GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Official Map of the 'Verse at QMX

POSTED BY: MICJWELCH
UPDATED: Monday, May 4, 2009 00:17
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 18695
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Sunday, November 16, 2008 6:26 PM

MICJWELCH


QMX today announced the official map of the 'verse. There's lots of information at http://www.fireflyshipworks.com/2008/11/map-of-the-verse/





"It’s frickin’ great." - Nathan Fillion

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Sunday, November 16, 2008 6:41 PM

ANONYMOUS1


And it is shiny!

Here is Serenitystuff's writeup on it.

http://www.serenitystuff.com/2008/11/16/qmx-announces-the-official-map
-of-the-verse
/


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Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:40 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Super Shiny!!
Looks like not available for a week or so. Did not see a phone number to order from.
Can somebody find a phone number to place orders from? and perhaps a reminder when it is actually available for order.

Thanks a bunch.

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Monday, November 17, 2008 5:55 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Very shiny indeed!

Got to get one of those to frame and hang in the den.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!



Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Officer / X.O. Echo Company



http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html


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Monday, November 17, 2008 7:37 AM

TUJIAOZUO


Holy @%$&! Scratch the muppet, I want one of those!

You know, for fan ficcing purposes....

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Monday, November 17, 2008 10:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


It's very shiny they have both the fold up and the roll up, so I can get one of each.

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 3:22 AM

NCBROWNCOAT

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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:16 PM

ANONYMOUS1


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Super Shiny!!
Looks like not available for a week or so. Did not see a phone number to order from.
Can somebody find a phone number to place orders from? and perhaps a reminder when it is actually available for order.

Thanks a bunch.



Didn't find a phone number. You can sign up for a newsletter email alerts from QMX. Left side of page. I signed up when they first opened. Shiny emails.

http://store.quantummechanix.com/Complete-and-Official-Map-of-the-Vers
e_p_1-54.html


Quote:

Note: The Map of the Verse will be available for the first time at Creation Entertainment's Serenity convention in Burbank, CA Nov. 22-23 and thereafter from this website and authorized QMx resellers.


So probably late on the 23rd or on Monday the 24th.



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Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Shiny Shiny Shiny!

Not sure if anybody has heard, but this show has been off the air for about 6 years now. Perhaps there is no interest in a show, when we are getting better and niftier gadgets created for us than any other show around.

I wonder if anyboyd could convince QMX to produce a book on the verse and stuff. Something more for us to buy.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:35 AM

MICJWELCH


I think that as long as we're buying stuff from these guys, they'll keep making it. Here's what they said about requirements for what they sell (from http://www.fireflyshipworks.com/2008/11/marian-calls-geek-music/).

Quote:

A QMx product must be unique, expertly designed, drool-worthy (although you shouldn’t need to be a fan to think so), and, most importantly, if we didn’t do it, probably no one else would.


If you want more stuff from them, support them, and make comments on http://www.fireflyshipworks.com/. They really do read them.



"It’s frickin’ great." - Nathan Fillion

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:09 AM

ANONYMOUS1


Quote:

Originally posted by micjwelch:
I think that as long as we're buying stuff from these guys, they'll keep making it. Here's what they said about requirements for what they sell (from http://www.fireflyshipworks.com/2008/11/marian-calls-geek-music/).

Quote:

A QMx product must be unique, expertly designed, drool-worthy (although you shouldn’t need to be a fan to think so), and, most importantly, if we didn’t do it, probably no one else would.


If you want more stuff from them, support them, and make comments on http://www.fireflyshipworks.com/. They really do read them.



I think also that they make stuff they themselves want. And they are Browncoats. And they hire Browncoats to make stuff. So we get shiny stuff to buy!


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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:09 AM

QMXANDY


Hey there -

Just wanted to let you know the Map will be available direct off our website starting next week: http://store.quantummechanix.com. And we will have a bunch at the Creation con this weekend.

Personally, I can't wait to get mine. Got a space all picked out on the wall and everything ;-)

- Andy


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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:07 AM

NBZ


I am wondering... how "Official" is the map?

It has similarities to the one in Serenity, but also looks a little different.

So... is this guesswork from the maps in the series/movie, or is it officially sanctioned and signed off from insider knowledge?

If on the other hand its just guess work, but they have a licence to print merchandise, it is worthless.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:26 AM

QMXANDY


That's a great question, NBZ; let me answer it as thoroughly and accurately as I can:

It's an official product, licensed and approved by Universal. As for it looking a little different than the Verse map from the movie – the map you see in the classroom scene of the movie is just The Core or White Sun system. The only time you see the whole of the Verse is for a split second before the computer screen zooms in on Miranda. That map was designed by Geoffrey Mandel who also designed this map and it's consistent with the five-system star cluster he designed for that shot.

