GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Family In The Jossverse

POSTED BY: DEEPGIRL187
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 08:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 985
PAGE 1 of 1

Monday, June 11, 2007 5:06 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I don't know if something like this has been posted before, but I figure I'll take a stab at it.

Where do you guys think family has succeeded the most in the Jossverse? My obvious choice is Firefly, but not because it's my favorite show. The characters were there for each other, and were able to put aside differences and personal problems for the good of all.

In Buffy and Angel, family was also an important theme, but I don't think the characters held things together as well. In Angel, personal problems tended to interfere with their family life, though I'd still say they were more cohesive than on Buffy. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes I got the feeling the Scoobies only had each other's backs to a point (and yes, I know I'm gonna get flak for that one, it's just my opinion).

So what's everyone else say?

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 6:25 AM

DEEPGIRL187


*bumpity bump*

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 6:35 AM

AGENTROUKA


In the defense of Buffy and Angel, I think Firefly is actually the weakest link, there.

Buffy's and Angel's characters had deep bonds all among each other, but on Firefly the central link is just Mal.

Without Mal, they'd fall apart, unless the point was to get Mal back. Mal's love for them keeps them a family. I don't see Jayne or Inara sticking around should Mal die. I don't think Kaylee would be very happy if Zoe was supposed to be her authority figure and focus point. All the crew relationships beside Zoe/Wash and Simon&River are unstable. They might form individual "teams" but they don't form a loving family as a whole.

On Buffy, Xander and Willow were the original core and created something like a holy trinity with Buffy, which always seemed more stable to me. Even when one got wonky, the other two remained and held the flock stable.

On Angel, they stuck together, even when Angel got all sulky on them. They would have continued to stick together, even without him.


At the early point at which Firefly was canceled, the crew doesn't beat the other two series families, in my eyes.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 6:58 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I have to disagree. I think the bond that Serenity's crew has is deeper than that. It isn't just Mal that they rally around; hell, Jayne likes Wash more than Mal, I'd guess, and he would have left ages ago if Mal wa sthe only thing keeping him there. I think they could go on without Mal around, though it would be difficult without their leader.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 7:17 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I have to disagree. I think the bond that Serenity's crew has is deeper than that. It isn't just Mal that they rally around; hell, Jayne likes Wash more than Mal, I'd guess, and he would have left ages ago if Mal wa sthe only thing keeping him there. I think they could go on without Mal around, though it would be difficult without their leader.



But why would they want to? They aren't fighting a common enemy like the families on Buffy and Angel, they're just a business with a family attached. There's not greater good to follow. So their bonds are the only thing can counts and...

...who on the crew has strong bonds?

River and Simon.

Zoe and Wash.

Kaylee and Inara are friends, but is that a reason to stay together indefinitely?

Kaylee and Simon have lust and romance, but hardly a stable friendship.

Jayne likes Kaylee and respects Zoe, but he has no bond to anyone else but the Shepherd.

Book is a sheltering presence, and might decide to stay, but I doubt anyone would stay because of him.

Siblings and married folks aside, each crewmember's main relationship is with Mal. He's the knot that ties them together.


Over the course of the show, this might have changed. We might have seen Zoe and River bond more (which would be essential to Zoe taking over Mal's guardian function) and Inara might have formed closer ties with Wash, Zoe and Book. Book might have gotten more involved in the ship's business. Simon and Jayne might have developed an unlikely, mutually beneficial friendship. But at the stage we have seen, the ties amongst the crew are fairly loose.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 7:37 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
But why would they want to? They aren't fighting a common enemy like the families on Buffy and Angel, they're just a business with a family attached. There's not greater good to follow. So their bonds are the only thing can counts and...



But there is a greater good that was established. Freedom. To a certain extent, it's why they've all gathered on the ship. And if they were able to find that somewhere else, on the terms they desired, there'd be no reason for them to stay as long as they have. I mean, the differences that each of them have with one another are as such that if it were just a working relationship, none of the crew would have stayed on the boat in the first place.

You are right in that we haven't seen enough yet to know exactly what will happen. But I think that a strong enough base has been given here that if even if the crew aren't the strongest of family units in the Jossverse, I think that it would grow to be.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 9:27 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:

But there is a greater good that was established. Freedom. To a certain extent, it's why they've all gathered on the ship. And if they were able to find that somewhere else, on the terms they desired, there'd be no reason for them to stay as long as they have. I mean, the differences that each of them have with one another are as such that if it were just a working relationship, none of the crew would have stayed on the boat in the first place.



Of course, they would have stayed. It's a job for most of them, so why not stay? That's the point of a working relationship: putting up with people you don't necessarily love, for the practical value of it.


Quote:

You are right in that we haven't seen enough yet to know exactly what will happen. But I think that a strong enough base has been given here that if even if the crew aren't the strongest of family units in the Jossverse, I think that it would grow to be.



You're right, they would have grown to be. That would have been the point of the show. :) But they weren't there yet, where we left them.


The possibilities for their bonding are so many!

Anyone else think that Simon and Jayne would have ended up being a kick-ass Butch and Sundance down the line? At least for a tiny episode arc?

Inara and Zoe might have bonded over Zoe's wish to be a mother - who but another "adult" woman could understand the complexities?

Wash may have shown his calm and heroic side being pal and confidant to River and Kaylee might have taught Book a thing or two about emotional fearlessness.



Damn, I hate that they canceled the show.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 10:07 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Spoilers for Buffy and Angel, people!

It's a recurring theme in Joss' work to have seemingly stable friendships fall apart only to come back stronger. The Buffy series was built on solid relationships from the very start - Buffy, Xander and Willow's friendship, Giles' duty to Buffy which gradually became fatherly love, Buffy's Mother who never stopped loving her difficult, violent daughter... even with these rock solid foundations, Buffy's life fell apart more than once. Actually, it fell apart almost every season but hey, that's wacky Joss for ya

Examples I can think of straight away are Buffy distancing herself from Willow and Xander in 'When She Was Bad', Buffy's Mother pretty much throwing her out in the season two finale, Buffy running away at the end of the same season and the massive strain all the friendships went through in seasons four, six and seven.

As for Angel, he had a bond with the people he worked with because they saved the world together and risked their lives for each other. I'm sure any military posters here can tell us how deep those kinds of bonds go. Even so, Angel's family fell spectacularly apart more than once. He fired everyone after he allowed Darla and Dru to kill most of the W&H Laywers. Wesley's doubts about Angel lead directly to the loss of Connor and Wes' exile from the team. I don't think anyone who has watched Angel can forget the scene where Angel is dragged away from Wes' hospital bed, screaming that he is going to kill him.

Part of the reason I found Firely so interesting was that the characters weren't immediatly part of a cohesive group. They were individuals with their own friendships, pairings, old loyalties and secret crushes. That's part of what made it so fascinating to watch, and I think it made the characters much more dynamic than early episodes of Buffy and Angel - which is saying a lot! In the others shows, we watched a family grow and change over time. In Firefly, we were watching a group of strangers start to become a family. They hadn't got there yet - the very fact that Book and Inara left before the events in the BDM shows that - but they were getting there. It kills me to think how much of that we've missed.




Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 10:59 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
As for Angel, he had a bond with the people he worked with because they saved the world together and risked their lives for each other. I'm sure any military posters here can tell us how deep those kinds of bonds go. Even so, Angel's family fell spectacularly apart more than once. He fired everyone after he allowed Darla and Dru to kill most of the W&H Laywers. Wesley's doubts about Angel lead directly to the loss of Connor and Wes' exile from the team. I don't think anyone who has watched Angel can forget the scene where Angel is dragged away from Wes' hospital bed, screaming that he is going to kill him.



Me being the Angel fan that I am, of course I'm going to have some qualms here.

When Angel fired everyone, I truly think he was trying to protect him. He knew how bad things could get between him and Darla, and he wanted them safe from the fallout. As for Wesley and Angel, I think Wesley's own father issues are what led him to doubt Angel. And I couldn't blame any parent for trying to kill the person that kidnapped their child. Maybe it isn't right, but you can't really expect someone to just forgive the person that stole one of the single most important things in your life away from you.

And I do agree; we were robbed of a great story.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 11, 2007 11:12 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


I think he was doing more than protecting them - I think he was deliberately cutting that part of his life out of his heart. I think he was hardening himself since he felt it was the only way he could face what was to come.

And I'm not saying Angel's reaction was wrong. Heck, even Wes' was understandable. It happened because, close as they were, Wes never truly trusted Angel.

You know, there's another aspect to this we haven't considered. Joss makes it very clear that people chose their true family. Many characters end up rejecting or being rejected by those they have blood ties to - Xander and his family, Willow and her parents, Tara and her father and brother, and of course Simon and River and their parents. That's pretty much what the Buffy season 5 episode "Family" was all about.

Of course with the vampire characters the blood ties run even deeper, and still Angel and Spike end up rejecting their sires in an effort to be better men.




Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 5:44 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
And I'm not saying Angel's reaction was wrong. Heck, even Wes' was understandable. It happened because, close as they were, Wes never truly trusted Angel.



I wouldn't say Wes never trusted Angel. With the father-issues that he has, it makes it difficult for him to have relationships with other men, especially ones he is subordinate to (or sees as a threat). And in any case, everyone has to have their guard up with Angel, due to the fact that Angelus could always potentially pop up.

*************************************************

"I'm so very sorry. My contrition completely dwarfs the impending apocalypse."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 7:09 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Really? I always thought it had been hinted that there were trust issues.

Okay, lets see what hints I can remember... 'I've Got You Under My Skin' - where the demon in the kid taunts Angel by saying Wesley wants to kill him. Afterwards Angel says "I know you don't want to kill me. But you're willing to. And that's good." Or something like that.

Then there's the bust up over Faith staying at Angel's place. Wesley helps Angel get Faith to safety and says "I trust you. Well, more than three gun toting council maniacs anyway." Or something like that. I'm remembering these off the top of my head, so I know my quotes are way wrong!

I think the biggest hint was during the season two finale where Wesley gives Angel a stirring pep-talk before he goes to fight the Groosalag. The one where he says "I believe you're a man with a demon inside, not the other way around." After telling Angel that he trusts him to go as far as he needs to and no further, and believes he will still have his soul after the fight, Gunn asks Wesley "Do you really believe that?" and Wes replies "I need him to believe it." Which of course leaves us just as stunned as Gunn.

That's just my reading of the show though, and it's been a while since I watched my DVDs. Must have another look...




Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:16 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I do see your point, but I think it has less to do with trust and more to do with Wesley's own issues. Take for instance where Wesley says "I need him to believe it." As leader, Wesley knew that tough decisions had to be made, and he was the only one to do them. The only problem with that line of thinking is that when said leader is wrong, there's no one else to pick up the slack. Wesley, because he's always been too proud, can't ask anyone to help him, or even explain his actions after the fact. I think issues like this one are what led to his exile from the group, and the whole Dark Wesley thing (which, consequently, made him look extremely yummy ).

*************************************************

"I'm so very sorry. My contrition completely dwarfs the impending apocalypse."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Losing Another FireFly Site ?
Sun, December 5, 2021 13:52 - 23 posts
William Shatner To Boldly Go To Space On Blue Origin Rocket
Thu, December 2, 2021 10:10 - 6 posts
How do Reavers pilot ships, them being insane cannibals and such?
Thu, December 2, 2021 10:06 - 189 posts
I think we may have lost a friend / Sister
Tue, November 23, 2021 03:53 - 17 posts
Brenda? Are You Watching FBI: Most Wanted?
Fri, November 19, 2021 23:09 - 106 posts
76th Independent Battalion Part 48
Wed, November 10, 2021 22:49 - 2347 posts
best sci-fi villans
Tue, November 2, 2021 19:23 - 59 posts
Thread of GIFs
Sat, October 30, 2021 16:22 - 11 posts
Just curious who is still here
Thu, October 28, 2021 07:09 - 30 posts
Browncoat Ball 2021 pics
Thu, October 28, 2021 07:05 - 11 posts
Nathan Fillion live tweeting premiere of The Rookie season 4. 10:00 eastern. Sunday 9/26/2021
Sun, September 26, 2021 21:00 - 1 posts
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ITSAWASH!!!!!
Sat, September 25, 2021 22:00 - 22 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL