GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Why did Joss?

POSTED BY: GILOVE2DANCE
UPDATED: Monday, October 20, 2008 20:09
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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:19 AM

GILOVE2DANCE


My question of discussion, which may have been discussed before in which cause please link me there, why did Joss call Jayne Jayne?

To be funny? To reference the song A Boy Named Sue? Because Adam is so incredibly masculine that it makes sense that Jayne is a guy's name and now whenever you hear it you think it's a guy's name and are surprised when it's a girl?


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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:23 AM

AGENTROUKA


I think it was done to imbue Jayne with an absolutely inherent sense of the ridiculous. To give him an egde of humility to compensate for his many extreme qualities.

He's over the top. Muscles, guns, propriety, Jayne isn't exactly tempered. Maaaaanly man taken to a ridiculous extreme, but by giving him a girl's name, this is already parodied, leaving us free to get straight to deeper levels, without having to do the whole "Can this be taken seriously?" song and dance.

In spite of it all, Jayne is complex, after all.

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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:25 AM

FREELANCERTEX


kind of makes an interesting paradox though don't it? He's a huge tough mercenary but is that toughness compensation for his name, that sorta thing XD

'sides, he just seems like a Jayne. Could you picture another name for him?



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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:26 AM

GILOVE2DANCE


Interesting, AGENTROUKA. Very interesting point. Yes, Jayne is most complex and not so dumb I think. He just doesn't have book smarts. Very interesting point.

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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:27 AM

GILOVE2DANCE


Quote:

Originally posted by freelancertex:

Could you picture another name for him?



No...definately not!

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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:37 AM

FREELANCERTEX


lolz, see? It fits XD


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Friday, October 17, 2008 6:39 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Gilove2dance:
Interesting, AGENTROUKA. Very interesting point. Yes, Jayne is most complex and not so dumb I think. He just doesn't have book smarts. Very interesting point.



He has the most "street smarts" of the crew.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Friday, October 17, 2008 8:52 AM

STAPLES


I always thought it was "Jayne" for 'J'ohn W'ayne'

The clear western fighter. I'm probably wrong though.

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Friday, October 17, 2008 9:28 AM

GILOVE2DANCE


Quote:

Originally posted by Staples:
I always thought it was "Jayne" for 'J'ohn W'ayne'

The clear western fighter. I'm probably wrong though.



I've totally never heard that one before! That is sooo incredible cool! I like it!

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Friday, October 17, 2008 12:57 PM

TRAVELER


John Wayne. Jayne. I can go with that. But this is a man's name. Jane is the spelling for a woman.
So Joss takes 500 years into the future and brings back some interesting quirks.

Edit: Just went to Wikipedia and found two women with this spelling. Actually Jayne Cobb was the only man with Jayne as a first name. There were several people with Jayne as a surname.

There were several


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, October 17, 2008 1:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Not to hijack the thread, but still Jayne related....

We saw from OoG that Jayne impresses Mal w/ his ability to track two crafty war vets down, but after that, what does Jayne ever do that even hints at some extraordinary skill or ability ???


( Other than an alleged neck shot w/ a bent scope from 500 yards , that is )

As Simon said...I'm trying to think ...but nothings comin'



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, October 17, 2008 2:51 PM

TRAVELER


Jayne is the only person stupid enough to jump onto a moving train. He looks great in orange knit caps. The Mudders made a statue of him for his heroics. He has a good sense of smell, which told him there was something wrong with Inara's shuttle.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:26 AM

WENDYPOPS


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
But this is a man's name. Jane is the spelling for a woman.
Edit: Just went to Wikipedia and found two women with this spelling.



I know 2 women with the name Jayne.

Also, babynames.com tells me it's a girl's name: http://www.babynames.com/Names/name_display.php?id=8200

--------------------

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:48 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not to hijack the thread, but still Jayne related....

We saw from OoG that Jayne impresses Mal w/ his ability to track two crafty war vets down, but after that, what does Jayne ever do that even hints at some extraordinary skill or ability ???


( Other than an alleged neck shot w/ a bent scope from 500 yards , that is )

As Simon said...I'm trying to think ...but nothings comin'



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



In "War Stories" he analyses the scene of Mal and Wash's abduction, which helps them reach the conclusion that Niska nabbed them.

He is quite useful in getting them out in that same episode, too.

While he doesn't quite do it as Mal wished, Jayne is also not completely bad at intimidating Dobson in the pilot episode.

He is extremely useful in "Heart of Gold".

In the movie, he does an incredible job defending the crew from the Reavers (much as I hate the movie otherwise, Jayne has some amazing moments there).

I'm sure there is more.

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:00 AM

GWEK


Can't speak to the specifics of "Jayne," but I'm pretty sure Joss gave the big strong guy a girl's name because of the irony. He already used the same basic trick in "Alien: Resurrection," with one of the mercenary crew that serves as sort of the "rough draft" of our Big Damn Heroes (I think that guy's name is Carol, but it's been a while since I've seen the movie).

Joss has a habit of using "ironic" names: Buffy (for the mighty slayer) and Spike (why not just call him "Stake"?) also come to mind.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 3:17 PM

BORIS


I don't see Jayne as complex. I see him as having Aspergic tendencies...incredibly smart but essentially driven by primal considerations which may mask his intelligence...He's completely baffled by social conventions, but still craves that connection to others, and never quite gets it right...and to his credit generally doesn't let that phase him...also to his credit he willingly learns from those around him, who in their own way break things down into little chunks so he can understand them. This ultimately leads to him actually caring about the rest of the crew, and understanding how to show that...he still has a long way to go, but he's getting there.

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 8:22 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
I don't see Jayne as complex. I see him as having Aspergic tendencies...incredibly smart but essentially driven by primal considerations which may mask his intelligence...He's completely baffled by social conventions, but still craves that connection to others, and never quite gets it right...and to his credit generally doesn't let that phase him...also to his credit he willingly learns from those around him, who in their own way break things down into little chunks so he can understand them. This ultimately leads to him actually caring about the rest of the crew, and understanding how to show that...he still has a long way to go, but he's getting there.



I wouldn't go so far as to say that Jayne is incredibly smart. He is highly skilled through natural talent and experience - like many people working in a certain trade often are impressive experts on all things pertaining to it if they have any talent for it at all.

I don't see any evidence for incredible smarts, though. Mal has an agile, strategic mind, Zoe's use of verbal wit and her subtle social navigation between Mal and Wash shows a great deal of abstract thinking in both, something we do NOT really see in Jayne at all. Sometimes he has trouble following reasonable conversation and then right on jumps to ridiculous conclusions ("She's in Congress?") without trying to think towards a less ridiculous one. Kaylee is similar in that it's always a now-or-never situation for her, without trying to understand complex motivations.

I am not saying he is stupid. But he hasn't really shown any evidence for being considered especially intelligent, or talented beyond his particular special field.

I think most of what makes Jayne so brutish has to do with upbringing. Lack of education, for one. A scrappy, survival-oriented attitude toward money and morals. Strict rules by an authority figure (His Ma?), that can be secretly avoided, rather than starting negotionations over structural changes.

Jayne strikes me as a child who learned a great deal through observation, about skills and about human interaction. Observsation, not communication. He simply has no picture in his head for educated chatter or self-search. I don't think it's a disorder.

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 3:17 AM

JADEHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not to hijack the thread, but still Jayne related....

We saw from OoG that Jayne impresses Mal w/ his ability to track two crafty war vets down, but after that, what does Jayne ever do that even hints at some extraordinary skill or ability ???


Our Mrs. Reynolds.
His skill with Vera is pretty impressive, considering the range, the fact that Vera is in a suit so he's not using a scope. He gets the intended target and manages to "kill a few folk" just for S&Gs.

"It's all so clear. We can see the madness perfectly from here." - Asylum Satellite 1 - Happiness is the Road - Marillion
"Our forefathers died for the pursuit of happiness, not the sit around and wait for happiness." -Barney -HIMYM

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 5:16 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
I don't see Jayne as complex. I see him as having Aspergic tendencies...incredibly smart but essentially driven by primal considerations which may mask his intelligence...He's completely baffled by social conventions, but still craves that connection to others, and never quite gets it right...and to his credit generally doesn't let that phase him...also to his credit he willingly learns from those around him, who in their own way break things down into little chunks so he can understand them. This ultimately leads to him actually caring about the rest of the crew, and understanding how to show that...he still has a long way to go, but he's getting there.



I have to disagree some what as a mother of an Aspie. He definately has a tendency toward ADHD with the constant interrupting, distractability and the need to constantly touch and feel, but the rest of the things you describe are likely the result of a lack of formal education.

Granted Jayne has the most "street smarts" and more practical criminal experience than most of the crew. He does grow during the series and especially the BDM, but he's still Jayne, the Merc.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Sunday, October 19, 2008 1:15 PM

BORIS


I see where you are coming from,and I sincerely hope my comment wasn't offensive, but I see alot of me in Jayne ( as do many of my friends who are Firefly devotees...they also see alot of me in Mal...I don't know how this works no one can explain it to me) so I think of him as having aspergic tendencies. As you know, Aspergers has many interesting manifestations ...I have Aspergers, had a formal education and Apart from the killing and violence, I am not that different from Jayne socially ( much as it pains me to admit that).It takes a lot of work and a lot of direction/suport for me to soften the edges and not be so primally driven. As for Jayne's intelligence: apparently my highish IQ suggests I am very intelligent, but that doesn't stop me from communicating stupidly and in a bimbo like fashion if I don't give myself time to think...(I hope I have given myself time to think in this response)no offense to anyone who identifies proudly as a bimbo.

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:49 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


No offense at all. I know first hand the struggle Aspies have. If not for the computer my daughter would have no friends at all and anxiety, depression and some obsessive compulsive tendancies are her very closest friends.

In fact, I see more of River in her than Jayne. Not the genius brat or "psychic killer woman" to quote Jayne but the scared girl that has no idea how to navigate interactions with other people. And now that I think about it, maybe a bit of Simon too.



http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Sunday, October 19, 2008 5:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

In "War Stories" he analyses the scene of Mal and Wash's abduction, which helps them reach the conclusion that Niska nabbed them.

He is quite useful in getting them out in that same episode, too.

While he doesn't quite do it as Mal wished, Jayne is also not completely bad at intimidating Dobson in the pilot episode.

He is extremely useful in "Heart of Gold".

In the movie, he does an incredible job defending the crew from the Reavers (much as I hate the movie otherwise, Jayne has some amazing moments there).

I'm sure there is more.



Oh, the man's an imposing figure, I'll give you that. And knows his weapons and how to use them. But it was Jayne's ability to track Serenity down which caught Mal's attention. Either that, or Mal was simply trying to stall for time and find , yet another way out, of a dead end situation.

i think Mal figured Jayne wasn't a complete buffoon, like his 2 henchmen were. Crook though he was, Mal saw he could get out of a jam by reasoning w/ Jayne and keeping from giving up the loot the other guys were after.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:15 PM

AMDOBELL


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Can't speak to the specifics of "Jayne," but I'm pretty sure Joss gave the big strong guy a girl's name because of the irony. He already used the same basic trick in "Alien: Resurrection," with one of the mercenary crew that serves as sort of the "rough draft" of our Big Damn Heroes (I think that guy's name is Carol, but it's been a while since I've seen the movie).

Joss has a habit of using "ironic" names: Buffy (for the mighty slayer) and Spike (why not just call him "Stake"?) also come to mind.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



....................

I'm English and over here Jayne or Jane is a girl's name. I agree that Joss has probably gone for the irony or just got a kick out of giving the biggest bad ass on the boat a girl's name. Amused about the mention of Carol as there have been a number of male American actors with that girl's name as their Christian name, such as the comedy actor Carol O'Connor although he spells it a little differently. And John Wayne of course was originally Marion Morrison, and Marion is a girl's name. I have noticed it happens quite a lot so calling our beloved mercenary Jayne didn't surprise me as much as it amused the heck out of me. Plus it gives Jayne the excuse to glower menacingly at anyone dumb enough to make fun of his name.

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:28 PM

VERASAMUELS


Apparently Jayne has been a boy's name in the past. Like Carol [and in some countries that's still a fella's name].

Other skills/observations from those already mentioned:-

He can ride a horse.
He can drive a wagon with horses.
He can play guitar.
He can sing [it's not the greatest baritone, but it isn't bad either].
He's pretty dextrous.
He's surprisingly tender [as well as passionate and lusty!] with Helen in 'Heart of Gold'.
There are brief flashes of vulnerability.
He loves his mother.
He likes receiving presents.
He has a wicked sense of humour.
He's usually fearless [and deadly] in a fight.


Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Talk has been made of how Jayne was modeled after
Warren Oates, Eastwood, John Wayne, Eli Wallach characters. John Wayne's name was Marion. John Wayne becomes Jayne, works for me. Cobb to me accounted for his pricky nature, deriving from Ty Cobb, I reckoned.
For the storyline derivation, it would likely come from a family name of Jayne or similar, and he may be named for that family name of Jayne. Even now, the way some people spell their names and pronouns like wymmin makes a decent case for how things will be 500 years from now.

