GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Simon and River's Parents Involved in River's Abduction

POSTED BY: BROWNCOATBEAR
UPDATED: Thursday, January 27, 2011 14:34
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Monday, September 15, 2008 2:47 PM

BROWNCOATBEAR





I am a conspiracy theorist.

For good reasons, I believe that Simon and River's parents were working with the Alliance, and had agreed to let them abduct her and experiment on her. I believe that there was some consideration given to Mr. and Mrs. Tam in exchange for their complicity.

My personal opinion, if I am as fimiliar with Joss' thinking and writing style as I think I am, is that he was intending to build a sub-plot based on a wider conspiracy involving the Tams, and perhaps parents of other "eligible" Alliance children. There are clues to this buried in the screenplays, but I find the most support for my theory in the episode "Safe", which I will detail as this thread evolves.

Does anyone agree? What is your evidence for, or against?


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Monday, September 15, 2008 3:30 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


It's just about general agreement that the parents are complicit in River's use by the Alliance and if there weren't they were at least scared of retaliation from the Alliance and loss of their life style.








http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Monday, September 15, 2008 3:50 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT


No evidence at all, really. Can't think of anything in the script that shows this.

Having a crazy son going off, yeah, that's there.

What is it you see in the script? Anything the Alliance might have said would have been easy to swallow, how the school was top flight and River preferred to stay to continue advanced studies. Just what parents want to hear.

Interesting conjecture, tho.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 4:03 PM

KEELHAULER

"Heard tell they used to keelhaul traitors back in the day" ~ Malcolm Reynolds


Wow. I never really thought they were involved at all. I always thought they were just cold, detached parents who didn't really care what was happening to their kids. It's an interesting notion, though.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 4:06 PM

MAL4PREZ


Really? General agreement? Huh. You'll get none of that from me LOL!

So, I think the elder Tams really did care for their children, but in a selfish and close-minded way. The first scene in Safe is mostly destroys the "evil Tam parents" theory for me. Gabriel Tam is pretty clearly shown as a wonderful father - as long as his children are what he expects them to be: bright and well-behaved and promising. A rebellious son throwing away a budding career, on the other hand, is something Gabriel has absolute no ability to handle. (Kind of like a man held over a volcano, eh?)

OK, so I have to admit I'm a bit biased. I'd rather the Tams be parents who effed up because they had more faith in the system than in their son. I think those would be more compelling characters than a pair of soul-less selfish monsters who sold their daughter for no reason other than personal gain.

As for handing her to the Academy for other reasons... ? Some kind of blackmail or pressure from the Alliance? That certainly seems possible, though like I said, not so interesting to me. I'm opinionated.

Anyhow, I do like me a good conspiracy theory, and certainly in Joss's verse anything is possible. Please share your own clues BrowncoatBear!


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, September 15, 2008 4:17 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:




There's no certain answer to what is always going to be an interesting question... Certainly the flashbacks in Safe have a creepyfying edge...

But complicity (and here Simon himself may be guilty) is not the same as quite what you are suggesting - ie that the Parents knew EXACTLY what would happen - that in fact they were in agreement with the plan to experiment on River etc (and what WAS that plan again?).
Unless there was some more direct motive - promotion, share bumping (whatever) for Gabriel's business or something, then that seems highly unlikely.

You are confusing what the Alliance is.
To the Tams and others from the Core - THEY are the Alliance, and so are their friends, neighbours and little jimmy's dog.
It's the reality of everyday life - not goons in a ship with guns etc, which is what they are if you happen to be a Brownie from the Rim etc.

That the Parents wanted rid of a difficult daughter or wanted to sever the claustraphobic relationship between River and Simon... These are definite possibilities - but they are also speculation, there's no sure evidence. You would have to make very clear the dots you are joining up in any workable 'theory'.

That Simon may have encouraged River to go is also a possibility - 1.) It's in his nature to want the best for River, he could easily have thoght that was what she was going to get, and feels guilty later. 2.) Perhaps he got jealous finally (as siblings will) of the 'gifted' one - perhaps he wanted a chance to shine...

Or maybe he just worries now about the very possibility that he may have done so. Again, all these explanations hold up with what we see - because we see so little! Simon's viewpoint is not a neutral one - but the series was not wanting to show ALL the cards - so there are rich questions left for us to eat up!:)

But yeah - maybe the Academy just had a great catalog that year and no/one read the small print.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 5:40 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I think the only that can really be said is that River wanted to go to a really *really* good school and they had the money to send her. So, they did. The parents then realised that something was going on (probably bad) after some time, but didn't kick up much, if any, of a fuss. Really if only because it was a government run school, and being that they were educated, they would have no doubt realised the repercussions of there actions should they do so.

So, being in line with there standing in society, they silently mourned for there daughter and tried to prevent there son from going down his own disastrous road.


Sure, there's a bit of speculation in there. But, I think all of it stands to reason and doesn't stray too far beyond nor reads too much into what we've seen. And surely anything more, including government involvement, reads far too much into what we know.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, September 15, 2008 5:49 PM

BROWNCOATBEAR


Yes, early in "Safe", father Tam is portrayed as a good father. However committing River to the program does not necessarily mean that he does not love her.

Remember, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." If the Alliance program operators pitched him a good story, and fed him a lot of flag waving patriotism b.s., the psychology of Mr. and Mrs. Tam could very simply be that they are offering River for her benefit as well as the Alliance's. Of course it is entirely possible and likely that they may not have been told everything that they have planned for her. This would be a great foundation for a very emotional and dramatic revelation on the Tams part in a later episode.

It is amazing what people can justify in their minds when they are told is for some ultimately benign purpose. Eugenics is a fine example.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:15 PM

PLATONIST


Maybe they are clones? And that's why River couldn't read their true intent. Brilliant, even when I'm tired.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:20 PM

BROWNCOATBEAR


If I remember correctly, River wasn't known to have psychic abilities until after she had been in "training".

For those who study trauma based mind control, it is well known that such training is reported to increase the mind control victim's intuitive sense.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:36 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


River was known to be more gifted than her brother. Probably why she was "accepted" by the school. My theory is they (the blue hands oeople) looked for children within the top 2% of those identified as gifted, and started experimenting to see if they could develop a super soldier.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:37 PM

PLATONIST


The emergence of River's psychic abilities is left vague. Was psychic testing done and that is why she was chosen for the program? Or did they somehow stimulate those abilities?


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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:38 PM

REGINAROADIE


I'm with Mal4Prez with this one. I'd post a really in depth answer to that question, but instead I'll recommend that you read my fanfic series YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN. It's pretty much my very long answer to that question.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:48 PM

BROWNCOATBEAR


Big response by WYTCHCROFT, so let me go point by point:

1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River, and is visibly distressed when he suspects that something is amiss. He is also quite frustrated with his parent's flagrant lack of concern when he brings his suspicions to their attention.

2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.

3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River. I have seen no evidence that they were in any way displeased with her as a daughter, but rather that they felt the Alliance's motives were worthy of making the sacrifice for the greater good. This is a common theme played out frequently in history.

I will connect the dots later on this thread, and I will also offer my thoughts about how I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.

It is clear that Book was formerly an operative who had a change of heart and got out to follow a more spiritual path, saving other's souls, in repentance for has past while retaining his trade craft.

Book knew that the Tams were involved in River's assignment at the academy, and that was going to become apparent in some later episode.

Then the show got cancelled and book got killed, and yadda yadda yadda.


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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:56 PM

BROWNCOATBEAR


Platonist,

It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.

In the pilot, Simon reveals in his monologue that River chose the academy based on its curriculum.

This actually creates a small continuity inconsistency with my theory, but it could be overcome with a little ingenuity, i.e., if the Alliance wanted her specifically, how would they know that she would take an interest in that particular academy.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 6:58 PM

PLATONIST


I may take you up on that, reginaroadie, I've been looking for a believable fic to read, you know, one that reminds me of the show, I love. Reassure me it's not a ridicules River romance, where she's turned into a soccer mom, and we have a deal! lol


Interesting ideas about Book's invovement, maybe the comic book will shed some light.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:03 PM

BROWNCOATBEAR


Platonist,

Oh, yeah. I created this thread without any reference to the comic book series.

I have not read any of it, and I think that those stories are somewhat of a departure from what would have been written into the t.v. series, had it continued.

But, anyone who has read the comic series would immediately know if I was off base on that point.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:07 PM

PLATONIST


I hate to undermine everyone's confidence in our public schools, but we test for everything and know everything and most parents want their kid in the "special programs" so they can brag about to all the other parents, how their child made the cut. It reassures them that they are the good parents. Sad, but true. The Tams had blind faith and ignorant optimism in the Alliance, much like Miranda and that's what's going on here. They didn't "question" it like Simon did who really knew his sister.


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Monday, September 15, 2008 7:19 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
[.....I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.
.....



I think this is on target.. Good job.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 8:36 PM

SIGMANUNKI


@Platonist:

Actually, in the flash backs, if you look at the way the parents are talking to Simon (body language, tone, emphasis, etc) there is every indication that they had an idea, but didn't act. Probably because of, again, knowledge of the repercussions.

There's a lot of real history to back this up. I mean, just look at the reaction to the Nazi's before they took power in Germany pre-WWII. The intellectuals thought that there was no way they'd get voted in. But, then they did. Then they thought that there was no way that the Nazi's would get away with doing the horrible things that they did do. But, they did. And of course, by that time it was too late to leave. So, they hid and did nothing. And a lot of the brave few that actually had some fight in them paid dearly for there efforts.

Similarly, the Tams had faith in the system, but then got bitten by it. Then they didn't have the character to go against it, if only because they didn't know what to do and were afraid of the consequences. Better to be a good little citizen and try to protect what you can.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, September 15, 2008 9:01 PM

PLATONIST


I agree to that to some degree... by the time Simon is planning a rescue, there is quite a possibility that the Tams knew that there was some truth in his accusations. They chose to ignore it, to disbelieve, and play it safe, as you said. That is a far cry from aiding, abetting, and abduction, considering we know that River went by her own accord (see the Tam sessions). I think the Tams will be truly shocked if they ever get to see River, again, just as Germans citizens were when they found out they were living less than 5 miles from Nazi Concentration Camps, which horrified them, if you want to use a WWII analogy and how the Nazi’s ruled with intimation and fear.

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Monday, September 15, 2008 9:47 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:
I agree to that to some degree... by the time Simon is planning a rescue, there is quite a possibility that the Tams knew that there was some truth in his accusations. They chose to ignore it, to disbelieve, and play it safe, as you said. That is a far cry from aiding, abetting, and abduction, considering we know that River went by her own accord (see the Tam sessions).




Very true. But, that's not really mentioned in the Tam Sessions, but rather in Simon's explanation of how things went (Serenity the episode I believe).



Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:

I think the Tams will be truly shocked if they ever get to see River, again, just as Germans citizens were when they found out they were living less than 5 miles from Nazi Concentration Camps, which horrified them, if you want to use a WWII analogy and how the Nazi’s ruled with intimation and fear.




I most agree. But, I think that that analogy is more brutal than what was going on in The 'Verse. Well, at least we don't know of any events (and none were alluded to) that would be along those lines (or at least on that scale).

I think that the Alliance ruled with a more subtle "iron fist." Perhaps something more akin to the government in Aeon Flux (movie).

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, September 15, 2008 10:58 PM

RALLEM


Actually I have written documents whjich prove that the Tam's parent and some grassy Gnoll planned this abduction form the day River was born. jk :)



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Monday, September 15, 2008 11:13 PM

XEYRA


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Platonist,

It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.



You're forgetting the R. Tam Sessions. The quote I have in my signature is from there. River had since an early age shown to have a powerful intuition. The interviewer in the first Session seemed to have been extremely interested in this talent of River's. She may not have been a true psychic until the experiences in the Academy but she had shown that she had a talent for it. Like Joss Whedon says of Jubal Early in the OiS commentary: "so intuitive as to be almost psychic". In River's case, the Academy turned the almost into real.


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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:56 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River...

I agree. I see none of the usual sibling rivalry from Simon. He's nothing but proud of River. Just watch him when he says she makes him look like an idiot - his chin is high. He doesn't understand that as an insult to himself, but a high compliment to her.

Quote:

2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.
Well... but I get different meaning out of platonist's point here. To the elder Tams, the Alliance is not just a power structure, but is their nation and their identity. It'd be like a wealthy couple in today's America being told that the kid they proudly sent to West Point is being horribly tortured and maimed under the authority of the US government. Do you really think a high power CEO kind of couple who'd invested their lives in The System would believe such a thing without strong strong evidence? Just look at how resistant people are to believing that their favorite candidate stretched the truth a bit!

Quote:

3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River.
Here's the thing that's confusing me about your theory - it's a matter of when things went down. If you're suggesting that the Tams folded to pressure not to look into River's situation AFTER she was at the Academy, well, I think that much is clear.

On the other hand, if you're saying that they knew exactly what they were sending her into when she first applied, that's the part I just don't see.

Edited to add: It may sound like I'm dissing your theory - I don't mean that! It seems that you're into something more complicated than Gabriel and Regan as evil cackling villains, and that's cool! I'm just not quite understanding your setup. Are you writing a fic of this so it'll be all laid out eventually?

Quote:

Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River.
And here I'll refer to my own fic LOL! I totally set up such a connection, with Book in a state of penance and out to protect Simon and River. But I didn't involve the operative or the elder Tams.

Xeyra - yep, I agree. In the River Tam Sessions we also find out River's talent for knowing what girl Simon liked before anyone else did. She totally had some skills before the Alliance enhanced them.

Oh, and BcBear - I wouldn't discount the comics so quickly. Joss writes them, the material is solidly canon. And rumor has it that the next set will tell Book's tale. And he used to be a dirty cop. So we heard from Ron Glass himself on the Browncoat Cruise!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:43 AM

BROWNCOATBEAR


Mal4Prez,

Unfortunately I am not writing any fic. I am just a fan with an active imagination who often contemplates and extrapolates where the plot lines were headed based on the inertia that they had built up before the shows cancellation.

As far as timeline goes, I imagine that River was already enrolled in the Academy and had been surreptitiously put through several stages of assessment, unbeknownst to the Tams, by Alliance operatives working under cover as faculty.

Upon their assessment of River as a "good candidate", they likely approached the Tams with some kind of packaged proposal, coloring it in such a way as to suggest that the special program is for Alliance benefit and that River will not be harmed while enrolled in it. The Alliance obviously would not reveal the true horrible nature of the program to the Tams so as not to cause alarm to them, and so that they could keep things compartmentalized and maintain plausible deniability.

The Alliance may have incentivised their "offer" to the Tams by guaranteeing certain benefits for them and embellishing it with an offer for accelerated career advancement for an unknowing Simon (this is heavily suggested by Mrs. Tam in episode "Safe"), and with whatever veiled threats you can imagine.

Once they got the okay from the Tams (they were not going to accept 'no' for an answer), then River was transferred to the special learning department.

Make no mistake: I do believe that the Tam's decision to put River into the program was based on some kind of pressure from the Alliance, and that they knew that it was a contoversial decision. But, ultimately because of their patriotism, they committed River and her safety to some unknown program, and in my opinion a good parent will always opt to protect their children and would not succumb to such pressure or intimidation tactics. Especially for political reasons.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 4:15 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Big response by WYTCHCROFT, so let me go point by point:

1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River, and is visibly distressed when he suspects that something is amiss.



I always make a point of mentioning this too - but nobody ever notices.
I KNOW Simon is all about the caring and the selfless.
That does not exclude the possibilities i discussed, whether real, or lurking in the back of Simon's mind. It COULD explain WHY is he so. I'm not saying it DOES explain. But it would be a natural human reaction. Look again at the flashbacks and where they occur in the narrative - and ask yourself what viewpoint are we seeing these from, does it change? etc.
I never seem to articulate this very well.

Simon and River is all about the LOVE (see Serenity the BDM). But that is no simple thing.

I didn't want to mention my Fan scribblings (sigh) but i have tried in the past to explore the issue(s) from many different sides - since most explanations are plauisble enough.

I was going to mention The Recordings so I'm glad Xeyra did. River was already psychic.

Quote:

2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.


I'm with Platonist on this.


Quote:

3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River. I have seen no evidence that they were in any way displeased with her as a daughter, but rather that they felt the Alliance's motives were worthy of making the sacrifice for the greater good. This is a common theme played out frequently in history.


Well IF Simon was right about the postcards, (and IF we are seeing the truth of what happened) and if River was being as obvious as Simon says, then the very blithe (dismissive) reaction of the Parents is wierd in the extreme. They don't even try to see what Simon means - or reassure him ina realistic way. So... again, there are more POSSIBILITIES here.

Quote:

I will connect the dots later on this thread, and I will also offer my thoughts about how I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.

It is clear that Book was formerly an operative who had a change of heart and got out to follow a more spiritual path, saving other's souls, in repentance for has past while retaining his trade craft.

Book knew that the Tams were involved in River's assignment at the academy, and that was going to become apparent in some later episode.

Then the show got cancelled and book got killed, and yadda yadda yadda.



I completely disagree - though for a long time i thought myself that Book was an ex-op. I think Joss will surprise us. Also, I keep coming back to two things. Joss describes Book as "A man of peace not at peace." and the way he cracks, telling Inara about failing to defend a man he had sworn 'to protect'. I always thought this was just a slip that didn't get corrected (coz, Dobson? huh?) but i'm beginning to think this refers to something in Book's history.

I'm most likely as wrong as the next guesser on this one!! Still fun though:)

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:08 AM

RALLEM


All I will say is that I think there is something fishy going on here and I have a feeling the parents were intimidated by River. In Serenity, (the episode) Simon is very proud when he says that he is very smart but his sister makes him look like an idiot child, and I had a different feeling in the scene where Simon and River were children, (I cannot think of the episode's name) and River starts going crazy about the reavers and the dinosaurs, because I thought her father felt uncomfortable and ill at ease. Perhaps the Tams are very similar to the Dursleys in the Harry Potter stories. I wonder if the institute they sent River to was called St. Mungos.



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:07 AM

BROWNCOATBEAR


WYTCHCROFT,

Some dot connecting now. And keep in mind that I am not trying to be "right" about anything. For God's sake, it is just a tv show, and a cancelled one at that. I suppose that I am second guessing Joss a bit, but, from the perspective of story telling and plot development, based on the character nuances I perceive, I am seeing these elements pretty clearly.

Okay, back to the dot connecting, and for this entry I am going to keep it limited to the point that you disagree on.

Regarding Book

Go back to the pilot episode: The Evesdown Docks, and the scene where we first notice Book. He is just strolling casually along, with his stuff in tow, purportedly looking for a ride. Doesn't know where he is going, or how he will get there. He is approached by a "barker". The barker pitches Book on taking a ride on the Brutus, and early in the encounter the barker calls Book "grandpa".

Book blows past the barker as if he was yesterday's news, displaying no interest in riding on his ship, and seemingly put off by his grandpa remark.

Later, as we see him stumbling upon Serenity, he seems to be moving extraordinarily slow and looking around with a bit more intent as he passes in front of Kaylee with here trademark parasol, relaxing in her lounge chair. He pauses to look over the front of the ship, as if he wants to be noticed, and catches her gaze for a moment, lingering briefly before he starts to move away. He is assessing, and lingering, almost as if he is hesitating to move away just long enough for her to initiate contact and say, "You're gonna come with us.". This is the only opening that Book needs to arrange passage on Serenity without it looking like he purposely chose that particular ship, i.e., he chose Serenity, but he made it look like Serenity chose him. A common tactic in the intelligence world.

Then, we remember that when Book puts those famous strawberries in Kaylee's face to seal the deal, she says what? Oh yes, "ooh, grandpa." Although we notice that this time he is not put off by her reference to his maturity, as he was by the previous barker.

We could say that Book was being polite and was somewhat charmed by Kaylee, hence his more friendly response, but it is too much of a coincidence that this humble preacher, with so much knowledge of the inner world of Alliance military operational intelligence would end up on the same ship as Simon, River, and Dobson. Thus, what is apparent to me is that Book wanted on that particular ship and he did not want anyone to know.







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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
For good reasons, I believe that Simon and River's parents were working with the Alliance, and had agreed to let them abduct her and experiment on her. I believe that there was some consideration given to Mr. and Mrs. Tam in exchange for their complicity.



Certainly plausible. Gabriel Tam is not a real likable character imho. At first he's a bit too nice and then the ugly control freak comes out . And the glimpse we get of Regan Tam is she's more of the dutiful wife, facilitator type.
I just went to twiztv.com to read the script and the version they have has a completely different beginning:

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/season1/firefly-107.htm

No little Tams or dinosaurs mentioned in the tease. It definitely has more obvious nods and winks to the Tams knowing something's not exactly shiny with their daughter and they're not surprised by it.

Thx for the thread - it got me thinking about the timing of each person's boarding of Serenity - I'd never quite thought about what it meant for Dobson to be boarding before Simon and River (duh) - how did he know what ship they would choose? What's the underground's connection to Mal, and how did Dobson get that info? Mal knows they are picking people up and that surprises the others. Was that look between Simon and Mal a, "so this ponce is the precious cargo I was told about?"

I like the idea of Simon feeling responsible for River being at the Academy, even if just a little. I'm not sure brotherly love alone accounts for his obsession with his sister's welfare. Love AND Guilt would though.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com


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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:31 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Xeyra:
Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Platonist,

It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.



You're forgetting the R. Tam Sessions. The quote I have in my signature is from there. River had since an early age shown to have a powerful intuition. The interviewer in the first Session seemed to have been extremely interested in this talent of River's. She may not have been a true psychic until the experiences in the Academy but she had shown that she had a talent for it. Like Joss Whedon says of Jubal Early in the OiS commentary: "so intuitive as to be almost psychic". In River's case, the Academy turned the almost into real.




You're reading way too much into things. There is are techniques called hot and cold reading. For that matter, I've been able to get off of someone within seconds of meeting them a general feel of who they are with exceedingly high accuracy. It doesn't actually take much but paying attention to the fine details of human behaviour. As in, we all like to think that we are unique, but we are actually very far from it. Now, imagine if I had training to hone those senses!

All that happened at the Academy was that River couldn't shut off, nor filter the input from those senses (Simon: Ariel). So, imagine what training that could do, if even the incomplete training that she received.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:38 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Gabriel Tam is not a real likable character imho. At first he's a bit too nice and then the ugly control freak comes out.




Um, what?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:39 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:

River starts going crazy about the reavers and the dinosaurs





When did this happen again? Because, I don't recall any such thing.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 12:37 PM

RALLEM


I have the series with me and will start watchin gthe second dvd soon. If I see it I will post it.



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:06 PM

RALLEM


In the beginning of Shindig is when I am talking about, but I was mistaken. River said the independent had cut them off with the use of dinosaurs and they would have to resort to canabalism.



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:54 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


The episode with the flashback with Little Simon and Tiny River is "Safe" and I don't think she's crazy or hysterical--she's just playing an imaginative game.

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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 2:05 PM

RALLEM


I just saw that I made that mistake. I meant to click play for shindig and instead did so for safe. My bad.



http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:11 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by shinyseven2:
The episode with the flashback with Little Simon and Tiny River is "Safe" and I don't think she's crazy or hysterical--she's just playing an imaginative game.



Agreed. I'd say she was more like Wash with the Dinosaurs than "crazy."

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:01 PM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:



I am a conspiracy theorist.

For good reasons, I believe that Simon and River's parents were working with the Alliance, and had agreed to let them abduct her and experiment on her. I believe that there was some consideration given to Mr. and Mrs. Tam in exchange for their complicity.

My personal opinion, if I am as fimiliar with Joss' thinking and writing style as I think I am, is that he was intending to build a sub-plot based on a wider conspiracy involving the Tams, and perhaps parents of other "eligible" Alliance children. There are clues to this buried in the screenplays, but I find the most support for my theory in the episode "Safe", which I will detail as this thread evolves.

Does anyone agree? What is your evidence for, or against?




interesting thoughts, very, if they where implicit in it, then lets hope notthing similar in some fasion, would ever happen in the real world.


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Wednesday, January 26, 2011 4:04 PM

ZZETTA13


Shepherd Book sat down at Serenity’s galley table.

“Your turn.” Kaylee said.

“ My turn?” The preacher questioned.

“ Yes, every person sitting at the table here has each told a story.” She looked at Simon, River and Jayne.

“Well, River hasn’t but she’s aloud to sit this one out. So it’s your turn. Fact or fable, doesn’t really matter.”

The table was noticeably absent of the captain, Zoe, Wash and Inara.

Shepherd Book looked at each face in turn.

“Ok, my tale will be told of one, the Wolfe family. Anyone hear it before?”

All heads nodded negatively.

“ Good, I’ll start. It was a cold, dark night. The Wolfe family were walking….on their way to shelter. Father Wolfe sensed something, he looked at mother Wolfe. He could see that she felt it too. They quicken their pace. The young children, a boy and a girl, could barely keep up,…..and after a time it was evident that the family could not outdistance the predators. There was a tree, papa Wolfe pushed the children up, then assisted mama into the branches above. When they were all of a sufficient height, the Wolfe family turned and looked down below. There on the ground was a pack of rugged animals. Their teeth bared back in a menacing grin. WOLVES…The patriarch of the Wolfe family exclaimed. He looked at the biggest beast. “BEGONE YOU DEVIL DOGS” He shouted to the leader. The giant beast gazed up into the tree.

“ All we want is food!” He barked at the four in the branches.

“We have no food!” Called the man to the hungry pack.

“Ohhhhhh....but you have. Tiny morsels up there that will be enough to satisfy the hunger of me and my brothers toss them down and you and the woman may be on your way…he said.”