We spent two years researching this and have made every effort to make it comprehensive. Every planet and moon mentioned in the series and movie are there, plus all the planets from maps and art developed for the movie that might not have seen screen time. We also incorporated new worlds from licensed products – notably the Serenity RPG and Dark Horse comics. Most importantly, we ensured that story continuity from both the series and movie work in this model of the Verse. So, distances, travel times and relative position are as consistent as possible.

Margaret Weiss Productions (makers of the Serenity RPG) have even endorsed the map:

Quote:

"The Map of the Verse is gorgeous and informative — something any Browncoat is going to want but an absolute must-have for players of the Serenity Role Playing Game as it will give major guidance to players and Gamer Masters about where the planets and moons of this star cluster sit. The map is a gao guhn piece of art, and I can't wait to have one hanging on my office wall!" — Jamie Chambers (author and designer, Serenity Role Playing Game)


I believe this is the most detailed and accurate map that it's possible to make at this time. Having said that, it's Joss' universe and he can change it any time he wants. So it's always possible he could do something to contradict this model if he felt it served the story he was creating.

And we'd be thrilled if he did, if only because it would mean we'd have more Serenity content from Joss ;-)


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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:59 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Oh the agony of being an astronomer!

If I'm reading this correctly, the verse is a multiple star system. Which makes some sense given the number of planets, but 5 stars? Am I seeing this correctly? 5? I always figured there were 2 stars to accomidate 200+ worlds, but 5?

One of the things I loved about Firefly was the gritty realness of everything. Even the technology of the full burn is a controlled fusion reaction, a technology I believe is one day coming. But the idea of 5 stars being able to co-exist within a stable system of planets is a big stretch. The gravitational attractions of 5 stellar mass bodies would pull and stretch planet orbits into crazy elipses and loops, with eventual deaths of bodies that were pulled upon by one star and flung into another, over millions of years. I had figured on a 2 star binary system with lots of gas giants that had earth mass moons, like Titan in the Saturn system or Ganymede and Callisto around Jupiter.

Ah, well. I guess I need to just go with it.

And please don't pick a fight with me about it, I know too much about astronomy to back down if someone tries. I said I'd go with it.



Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:06 AM

WHOZIT


Now I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas Thanks for the info.

I'm going to microwave a bagel and have sex with it - Peter Griffin

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:33 AM

NBZ


Thanks for the info.

(and by worthless, I did not mean worthless. Just worth less :P)

@BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN: The movie did seem to indicate between 5 and 7 stars/gas giants (could not really tell)

The problem with your picture/dislike is "over millions of years." This place does not have to exist for that long. There is always the possibility to stay a couple of millenia or less and move on to something better? people's lives will still not lasts hundreds of years, so the timescale of millions of years probably does not matter.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:07 PM

QMXANDY


Yeah, well, we saw the same flaw. But sometimes when you have a starting point that's defined for you, and may not have been developed with a strong science foundation in mind, you have to work backward into a theory that fits the model you're given.

In this case, we theorized that The Verse was formed when several lower gravity suns came within the gravitational influence of the stronger White Sun and formed a rudimentary orbital system where the star systems operate almost like planets. Our Big Science Brains theorize that the system would thus be inherently unstable and would break apart again in 25K to 50K years or so.

More than long enough for humans to use up all the resources, don't ya think?

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:05 PM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Hmm. OK, I like where you were going with this.

My advice, if you want a strong science angle, red dwarf stars are your FRIENDS. Red dwarfs constitute 80% of the milky way, are very very dim and quite cold on a stellar level. They burn their hydrogen fuel at a scale a fraction the speed of a star like our sun. Where our sun is expected to live 5 billion more years, a red dwarf lives more like 50-80 billion.

Dwarfs are awsome because they are so very common and often pair up with other stellar masses, being part of binary and trinary systems frequently. Their radiation levels are lower, but that just means a planet needs to orbit closer to be in the "Sweet Spot" for life.

The troubling stars are Blue and White ones. These stars are typically upwards of 5 times larger than our sun and kick out TONS of radiation. They tend to irradiate everything around them and are terrible for lifeforms of any kind. An earth-like body orbiting a star like that would need to be further away to avoid the deadly effects produced by the intense nucular fire nearby, but even then there is the issue of earth plantlife adapted to a yellow star trying to live off radiation from a blue or white one.

There are of course ways around these issues. One could always write into their fiction that a particular planet has a planetary radiation shield or something. I also see an issue with not having blue star cannon from TV. Whenever the characters were walking around, things tended to look "normal" (i.e. yellow star) as opposed to the blue look from a film like pitch black. When the characters were on miranda things looked whitewashed though, perhaps a case for a white star.

If I were to change anything about the 'verse map, it might be to limit it to 1 blue or white star. That way, there isn't the troubling issue of the intense gravity of either one yanking planets into elipses and ultimate demise. I'd increase the red dwarfs since they are weak and dim. I'd have at least 1 yellow star.

Here's a good wikipedia link of a red dwarf that orbits a yellow star and they both orbit a white one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_188753


Perhaps a White/yellow binary system that captured 3 red dwarfs as the star system orbited the galactic center over...say....2 billion years (equals about 8 galactic center orbits if you were to calculate being in an outter spiral as like we are currently)

You'd only want it to be 2 billion years old, else you run the risk of the blue/white star going suoernova, an eventual fate and a horrible event to all within 20 light years.

It looks as though your map is done so my thoughts may be late, but if I had anything to change....those things would be it.

Summary:
1 monster blue or white central body
1 yellow sun to form the orginial binary
3 captured red dwarfs
lots of gas giants with moons
lots of rocky terrestrials too.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that someone finally thought this through enough to make a map. Awsome, and thank you for it.


Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:41 PM

ANONYMOUS1


Quote:

Originally posted by QMxAndy:
Our Big Science Brains theorize that the system would thus be inherently unstable and would break apart again in 25K to 50K years or so.



Why assume that all the suns are natural occuring? And that all the suns are actually suns. Maybe they just look like suns from the outside.

Gravity drives. Fusion. Big ball of hydrogen etc. First experiment. Darn, it turned out blue. It is okay, we will just turn the logo from Yellow Sun to Blue Sun and act like we were always trying for a blue sun.

willbueche on http://whedonesque.com/comments/18160#268290 wrote | November 19, 23:00 CET
Quote:

Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 ...book even created a situation in which our own Jupiter collapsed and ignited, forming a smaller sun in orbit around our sun. This second, smaller sun provided a nice twilight effect at night from then on. (No more pitch-black nights on Earth any more). So if was good enough for that most "science" minded of all science fiction writers, it must be thought possible.

I love the way that the blue sun's satellites are at an off-kilter orbit compared to the rest. Fitting!






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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:57 PM

QMXANDY


BSCM -

Okay, so I think this might make you even happier: There is an extensive white paper on the scientific background of the Verse that one of our researchers prepared so that the designer could make sure the graphics were as accurate as possible. We're prepping it for eventual release and I think it'll answer a lot of your questions. However, we probably won't be able to release it for at least a few more weeks.

Meanwhile, here's what it has to say about the stellar classes of the five primaries:

White Sun – Class A0
Georgia – Class G0
Red Sun – Class G5
Kalidasa – Class F5
Blue Sun – Class F0

What do you think?




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Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by QMxAndy:
BSCM -

Okay, so I think this might make you even happier: There is an extensive white paper on the scientific background of the Verse that one of our researchers prepared so that the designer could make sure the graphics were as accurate as possible. We're prepping it for eventual release and I think it'll answer a lot of your questions. However, we probably won't be able to release it for at least a few more weeks.

Meanwhile, here's what it has to say about the stellar classes of the five primaries:

White Sun – Class A0
Georgia – Class G0
Red Sun – Class G5
Kalidasa – Class F5
Blue Sun – Class F0

What do you think?






Although the instability made me uneasy, I had assumed that a civilization that traveled across space for generations and could arrive in the new verse, they could conjure the path of each body and predict collision prior to the actual occurrance, thus negating the problem we think it was.

When I mentioned a book about this subject, I was imagining something like a Visual Companion to this verse map, but I didn't say that. Like details about which body was referenced in the story lines, specifically or obliquely - which planet was KayLee from, and Bester was dropped off on? which was Wash from? Which was near the 3 moon alingment in the U-Day scene of Train Job? Was it Ezra, or just near Ezra?
Stuff like that. more goodiness for us to devour.
If the details of travel speed, including that formula using AU which escapes me now, would also be cool. Travel times from one location to another, including which times of year, which arcs of orbit, like when (Serenity script) River says "IF WE LEAVE NOW AT FULL BURN, will get (from Miranda) to Mr Universe's place in 4 hours" suggesting the changing orbits would change the travel distance.

Thanks a bunch. besides internet money, is there a phone number we can place real orders on?

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:53 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by QMxAndy:

Meanwhile, here's what it has to say about the stellar classes of the five primaries:

White Sun – Class A0
Georgia – Class G0
Red Sun – Class G5
Kalidasa – Class F5
Blue Sun – Class F0

What do you think?



Let me say that I'm glad your group obviously did your homework on stellar classification.

For those of you reading this who don't know what star classes are, the letter refers to a stellar size class and the number is a value of luminosity. Stars range from largest to smallest in the order of O,B,A,F,G,K,M Here is an awsome wiki article with a perfect scale model pic of spectral comparisions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification

O stars are huge, hot, and die quick violent deaths in supernova. They would irratiate everything around them. I don't see one in the 'verse system. This is a good thing. These stars are Blue. They are also very rare, only 1 star in 3 million is an O in the milky way. These are the kinds of stars that create black holes when they die.

M stars are less hot but will still irradiate most stuff around them. They live longer but still die violently. Again, not in the 'verse system...a good thing. M stars are Blue-White and create neutron stars after they die.

A stars are much smaller than the O's and M's. You can see that in the wiki article. Current theory is that a habitable planet could be maintained around an 'A' star if there was a form of radiation shielding. 'A' stars are white

F,G,&K stars are the kinds that terrestrials are theorized to orbit. Our sun is a G. 15% of all stars in the galaxy fall into this range, and several are visible in the night sky. F stars are yellow-white, G's are yellow, and K's are orange.

M stars are small and cold. We refer to them as red dwarfs. Red dwarfs are very very common in the galaxy, almost 80% of all stars. They tend to wind up in binary and trinary systems as a function of their weak gravity and tendancy to get caught by something else during protostar formation. Theory holds that Jupiter is a failed red dwarf star. Had Jupiter acclumulated 4 times more mass during it's formation, fusion would have ignited and we'd be living in a binary system. This is what the aliens in 2010 did to Jupiter, per Arthur C Clarke. Someone mentioned that above.

My main issues yesterday were in noting that there was a blue star in the system. Knowing what I do about stars, I immediately calculated a titanic fusion monster that would yank most planets into deaths and irradiate the others. Kepler's laws demand that the largest body of the 'Verse be in the "Center". In this case, that would be the White sun. A Blue star elsewhere would be larger, per spectral classifications. Blue-white and blue stars are HUGE. Their gravitions are much much larger than a star like white sun. Their overwhelming power would yank small planets around like debris in a hurricane. When I noted "over millions of years" in a previous post I was refering to the simple fact that any star system in the milky way is far older than our feeble lifetimes. When humanity in the firefly cannon discovered this star system, there would have been nothing there to land on had it been a blue supergiant locked in a tug with an A white star, with 3 other smaller bodies moving around too. Planets would long ago have been tugged and yanked into elipses by the competing forces of the blue and white suns ultimately flinging bodies into any of the other 3 stars. There might have been a smattering of objects left in close, hot orbits to any of the 5 stars, but it'd be a pipe dream to have 200+ worlds.

That was the core of my analysis.

However, if the blue sun became yellow....or orange...things change. Now there is a star that won't overpower the orbital paths of planets around other stars and things work better. I note that the stellar class of blue sun is F0, making it really a yellow-white. Why not change it to exactly that? I also thought you could make this map a little cooler with a red dwarf in an orbit not in the plane of everything else. i.e. a dwarf that was "captured" by white sun during the millions of years of stellar drift around the galactic center. Consider pluto's orbit around our sun.

Honestly, this whole map can actually work if the blue star is replaced with a yellow-white one. It excites me to think about it. I said before I loved firefly when I first laid my eyes on the pilot episode for it's realness and truth. Humanity is living in the Fusion age of technology, the next step after the Information age. I like that. Fusion tech for full burn, fission tech for general travel, chemical tech for takeoffs and landings...it worked perfectly.

There are 2 final issues that crop up in my mind when i look at the verse map.

1. With 5 stars, nightime is a non-event. Several episodes of Firefly showed us things happening at night.
--Mal practices swordfighting at night in shindig. With the duel at dawn.
--Higgins moon was dark when Higgins let Stitch out of the hotbox.
--It was night during the battle of serinity valley.
There are many other examples.

Possible solution: increase red dwarfs. They are dim and at a great distance would shine with an intensity of the moon. Yellow stars would be too bright.

2. Plantlife on earth is adapted to grow under a yellow sun. Red dwarfs issue out too much infrared and White stars issue too much ultraviolet. Plants growning under a red dwarf would be stunted and the white sun would kill unprotected plantlife.

Possible solution: Embrace this fact and use it as a reason for the hardscrabble life of independent worlds. When it's hard to grow crops because of a weak red star and the Alliance won't help...life generally sucks. Plants that need lots of sunlight (like trees) won't grow well. But plants that don't..like sagebrush, grasses, or thorny bushes...will. Sounds like Whitefall to me. Also sounds like Jan-Ying, Higgins moon, and where they pulled the Train Job. At the other end of the spectrum, Radiation shield technology will mitigate issues related to plantlife around white sun. As whitewashed as Miranda looked, if it orbited white sun, it would make sense.

Let me finally say that I understand the difficulity of taking already established cannon and trying to back into more cannon. Sometimes non-science type writters put in something that later has to be dealt with...in illogical ways. I appriciate the work you've done.

Perhaps I added to your thoughts?

BSCM


Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:36 PM

ANONYMOUS1


Psst. I was just able to order the map off the website. I used the promo code that was in the QMX Insider email and got a discount. Make sure if you want the Rolled (no creases) that you check that box because the default is folded.

http://store.quantummechanix.com/Complete-and-Official-Map-of-the-Vers
e_p_1-54.html


Whoo-hoo!

Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
besides internet money, is there a phone number we can place real orders on?



jewelstaitefan,

Email one of the emails on http://www.quantummechanix.com/about.html
and ask them if they will take a phone order or if they have a vendor that will take a phone order.

Also a local comic book store might be able to order it for you.

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Friday, November 28, 2008 11:11 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I got a shiny email.

I am told phone orders can be taken by Jessica at QMX at the following numbers:
610-489-7690 and 866-623-0055

It seems weekdays are the timeframe.

Thanks for the address Anon-one.

I hope she doesn't mind my posting the numbers.

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Saturday, November 29, 2008 10:09 PM

CREVANREAVER


OK, let's sum it up:

The Verse is a star cluster of five distinct star systems composed of seven protostars, seven gas giants, and 215 terraformed planets and moons. The five stars are White Sun (Class A0), Red Sun (Class G5), Blue Sun (Class F0), Georgia (Class G0), and Kalidasa (Class F5). The cluster was formed when the four lower gravity stars came within the gravitational influence of the stronger White Sun and formed a rudimentary orbital system where the star systems operate similar to planets orbiting a single star. The Verse is inherently unstable and it is theorized that it will break apart again in 25,000 to 50,000 years or so.

The planet Hera (along with Shadow and Sturges) orbits the protostar Murphy in the Georgia system. Located on the inner edge of The Border, it is an ideal jumping-off point for travelers going to The Core or out to The Rim. In combination with Persephone – which orbits a stellated gas giant on the outer edge of The Core – Hera/Persephone form a kind of "airlock" between The Core and the rest of the Verse, making it a target of great strategic importance. That's why Hera was so important that the Independent Faction's loss of a single battle there ended the war decisively.

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 5:07 AM

GREENFAERIE


I got my map, and it's amazing! For those that want an online reference based on this map, I have posted it here:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=21340&nid=30023

It's not as beautiful as the real thing, of course, but I wanted something on my computer screen for my Serenity RPG.

(a.k.a. wydraz)

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:04 AM

CREVANREAVER


Wow, thanks for the contribution Greenfaerie!

I checked out your site by the way. It's great.

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Monday, December 1, 2008 2:47 AM

40THIEVES


hey guys, first time posting (lurking for a while tho)

I've been thinking about this map since it was announced. Does it have the length of the years for each planet? If it does then it could be possible to build some sort of navigation system. You'd need to map each of the planet's orbits into some computer database, so that at a given time you would know each of the planets was. It's then case of working out a route and the time taken to get there - a pretty useful program (especially for RPGers, if you like that sort of thing). I have no idea about how to go about doing that sort of thing tho, plus it sounds like a massive job.

Ali

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Monday, December 1, 2008 7:47 AM

PLATONIST


Thanks for posting this map! and the link, using it the BDM makes little sense though, Serenity can't go from Lilac (in the Blue Sun System) to Beaumonde (in the Yellow colored system) and back to Haven (in the Blue Sun System) and then be a few hours out from Inara, I'm assuming she is on a moon in the Blue Sun System (in TLB Mal describes the Training House location as a crap ass part of space he can't find any work in) and then on to Haven, Miranda, and so forth. Now granted it has been a while since I took Astronomy 101, but that's a lot of System hopping for one little spacecraft that doesn't have light speed capabilities and even if it did it would take longer than a week or two to travel these great distances.

Can anyone explain this?

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Monday, December 1, 2008 8:08 AM

HELL'S KITTEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Platonist:
Can anyone explain this?

Oh! I know, I know!

Answer: Joss and the artists aren't astrophysicists!

Really... I think it's just meant to look pretty than actually be feasible. ^__^



http://www.flickr.com/photos/sara013

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Monday, December 1, 2008 9:55 AM

GREENFAERIE


Platonist wrote:
"Serenity can't go from Lilac (in the Blue Sun System) to Beaumonde (in the Yellow colored system) and back to Haven (in the Blue Sun System) and then be a few hours out from Inara, I'm assuming she is on a moon in the Blue Sun System..."

If you look at the overview map, the "Yellow colored system" of Kalidasa is in an orbit around the White sun system that can take the entire system fairly close to the Blue sun system. While the map shows the Kalidasa system as being on the opposite site of the 'Verse, those systems are in motion, and can come close to one another at some time during their orbits.

Also the scale indicates that all five of these star systems are very close together. If our solar system were where the White Sun system is, Pluto would be almost out to the Georgia system!

And Serenity is a mighty fast ship. It can and has crossed great distances in a matter of hours. Not light speed, just really really fast speed.

(a.k.a. wydraz)

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Monday, December 1, 2008 11:09 AM

PLATONIST


Thanks! That explains everything; it is surely the prettiest map of any universe I've ever seen.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:55 AM

SCREWTHEALLIANCE


Here's my two bits, plus a desperate request.

Firstly, the astronomy geeks are right: this system is inherently unstable. But for human colonization purposes, 1000 years is a perfectly decent amount of time to inhabit a system whose instability will not be manifested for tens of thousands of years.

Secondly, in regards to terraformation: I've done a fairly extensive amount of research on the subject (I'm a sci fi writer by trade) and the best way to engineer a planet to habitation in such situations is with the use of a soliel, as described in Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars series. A soliel is a permanantly orbiting station placed between the terraformed body and the star, designed to augment, transform or reduce the amount and color of light from the star. For large gas giants, a single soliel, placed properly would theoretically allow the entire system to be terraformed. Sure, there's a lot of "black box" technology involved, but the basic principals are sound: if it's too hot, the soliel cools it down. If it's too cold, the soliel heats it up.

Thirdly, while I love the map, I see lots of spots for additional worlds. There aren't any trojan bodies that I can see, for example, nor any readily-identified "rogue" bodies in semi-stationary orbits, nor any "plutonic" bodies hanging out in the Oort cloud. With the terraforming technology available, all of these would be potential living worlds. Plus on the Miranda map from the movie there seemed to be several small red dwarfs/protostars in far orbit of the White Sun.

With 215 worlds, why do I need more? Purely selfish reasons, I assure you. Before this map came out I poored over the Miranda map and tried to figure it out on my own. While I wasn't too far off base, I also put a butt-load of my fanfic worlds in the picture, for lack of better intel. My problem now is that I won't be getting the map until Christmas, and that kind of messes with a project I'm working on.

I'll go ahead and spill the beans: for the last year or two, I've been hammering my fanfic notes into the (wait for it) Concise History Of The Unification War And Its Immediate Aftermath. No lie. I plot out the settlement of the 'verse, the waves of immigrants and their social/political systems, patterns of belief, etc., take the technological and cultural issues implicit in the 'verse as seen into account, and try to tell a compelling story about the war without directly referencing ANY characters from the show.

Which means that the 250 pages or so I have now are moot, because of this map. Don't get me wrong -- it's shiny as a diamond -- but it's stepping on my creative buzz. I want my fanfic and such to be as canon as possible. So I'll eventually try to re-write it with the new map taken into account.

But until I get the map for X-mas, could someone who has a copy PLEASE let me know which planets and moons are orbiting around WHICH stars? It's kind of important, and while I can glean some of it from the screen shots, I need to know where freakin' Boros is. And Persephone. And other stuff. Anyone willing to do that will get a free copy of my now-obsolete History, and a promise of a bound copy of the revision, once made.

Help a brotha out?

ScrewtheAlliance

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:18 AM

LEMMING


Well, many of your questions will be answered by the "white paper" that should be available online fairly soon. This has a timeline, assumed developments, discoveries and a catalogue of all the bodies on the map. As Andy Gore has said, this is the best, most accurate map we can make with the information currently at hand. It's workable, at least in human timescales.

Note, the map shows *only* the terraformed or terraformable worlds and moons. There is indeed room for trojans, heavy G rocks and other stuff if Joss (or fan writers :-) dreams it up.

Or Joss gets the chance to revisit the Verse and we have to start all over with new info :-)

As to which star....well, it will be discovered in about 2040. Despite best efforts, in the end it had to be a fictional system in Taurus, about 40 LY away.

Hope that helps.

Nick
(The Signal)

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:32 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Nick,

I'm still troubled by the 2 deep flaws:

Problem #1. Blue sun's very existance
Problem #2. The lack of nighttime on these worlds.

Problem #1 explained: I'm being honest here, the blue star is not possible. I'm not making this up. Blue stars are gravity monsters, they irriadiate everything around them, and they die quickly. Plants trying to grow under a blue star will be destroyed. People will get cancer and die. If the star is actually smaller, as it seems to appear to be in the picture, then it can't be blue. This is just a plain fact related to the rules that govern stars. Is there a blue sun in the verse strictly because of the Blue Sun Corp? If so, abandon it I say. There can be other interesting corp mottos beyond "Live life with Blue Sun". Perhaps "Blue Sun: Bringing more light to the verse than the other 5" in reference to the new unified government, and we'd know the dark undertones. What I'm saying is I think there is a blue star on this map because of the corporation. If so, I'd be resolved to let it go.

Problem #2 Explained: The way these planets orbit leaves no room for nighttime on any world but the most rim dwelling and only when pointed into the black before they orbit back. There are plenty of "nights" in the series. Red Dwarfs solve this issue but there is only 1 red sun in the system. Red dwarfs are common in the milky way and multiple red dwarfs in the 'verse star system is absoutely plausable. If there was 1 white sun, 1 yellow sun, and 3 red and/or orange stars, nighttime can exist on some worlds at times. (consider the battle of Serenity Valley, on Hera a core world. It was night during the portion of the battle we saw in the pilot episode)

I fear that the answer is simply "Sorry logic mistakes were made, but what's done is done and the maps are printed."

If there is any chance at all to fix the logic flaws, I recommend this:

1. Keep White Sun in the center.
2. Keep 1 yellow star. Make it idenical in illumination and mass to our sun. Place the core alliance worlds there.
3. Change all other suns to 2 red dwarfs and 1 weak orange sun. This will create climates on those planets of weak radiation outputs and promote the hardscrable growth we see on places like Whitefall, Jan Ying, and Higgins Moon. The Orange star will also have a sweet spot around it for a planet like Persophine, a world that seems to be a "border-core", containing both nobles like Warrick Harrow or Atherton Wing along side rifraf like Badger and others seen at the Eavestown Docks.

Short verson of my 5 stars.
White Sun - Same as seen on the map
Georga - A Yellow Star identical in mass to our sun
Kaldasa (sp?) - A weak Orange star
Red Sun - A Red Dwarf
Blue Sun - Change to another Red dwarf. Change also the orbital plane and proclaim it a star "captured" by White Sun during stellar drift around the Galactic core.


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Thursday, December 4, 2008 12:20 PM

LEMMING


Well in essence, yes. It's done and in print.

The fact is, despite some of the trappings of hard SF, Firefly and Serenity were never genuine "hard" science fiction. Joss always said something like "don't ask me science questions or I'll cry!"

No matter what you do, fitting everything that is in "canon" to a real star system is not possible with the infiormation that came direct from Universal as regards the structure of The Verse. We (I say we, this was mostly before I was involved) *did* try to make it work with Sirius as a pattern for a trinary system, which in physics terms did mostly work. But word came down that this was not how it was, so a lot of hard work had to be dropped. However fitting canon became much easier with the 5 star model.

It's a wonderful fictional Verse and while the map is not perfect, it's the best possible at the moment. If you can swallow gravity control and terraforming in decades, a few clashes with real cosmology should be easy :-)

There is night. At the distances that exist even in this very compact Verse, a star the size of Old Sol would be very bright for sure, but still barely a disc. At the distance of Jupiter, would the Jovian moons for example experience what we would consider full daylight? I don't think so. I don't dispute that some worlds would probably have drastically different sidereal periods to Earth normal, but adjustments would be possible. We have to assume that.

The Blue Sun is then "an anomally" (my speculation), a star with a distinctly blue tinge that nevertheless behaves unlike any existing blue star. (I know, I know, physics, but what ya gonna do?) Joss says there's a Blue Sun and that's that. (Note that it is in a very different orbital plane to the other members of the system and is thus more likely to be a more recent and temporary member)

The fact that the Map is generating such interest and discussion is a *good* thing :-)
Where were you when they formed the map Brain Trust? :-)

I'd rather the Map was actually done and out there than still be arguing minutae and it does look the business after all.

Nick

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 12:37 PM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Lemming:

Where were you when they formed the map Brain Trust? :-)



A good question. My first thought when looking at it was "Oh damn, Why was I not consulted?" The answer is: Because I was sitting in cold-ass Indiana and not sunny-warm LA with Whedon and Company. Grr. Arg.

I regard Joss Whedon, grouped with Neil Gaiman and Frank Herbert, to be the greatest storytellers of this age. Honestly, I'd be honored to consult my knowledge out for free. Consider Tycho at Penny Arcade:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/2/20/

On that note the call would come to my phone and go something like this:

RING RING
Me: "Yes Mr. Whedon?"
Joss: "What do you know about astronomy?"
Me: "I know everything."
Joss: "When can you be in LA to consult?"
Me: "Immediately."
END OF CALL

Yea sure, that's a pathetic fantasy. Hope everyone got a giggle.




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Thursday, December 4, 2008 7:13 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


I got a look at the map this evening at the Raleigh "Cool Colony Classics" screening.

OMJoss! It's so good I have to go get one as a Christmas present to myself.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:37 PM

OVERABUNDANCE


ncbrowncoat, I noticed on your site that Sci-Fi is showing Serenity on Jan. 3 at 9PM. Sounds like a perfect time to get some Browncoats together or better yet recruit some new ones. I seriously considered driving to Raleigh to see the movie but I'm 8 hours away! Hope you guys had a great time.

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 9:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Shiny news! While ordering my maps via phone, I heard that QMX has been busy keeping up with all the orders. They've had hundreds of maps shipped out. Apparently more than they had anticipated.

Pretty spry for a *off-the-air* show.

I'm hoping Joss got a courtesy copy, or I'd buy one for him before 20 Dec.

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Thursday, December 4, 2008 11:58 PM

LEMMING


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:

Originally posted by Lemming:

Where were you when they formed the map Brain Trust? :-)



A good question. My first thought when looking at it was "Oh damn, Why was I not consulted?" The answer is: Because I was sitting in cold-ass Indiana and not sunny-warm LA with Whedon and Company. Grr. Arg.

