



In general, I have had very few experiences that in any way made me feel like my gender was an impediment to what I wanted.

Granted, this may have more to do with my general lack of professional ambition, but sexism has never really factored into my life.

That makes it hard for me to work up personal bitterness about society.


That said, I tend to get very irritated when I do encounter blatantly sexist attitudes, the kind that suggest treating people not like individuals but according to preconceived notions about a group. Or, god beware, those that downright state one gender to be "better" than another.

Why is "different but equal" such a hard concept to swallow? All that can possibly owe each other is mutual respect and honesty, so why does different so often mean wrong or inferior?

Whether men and women are different and whether those differences are biological, social or both... that's largely irrelevant. Their opportunities should be the same. If they are not, that's a problem, but why should we, in general, treat people differently based solely on gender, even if there are appreciable differences?

The largest part of both men and women is that they are both human. We are more alike than we are different, even if both sides sometims like to hide behind either stereotypical strengths or weaknesses.

Every individual has the right to want and strive for certain things. Much more practical to draw lines according to measureable abilities in an individual. The less we get in the way with artificial barriers the better.


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Monday, May 21, 2007 2:39 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If a guy opens a door for me, unless I know him I don't pass through it. [...]

You need us more than we need you. We woman rock and don't you knuckle dragger's forget that.

-River



I suspect, on the first count we'd get along well enough, I don't tend to hold doors for women I don't know. For people I don't know, yes, if their hands are full, especially if one has a hot coffee.

On your final point, I think people rock. Not sure about the whole "need more than the other"; I suppose if one is worried about the propagation of the species... in general, that does not seem to be a problem (unless you get into the Fred Small "Too many people having too many babies" aspect).

--
To Browncoat1's point, I will say I don't weep for that condition. I will say it is unfortunate when one offers kindness in any form with no expectation of 'reward', and it is assumed to be anything other than that by the recipient. The world can use more kindness.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:15 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If a guy opens a door for me, unless I know him I don't pass through it. [...]

You need us more than we need you. We woman rock and don't you knuckle dragger's forget that.

-River



I suspect, on the first count we'd get along well enough, I don't tend to hold doors for women I don't know. For people I don't know, yes, if their hands are full, especially if one has a hot coffee.

On your final point, I think people rock. Not sure about the whole "need more than the other"; I suppose if one is worried about the propagation of the species... in general, that does not seem to be a problem (unless you get into the Fred Small "Too many people having too many babies" aspect).

--
To Browncoat1's point, I will say I don't weep for that condition. I will say it is unfortunate when one offers kindness in any form with no expectation of 'reward', and it is assumed to be anything other than that by the recipient. The world can use more kindness.



When a man is "nice" to a woman she will ALWAYS have to suspect his motives. That is just a modern day reality.
When a guy openly voices his treatment of woman as being respectful, or gentlemanly, in my opinion that's a red flag because a person that genuinely acts gentlemanly should have no need to let everyone around him know.

-River


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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:29 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

When a man is "nice" to a woman she will ALWAYS have to suspect his motives. That is just a modern day reality.



What if a woman is nice to you? Do you react the same way? And what do you consider "nice" and what is nice? Is the treshhold different with men and women? Why?

What motives do you suspect in a man holding open a door for you that a woman wouldn't have?

Quote:


When a guy openly voices his treatment of woman as being respectful, or gentlemanly, in my opinion that's a red flag because a person that genuinely acts gentlemanly should have no need to let everyone around him know.



How often do men unmotivatedly and publically proclaim that they generally act gentlemanly toward women? I'm kind of confused where you're taking this from.


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Monday, May 21, 2007 8:33 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

--


When a man is "nice" to a woman she will ALWAYS have to suspect his motives. That is just a modern day reality.
When a guy openly voices his treatment of woman as being respectful, or gentlemanly, in my opinion that's a red flag because a person that genuinely acts gentlemanly should have no need to let everyone around him know.

-River



"ALAYS have to suspect his motives..."
Yeh, sadly, I agree with you... in the sense that you should not "trust him" (or her, for that matter). On the other hand, "for internal voice" I tend to give the person the benefit of the doubt: Ie: I don't assume they are "poorly motivated"; but yet don't trust based on it. I know, it sounds contradictory, but there's important reasons to reflect this way.