Jayne was intrigued by the preacher story. He sat up close in his chair next to the table. The preacher continued.

“ Father Wolfe pulled his children in tight into his warm being….then with a flexing of his arms he tossed the children out of the tree and into the pack of waiting animals.” Shepherd Book looked around to the faces at the table.

“ It was a cold, dark….night. The Wolfe family continued on their journey. The howls of the animal pack and the cries of their prey had become lost in the distance. Father Wolfe looked at mother Wolfe, there was no sound of them being followed. The End.”

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Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I read over a story as a favor to a friend, it was a story I wouldn't normally choose. Anyways this friend had an idea in her story that I've never seen. It was preposed that Simon and River's parents were really part of an Alliance change/make-the-government-smaller movement and that they honestly didn't know that River was being sent to a bad place. Then when they found out they tried to get her out but couldn't let Simon succeed easily because he was doing it in an obvious manner and if he was caught it would blow their chances of getting her out. I know this is far fetched and I'm not saying I agree with it, its definitely an ... original idea, but I guess it was interesting to read a different perspective. But I think, more likely than not, the portrayal of them as not very good people is accurate, whether they did know what the academy was or not. So I tend to think its possible that they were part of the whole thing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:31 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I read over a story as a favor to a friend, it was a story I wouldn't normally choose. Anyways this friend had an idea in her story that I've never seen. It was preposed that Simon and River's parents were really part of an Alliance change/make-the-government-smaller movement and that they honestly didn't know that River was being sent to a bad place. Then when they found out they tried to get her out but couldn't let Simon succeed easily because he was doing it in an obvious manner and if he was caught it would blow their chances of getting her out. I know this is far fetched and I'm not saying I agree with it, its definitely an ... original idea, but I guess it was interesting to read a different perspective. But I think, more likely than not, the portrayal of them as not very good people is accurate, whether they did know what the academy was or not. So I tend to think its possible that they were part of the whole thing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



what is this story called, sounds interesting.

by the way, are these following "scenes" some you have run into in any of the story/stories you have read.

funny scene(with River), Serenity is being boarded by criminals/pirates, do not know if they are planetbound or if they are in the black during this boarding, at some point the serenity crew has them beat, and at this point River is for some reason probably to scare the survivers, is standing over one of them and in a coldish/snobish accent(written to be of Osirian)as a gone bad highsociety debutante, asking Mal i think, of what to do with this survivor, and it is described as if they cannot get answer over there lips for a little while after hearing how River could have turned out if the Academy had let her be, and not ruined her life.

scene2(Mal and Zoe, and river as pilot)it starts with Mal/Zoe tells/asks if he/she thinks River is not happy as pilot, so they deside to ask Monty if he know of a pilot, and they get a female pilot out of it, and tells river she can now find the place/work on the ship, for her.

Scene3(S/K more familly drama related i think)
Simon talking with Kaylee: it is possible that Our mother(Reagan Tam)sent her to the school(The Academy) just to get River away, because she(River) was a slight social embarrasement for her parents, with her nearly freaky intelligence at social events.(unknowing of course of what would happen at the Academy.

scene 4(sad scene with River and pretty much everyone) if you have just recently happened to read it by pure chance:-)a scene where River comes into the eating area,(looking slightly embarrased, sad maybe even a bit sick(and not because of the drugs Simon gives her)) where Inara finds out that the guild might have broken one of there own rules by giving a special medical drug to The Academy(one that stop the female monthlies-cycle as long as the drug is taken.)
And River tells that she had been told she could not have children because something had happened atthe school, an now she begins to suffer from the withdrawals from it, by plumbing right back into that monthly cyckle.

Friendly greetings from KrelleK.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:08 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:

I am a conspiracy theorist.

For good reasons, I believe that Simon and River's parents were working with the Alliance, and had agreed to let them abduct her and experiment on her. I believe that there was some consideration given to Mr. and Mrs. Tam in exchange for their complicity.

My personal opinion, if I am as fimiliar with Joss' thinking and writing style as I think I am, is that he was intending to build a sub-plot based on a wider conspiracy involving the Tams, and perhaps parents of other "eligible" Alliance children. There are clues to this buried in the screenplays, but I find the most support for my theory in the episode "Safe", which I will detail as this thread evolves.



I hadn't thought of that, since there's plenty of yuppie sheeple who BELIEVE they're members of The Elite. Easy to project that myth onto The Tams.

Joss clearly based River upon Cathy O'Brien and her daughter Kelly, the Real World victims of govt mind control by the most heinous of tortures, to manufacture multiple personality disorder. So Joss was very much aware that parents sell their kids into govt mind-control programs.

Cathy O'Brien
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cathy+o'brien

Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was admittedly signed over by his parents into a govt brainwash/psychiatric program, "to improve his academic performance". They were more likely willing dupes who failed to monitor their son's torture by CIA LSD.
www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Unabomber+Ted+Kazinski+brother+
brainwash+program&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq
=

Cathy's parents were themselves multigenerational incest victims who became perpetrators, with MPD intentionally induced by torture from their parents and mobster associates.

Cathy's parents were extorted to put their kids into the govt program, after her dad was busted sending her child porn in the mail. Congressman, un-elected "president", JFK Warren Commission coverup member and pedophile Leslie Lynch King Jr* personally recruited her parents into the govt program, under threat of going to prison.

Cathy was brainwashed, tortured, raped, drugged, threatened, extorted, forced to watch murders, to keep her own daughter in the CIA's MKULTRA "Project Monarch" rapeslave program. When Cathy broke out of the slavecamps, the courts took over to keep her little daughter in the govt's pedophile sexslave brainwash program, "for reasons of national security".

Before World War 2, the Nazis began to recruit these family MPD experts, to research and discover how to manufacture controllable assassins and sexslaves with 100% amnesia.

In Project Paperclip, these same Nazis were recruited by the OSS/CIA/Pentagon/NASA after WW2, to bring their torture methods to USA with immunity from prosecution.

So perhaps the Tam parents were themselves slaves of the Alliance brainwash program, with amnesia of their own tortures? Good fanfic...

Guess who was born in the heart of the Franklin Coverup?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=franklin+cover
up


Quote:


Leslie Lynch King, Jr in a dress (later known as Gerald R. Ford) in 1916

* Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr. (born Leslie Lynch King, Jr.; July 14, 1913 – December 26, 2006) was the 38th President of the United States, serving from 1974 to 1977, and the 40th Vice President of the United States serving from 1973 to 1974.

Ford was born Leslie Lynch King, Jr., on July 14, 1913, at 3202 Woolworth Avenue in Omaha, Nebraska, where his parents lived with his paternal grandparents. His father was Leslie Lynch King, Sr., a wool trader and son of prominent banker Charles Henry King and Martha King. His mother was the former Dorothy Ayer Gardner. Dorothy separated from King Sr. just sixteen days after her son's birth. She took her son with her to the Oak Park, Illinois home of her sister Tannisse and her husband, Clarence Haskins James. From there she moved to the home of her parents, Levi Addison Gardner and his wife, the former Adele Augusta Ayer, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dorothy and Leslie King divorced in December 1913; she gained full custody of their son. Ford's paternal grandfather Charles Henry King paid child support until shortly before his death in 1930.[4]

Gerald Ford later said his biological father had a history of hitting his mother.[5] James M. Cannon, a member of the Ford administration, wrote in a Ford biography that the Kings' separation and divorce were sparked when, a few days after Ford's birth, Leslie King threatened Dorothy with a butcher knife and threatened to kill her, Ford, and Ford's nursemaid. Ford later told confidantes that his father had first hit his mother on their honeymoon for smiling at another man.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford






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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:55 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by keelhauler:

Wow. I never really thought they were involved at all. I always thought they were just cold, detached parents who didn't really care what was happening to their kids. It's an interesting notion, though.



Ambitious "cold detached" people often join secret societies, seduced by the lure of lucrative business networking.

Once inside they find out the Truth -- they'e joined a gangsta death cult with immunity from prosecution. And they kids are fair game...


Welcome to Freemasonry


Welcome to Bohemian Grove

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:34 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Greetings Crellek, Well the story is called Man of Action, a sequel to Man of Honor, the author and I are friends but the content of the story means it isn't something I would read of my own vallision but I read it for them, because they have written some stories that I really do enjoy and find to be quite good. Anyways you can certainly try it if you like, Scarredman is a very nice person.
As for those scenes I don't recall reading any of them specifically, though the second one sounds vaguely familiar, as I recall it was in a story that I didn't fancy. A really good story by Thescarredman is A Man Of Principle about Badger, very well written and good to read, gives a new perspective on things.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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