GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Dumbest thing in FF/Serenity...

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, June 2, 2008 08:08
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7926
PAGE 2 of 2

Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:30 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Did you notice that Mal did the same with Simon in Bushwhacked? Told him to go get his sister without explaining that he'd be hiding them, not handing them over.



Yes, though, of course, he explained the plan to Simon during the commercial break so it's more a case of hiding the plan from the audience. I didn't see it as a test particularly.

Yeah, that commercial break trickiness... but here's the thing: Mal says go get your sister, Simon looks doubtful, then Book says: just do it son. Sure, at that point Mal might have explained, but I never imagine it that way. Mal's got that just do it cause I'm the captain and I said so dammit look and Simon's got that I don't like this but I guess I'm going to do it anyway look.

Maybe I'm just making that up. OK, I'm totally making it up, but I'd bet money that Mal didn't explain till Simon went and got River.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:40 PM

CHARLIEBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by LeopardFlan:



oops, I messed up the quote - You said, and I'm paraphrasing here: "no, the whore had the baby (I think)"

After Rance killed Nandi, he took the baby and ran away. So, I'm pretty sure that newborn was in the speeder as it flew away with no one at the wheel (or whatever steers it!).

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:00 PM

LEOPARDFLAN


Oh.

Another excuse to watch the series again, then

#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#\/#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#

Stan: LF! Stuffed LF!
Stan: That didn't sound right.. sorry. I'm not some psycho taxidermist serial killer or anything.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:00 PM

BLINDOUTLAW


What really bug me is the name Joey Blogs in the Train Job

What i mean is the name Joe Blogs is used to give a name to someone that has none, similar to the name John Doe given to unknown bodies at crime scenes. It just kinda seems that Joss and Tim were writing it and couldnt think of a name and just went "Joey Blogs, we'll come back and fix it later" but never did


either that or its just a fun way to say, Joey Blogs is dead so you don't feel bad when Mal says "So is his job open?"

----------------
That was when i found out my pants were on fire, and that's my Courageous story.



http://www.myspace.com/blindoutlaw

- Jimmy the Blindoutlaw

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:03 PM

CHARLIEBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by LeopardFlan:
Oh.

Another excuse to watch the series again, then




Don't ya just hate that?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 2:04 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by CharlieBZ:
After Rance killed Nandi, he took the baby and ran away. So, I'm pretty sure that newborn was in the speeder as it flew away with no one at the wheel (or whatever steers it!).



No Rance just ran. Baby was elsewhere by that time.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 2:08 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Maybe I'm just making that up. OK, I'm totally making it up, but I'd bet money that Mal didn't explain till Simon went and got River.



Well I won't take that bet though I still expect your wrong. Simon has an insane stubborn streak particularly as regards River.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 7:06 PM

TUJIAOZUO


Ok, so I just spent the last three days watching the entire series (with my friend, baptizing her Browncoat style) and after watching them all, I have a few big peeves that no one pointed out (though I agree with a couple previously posted)

OoG: Regardless of the fact that I loved the flashbacks and insite into how the crew joined up, the part where Mal got rid of the other pirates that wanted to take over Serenity was the worst piece of writing I have ever seen. An entire crew would not back away from a ship if one severly injured person with a small firearm was threatening them. That's so out there. even if he did point the gun at them and their captain, he's still injured and greatly outnumbered. What should have happened was they took over the ship and someone accidentally hit the call back button, returning the crew who fought the other crew back and saved Mal. I know it's probably nothing near what Tim Minear was trying to get to, but it would have been more plausible than Mal with a shot to the gut and a tiny gun scaring off an entire crew.

HoG: Besides the whole 'Rich man who practically owns the planet but has to rely on a prostetute to get a baby regardless he could pay for another alternative' plot hole, there's a two second shot of Rance holding his son where the baby is a doll. Plastic, completely fake, not even a good fake baby, but one that you find on sale at a toy store. Those two seconds bug the crap out of me more than Mal being able to chase the hovercraft down on a horse.

BDM: Simon. I can't stand him the entire movie until the very end, and he's one of my favorites (second to the captain, naturally). I don't why he was written or acted so stiffly and aggressively (to the point of barely emoting in the beginning, the 'this is anger' thing was the worst part, it's always easy to distinguish Simon being angry in the series), I understand the need and that his character had changed during the months between the series and the BDM, but there isn't a shred of the old character left. Not even a vest, which is something I think is as distinguishable to his character as the suspenders and brown coat is to Mal or the screened tees are to Jayne. It was just as dissapointing as hell to me. Everyone that watches the movie always tells me in the end that they couldn't stand him, I actually had my friend think he was a complete asshole until she watched the series, where she finally saw the character for who he was and loved him (second to the captain still, naturally).