Regarding the gentlemenly thing; mostly yes. If I hold the door, if the lady is clearly not comfortable, I don't make a fuss about it, I just go, and don't look back (well, other than to make sure that horrible clunking sound wasn't her getting knocked off her feet by the door (kidding, well mostly)). If you are referencing Browncoat1 above, we are in a "discussion mode" about things we think and feel; and I'd take this conversation to be a statement of things we might not normally state in a standard social interaction.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:51 AM

FLATTOP


I try to be polite to everyone. Ma'am, miss & sir are frequently used parts of my vocabulary. I address people by their surname (if I know it) unless they ask me not to. I don't generally speak to people I don't know unless they address me first.
I open doors for people if we happen to reach them at close to the same time, or if they are coming towards a door that I want to pass through in the opposite direction.
If a man holding the door upsets you, think of it as a traffic flow solution. He's already come to a stop, and the obstruction (door) removed from your path. Just walk on through without breaking stride. It makes getting through the doorway faster for everyone.
I'm confused on the 'suspecting his motives' part. If nothing other than, "Thank you" (or less) comes out of your mouth when someone holds the door, what is the potential harm? If he tries chatting you up then yes, you may have to shut him down but otherwise, I don't see the issue (perhaps that simply proves I'm from an older school).
I do admit to being privately amused (as in I may grin, just a bit, though I try to avoid even that much of a display) when my wife warns me, without any strain in her voice, that a box she is handing me is heavy. That's just her being polite.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 10:32 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It is a shame that some people see chivalry as men being "idiots". My mother raised me be polite and kind to women, to treat them as the fairer sex. Note I did NOT say "weaker" sex. I respect and admire women and as a Southern male I was raised to be a gentleman in all respects when dealing with a woman.

Yes, I hold doors for a woman, I will help her carry packages, help her pick things up if she drops them, etc. It is not because I think a woman is "weak", needs my help, or is somehow incapable of doing things for herself, rather it is because I was raised to respect and revere women.

It is a shame that some women would feel I am "patronizing" them as that is not the intention. I weep for a world where a man is chivalrous and is found to be "idiotic".






I don't see why it has to be a "shame." Did it occur to you how patronizing the so-call chivalrous man is? He thinks that his actions of kindness and gentleman like behavior should be given a special name "Chivalry." Did it occur to you that some women don't like that garbage?

If my car broke down on the side of the road the last thing I would think of is to call a man to help me. I am able to help myself. If another car stopped on the side of the road and it was a man wanting to give me a helping hand, I'd tell him to take a hike. If I want help from a man I would ask for it. I hate when men try to force their help on me and then get their feelings hurt when I tell them to fuck off. It's like guys think every body fucking needs them; what egos!

Your problem is that you were brain-washed into thinking that we woman need your help, and adding the word "shame" to it all just because I don't agree with your prime-directive, brain-washing.

Chivalrous indeed! He has to have a special name for it. We women can take care of ourselves and don't need a chivalrous guy hanging around trying to be Superman.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 10:41 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

When a man is "nice" to a woman she will ALWAYS have to suspect his motives. That is just a modern day reality.



What if a woman is nice to you? Do you react the same way? And what do you consider "nice" and what is nice? Is the treshhold different with men and women? Why?

What motives do you suspect in a man holding open a door for you that a woman wouldn't have?

Quote:


When a guy openly voices his treatment of woman as being respectful, or gentlemanly, in my opinion that's a red flag because a person that genuinely acts gentlemanly should have no need to let everyone around him know.



How often do men unmotivatedly and publically proclaim that they generally act gentlemanly toward women? I'm kind of confused where you're taking this from.




If I don't know the male clown who is holding a door open for me I deny him his little "chivalrous" moment just to let him know that what I think he's doing is patronizing. If a woman held a door open for me it would not matter if I knew her or not. Her act is a no-strings-attached human moment, and I would walk through that door without thinking anything about it.

I don't think that there is a guy on this miserable rock we call Earth, who doesn't have some kind of hidden motive when he does something nice for a woman.

I guess my issue here is I simply don't trust men at all. The have never given me any reason to do so; not ever.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 10:50 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

I don't think that there is a guy on this miserable rock we call Earth, who doesn't have some kind of hidden motive when he does something nice for a woman.

I guess my issue here is I simply don't trust men at all. The have never given me any reason to do so; not ever.



So, you're admitting that the actual issue you have is you.

That's a good place to start.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:00 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

I don't think that there is a guy on this miserable rock we call Earth, who doesn't have some kind of hidden motive when he does something nice for a woman.

I guess my issue here is I simply don't trust men at all. The have never given me any reason to do so; not ever.



So, you're admitting that the actual issue you have is you.