I regard Joss Whedon, grouped with Neil Gaiman and Frank Herbert, to be the greatest storytellers of this age. Honestly, I'd be honored to consult my knowledge out for free. Consider Tycho at Penny Arcade:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/2/20/

On that note the call would come to my phone and go something like this:

RING RING
Me: "Yes Mr. Whedon?"
Joss: "What do you know about astronomy?"
Me: "I know everything."
Joss: "When can you be in LA to consult?"
Me: "Immediately."
END OF CALL

Yea sure, that's a pathetic fantasy. Hope everyone got a giggle.





Well, nobody was actually sitting down with Joss and going through this. His involvement is as the creator of Firefly and Serenity and having approved the original maps designed by Geoff Mandell as used in the film (some of which were not shown on screen, but which QMX had access to, seeing as Geoff was working on this) I have no idea if he has actually even seen the map, though Mutant Enemy gave it their blessing.

Lets be clear. Nobody on the Brain Trust was paid for their time or expertise. It was purely a consultation group composed of folk from QMX, The Signal and several other fans and associates who were invited on the basis of displayed Verse knowledge, attention to detail and because basically, we were asked. No doubt there are many many other fans out there with knowledge that could have been useful, but in doing the research for what would become a commercial product (albeit with fans desires firmly in mind) you can't have an unlimited size team. I was honoured to have been asked and glad that I could contribute in some small way.

QMX didn't have to listen to us. They could have just gone to Geoff and said "knock your self out" But they don't work that way. They are Browncoats too, they listen and they make stuff because they want to make it, they want to see those products made real and they want to do the absolute best job that they can within the timeframe and bugetary limits of being a commercial company who need to make enough money to continue doing what they do. And don't forget, this activity is a revenue stream (small, but real) for the licence holders. That means Serenity is still making money. Studios notice this sort of thing if it goes on long enough. At some point in the future, maybe, just maybe someone with a bit of vision will look at this and think "hey, maybe we should have another go at this". Stranger things have happened. And while keeping the fandom alive and enthusiastic has value in it's own right, it's also what may ultimately achieve the impossible....again.

Nick

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Friday, December 5, 2008 11:01 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Lemming:

Lets be clear. Nobody on the Brain Trust was paid for their time or expertise. It was purely a consultation group composed of folk from QMX, The Signal and several other fans and associates who were invited on the basis of displayed Verse knowledge, attention to detail and because basically, we were asked. No doubt there are many many other fans out there with knowledge that could have been useful, but in doing the research for what would become a commercial product (albeit with fans desires firmly in mind) you can't have an unlimited size team.


Yea man, I understand. And like you, I'd have consulted for free on the basis of a love for the 'verse and I wouldn't care how much a studio made on it.

So this will be the 'verse. OK then. If Joss says the sun is blue...I guess it's blue regardless of the physics for blue stars. However, I did think of a techno-babble way to explain the presense of a mid-mass blue star. Claim it to be a stellar anomolity with an abnormal metallicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallicity

In this ficton, Blue Sun contains elements in a concentration never before seen that makes the fusion shift blue. It's protostar formation occured apart from White Sun and White sun "captured" it during stellar drift. I believe this was the intent. Keep in mind also, that I'm totally...absoutely...100%...making up a "blue" shifted metallicity. There is no basis for this in fact. But this is fiction right? So what the hell.

As far as the non-night on planets...I guess you can play around with the inverse-square law of light:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_square_law

And claim a distance from White sun that makes it shine with the intensity of the moon. White Sun's energy output makes this very hard. Did you guys specify distances on the map? Like does it reference AU distance units or (god forbid) miles? If not, that is a good thing. It leaves room for some calculations to position stars far enough away from other stars to lessen light magnitudes while adressing the need for gravitional strength to promote a White Sun orbit.

And hey, if there is another brain trust forming in the future, I'd love to consult. The things that I ponder about are:
-verse structure
-Craft Technology (fusion vs fission vs chemical)
-Independant army military structure (I have a military background)
-Unification war politics (I'm an ardent libertarian)
-Interplanetary communications
-The nature of the Blue Sun Corp (I have a detailed blog entry)



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Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by QMxAndy:
BSCM -

Okay, so I think this might make you even happier: There is an extensive white paper on the scientific background of the Verse that one of our researchers prepared so that the designer could make sure the graphics were as accurate as possible. We're prepping it for eventual release and I think it'll answer a lot of your questions. However, we probably won't be able to release it for at least a few more weeks.

Meanwhile, here's what it has to say about the stellar classes of the five primaries:

White Sun – Class A0
Georgia – Class G0
Red Sun – Class G5
Kalidasa – Class F5
Blue Sun – Class F0

What do you think?






When will this white paper be available?

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Monday, May 4, 2009 12:17 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


BTW, the answer to my question is the White Paper release date was Feb '09.

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