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:54 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA


The one thing that has always, always bugged me was in HOG, after Rance takes the baby they cut to Nandi at the window, holding her shotgun, she turns when she here's the commotion and goes to check out why but LEAVES THE SHOTGUN BEHIND! Why? I mean she knows the men could get into the building, she heard the scuffle, but stupidly doesn't go armed because there needed to be a reason for Rance to kill her. I just thought it was a waste and an insult to the incredible character she was. Up to that point she was as smart, wise and strong as any of our BDH (smarter than some) but they make her have this stupid moment that costs her life. It was a cheap way of killing her off and I just hate when that scene comes up. I always scream at the TV "Take the BLOODY gun with you!"

Well, that's my cringe worthy moment. There are others but that one sticks out.

And those mentioning why Mal didn't tell Tracy, I felt that same way. The best way would have been for Mal to try to convince Tracy he was not going to turn him in, but Tracy not believing and taking Kaylee as a hostage.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


DON'T FREAK OUT

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:58 PM

DAVEGRINBERG


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
The idea really begins to unravel when folk start imputing big secrets to Book and Inara as well. That's where the storylines lose all credibility.



I for one was really looking forward to finding out some details on the good Sheppherd's obviously non-pastoral past. In fact one of the things I find so compelling about the show is that most of the characters have obviously rich story lines in their past that we never got to see more of. H E double hockey sticks - there's a whole season of material (or more) just in exploring some of that past material.

Select to view spoiler:


To me the dumbest thing in FF/BDM is the killing off of two of the major characters in the first movie - kind of backs Joss and Co into something of a corner for the future (assuming there will be one) of the franchise. Both Book and Wash are so popular that another season would almost half to pretend the movie didn't happen, or at least cover time between the end of the show and the start of the film. Perhaps there's some behind the scenes discussion with Tudyk or Glass that meant they had to wrap up the characters.



Of course with Joss, I have some faith that he could have/will be able to pull of a reasonable conversion.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 5:41 AM

SPACEANJL


Ah, what I meant by 'big secrets' was the sort of 'vital to the safety of the universe' type secrets, not 'life's rich tapestry' type secrets.

Book with dodgy past is a given, but Book with another secret that could bring down Parliament - no. Same with Inara.

And losing Wash? Big mistake. Huge. *waves shopping bags for emphasis*


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 12:46 PM

KNIGHTREYEDER


Wow, are we picking our fav series apart or what here? AND, the points are all good ones....

How about Wash's performance in the Message. It's always bugged me at how good a pilot he's supposed to be but they wanted us to believe he'd overlook something as simple as the botched getaway in the canyons.

I agree on the organ thing that someone else mentioned, weak. I would understand one badly needed organ being hooked up inside someone but replacing yours with a complete set.....come on.

I need to pimp for Serenity in the AMC blogs. If you're a true Browncoat please click the link in my signature and vote for our favorite ship, PLEASE!!??

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2008/05/coolest-starship-tourname
nt.php


Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 1:02 PM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by DaveGrinberg:

Select to view spoiler:


To me the dumbest thing in FF/BDM is the killing off of two of the major characters in the first movie - kind of backs Joss and Co into something of a corner for the future (assuming there will be one) of the franchise. Both Book and Wash are so popular that another season would almost half to pretend the movie didn't happen, or at least cover time between the end of the show and the start of the film. Perhaps there's some behind the scenes discussion with Tudyk or Glass that meant they had to wrap up the characters.



Of course with Joss, I have some faith that he could have/will be able to pull of a reasonable conversion.


(Anybody here not seen Serenity? Doubt it, but I'll keep the spoiler tags going anyway)

Select to view spoiler:



I think the reason is that Joss was hoping to do 2 more films and didn't feel that whereas a 20-episode TV show can take the time to develop 9 main characters, a couple of 2-hour movies would leave some of them on the sidelines. You can see this in some of the Trek films, where some of the crew barely get a line.



Plus, my theory is that Book was (originally), unbeknown to Simon, was the one who actually got River out of the academy and was following her (picking up *4* passengers with Big Secrets in the pilot in one go is rather more credible if they are all connected). If so, that would have got messed up when the BDM changed history to have Simon spring River himself (in order to re-introduce the characters)...







NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 2:35 PM

TRAVELER


In the "Message" I got the opinion that Mal was about to tell Tracey the plan, but Tracey pulled out the gun and survival took over. It would have been simple to say "Hey were not going to turn you in", but a gun is pointed at your head so you tend to change your priorities and forget important things like that.

Since Book took the lead by facing the bad guys, I suspect he also devised the plan. So he may not have completed the whole scope of what they were going to do once they faced the so called lawmen.

I have to agree about Stitch's condition after several years in a metal box. That he could stand at all seems rather impossible.