That's a good place to start.



Sure I do, but I'm not the only one, so this isn't about me. I just don't like being patronized, and men are really in the the big patronization act. You see it everywhere. You see in in board meetings, you see it in stores. It's everywhere. I long ago figured out that I can't stop it from happening, but I can stop it from happening to ME, so I'm a total rude bitch when a guy comes along and decides to be a knight in shiny armor, or a Superman. It gets under my skin.

-River



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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:03 AM

AGENTROUKA


So, a woman helping you is alright, but a man helping you is not.

So what makes a man helping you more patronizing than a woman helping you?

Your own prejudice. You treat one gender as inherently bad, but expect others to treat men and women as equals. That is contradictory.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:05 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So, a woman helping you is alright, but a man helping you is not.

So what makes a man helping you more patronizing than a woman helping you?

Your own prejudice. You treat one gender as inherently bad, but expect others to treat men and women as equals. That is contradictory.



A woman helping me is a no-strings-attached situation. A guy helping me always cames with a price, and yes men are bad. I have no other evidence that suggests men are good.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:10 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So, a woman helping you is alright, but a man helping you is not.

So what makes a man helping you more patronizing than a woman helping you?

Your own prejudice. You treat one gender as inherently bad, but expect others to treat men and women as equals. That is contradictory.



A woman helping me is a no-strings-attached situation. A guy helping me always cames with a price, and yes men are bad. I have no other evidence that suggests men are good.

-River



By your logic, a man who has never met any strong, capable woman and instead only manipulative, weak ones is justified in considering all women weak, manipulative, incapable and unworthy of respect and treating them accordingly.

Would you sign that as your opinion? Personal experience is the only deciding factor in terms of how all members of a gender should be judged or treated? No benefit of the doubt? Innocent until proven guilty (in issues not concerning immediate personal safety)?

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:11 AM

SAFEAT2ND


See, I don't know where this is going or where it came from, but I have to agree with BC1 or anyone else (male or female) that practice politeness.

I think that if we look at everyone like they have an ulterior motive; we are just accelerating mankind down the path of Chaos to Mad Maxville. You've got to cut people some slack. Yes there are a lot of real losers out there, but there are still people that have no ulterior motive than to want a polite smile and a thank-you. That is exactly what I would give you if the rolls were reversed.

The flip side of the argument could hold true as well, in that if you held the door open for me and I accepted, would that make me less of a man? Are you holding the door because you think I'm too weak to do it myself? And what would the guys think if I let a WOMAN hold the door for me? (no, I don't actually think this way)

C'mon. We aren't Neanderthals anymore... well, most of us aren't. I relish the differences between men and women. Women have their own unique strengths and weakness. Not that they are weak by any stretch of the imagination.

I refuse to be crammed into the stereo-typical 'MAN' category. In fact I will argue vehemently with you if you do. I am more romantic than my wife (not mushy romantic either), but she is extremely more intelligent than I am. Its yin and yang, its part of nature.

Is there anything wrong with treating women with a little more courtesy? I mean after all, they bear our children, temper out tempers, and have the patience to deal with all our faults as men like burping, farting, chest thumping and “knuckle dragging.”

So when I hold the door for you, it's is just that. I'm holding the door. Accept it at face value. I've been married happily for 16yrs and I'm not looking anything more than a thank-you.

Like someone said before, I'm holding the door simply because I got there first. That and it’s the right thing to do. I’m not ready to stop being human quite yet.
*****

Back to the question at hand, should we be treated differently? Hell yes. Everyone is different and the way I deal with one person, may not work with the next regardless of gender.

I think the equality thing gets out of hand. A person should be hired for a job IF they meet the requirements for said job. As long as that happens, I don’t care really what gender you are. Are you qualified? Yep? Good enough for me. What burns my a** is the governments attitude that they have to be politically correct and hire by niche instead of whether that person is the most qualified to do the job.


_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."


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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:43 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't think that there is a guy on this miserable rock we call Earth, who doesn't have some kind of hidden motive when he does something nice for a woman.


Wow. I'm clearly not going to convince you otherwise on a forum like this.
Quote:


I guess my issue here is I simply don't trust men at all. The have never given me any reason to do so; not ever.


I do hope something happens to change your mind that at lease "some" guys aren't so untrust worthy.
===
Quote:

Originally posted by safeat2nd:
See, I don't know where this is going or where it came from


Well, it came from getting booted out of a thread, so we came here to discuss a few things. Going... perhaps no where; it's a discussion. That can happen.

I concur with most of your post; "but there are still people that have no ulterior motive than to want a polite smile and a thank-you."
I'd contend there's even folks content to pass on the polite smile and the thank-you.

"And what would the guys think if I let a WOMAN hold the door for me?"
Eh, hmmm. I'm not sure it would register and I'd think anything of it. If it did, I'd think, "how nice".


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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:50 AM

SAFEAT2ND


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:

Originally posted by safeat2nd:
See, I don't know where this is going or where it came from


Well, it came from getting booted out of a thread, so we came here to discuss a few things. Going... perhaps no where; it's a discussion. That can happen.

I concur with most of your post; "but there are still people that have no ulterior motive than to want a polite smile and a thank-you."
I'd contend there's even folks content to pass on the polite smile and the thank-you.

"And what would the guys think if I let a WOMAN hold the door for me?"
Eh, hmmm. I'm not sure it would register and I'd think anything of it. If it did, I'd think, "how nice".



Ooop. I forgot to put the eyerolling smilie. I was being facetious. I don't think that way, but I unfortunately do know some guys that do.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."


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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:13 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So, a woman helping you is alright, but a man helping you is not.

So what makes a man helping you more patronizing than a woman helping you?

Your own prejudice. You treat one gender as inherently bad, but expect others to treat men and women as equals. That is contradictory.



A woman helping me is a no-strings-attached situation. A guy helping me always cames with a price, and yes men are bad. I have no other evidence that suggests men are good.

-River



By your logic, a man who has never met any strong, capable woman and instead only manipulative, weak ones is justified in considering all women weak, manipulative, incapable and unworthy of respect and treating them accordingly.

Would you sign that as your opinion? Personal experience is the only deciding factor in terms of how all members of a gender should be judged or treated? No benefit of the doubt? Innocent until proven guilty (in issues not concerning immediate personal safety)?



This is not about logic, it's about experience and my experience with men says that they are one dimensioned, fiends, with only one mission. If a guy is being nice or kind to you it's within your best interests to find out what he really wants. Guys cannot be trusted, and never, ever turn your back on them.

Don't attempt to box me in a corner with your queries. It won't work. You cannot change my mind regarding men. I know men and all men are pigs to be gutted.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:38 PM

13


Quote:

I know men and all men are pigs to be gutted.


What about man-boys? Are we pigs yet? ('we' meaning 'me', BTB)



Q: Fish or Hogarth?
A: Marillion.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:45 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by 13:
Quote:

I know men and all men are pigs to be gutted.


What about man-boys? Are we pigs yet? ('we' meaning 'me', BTB)



Q: Fish or Hogarth?
A: Marillion.



Stupid question to be asking me. You are at a going-to-hurt-some girl-in-training period, so yes, when you eventually hurt some woman because of some selfish goal, or want that you have, you will graduate to a pig to be gutted.

Being a man-to-be you are are going to be part of a legacy of ill-mannered, thoughtless creeps. Deal with it, and move on man-boy.

I am too mean and too unforgiving. I see that now. No wonder I got my ass banned from this board.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:04 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Don't attempt to box me in a corner with your queries. It won't work. You cannot change my mind regarding men. I know men and all men are pigs to be gutted.

-River



Not attempting any convincing. I was just pointing out that you are contradicting yourself and are undermining your own call for respect.


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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:27 AM

ZOID



Longtime eNTP. A real fan of MBTI, since I find it more useful than IQ (154). Intelligence is more of a hindrance than a help, in my experience. It only tends to alienate. Knowing your transactional type gives the individual something to work with when trying to improve oneself (a perpetual goal to which I am motivated).

...My left hand is different from my right hand. Although they are similar in dimensions, they are in fact opposite (though not opposed, at least as far as I can tell; I've never caught them conspiring against one another when they thought I wasn't looking).

...I am right-handed. I can do more with my right hand. Other people are left-handed, and can do more with their left hand. I was involved in a motorcycle accident, now I must do more with my left hand, although I cannot do those things as well; my brain is simply not wired correctly to allow me to be successfully left-handed (6 years later, and shaving is still a bitch).

...Although my right hand and left hand are both hands, for me, my right hand is dominant or 'better'. And yet, if I had two right hands, I wouldn't be able to get anything done. Quite apart from looking more than a little odd if I had two right hands, picking up a child, hugging people (which I don't do a lot of, but when I do, it's special to me), or carrying anything would be darned near impossible.

...I'm glad I have both a right hand and a left hand. Both are required in order for me to operate according to spec. I suspect left-handed people feel exactly the same way.

...Of course, if one is truly ambidextrous (as opposed to ambidextrous by assiduous practice), this analogy may have less appeal...



Non-Sinisterly,

zoid

P.S.
I often open doors for women as a means of initiating sexual congress with them. Doesn't everybody?
_________________________________________________

"She was in Congress?" -Jayne 'Man Parts' Cobb, "Objects in Space", Firefly

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 12:52 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

I don't see why it has to be a "shame." Did it occur to you how patronizing the so-call chivalrous man is? He thinks that his actions of kindness and gentleman like behavior should be given a special name "Chivalry." Did it occur to you that some women don't like that garbage?




Blame the time in which the name "chivalry" came from. Of course all of those people are long since dust so I doubt if they give one wit about your opinion or not.


Quote:

If my car broke down on the side of the road the last thing I would think of is to call a man to help me. I am able to help myself. If another car stopped on the side of the road and it was a man wanting to give me a helping hand, I'd tell him to take a hike.



Then by all means, do the male gender a favor and fly a flag from your car that says "Male Hater! Don't help me because I will be ungrateful."

Seriously, what is your issue? If someone tries to help you, as an act of kindness, you are going to be rude, ungrateful, and beligerent? How is that making the world a better place? It is just such attitudes that is making the world such a dismal place to live in.


Quote:

If I want help from a man I would ask for it. I hate when men try to force their help on me and then get their feelings hurt when I tell them to fuck off. It's like guys think every body fucking needs them; what egos!



Not sure what kind of people you have encountered, but I don't force anything on anyone, let alone my help. If a woman, or even a man for that matter, refuses my help I'll just shrug and walk off. It doesn't "hurt my feelings" and certainly not my pride. My chivalrous attitude is done as a genuine act of kindness, not some selfish need to inflate my male ego or to express dominance over a woman.


Quote:

Your problem is that you were brain-washed into thinking that we woman need your help, and adding the word "shame" to it all just because I don't agree with your prime-directive, brain-washing.



I didn't realize that being kind and a gentlemen was a "problem". Seems the only problem in this thread, or this board, is your constant need for attention and a venue to spread your venomous rants against men and religion. I pity you and your "I'm and island" attitude. Unlike you I will respect your stance and your right to it.


Quote:

Chivalrous indeed! He has to have a special name for it. We women can take care of ourselves and don't need a chivalrous guy hanging around trying to be Superman.



Good luck taking care of yourself. It certainly hasn't made you bitter or anything.

Oh, by the by, when did the female gender appoint you their spokewoman (or is that spokesperson)? My wife and mother don't remember getting a vote.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

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Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:28 AM

FLATTOP


You are in an accident, rendered unconcious, and bleeding profusely.
Would you want a male passerby to summon emergency medical assistance? You most certainly did not ask for his help, but quite obviously are in need of assistance.
What of a passing, off duty, male trauma surgeon? Should he stop to assist you? Sure it's his job, but he's off the clock, and you didn't ask him to...


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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:07 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
This is not about logic, it's about experience and my experience with men says that they are one dimensioned, fiends, with only one mission.


Experience is a rough teacher; and her lessons are hard to ignore. It saddens me your experiences have been thus. I would hope that your future experiences will be better, but I fear it is unlikely because most decent guys will allow you the space you put between yourself and men.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by FlatTop:
You are in an accident, rendered unconcious, and bleeding profusely.
Would you want a male passerby to summon emergency medical assistance? You most certainly did not ask for his help, but quite obviously are in need of assistance.
What of a passing, off duty, male trauma surgeon? Should he stop to assist you? Sure it's his job, but he's off the clock, and you didn't ask him to...




Not a really good set of examples, as we're talking abou help that is offered out of kindness and politeness, not ethical obligation.

If her car breaks down. she really may not need any help. Whether offering it anyway is a signal of oppression or of plain human kindness is the question.

Or, it is to some. *shrugs*

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:17 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


Off shift I'm not convinced a trauma surgeon would be ethically obliged, morally, perhaps, depending on his or her own particular set of moral values.

As for doors, they're a funny one, door etiquette is complicated at my work because it's a locked door unit, and we can't leave unlocked doors unattended. Personally, I don't open doors for people, but if a group of people are passing through at the same time, then I'll hold it until the next person, be they male or female, has a hand to it. If someone is coming down a corridor behind me, I'll check to see if they're coming through the door, and if so hold it until they catch up. I probably wouldn't stand carefully and lock it behind them, we've all got a set of keys after all. Your attitude there, River 6213, would simply result in you looking at a locked door, I'm all for being polite to people, but if they don't intend to reciprocate, I don't feel any obligation to try and help in any other way.

