GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Relationship b/t Simon and River...

POSTED BY: SHINYSAHARA
UPDATED: Saturday, September 6, 2008 09:37
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Friday, September 5, 2008 8:14 AM

SHINYSAHARA


I can respect that they're close, a loving brother/sister pair. I'm also wondering, however, if there was an element of something else that we (viewers) should have caught. For example, River's face appearing when Simon and and Kaylee get together at the end of Serenity.

What do you guys think?




You're mouth is talking. You should look into that.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 8:21 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


No. The end.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 8:36 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinySahara:
What do you guys think?



A view of the deleted scene from Our Mrs. Reynolds should either confirm or deny your supposition. In short though, only on some planets - the pretty bad ones.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Friday, September 5, 2008 9:50 AM

MSB


eeeeeeeeeew and I think it's a matter of overfocus. I see it a lot with siblings of a disabled student. They're so much the caretaker of their disabled sibling that it blocks out a lot of the other normal aspects of life... and the disabled child becomes overly focused on the sibling because the sib is their only real brdge to the world. So I see River's actions at the end of Serenity as more the curiosity of a unique child whose experience of the world is limited and whose information is filtered through ehr more functional sibling

Also I think it would have been funny to have Simon and Kaylee , replete and exhausted, flop on to their backs and have Simon suddenly say " River.. um how long have you been there?"

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."

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Friday, September 5, 2008 10:11 AM

SHINYSAHARA


I didn't mean to gross anyone out, but I was watching a clip of something on youtube - I don't know if they were deleted scenes or something - but River was insisting that they needed to marry, that Simon didn't love her if they didn't.

You're prolly right, MSB. Thanks.

Your mouth is talking. You might want to look into that.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 10:13 AM

MSB


Yeah see that's a total unique sibling moment for you.. she intellectually gets the idea of marriage but her practical world experience is nil so she misperceives it's purpose and asks Simon:)

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."

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Friday, September 5, 2008 11:57 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinySahara:
I didn't mean to gross anyone out, but I was watching a clip of something on youtube - I don't know if they were deleted scenes or something - but River was insisting that they needed to marry, that Simon didn't love her if they didn't.



That sounds like the deleted scene from OMR that I was talking about. It's on the DVD so you could check.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Friday, September 5, 2008 1:12 PM

MAL4PREZ


So, I always took the scene the way it's described here by MSB, that River really is that far off in her understanding of romantic love. But I recall someone in another thread saying that River knew exactly what she was doing, that she was playing with Simon intentionally. Pulling his leg. It hadn't occurred to me, but it does seem possible.

I'm curious, did anyone ever take it that way? The second option - that she knew?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, September 5, 2008 2:25 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
So, I always took the scene the way it's described here by MSB, that River really is that far off in her understanding of romantic love. But I recall someone in another thread saying that River knew exactly what she was doing, that she was playing with Simon intentionally. Pulling his leg. It hadn't occurred to me, but it does seem possible.

I'm curious, did anyone ever take it that way? The second option - that she knew?



Oh yeah. Particularly when you get to the, "in the family way" bit. River is totally funning Simon there.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Friday, September 5, 2008 5:05 PM

PLATONIST


funning? Better Days... River's fantasy?... that girl is eating green ham and eggs at The Chocolate Factory.

I thought Joss said he took it out because it WAS implied CSI.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 6:33 PM

NBZ


no, he said that it was due to lack of time and that scene did not affect the rest of the episode.

As for "funning", totally possible. She is not always full on crazy and there is no other space to explain the pillow bit - not even full on crazy.

Another possibility - she started off serious, got the hint that it was really crazy and then just played along.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 6:45 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE


I don’t think there was anything else going on between River and Simon, and it squicks me when people read that into their relationship.

See, I have five younger siblings, and I would go to the ends of the earth for any of them. But I don’t see that sort of sibling love reflected much in pop culture – pretty much just in Firefly and in Prison Break these days. So often siblings are depicted as fighting or razzing each other, with a lot of tension even if deep down they love each other. Decisions like Simon’s, and Michael’s from Prison Break, to give up everything to save their sib’s life strike me in a much deeper place. I would do that, in a heartbeat, if any of my siblings needed me. That’s the sort of love I see in Simon and River, and it’s one of the things that really drew me into the show at the beginning.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 4:14 AM

SHINYSAHARA


CK - I really appreciate what you said, because while I was reading your post, it reminded me of something I saw this world. (By the by, I've only known recently discovered all of this.)
I don't remember the details, if it was the movie, if it was Mal, if he was talking or just thinking to himself, but the voice stressed the it was Love that, basically, fueled the ship...if you don't love something, she won't work for you, you can't captain it, etc.
CK, your explanation furthers this idea, and I appreciate noticing ways that its brought out in the story.




Your mouth is talking. You might want to look into that.

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 4:20 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by MSB:
eeeeeeeeeew and I think it's a matter of overfocus. I see it a lot with siblings of a disabled student. They're so much the caretaker of their disabled sibling that it blocks out a lot of the other normal aspects of life... and the disabled child becomes overly focused on the sibling because the sib is their only real brdge to the world. So I see River's actions at the end of Serenity as more the curiosity of a unique child whose experience of the world is limited and whose information is filtered through ehr more functional sibling

Also I think it would have been funny to have Simon and Kaylee , replete and exhausted, flop on to their backs and have Simon suddenly say " River.. um how long have you been there?"