The young man at the dance just seemed rude. It was not long after that when Kaylee was surrounded by pack of very fine men who charmed by her.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 4:41 PM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Well, looks like we have winner for most flawed: HOG. ...and I ain’t talkin’ bout the bacon providin’ variety.

And now for the IMO stuff.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Mal's shooting of the Alliance pilot who was trying to surrender was nothing but murder...didn't sit well with me...yes he killed Book and all the others, but he was trying to surrender.


I think they made a point to show the kid lying dead before this scene. …also seemed to be the near turning point for Mal’s “ways”. Soon before the shooting, he had the conversation with the “monster” operative. The Operative was trying to convince Mal he was no diff. than him and didn’t belong in the “better” world. With those events back-to-back, the audience really isn’t sure if Mal IS any different and he will have to prove such in later in the story.

Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Now, Zoe doing her somersault and standing there in the line of fire for three hours while she draws her gun is dumb dumb dumb! I cringe every time.


OMG yes. Just as bad is the Jayne “close-line, flip, and head bonk” in the heist in the BDM. Why does it have to be so close to the beginning too. I cringe and also try to divert the attention of anyone I was trying to “convert” with a random question or noise, lol.

Quote:

Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:
OoG: Regardless of the fact that I loved the flashbacks and insite into how the crew joined up, the part where Mal got rid of the other pirates that wanted to take over Serenity was the worst piece of writing I have ever seen. An entire crew would not back away from a ship if one severly injured person with a small firearm was threatening them. That's so out there. even if he did point the gun at them and their captain, he's still injured and greatly outnumbered. …


How did that work out for Kaylee when our beloved crew starting easing in on Dobson. From a pure numbers perspective, I see ur point.

It was their captain who gave the “do as he says” nod to his crew. Coulda been that captain, much like Mal, wants to save his hide. (like the aforementioned end of WS piece, which I love) Also, coulda been respect. A storied captain might know what a man it takes to stand from a wound like that.

Woulda been kinda cool, if the other captain at that “stand-off” moment, notices some symbol that Mal fought for the Independents. Then he nods at Mal with respect and moves on.

Quote:

Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:
BDM: Simon. I can't stand him the entire movie until the very end, and he's one of my favorites (second to the captain, naturally). I don't why he was written or acted so stiffly and aggressively (to the point of barely emoting in the beginning, the 'this is anger' thing was the worst part, it's always easy to distinguish Simon being angry in the series), I understand the need and that his character had changed during the months between the series and the BDM, but there isn't a shred of the old character left. Not even a vest, which is something I think is as distinguishable to his character as the suspenders and brown coat is to Mal or the screened tees are to Jayne. It was just as dissapointing as hell to me. …


I feel the same way, especially in the beginning of BDM. Have to watch again, but something was just odd. Coulda been Nathan just outshining our boy, but… Not sure.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 6:44 PM

BORIS


Dumbest thing for me was not enough Badger in the series...and where was he in the movie? Also dumb, Mal sleeping with Nandi that was very dumb of him, though at least she got something good out of it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 23, 2008 7:00 PM

TILLIESONG


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Now, Zoe doing her somersault and standing there in the line of fire for three hours while she draws her gun is dumb dumb dumb! I cringe every time.


What bugs me the most is the editing. If that shot had been cut a few frames sooner, we wouldn't see that she couldn't get up from the somersault (not enough momentum? gun too heavy? costume too constricting?). Always wanted to re-edit that shot.

I get annoyed with Inara in OMR. She's supposed to be this über-Companion, and yet she's clearly almost bested by Yo-Saf-Bridge. And her self-defense skills in their little fight are weeeeak.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 24, 2008 11:55 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by TillieSong:
I get annoyed with Inara in OMR. She's supposed to be this über-Companion, and yet she's clearly almost bested by Yo-Saf-Bridge. And her self-defense skills in their little fight are weeeeak.



...but YoSafBridge supposedly had companion training *plus* extra con-woman and general felony experience that probably isn't on the Companion school curriculum (although that did apparently include sword fighting, even for the women).




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Inara saying in HoG strictly businesslike relationship, then crying about Nandi/Mal, then saying she's leaving. Act like a grownup, girl.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, May 26, 2008 6:23 AM

VOLK564


Mal to Simon in "Safe" -

"You're on my crew. Why're we still talking about this?"

Mal to Simon in Serenity -

"I look out for me and mine. That don't include you unless I conjure it does."

I mean, come on. A little continuity?

Other than that though - all good.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:32 AM

MOOSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Knightreyeder:
Wow, are we picking our fav series apart or what here? AND, the points are all good ones....



Yeah, you're right. What a crappy show! No wonder F*X cancelled it!!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
In the "Message" I got the opinion that Mal was about to tell Tracey the plan, but Tracey pulled out the gun and survival took over. It would have been simple to say "Hey were not going to turn you in", but a gun is pointed at your head so you tend to change your priorities and forget important things like that.