Outside work, I'd do more or less the same, if someone is coming through a door after me, I'll hold it until they catch it. Again, regardless of gender.

And do try to be less abusive towards people on the basis of their gender.

On another note, Zoid, I beat you by 3 points xD

(Just a little male competitiveness for the benefit of any who may seize on it ^^ )

Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things.
Many of them were driven to these things by a horrible force called Music.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:20 AM

KHYRON


Would some guy on this board have the same opinion of women as River has of men (and would he be as open about it as River is), I bet you almost everybody on the board would be in this thread shouting him down as a sexist Nazi bastard, some would probably even mail Haken to get him banned.

Ah, the beauty of hypocrisy... but what do I know. The only reason I looked at this thread was because I wanted to say something chivalrous that'd impress all the chicks on here so that I could bone them.



Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:23 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


Whatever the opinion, however distasteful I find it, they still have a right to hold it and, so long as they can try to avoid causing too much offense to those around them, every right to express it.




Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things.
Many of them were driven to these things by a horrible force called Music.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:35 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
Whatever the opinion, however distasteful I find it, they still have a right to hold it and, so long as they can try to avoid causing too much offense to those around them, every right to express it.

I agree. Did you see me saying she shouldn't say what she wants? No? Okay then.

I said that would it be the other around, there'd be a huge fuss about it. This underwhelming response to River's bigoted opinion of men just illustrates the hypocrisy becoming more prevalent in society where bitching about men and perpetuating a wrong image of their motives is fine, but bitching about women is a cause for an inquisition.



Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:59 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
Whatever the opinion, however distasteful I find it, they still have a right to hold it and, so long as they can try to avoid causing too much offense to those around them, every right to express it.

I agree. Did you see me saying she shouldn't say what she wants? No? Okay then.

I said that would it be the other around, there'd be a huge fuss about it. This underwhelming response to River's bigoted opinion of men just illustrates the hypocrisy becoming more prevalent in society where bitching about men and perpetuating a wrong image of their motives is fine, but bitching about women is a cause for an inquisition.




Steady now, maybe I picked up the wrong end of the stick, but slow down a little and remember how easily a tone can appear harsh online.

Whilst we agree that everyone has a right to hold pretty unpleasant opinions, I'd be slightly less inclined to look at the big, downfall of society picture, and take it as a nice thing that, in one case, people are actually allowing someone the right to hold a controversial opinion. Maybe it'll catch on, and we, here, now, will usher in a new age of pleasantry and enlightenment. Although I must admit to a little scepticism there. As far as who it's more acceptable to bitch about, I figure that kinda thing goes full circle every so often anyway, it's not worth getting too het up as it goes.

But, you know, I'm male, and in certain opinions, only saying what I'm saying because I want to get into someone's pants. Not sure who, internet relationships aren't my thing, but someone's, it seems.

Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things.
Many of them were driven to these things by a horrible force called Music.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:10 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
Whatever the opinion, however distasteful I find it, they still have a right to hold it and, so long as they can try to avoid causing too much offense to those around them, every right to express it.

I agree. Did you see me saying she shouldn't say what she wants? No? Okay then.

I said that would it be the other around, there'd be a huge fuss about it. This underwhelming response to River's bigoted opinion of men just illustrates the hypocrisy becoming more prevalent in society where bitching about men and perpetuating a wrong image of their motives is fine, but bitching about women is a cause for an inquisition.



Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.



I have to agree with Khyron.

If it was a man spitting vitriol about women because "he never had reason to believe otherwise", people would be reacting a lot more vehemently, and it's not helping either side to just let it slide when the irrational prejudice is directed at men.

It's hateful blather, nothing else.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:24 AM

KHYRON


Oddsboskins,

Sorry, I thought you were accusing me of wanting to suppress freedom of expression, that's why I got sarcastic.

The hypocrisy I was talking about is a result of political correctness gone too far, and it gets me a little worked up. My issue isn't River's opinion, which I couldn't care about less and doesn't bother me, it's the dichotomy in people's reactions to such confrontational opinions. When River says that stuff, she does so as someone from a "previously oppressed background" (in this case, women) and people respond by being slightly bemused and try to reason with her (good reaction, I'm absolutely fine with it and glad people react in such a sensible way), but would it be a male poster expressing his hatred for women, we all know what would happen. Apart from the plethora of personal attacks against the poster, we'd have a ton of pretentious, chest-pounding, protecting the damsel-in-distress, woman-protecting, hero of Canton speeches.

Actually, River should get more worked up about people's reactions to her posts in this thread than anything else.

River,

Don't you realise people here are being patronising towards you? You come with a confrontational opinion and most of them go "There there, not all men are as bad as they seem, it's okay". Instead of men, you should be attacking everybody here who responds to your posts politely (since you hate patronising behaviour so much).

AgentRouka,

Kudos to your reactions to River's posts. Would those sort of logical, sensible and reasoned responses be the norm when sexism goes the other way I wouldn't be having this little diatribe.



Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:10 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


Well, perhaps so, but short of creating an alternate username, I'm not sure how we can test the theory.

Maybe we're patronising her, Hidunno, personally, she can think it all she likes, I got no objection to that, not inclined to much like her personally as a result of those opinions, but that's my business, not the boards.

I'd take the same point of view if it were a bloke posting, although I suspect that wouldn't make me terribly popular.

Yes I agree, sorry, forgot to say that. Such hypocrisy is deeply unpleasant, I'm just not prepared to latch on and have a go at someone just to make sure we react to everyone the same

Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things.
Many of them were driven to these things by a horrible force called Music.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:35 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
Yes I agree, sorry, forgot to say that. Such hypocrisy is deeply unpleasant, I'm just not prepared to latch on and have a go at someone just to make sure we react to everyone the same

I'm not either, I'd rather we respond to sexist statements (or any form of bigotry) as AgentRouka and co. are doing in this thread (i.e. calmly pointing out the illogical and senseless aspects of that person's arguments - regardless of the backgrounds of the person spewing the vitriol and the objects of their hate), instead of abusing that person verbally and then thumping one's own chest.

Anyway, it didn't happen in this thread, I just wanted to make people ponder that inconsistency for a bit.



Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:06 AM

CONSTANCE


This is such a shiny thread.. quite fun to read. I like men and everybody really to be nice and holding doors and what not. If a door holding man makes some idiotic comment while holding the door, he gets one back.. only a smart one
I claim the right to be treated with respect and appreciate the "chivalry" or whatever one wants to call it, without having to worry about the thought behind. When and if that thought becomes apparent I can hold my own.

I do however hate men that insists on buying drinks (men I dont know) and when their offer is declined gets pissed off because I suspect a not so chivalrous motive. And I dont need to be protected in discussions or arguments either. I will ask for help when I need it thank you very much.Pre emptive protectiveness from guys are well ment Im sure but very annoying.



Constance

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:29 AM

SAFEAT2ND


I agree Constance, this IS a good discussion.

And I also agree with you that there are guys that use what they think of a chivalry to their own ends. Hopefully those guys are few and far between.

In the truest sense, chivalry is a politeness, a courtesy to others. At least that's the way I look at it and from the sounds of it a lot of others in this discussion do as well.

It helps to restore some of my faith in humanity (not completely, mind you, but it helps none the less). There are actually good people out there.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."


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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:42 AM

CONSTANCE


Quote:

Originally posted by safeat2nd:


And I also agree with you that there are guys that use what they think of a chivalry to their own ends. Hopefully those guys are few and far between.

In the truest sense, chivalry is a politeness, a courtesy to others. At least that's the way I look at it and from the sounds of it a lot of others in this discussion do as well.

It helps to restore some of my faith in humanity (not completely, mind you, but it helps none the less). There are actually good people out there.

_______________________________________________________________




not as few and as far between as I would like, but Im to lazy to go around and thinking the worst about folk. Im all for everybody start behaving... manners and politness and all that. Makes everything a whole lot easier. Not that every polite person nessesarily is a good person, but only a bad person that its easier to be around.. Even if the niceness is fake, its better than outright rudeness and people pulling eachother down...

This ofcourse applies to both sexes.

What I have always found a bit patronizing is the idea that hitting a woman is so much worse than hitting a man. That means that I cant hit men that think so, cause they will just stand there.. "I dont hit women so.. nanananana". I am aware that its not meant this way, but it sure as hell feels that way.. cant we just agree that hitting people, men or women, should be reserved for very special occations...?

Constance

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:55 AM

SHIMAUMA


Dang I got in on this late but I think you made a brilliantly simple observation Casual

Quote:

I think there are differences between men and women that go beyond sexual apparatus.

*ducks for cover*



Men and women are different, physically and mentally, it's why we complement each other so well. It's those who try to twist and warp this concept that usually cause most of the problems. I could go in depth more, but I'm on my lunch hour...and as much as I'd love to be a homemaker my leftarded blue state taxes us beyond a one income ability. Thanks to feminazi organizations like *NOW* we're forced into the drudgery of the office and made to send our kids into impersonalized substandard care.

You open those doors and lift those packages for me all you want. Guys like that are awesome!


Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. ~ Psalm 144:1

Jayne Cobb: Shepherd Book once said to me, "If you can't do something smart, do something RIGHT."

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:33 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If a guy opens a door for me, unless I know him I don't pass through it. I just stare at him as the patronizing jack-ass that he is until he shrugs and goes through the door himself. I ignore guys who offer me special favors with the automatic assumption that I need it; I see guys like this as complete idiots. I hate the sort of guy that was raised to patronize women with the assumption that she is weak and needs him.



Something for you to consider: I actually open the door for everybody--male or female. I figure that it is just a courteous thing to do, and a very easy way to do something nice for someone. It's my understanding that most men who open doors for women do so as a sign of respect--just the opposite of the patronizing attitude you described. They are trying to do something nice not because the woman can't do it for herself, but as a way of giving her honor. It's like taking one's hat off when the flag goes by--it's done not because the flag needs you to or expects you to or even wants you to, but because one wishes to show honor and respect to the flag. Perhaps the men who open the door are saying, "I value you as a person" instead of "You can't do this yourself."

I was once given the advice that if a woman objected to a door being opened for her, I ought to reply, "I didn't open the door because you're a woman; I did it because I'm a gentleman." I don't think I would actually do that, because it might come off as confrontational, but the point of the phrase is that door-opening has more to do with the opener that with the opened-for. Gentlemen respect and value women and one way of expressing that is opening doors.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:00 AM

MAL4PREZ


OK, so... I'm a woman who went through a phase of severe annoyance with the door thing. It is rather silly, the lengths some men will go through to hold a damned door, completely messing up the traffic flow so they can play the proper role.

These days, I tend to go with it, but make a point of grabbing a door knob and standing aside when it's convenient for me to do so, returning the favor. This has confused some of the men I work with, but it sent them the message I wanted without being an attack on their habits.

It's even a bit of a joke - one of my co-workers, an older fella from the South, had been at peace with me re the door thing. Then he saw me in a dance concert, doing a duet that was rather... passionate (hey - in an *artsy* way! nothing X-rated!) and suddenly he was all about running ahead to open doors for me. As if I had been revealed as a feminine sexual object and required different treatment. Just silly.

How'd I deal with it? Made fun of him. He got over it, we're still friends, and the door opening is back to being about traffic flow.

Really, River, there's few situations that a sense of humor won't help. Make fun of the guys, make fun of yourself. You'd be surprised how much it helps. They're just as human as we are.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:17 AM

COZEN


Context is so important. I hope that the following makes sense to most of y'all.

Long ago, in a university's quadrangle far away, I once took a few quick steps in order to get ahead of a blind person -- with doggie -- in order to open a door. Imagine the scenario: healthy me, and a sight-challenged person about to approach an obstacle. Well, even as I was opening the door, sight-challenged (let's face facts: blind) person initiated a rant, the jist of which was how I was ignorantly confusing the dog by my quick action. The theme of her discourse was, "don't do it again". The well trained dog being the "x" factor that I didn't suss at the time, kinda like the way in which historically established male-female relationships, despite the vast amount of detail, isn't being accepted at face value in this thread.

All I'm saying is that when we are opening doorsT for other peeps, our intentions can be no more than a kindness to others. This applies regardless of gender. I, for one, willingly open doors for anyone, regardless of gender, with no expectation of getting laid. (And I'll thank those with the extra Y chomosome to ignore me completely in that [/] way eh?)

The point is: why can't we just be kind to anyone? The time for 'sexual congress' is defined by a wide array of parameters, is it not? Such that it has more to do with opening an actual door, or stopping to help with a flat tire or somesuch.

Again with context: if a male opens a door for RiveR, can't she just be happy enough to walk through that door and get on with her life, without worrying about his intents at 'congress'? After all, by the time she takes the elevator to whatever floor that is different from his destination, who cares?

If I were a woman, a cynical woman to boot, I'd be happy to make use of the little advantages those naive chauvinistic males make for me. Why worry?


***
Opening the doors of awareness is what this is all about, right?

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