GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Jayne's World

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Thursday, July 10, 2008 23:25
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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 9:12 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


There's something I noticed about Jayne. Throughout FF and in Serenity he is known as the badass. Also for his coniving ways with greed being the motivating factor. At first glance you may say - Jayne bad, Mal good.

But JW doesn't write obvious one-dimensional characters. I noticed some things about the big lug. Of course, number 1, he loves a "tussle", fighting the law, hence the reason why he's a perfect fit on this crew. Also why, I think he respects Mal. Well, there's also the strength thing. Jayne's has many vices but greed gets him into some serious trouble.

I noticed that he is a good crew member in times of trouble. Whenever Mal would give him an order aboard ship he goes into action. Whether its prepping suits or the shuttles - he's your man.
In OMR, after they discover their headed towards a "net" Mal gives everyone an assignment but him, he asks Mal "What do I do?" - "You go get Vera."

In the pilot, he helps Kaylee fire up Serenity to escape the Reavers (okay, he had some motivation there). But you get my meaning, Jayne, despite his flaws is generally a good crew mate. Like Mal says to Inara in OoG, "Don't trust him and don't let him take over."

"In earnest Mal, why'd ya bring 'em back on."

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 10:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


You talking about when Jayne and Book take direction from Kaylee to bypass the hydraulics in the engine room to prepare for the Crazy Ivan?


Also, I suspect that he's all loaded up like Space Rambo in War Stories because he just doesn't want to miss out on the fun it looks like the others will have fighting.

He has lousy aim when he shoots Crow. :P

He has wonderful lines in Jaynestown.

He thinks he might survive the Reaver attack at the end of BDM. He doesn't want to explode in the beginning.
Mal & Zoe really, really should let him take grenades when he wants to.

He thinks it's more fun to smack 'em.

But he doesn't play well with others - he's the only BDH asked to leave a room, and more than once (excluding Mal in Inara's shuttle).

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Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:04 PM

SPACEANJL


oh yeah, for all the squabbling, Mal has no hesitation in giving orders, and Jayne obeys 'em. I think they only bicker when there's time and leisure to do so. It may just be an AB thing, but notice the change in body language when there's fighting/shooting to be done. He locks down, goes professional.

I've said this before, but I think the key to Jayne's behaviour is a very simple idea of protecting 'his' things - weapons, crew, family. Once you are in the circle, he's loyal. If Mal and the crew start treating him as a person, rather than a collection of weapons and bad habits, I think he'll repay that. He dislikes Simon initially because of his (Jayne's) crush on Kaylee - he knows he's going to lose. And he is absolutely right about the danger to the ship from the Tams. He just takes the really obvious and selfish route to solve it, because the Tams aren't 'his'. If he makes the mental transition to treating River like a little sister (the man has sisters, I'd bet on it) and shifts the bickering sibling relationship he had with Wash to Simon, life will beocme easier. Noisier, and Mal will spend most of his time playing referee, but easier.

I still think Jayne's homeworld is Deadwood. And I see it as a blue-collar world. (see 'Cold Comfort Mountain' for details) Our boy was born in a suburb, went to the local high school (when he wasn't playing hookey) and comes from a large and loving family. He's spent twenty years running away and playing the hardass. And now he finds himself being big brother all over again with this new family. Folks like Ferlinghetti and Hessian were not the type to sit down for cosy meals together. I think 'Serenity' is a new experinece for him, and he's having to relearn his behaviour.

Not that I'm obsessed with Jayne or anything...

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 2:40 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Jayne in the series I can understand. Jayne in the BDM I cannot. You'd think he'd be a tad grateful to Mal after Mal saves him from the Reavers, but he goes off and gets in Mal's face about the Battle of Serenity Valley as he is questioning Mal's leadership.

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 3:10 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Yep, that's the one. I get a good feeling whenever I see, or think about, that scene. Also, now I know that Joss is a submarine movie fan - I first heard the term "Crazy Ivan" in "The Hunt for Red October" so I kinda knew what was coming.

It's like Jayne comes alive whenever there's a tussle. That's why I knew he wouldn't last too long sitting down at the beginning of The Train Job. He loves a good scrap.

Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
You talking about when Jayne and Book take direction from Kaylee to bypass the hydraulics in the engine room to prepare for the Crazy Ivan?


Also, I suspect that he's all loaded up like Space Rambo in War Stories because he just doesn't want to miss out on the fun it looks like the others will have fighting.

He has lousy aim when he shoots Crow. :P

He has wonderful lines in Jaynestown.

He thinks he might survive the Reaver attack at the end of BDM. He doesn't want to explode in the beginning.
Mal & Zoe really, really should let him take grenades when he wants to.

He thinks it's more fun to smack 'em.

But he doesn't play well with others - he's the only BDH asked to leave a room, and more than once (excluding Mal in Inara's shuttle).



Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 3:18 AM

WYTCHCROFT



SpaceAnJL wrote:
Tuesday, July 08, 2008 23:04
Quote:


Jayne...
notice the change in body language when there's fighting/shooting to be done. He locks down, goes professional.



Very true. Fillion really picks up on this in the commentary for war stories - when he talks about how the more experienced Baldwin always follows his gun etc.

JONGSSTRAW
Kicks just keep gettin' harder to find

Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 12:40
Quote:

Jayne in the series I can understand. Jayne in the BDM I cannot. You'd think he'd be a tad grateful to Mal after Mal saves him from the Reavers, but he goes off and gets in Mal's face about the Battle of Serenity Valley as he is questioning Mal's leadership.


i actually think this is very typical of Jayne - if i was going to pick a moment for Jayne to feel the need to assert himself it would be exactly after Mal or someone 'saved him'.

overall - i think the joss quote that Jayne 'thinks he's the hero' is telling. Obviously JaynesTown has a big effect on him emotionally - bigger than his failed (pragmatic) betayal of the Tams. Also his reaction to the carnage of the battlefield in Those Left Behind.

But mostly i love that he sleeps through Jubal Early:)

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 3:22 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


You, obsessed with Jayne, nawwwww!

Seriously, you made some excellent points. I especially like the part about the sibling rivalry. Although Mal had to take a large wrench to Jayne noggin to get through to him you don't turn in your crew members. Didn't he learn nothing from Stitch about that?

I think that, had the series continued as it should have, we would have seen Mal change his treatment of Jayne.

If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 5:41 AM

SPACEANJL


Quote:

Originally posted by wytchcroft:

But mostly i love that he sleeps through Jubal Early:)



Yeah, that was interesting. But think of it this way - Jubal put out the folks who were a danger to him quick and sharp. If River hadn't locked Jayne in, he'd have popped out and Jubal would have shot him. End of Jayne.

btw, do you think Jubal reacted to Book as a danger becasue he knew something specific, or was it just a 'vibe'?

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 9:47 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


I think Jubal had a "feeling" about Book as a man of action. So he took him out fast (remember Book's handling of Dobbs the Lawman in the pilot?)

I think you're right about Jayne being dead had he left his bunk.

BTW - GREAT EP. OIS is one of the top five eps. It gave everyone a chance to shine as actors. One of my fav scenes is the entire crew, save River, at the chow table discussing what to do about the Lil' Albatross.

She's in congress?

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Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:32 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:

But mostly i love that he sleeps through Jubal Early:)

Yeah, that was interesting. But think of it this way - Jubal put out the folks who were a danger to him quick and sharp. If River hadn't locked Jayne in, he'd have popped out and Jubal would have shot him. End of Jayne.





yep seen in it that myself - and it makes sense, plus - funny.
Also, is that when Baldwin was filming Angel? -
i'm thinking they had to film without him (can't remember what the commentary says).

Quote:

btw, do you think Jubal reacted to Book as a danger becasue he knew something specific, or was it just a 'vibe'?


tricky - this plays differennt ways in my head but...
one thing, i'm not sure 'specific' and 'vibe' are all that seperated for Early.

On the other hand - given what a weak spot his past/personal life seems to be - coz River nails him that way -

i wonder if Early got Book out of the way for some reason of shame/embarrassment.
"He's no Shepherd" is said with recognition and anger.
But if Book was a threat - or had beaten Early in the past somehow etc, Early would have killed him.

the fact that he doesn't indicates (possibly) that Book occupied a position
of (resented) respect for Early at some point...*

maybe. it's a little slender...


*i'm thinking Marnie - not some Count Duku foolishness

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:58 AM

SPACEANJL


See, I think Book may have been a licensed bounty hunter for the gov at some point. Possibly after he had to turn in his badge. More visible and accountable than an Operative, but with a wide ranging brief and the freedom to make decisions which could be considered questionable in other lines of work...

Yeah, I don't think Jubal separates his inner and outer lives. Makes you wonder what school he went to, don't it?

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:31 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
See, I think Book may have been a licensed bounty hunter for the gov at some point. Possibly after he had to turn in his badge. More visible and accountable than an Operative, but with a wide ranging brief and the freedom to make decisions which could be considered questionable in other lines of work...

Yeah, I don't think Jubal separates his inner and outer lives. Makes you wonder what school he went to, don't it?



maybe "I don't give a hump if your innocent or not - so where does that leave you?"
was somehing Book said to Early's mother?? or even the boy Jubal??
it's a little OTT but possible...
River and Early have a lot of psychic 'bleed over'
(to use a recording analogy) in the episode.

Jubal seem to have, uh, issues. Maybe Book was the equivalent of the visiting sailors in Marnie - or something worse.

(ha! or the reverse - Book as Companion, it's a popular theory!)

again though - the problem is that Early would most likely have killed him if that were so.


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Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:39 AM

SPACEANJL


I was thinking it was more a case of recognising the competition.

*nasty grin* Of course, there is one very obvious thing that Book, Jubal Early and the Operative all have in common. Remember our little 'Neverwhere' reference? I'm imagining a certain monastic-type school, possibly on top of a mountain a la 'Crouching Tiger'

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:43 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I was thinking it was more a case of recognising the competition.



Book's too old for that.

Quote:

*nasty grin* Of course, there is one very obvious thing that Book, Jubal Early and the Operative all have in common. Remember our little 'Neverwhere' reference? I'm imagining a certain monastic-type school, possibly on top of a mountain a la 'Crouching Tiger'


snort!:)
+ yeah - or Batman Begins.


(oh right - it's us again
- exits forum at speed)


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Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:51 AM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."


Maybe Book trained Early to be an Operative and Early prefered to be on his own? Early doesn't seem like the type to 'follow orders', a bounty hunter would be more his style. Or maybe he 'flunked out' of Operative school due to his being unbalanced.


Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion


...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:01 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by fillygirl:
Maybe Book trained Early to be an Operative and Early prefered to be on his own? Early doesn't seem like the type to 'follow orders',



i haven't figured out Book in that way - he CAN take orders, but that appears to be the assurance that comes from age/experience, because he can also take charge. Early, you're right - he can't.

Quote:

a bounty hunter would be more his style. Or maybe he 'flunked out' of Operative school due to his being unbalanced.




that's an interesting take - it has possibilities...

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:52 AM

WYTCHCROFT


just to add - i've seen various timelines but little exploration of the Alliance pre-Serenity Valley.

People wonder if Book was an Operative - maybe they didn't quite have them before the civil war, maybe there was something less subtle that Book was a part of...

the Operative always struck me as performing the sort of tasks a controlling power would use (ie post Serenity Valley)



but, i dunno...

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:06 AM

SPACEANJL


It's been stated that Book was never an Operative (Ron G himself, from Joss.) I think he was military police of some sort, at some point.

But the Operative has the feel of something that is owned and controlled by a very select few, the kind of folk who are not merely above the law, they make it and apply it to other people.

Give me few days, I reckon I could probably whip you up a convincing timeline. All the way from the Astana Initiative, via the Pathfinder Missions, the first planet-divers and the 'Breath of Heaven' terraforming, the Exodus, the Founding of Londinium, Shorstein's invention of the Cortex, through the age of colonial expansion, via the Vestry uprising on Dyton, to the military coup at Station 8...

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:19 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
It's been stated that Book was never an Operative (Ron G himself, from Joss.) I think he was military police of some sort, at some point.



yeh - makes me smile some that Ron saw Book as a cop of some sort - i get CHIPS flashbacks!
as you know, i used to think of Book as an Operative but now, not so much. I'm not sure he didn't do bad things though...

Quote:

But the Operative has the feel of something that is owned and controlled by a very select few, the kind of folk who are not merely above the law, they make it and apply it to other people.



ah, this goes back to that thread from a while ago - folly worlds, the elite - the Earth-that-secretly-IS, the library etc.

Quote:

Give me few days, I reckon I could probably whip you up a convincing timeline. All the way from the Astana Initiative, via the Pathfinder Missions, the first planet-divers and the 'Breath of Heaven' terraforming, the Exodus, the Founding of Londinium, Shorstein's invention of the Cortex, through the age of colonial expansion, via the Vestry uprising on Dyton, to the military coup at Station 8...


go for it - let's see if it matches mine...
you are better at detail than me.

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:43 PM

VERASAMUELS


So...Jayne [no offence to Book, but getting back to the topic at the top].

Adam put it pretty well, [from memory]; 'Danger, thuggery, guns, sex' [GGG].

But Jayne's more than that. There's the concern for Kaylee when she gets shot, the tenderness [and lust!] towards Helen in 'Heart of Gold', plus the way he trusts her with his guns and weapons. The moments when he finds...more. End of 'Jaynestown' for one. Natural cunning. Crack shot. Can ride a horse and steer a wagon. Farm boy way back?

And Joss gives Jayne one of the best lines in the BDM, "Shepherd once told me, 'If you can't do something smart, do something right'." He's learned, he's grown. Not totally, otherwise River would never have been able to take him out with a tin of peaches [GGG]. That little flash of vulnerability when it looks as if death's coming on Mr Universe's moon, "Well, I might..."

The boy's got layers. Hidden deep and locked away tight, but he's got them. There's a heart in there somewhere. Wouldn't send money home to his Ma otherwise.

And then there's the raw sex appeal which is a whole other subject...[GGG]. To quote Xena, "I have this weakness for bad boys..."

'Vera'





Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:25 PM

SPACEANJL


We never forget the topic in hand!

Don't think he was ever a farm boy (that's Mal) - there's mention of welding in the letter from home, and he's handy with the cutting torch when they have to get back into the bridge (OMR) I think he's blue-collar construction (That old Chicago vibe) from a planet where they are mostly miners or welders, and supplement the diet with hunting. He didn't seem too bothered about the livestock in 'Safe'.

On the whole other subject bit - This thread could descend into one of 'those' discussions without too much trouble...

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