That's my take on it as well. Tracey didn't exactly give them a chance to tell him. He overheard "Call the cops..." then instantly pulled the gun and threatened everyone.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 4:29 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT


In hindsight and in the comfort of our computer chairs, we can pick apart many things. In the heat of the moment, when desperately trying to get 40 minutes of show in the can, I can imagine everyone shooting from the hip when in a tight spot.

Still, the characters stay in their character. That's what I like. And their characters have so much depth for a series it's amazing the writiers could do all that dialog and get it in the can in six days.

So mistakes crept in. Nandi's baby is certainly one glaring example. So aside from a continuity problem, easily solved if Mal had handed the baby over to Nandi, they stay in character and within the restraints of assigned personality.

Hard to fault damn good writing for the entire series. Firefly lives forever!


"Say godbye to your daddy, Jonah."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:10 PM

DAVEGRINBERG


So how about favourite moments? Personally, I think the opening scene of Trash is priceless... naked on a rock in the middle of nowhere "that went well"... in fact that whole episode pretty much captured the whole lighter-side spirit of the series for me, while the Message summed up the darker, but just as important.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 1:56 AM

KNIGHTREYEDER


Can't agree on the neck-edness episode, I thought it was just a bit too corny and was pushing the limits of just how off center Mal could be. I find it a little hard to imagine a person acting the way he did when the crew arrived.......the episode had redeeming qualities though, Simon's ultimatum to Jayne, Inara's upper handedness at the dumpster amongst other things.

Strong points well out weigh the bad and I hope no one thinks this Browncoat had that good a time nitpicking earlier. There are SO MANY really good moments with every character in the series, which says a lot when one considers the size of the cast.

It defies all logic how this show wasn't allowed to steamroller any series ever made.....which it basically did anyway!

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2008/05/coolest-starship-tourname
nt.php


Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:45 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


The "hook" for Out Of Gas- the notion that life support runs thru the main engine. Atmo oughtta have multi, multi backups, and in the end, be controllable by hand valves on the gas tanks and hand vents out of the hull- it is just gas- it's gotta be in cylinders somewhere. River's point, not that they'll asphyx-- ( ne'mind, strangle or choke) but that they'll freeze, does make better sense. Heat does take power.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:11 PM

KNIGHTREYEDER


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
The "hook" for Out Of Gas-........River's point, not that they'll asphyx-- ( ne'mind, strangle or choke) but that they'll freeze, does make better sense. Heat does take power.



Like in underwater exploration and submarines.....very believable.

_________________________________________________
VOTE FOR OUR FAVORITE SHIP!!
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/2008/05/coolest-starship-tourname
nt.php


Mal's expression in the scrapyard when he first see's Serenity says it all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 2, 2008 7:33 AM

TILLIESONG


I never did figure out how the ship managed to have gravity without power in OoG. Any ideas on this?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, June 2, 2008 8:08 AM

NBZ


according to the official blueprints from quantum mechanics, each floor has its own "gravity" (which acts within a limited range).

Think of it as something built into the ship that does not need to draw power.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
One shot on Ma(ude) Reynolds
Mon, October 21, 2019 15:02 - 1 posts
76th Independent Battalion Part 48
Mon, October 21, 2019 10:01 - 1884 posts
Happy Halloween
Sat, October 19, 2019 10:11 - 3 posts
North Richland Hills, TX CSTS Event Sunday, October 13 2019. Serenity Charity Screening. Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog Charity Screening.
Sun, October 13, 2019 00:12 - 1 posts
THE ROOKIE PICKED UP
Mon, October 7, 2019 16:19 - 13 posts
Prodigal Son
Tue, October 1, 2019 20:47 - 4 posts
Nathan Fillion's The Rookie 2nd season starts 9/29/2019 10 pm eastern ABC
Sun, September 29, 2019 21:58 - 1 posts
Arcata,CA CSTS Event Sunday, Sept. 29th 2019. Serenity Charity Screening.
Fri, September 27, 2019 02:27 - 1 posts
Denver, CO CSTS Event Saturday, Sept. 28th 2019. Serenity Charity Screening.
Fri, September 27, 2019 02:15 - 1 posts
New Berlin, WI CSTS Event Saturday, Sept. 28th 2019. Serenity Charity Screening.
Fri, September 27, 2019 02:06 - 1 posts
Irvine, CA CSTS Event Sunday, Sept. 22th 2019. Serenity Charity Screening and the Fallen Stars.
Sun, September 22, 2019 00:43 - 1 posts
Rocker Ric Ocasek, The Frontman Of The Cars, Has Died
Fri, September 20, 2019 20:40 - 5 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL