GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

BDM Has More To Offer - Observations

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 14:48
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Friday, November 28, 2008 6:30 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


This may have been discussed in other threads but here it goes:

I was watching the BDM last night for obscure clues from Joss through his characters as to what we may expect in the BDS and beyond.

I've noticed that Joss tends to give you clues through the character dialogue. For instance when Kaylee says she's gonna live after Simon expresses his love for her. And she does.

Shepperd Book tells Mal to believe in River. This started, at least that I noticed, in OiS when he follows River's plan. But in the BDM he believes that she's a person whole and real, and not just a weapon. River connects and identifies with the Captain thoroughly. Both he and Jayne are perhaps the easiest to read, for different reasons of course.

Thats why she didn't shoot him in the Maidenhead. She knew he wouldn't. But here's something I noticed last night as I watched for the umpteenth time.
River cannot read Simon all the time. In the BDM River says to Simon she couldn't tell if he was going to make her sleep.

I also get the feeling that River's dream sequences did not end at Maidenhead. Somehow I think that Joss had her dream straight through from there until the end. Just a theory based strictly on instinct.



In earnest Mal, Why did you let her back onto the boat?

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Friday, November 28, 2008 9:23 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
This may have been discussed in other threads but here it goes:

I was watching the BDM last night for obscure clues from Joss through his characters as to what we may expect in the BDS and beyond.

I've noticed that Joss tends to give you clues through the character dialogue. For instance when Kaylee says she's gonna live after Simon expresses his love for her. And she does.

Shepperd Book tells Mal to believe in River. This started, at least that I noticed, in OiS when he follows River's plan. But in the BDM he believes that she's a person whole and real, and not just a weapon. River connects and identifies with the Captain thoroughly. Both he and Jayne are perhaps the easiest to read, for different reasons of course.

Thats why she didn't shoot him in the Maidenhead. She knew he wouldn't. But here's something I noticed last night as I watched for the umpteenth time.
River cannot read Simon all the time. In the BDM River says to Simon she couldn't tell if he was going to make her sleep.

I also get the feeling that River's dream sequences did not end at Maidenhead. Somehow I think that Joss had her dream straight through from there until the end. Just a theory based strictly on instinct.



In earnest Mal, Why did you let her back onto the boat?



I don't agree with all of that.
In Maidenhead, why would she aim the gun at Mal if she knew he wouldn't shoot? She didn't KNOW, she only read his mind, and he had not yet decided. Had he decided to shoot, she would have shot first. He also knew she could read his mind, and that he would be dead if he decided to shoot her. Jayne did not intend to kill her, just diable her, and she did not kill Jayne.

River did not have a dream sequence at Maidenhead. She was subliminally triggered to execute commands imbedded in her subconscious, which was a main part of the story line.

Joss clearly stated in commentary that River is clear as soon as she vomits on Miranda, and she repeats "I'm fine" to Simon. Even if she is in a dream to that point, she is in reality after that.

She only cannot read Simon when he is about to execute safe words. As a required portion of her subliminal programming, she would be disabled from reading anybody who was thinking those words/commands - otherwise the programmers never would have been able to speak safewords to a psychic. She read him at all other times, when she wasn't distracted by other problems.

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:41 AM

FREEBROWNCOAT


Interesting observations.

IN the Maidenhead River was surely distracted enough to not be ablke to read Simon's intent. She had just beaten up the whole bar, and the one man she could trust, Mal, was holding a gun on her. She couldn't shoot because she knew he wouldn't.

It is interesting that the one person, Simon, whom she's closest to emotionally, seems to be harder to read. But the one time she cannot read him, without the above mentioned distraction, was when she didn't know if he was going to make her sleep. Only one incident , at least the only one that comes to mind.

That Kaylee says she's gonna live, have to agree with your concept.

Joss does drop clues in his writing. Well, he didn't give a hint about Wash getting harpooned, but with River he does. Perhaps he thinks we believe in the psychic link, that it is the only characterization that allows for prediction.

What are the other hints you have noticed. I just love analysing The Joss in differing lights.



MAL
Or near enough. Am I the only one
thinking along those lines?

BOOK
No.

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 11:57 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


"I am a leaf on the wind" was a big fat clue to the end of Wash for me anyway, as soon as he said it the first time I knew he was not long for the world.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain




“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:12 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


Same here, but I didn't see Book dying until it happened.

I also just watched "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" after many, many years. It could have also been the "Mal and Zoe Rob Trains and Banks" .

I also noticed that the Trading Post vault scene is almost the same as when Butch and Sundance Kid (one of the best movies ever) are robbing the train and the guard just won't let them in the car with the safe.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Monday, December 1, 2008 5:06 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:

Joss does drop clues in his writing. Well, he didn't give a hint about Wash getting harpooned,

When Wash said "Hello?" all alone on the bridge after the barn swallow- that was a hint IMO, and on Miranda after Jayne says the planet's dead for no reason the camera ends on Wash, again alone in the shot. We should have been subliminally prepared for it...*snif*


The observant Chrisisall

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Saturday, December 6, 2008 8:40 PM

MRSUNIVERSE832


Quote:

Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:
Interesting observations.

IN the Maidenhead River was surely distracted enough to not be ablke to read Simon's intent. She had just beaten up the whole bar, and the one man she could trust, Mal, was holding a gun on her. She couldn't shoot because she knew he wouldn't.

It is interesting that the one person, Simon, whom she's closest to emotionally, seems to be harder to read. But the one time she cannot read him, without the above mentioned distraction, was when she didn't know if he was going to make her sleep. Only one incident , at least the only one that comes to mind.

That Kaylee says she's gonna live, have to agree with your concept.

Joss does drop clues in his writing. Well, he didn't give a hint about Wash getting harpooned, but with River he does. Perhaps he thinks we believe in the psychic link, that it is the only characterization that allows for prediction.

What are the other hints you have noticed. I just love analysing The Joss in differing lights.



MAL
Or near enough. Am I the only one
thinking along those lines?

BOOK
No.



As far as Wash's death is concerned, one could say that the clue could have been(if it had been released before the BDM) in Those Left Behind.

WASH: Some of these ships are in better shape than ours, even.

MAL: Have some respect.....you're among the dead.

Mal, of course means it in the immediate sense, what with the dead bodies and such.....but after seeing the BDM, one also already knows that in the movie, Wash will literally be among the dead.

You make some interesting points. THe clues, of course, are thanks to very good foreshadowing skills on Joss and his crew's part.

Mrs. Universe

MR. UNIVERSE----> <----MRS. UNIVERSE

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Sunday, December 7, 2008 6:21 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Saw the BDM Thursday night in Raleigh on the big screen. Did anyone notice the cartoon dinos on Mr. Universe's screens?

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Monday, December 8, 2008 11:26 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


You make a good point about River's actions in the Maidenhead and how she got better on Miranda. I was so busy looking for any sliver of hope that
Wash and Book are not dead.

I did notice that River "gets better" after throwing up when she tells Simon "I'm fine."
What I love about this film is that nothing is as it seems and you need to pay attention to everything to keep pace.

Thanks for the clarification.

Tawabawho?

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 12:41 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
You make a good point about River's actions in the Maidenhead and how she got better on Miranda. I was so busy looking for any sliver of hope that
Wash and Book are not dead.

I did notice that River "gets better" after throwing up when she tells Simon "I'm fine."
What I love about this film is that nothing is as it seems and you need to pay attention to everything to keep pace.

Thanks for the clarification.

Tawabawho?



You are welcome. There is more discussion of the Maidenhead scene at this thread:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=33222

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 2:26 AM

RIVERLOVE


The more times I watch Serenity the more times I get mad at Joss for killing off Wash & Book. Wash's death especially, was totally un-necessary to the story. It was just a cruel manoeuver by Joss to emote something from his fan base. It means nothing to those watching the BDM who had not seen Firefly, so why do it?

Also, I don't understand the animosity between Mal and Simon in the movie. Even in the movie Simon & River had been on the ship for 8 months. Like in the series, one would expect that after 8 months together they would have had a friendlier relationship than the adversarial hatred they demonstated for eachother in the movie. And Kaylee's little whine about Simon is silly too. Hey girl, you had 8 months! 8 months alone, together on a ship. Don't blame anyone but yourself if he didn't take notice.
Finally, do you think River watched the entire "act" between Kaylee & Simon, or did she go away once things got, well, sweaty?

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Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Why animosity between Mal and Simon?
Simon forfeited his entire LIFE to keep River away from Alliance snoops. Mal decides, without consulting Simon, to take River where the Alliance can find her. Simon has, in accordance with previous agreement, been serving as ship medic/doc as trade for passage for he and River.
Simon was right to hide River, as proven in Maidenhead - and Mal was wrong.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:34 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Why animosity between Mal and Simon?
Simon forfeited his entire LIFE to keep River away from Alliance snoops. Mal decides, without consulting Simon, to take River where the Alliance can find her. Simon has, in accordance with previous agreement, been serving as ship medic/doc as trade for passage for he and River.
Simon was right to hide River, as proven in Maidenhead - and Mal was wrong.


Well, if Mal hadn't taken River along on the vault job on Lilac they'd all be dead from the Reavers. River sensed they were coming, while somehow Wash in the ship was unable to detect the Reavers arrival. Look, I'm not wanting to say anything against the BDM, but just between us Browncoats, the BDH's were not as fun and nice as they were in the tv series.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:25 AM

HOPERULES


I have to agree with Riverlove. There was something off about the behavior of some of the characters in the movie, specifically Simon, Kaylee, and Jayne. With Simon and Jayne, it is like all the events and changes they went through in the series never happened. And Kaylee was kind of like someone else all together.

As for Mal asking River to help out on a job,it seems reasonable to me. The crew including Simon and River were very desperate for the money they need to keep flying and hiding. If River could help give them a higher chance of success and less chance of injury of to either the crew or the town folk, of course she should go along. It is not like the rest of the crew had not put themselves at significant risk to protect the Tams.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:40 AM

PLATONIST


Desperate times, breeds desperate actions, yes, but that doesn't make it morally right, and some people will object on that account, hence the animosity between Mal and Simon, which I don't understand why fans still don't get. What is Simon suppose to do? Should he let Mal take River without even so much as an objection? He would appear weak in the eyes of the viewers and his sacrifice marginalized. He cares about his SISTER. Mal cares about SERENITY and has to do what he thinks is right for his crew. Neither one is right or wrong, just desperate.

Their animosity made for great characterizations in the BDM and a more realistic portrayal of life on the rim. And I never had much respect for Kaylee until the movie, too much crying and lamenting over Simon. One of my favorite parts is when she stands up to Mal, finally some backbone. Yay, Kaylee!

Because this issue has been brought up before, it is somewhat being addressed in the comic series. The comic books are filling in between OiS and the BDM. If you read those, you'll start to see where some of the Simon and Mal animosity comes from. There are a few subplots in there, which Joss didn't get to chance to develop earlier because the show was canceled. And the on-line one shows that Lilac is not the first time Mal uses River to protect his interests.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:27 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Hoperules:
I have to agree with Riverlove.


You may want to re-consider that statement. The rare few who have ever agreed with me on anything here have all mysteriously disappeared from the threads. Thanks, but watch your back!

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:41 AM

HOPERULES


But in fact aren't Mal's interest and Simon's interests paralell. Mal wants to keep flying and avoid the Alliance. While the flying part may not be important to Simon per say, given the current situation, he needs Serenity and her crew to get food and fuel in order to achieve his primary goal - keep River away from the Alliance. While she is in danger on a job, it is relative small when compared to that of her capture by the Alliance.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:57 AM

HOPERULES


Don't worry. I'm not going anywhere. You happened to hit on a point about the BDM that really bugs me. It is nice know someone who see it the way I do.

I don't post often, so if you don't see much from me I have not vanished. I'm just quiet.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:34 AM

PLATONIST


Simon wants to keep River safe on all accounts, and using her for crime wasn't part of their original agreement (see the pilot). Simon comes on as the medic. River doesn't have a role until Mal recognizes her usefulness. And, she COULD have been discovered in the trading station, but Zoe blows out the cams upon entering.

Simon thought she would be safe as long as she stayed out of Mal's way on the ship and didn't do anything crazy. It's Mal that changes the parameters because times are getting desperate, partly because of the Tams, so that becomes an issue between them.

Simon wants to protect River just as Mal wanted to protect Inara in the The Train Job and the best way to do that is to stay hidden on the ship. Simon needs to understand that Serenity is all Mal has left and he needs to keep flying because he is essentially miserable in his role as the outlaw lonesome Captain, but he thinks he can’t do anything else. I guess what really bothers me is that Mal can't see that because he's become so callous towards everything, including the Tams. It's sad, but a brilliant portrayal of the both of them.

And, we need more of the verse before and after the BDM to see how these characters will eventually resolve their conflicts.

I only logged on to comment on a fic, but I can’t resist discussing this movie, back to work I go…

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:01 PM

HOPERULES


Plausible. But isn't Serenity all Simon and River have too when you get down to it. I find it strange that Simon acts like Mal has no concern for River's safety. Just by having the Tams on the ship, Mal is putting himself and the entire crew at risk. Mal definitely makes his own life more difficult when he accepts Simon and River as members of the crew. In the series, Mal always returns for the Tams even when he does not have to. Mal and Simon seem to develop a certain amount of respect for each other. They may have even started to like each other, at least a little bit. In the movie, its like all the experience Simon had with Mal is of no consequence to Simon. It does not make sense to me. The attempts to fill in the blanks after the fact in comic books just feel a bit hollow to me.

My guess is that a lot of the changes come from the difference between making a movie and a TV series and the need to make the story appeal to a new audience.

P.S. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:48 PM

SOMAHOLIDAY


I have to agree with you, HopeRules. When I saw the movie, I didn't know anything about the movie or the show (I didn't even know firefly existed). I just saw a preview for the movie and it looked cool. After that, I was hooked and found out about Firefly. The point is, for people like me it would have made no sense if Simon HADN'T reacted the way he did in the BDM because the only info we had was that he gave everything up to protect his sister. At that point, I knew nothing about what Simon and Mal had been through together, and I would've been confused as hell if Joss had tried to refer to that (more confused than I already was about the Chinese, the war, and a bunch of other stuff that gets explained in Firefly).

I think what Joss was trying to do was satisfy Firefly fans by providing some sort of closure and an awesome movie AND not leave new viewers completely in the dark, and let them enjoy the awesome movie. Some little inconsistencies are the price for that goal, but I think everyone involved did a great job.

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