The king's name of Malcolm seemed fitting. The highly feminine Zoe for the warrior woman seemed the counterpoint to Jayne. Book seemed somewhat educamated.
With some named after a location, like Phoenix and River, Jayne could have also been a town or State.

The interogation scene in the Pilot seemed to have great portend for how wise and cunning Jayne could be, but was never followed through with in the rest of the show, like the concept was dropped and/or forgotten. Jayne seems funnier when dumber. Watch that interogation scene again sometime, and how Jayne sees through so many things. I think much of it was lost because the Pilot was the last to be aired, and so many browncoats had already discounted jayne's abilities by then.

In addition to tracking down Mal & Zoe, he shot his partner in periphery without a glance.
Dressing up Vera for OMR, that was a tricky shot requiring unfathonable accuracy, and timing.
He could be of great help to Book while lifting weights.
He seriously hampered Crow, even though his aim was off due to massive tranquilizers.

I have wondered if Badger, Crow, River, Patience, were supposed to be descended from Indians/Native Americans.
Bester seemed.....not quite the best.

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:07 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Oh, the man's an imposing figure, I'll give you that. And knows his weapons and how to use them. But it was Jayne's ability to track Serenity down which caught Mal's attention. Either that, or Mal was simply trying to stall for time and find , yet another way out, of a dead end situation.

i think Mal figured Jayne wasn't a complete buffoon, like his 2 henchmen were. Crook though he was, Mal saw he could get out of a jam by reasoning w/ Jayne and keeping from giving up the loot the other guys were after.




I'm not sure what you are trying to say... Where do we disagree?

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Monday, October 20, 2008 12:11 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


First time ever I saw Firefly and heard Jayne's name I immediately thought of the popular Johnny Cash song "A Boy Named Sue."

I thought that Joss also was a fan of this song and the story of how a father wanted to make his son tough because he would not be there to guide him in that direction. I think that Jayne is the oldest of a large family with his mom doing all the raising because his father left.

But I like the John Wayne thing the most. Joss does have a strange sense of humor and probably thought it ironic to name one of his characters, perhaps the toughest of the crew, Jayne.

If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak!

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Monday, October 20, 2008 5:32 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Cobb to me accounted for his pricky nature, deriving from Ty Cobb, I reckoned.



Or maybe from SILVERADO. There are a surprising number of Firefly names in that movie... enough that it makes me wonder if Joss was watching it late one night while working on a draft of the FIREFLY pilot...

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, October 20, 2008 11:18 AM

ALLIETHORN7


As I remember, I heard Joss mention on somesuch commentary that Jayne was named ironically, being that the name Jane means "Gentle" or somesuch words of the like. Seems to make sense to me, actually. Sounds very Joss like.

-Danny

It's bugging me
grating me
and twisting me around

yeah I'm endlessly
caving in
and turning inside out

because I want it now
I want it now
give me your heart and your soul
and I'm breaking out
I'm breaking out
last chance to lose control

The Band of the week is... Muse

Gott weiƟ ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Monday, October 20, 2008 11:47 AM

SUIWAY


I don't know about Jayne being a guys name but I'm a girl and my middle name is Jayne, spelled that way too. I was pretty excited when I found out I had the same name and I've considered switching to it instead of my first name.

Jayne is definitely deeper than just walking muscles. He's not too bright in some areas but he's smart in others. I can think of several examples but I think the best would be the endings of Jaynestown and Ariel and the beginning of The Message. In Jaynestown although he indulges in his fame for a little while he strongly believes that he doesn't deserve any of it and he's pretty torn up by the death of the kid that saved his life. In Ariel the whole conversation between him and Mal at the very end, how he shows how he really is sorry for what he did and how much he cares about what the rest of the crew think of him. And then of course the beginning of The Message when you find out he sends money to his mom and his sister. While Jayne isn't all that sharp he's got a bigger heart than he shows.

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Monday, October 20, 2008 8:09 PM

BORIS


Hey ncbrowncoat, yeah thank goodness for the internet...it helped me understand and accept myself a whole lot better once I could communicate with like souls.
I was more like River when I was younger, but unfortunately lost that as I got dragged out of myself and into the real world and became infested with cynicism and the need to survive stupid societal expectations. (yech!)... I hope your daughter doesn't have to endure too much of the bad stuff, People should feel free to experience a unique way of perceiving things without having to worry about unecessary pressures.:-)


Rose.

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