____________________________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage."



As a mother of an "Aspie" I totally relate to Simon. You become ultra protective, especially since she's an only child. I'd do ANYTHING to protect her and she often asks me to interpret things. It's almost like "normal" people are talking in a foreign language.

I also totally laughed at that scene in the BDM. But Kaylee would have let out a bit of a scream at being observed. Then Simon would have had a fit. LOL

BTW I've always thought that of any of the crew River might have developed a crush on Mal, the father figure in her life. But then he would have been horrified too.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Saturday, September 6, 2008 4:50 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Well - Joss looked into the darker side of sibling connections (still is) with FRAY (the comic and Buffy S8) and the difference in emphasis is pretty clear.

The difficult aspect of the Rver/Simon relationship is more about when will River be able to fly with her own wings...

She is all about discovering herself. Simon has been brother, doctor, carer and surrogate Father to her - the white knight who took her our of the academy at the expense of his career. Will he be able to allow River to stand on her own - what will his reaction be - would he be able to 'let go'.

The movie of Serenity (you mention the watching scene at the very end) has a crucial moment near the end where this issue is played out to some extent - but i can't say more without a SPOIL.

And Platonist is right about River's whacky inner life - and NBZ is right about the funning?; 'yeh - no - well, yes', that River is so adept at.

Anyhow - different writers, different emphasis - and like all human relationships there is some complexity and room for - er, fan fiction....

(quickly runs away).

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 5:48 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Well - Joss looked into the darker side of sibling connections (still is) with FRAY (the comic and Buffy S8) and the difference in emphasis is pretty clear.

The difficult aspect of the Rver/Simon relationship is more about when will River be able to fly with her own wings...

She is all about discovering herself. Simon has been brother, doctor, carer and surrogate Father to her - the white knight who took her our of the academy at the expense of his career. Will he be able to allow River to stand on her own - what will his reaction be - would he be able to 'let go'.

The movie of Serenity (you mention the watching scene at the very end) has a crucial moment near the end where this issue is played out to some extent - but i can't say more without a SPOIL.

And Platonist is right about River's whacky inner life - and NBZ is right about the funning?; 'yeh - no - well, yes', that River is so adept at.

Anyhow - different writers, different emphasis - and like all human relationships there is some complexity and room for - er, fan fiction....

(quickly runs away).



I totally agree about River trying out her wings. She's trying to figure out the things that she's missed (either by being kept incommunicado at the "Academy" or by her warped perception do to the brain surgery or by just being different from the rest of us folks) and combined with her wacky brain and being a brat makes for wacky sibling fun.

And I'm looking forward to some fan fiction. (runs quicly away too)

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Saturday, September 6, 2008 6:31 AM

PLATONIST


Incest- a universal taboo- Joss explores it, makes it funny to show how confused River is about human relations. Simon, her trusted loving brother, tells her no!, no!, that's not the way it works.

River expels the demons of Miranda that haunt her psychic. She is more lucid, but still a curios teenager. She watches what works (future porn?) between Simon and Kaylee. Mal gives her wings to fly, but addendums it with a cautionary tale about "love".

Life's a learning process... River starts to get it with the help of her now extended family. It works. Good arc and ending for her. Love it!

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 6:40 AM

WYTCHCROFT


(quickly runs back in, skids - winks at Platonist)

Quote:

Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
She's trying to figure out the things that she's missed (either by being kept incommunicado at the "Academy" or by her warped perception do to the brain surgery or by just being different from the rest of us folks)




Yes, oh certainly.
And poor River, it's one thing to play catch up on what you've missed, but to not even know what that is... to just have a sense, an awareness of it. Sheesh.
This must be one of the reasons Joss was attracted to the Dollhouse project - i think we'll see this sort of thing explored further there.

world's crappest lurker

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 7:21 AM

PLATONIST


Yeah, Dollhouse should prove to be interesting, one could even argue that Inara's character would have found a home there; born from a dehumanizing institution.

I see River's character as essentially having a large learning curve as far as relationships, sex and love. As all 17 year olds do. She'll have a lot of trails and tribulations like the rest of us did...Buffy anyone? lol

That's one of my biggest roadblocks to enjoying River being paired with any of the crew (beyond a lighthearted crush)... too much potential for vilification and heartbreak and the ewww! factor, of course. We know Joss doesn’t write Fairytales. So someone would have to leave or die. And I hate the thought of that based solely on fallout from a failed relationship.

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 7:46 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinySahara:
I can respect that they're close, a loving brother/sister pair. I'm also wondering, however, if there was an element of something else that we (viewers) should have caught. For example, River's face appearing when Simon and and Kaylee get together at the end of Serenity.

What do you guys think?




You're mouth is talking. You should look into that.



Yeah, I sort of got the eebies sometimes. It felt a little hey my sisters purty sometimes.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 9:37 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Yeah, I sort of got the eebies sometimes. It felt a little hey my sisters purty sometimes.

I actually get a little weirded out by that River watching brother sex thing. But I certainly hope nothing was implied by it! CSI - ew!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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