GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

space pistol or plain pistol?

POSTED BY: PALADIN
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:59
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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 5:50 AM

PALADIN


Has anyone noticed that the sound efects used for the crew's guns changes during the series? Beginning with "Serenity" and ending with "Shindig" gunfire sounds like a normal gun. I noticed that, beginning with "Safe" the guns sound more like lasers. Anyone have any thoughts/opinions??

If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of Hell, a level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:33 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I noticed that different guns sounded differently. Mal's gun sounded a bit odd when it fired, almost like a mechanical or sci fi machine type of sound. Some of the guns sounded like normal guns now.

Not sure if that was intentional or not.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:48 AM

ARAWAEN


Given the wide range of 'tech levels' (using an rpg term) represented by the appearance of the various guns, I always assumed that each was as 'hi-tech' as it could be given the design.

For example a sword would be made with the best steel available, even if the design was from an era that used iron for its blades.

We didn't see anybody using black powder even though one pistol looked like it was civil war era, so the bullet technology was followed a similar pattern.

My rationalization for the 'futuristic' sounds was that it represented these hi-tech bullets, cause I wasn't see any 'little bolts of light'

Arawaen


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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:51 AM

GORRAMREAVERS


I think Mal's gun is a normal gun except the revolver part is futuristic. Same as Jayne's shotgun. Sounds normal from far but when you hear it up close, the loading device in the gun sounds futuristic.

But...that might be just what I hear. I embellish sometimes to explain things to myself.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:41 AM

GHOULMAN


... seems ta me... just a recon ya understan'... dat der BULLETS are what is, what-de-ya-call... advanced. Why do people always assume it should be the guns that are advanced?

THINK!

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:23 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I am still kind of unsure of the advanced rounds theory. In a 'verse where the worlds and people out on the Rim are technologically behind the Core worlds, it seems that advanced or smart rounds would be prohibitively expensive and hard to come by.

Perhaps the rounds themselves are different, say the charge in the shell is not something we are familiar with and perhaps it is that difference that makes the odd sound.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:05 AM

HERO


I always assumed the unusual sound was the guns using compressed gases rather then gunpowder.

H

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:12 AM

ZEKE023


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I always assumed the unusual sound was the guns using compressed gases rather then gunpowder.

H



That's an awesome idea!

but more than likely - if that were true, Vira would have been able to fire without Atmo. :(

however - that's still neat. Maybe low rate of fire weapons do use gases rather than powder!

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:33 AM

HERO


Yeah, I thought about that. Maybe some use gunpowder and some use gas. We know some use sound and some use light. Maybe the future is all about variety.

H

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:53 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I wonder if any of them are modeled after the new "electric" gun that man was trying to develop for the military. I used to have a link to his website, but can't seem to find it now.

Anyone read about this electric gun, that uses electrical charges to fire rounds?

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:09 AM

SAINT JAYNE


Vera didn't make fancy high-tech noises, did it? Perhaps Jayne had to explain that Vera need Oxygen to fire because he knew the captain used a compressed gas gun.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:11 AM

EMBASSY


Vera would have been able to fire without atmo in any case. The tech guys got this one wrong. Gunpowder does not require air; it contains both fuel and oxidizer. Note that a sealed cartridge would have no way to admit air to the propellants in any case.

That doesn't mean that Vera's mechanisms would operate properly in vacuum, of course. But the first shot, at least, would go right down the barrel.

As for compressed gas weapons, that's an interesting idea. Many firearms already use tapped-off combustion gases to operate the action or to cushion recoil.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:33 AM

MOMAW


>> Anyone read about this electric gun, that uses electrical charges to fire rounds? <<

http://www.metalstorm.com/



Though if watch their live-fire video clip, it doesn't sound any different. Not "sci-fi" at all.

I've always wondered exactly what happens with muzzle velocity. The first bullet in the barrel has much less room to accelerated before it leaves, while the last bullet has a lot more barrel, hence it should be exitting faster. So do the bullets "cluster" on their way to the target as the slower first rounds are overtaken? Or do they have a variable charge, more in front.

Hmmm.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 9:56 AM

SPACEANGLER


Electric gun. Cool.

I only noticed the different sound from "War Stories." When River kills the three men in the cargo bay, the gun makes a lazer sound. But i've never noticed the guns making different noises on a planet. Maybe the atmosphere of a ship in deep space distorts the sound of the bullet, like firing a gun into pudding. Mmm...pudding...

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:23 AM

MOMAW


That could be. I'd imagine that ship-board atmosphere has probably got fairly low oxygen, lots of nitrogren, and ultra-low humidity.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:47 AM

LTNOWIS


Maybe some of them use special bullets, which are made by a technique not yet invented, make laserish sounds, and need air to fire, but are slightly cheaper? We could go on speculating forever. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that homemade gunpowder would need air to fire.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:08 PM

MOMAW


>> Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that homemade gunpowder would need air to fire. <<

According to my halfassed attempt at research, you can make a simple form of black powder, mixing these ingredients by weight:

75% potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate
15% charcoal or sugar
10% sulfer

(please note that this for educational purposes only, I DO NOT recommend anybody try it; the tiniest spark, or a jolt of static, can set gunpowder off)

Potassium nitrate (KN03) and sodium nitrate (NaN03) both have 3 oxygens each. I'm GUESSING that they would burn (explode) without air provided that you can keep it all contained.

The crew of Serenity does not homebrew ammunition though. In 'The Message', Jayne comes back with boxes o' bullets. At the rate they go through the stuff, it's got to be mass produced :bigsmile:

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Friday, February 6, 2004 2:33 AM

LOADANDMAKEREADY


Quote:


75% potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate
15% charcoal or sugar
10% sulfer

(please note that this for educational purposes only, I DO NOT recommend anybody try it; the tiniest spark, or a jolt of static, can set gunpowder off)



IIRC, the most common recipe for commercial black powder is;
50% Charcoal
25% Sulfur
25% Potassium Nitrate

The ingredients for smokeless powder vary.

Black powder is an explosive while smokeless powder is an excellerant.

The only thing the two have in common is that the smaller the grain size -- the faster the rate of combustion.

Neither requires external oxygen -- or external atmosphere for that matter. They both burn in an enclosed space, ie. the chamber/barrel. They will even fire under water (well, cartridges will anyway.)

As for the sounds, whoever is doing the mixing can put whatever sounds on the tape they wish. Have any of you noticed that the sound of Mal's gun "cocking" is exactly like the sound of a single lens reflex camera with automatic film advance? They could have made it sound like a rooster crowing if they wished.

As far as Jayne's "Vera" is concerned, not being able to fire with atmosphere has no technological foundation. It's just something that was added to make it sound "futuristic."

The only firearm that sounded even remotely real was the bolt action rifle Jayne used for sniping the bad guys in Serenity part two.

If you slo-motion through the scene where Zoe is lying on her back and lifts her cut down Winchester '92 to fire at the departing bad guy, you will notice that the gun "fires" before the hammer drops. It also makes Zoe a "back shooter" ...

Loadandmakeready

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Friday, February 6, 2004 2:56 AM

LOADANDMAKEREADY


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
... seems ta me... just a recon ya understan'... dat der BULLETS are what is, what-de-ya-call... advanced. Why do people always assume it should be the guns that are advanced?

THINK!



Yes, exactly, THINK!

Who is going to make twentyfifth century ammo for ninteenth century guns?
For the most part, you don't want to shoot twentieth century ammo in ninteenth century guns! The metals that were used for black powder cartridges just will not stand up to the pressures used in duplicate smokeless powder cartridges.

I have a Marlin Model '93, (made in 1897) that will stand up, but the barrel is stamped "Special Smokeless Steel." And I STILL won't use jacketed bullets in it -- they cause undue wear on the barrel, and won't obturate, and seal the barrel like cast lead will.

So forget the technology folks -- this is just entertainment.

loadandmakeready

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Friday, February 6, 2004 3:02 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by LoadAndMakeReady:
Quote:


As far as Jayne's "Vera" is concerned, not being able to fire with atmosphere has no technological foundation. It's just something that was added to make it sound "futuristic."



Vera might be using Jet-Propelled rather than conventional ammunition. The Callahan is supposed to be something special after all.

(That's how I wrote it in one of my Fan-Fics anyway because the not working in a vacuum thing bothered me too)



...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, February 6, 2004 3:45 AM

KINGOFKOINS


I think perhaps they were asked to change the sound so it would seem more "futuristic."

--------------------------------
It's sickening how comforting the privacy of the mind can be.
"Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense." - River
http://stripe.filetap.com

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Friday, February 6, 2004 4:02 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Momaw:
>> Anyone read about this electric gun, that uses electrical charges to fire rounds? <<

http://www.metalstorm.com/



Though if watch their live-fire video clip, it doesn't sound any different. Not "sci-fi" at all.

I've always wondered exactly what happens with muzzle velocity. The first bullet in the barrel has much less room to accelerated before it leaves, while the last bullet has a lot more barrel, hence it should be exitting faster. So do the bullets "cluster" on their way to the target as the slower first rounds are overtaken? Or do they have a variable charge, more in front.

Hmmm.



That's the one! Thanks for the link.

I know the electric gun does not make the noise that the guns in FF do, but I am wondering if the guns used in the show are based off of an electric principle. Could explain the electrical/sci fi sound when they fire. The propellant they use in the rounds in the FF future setting would most certainly be different and could account for the sound too.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, February 6, 2004 5:23 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by Embassy:
Vera would have been able to fire without atmo in any case. The tech guys got this one wrong. Gunpowder does not require air; it contains both fuel and oxidizer. Note that a sealed cartridge would have no way to admit air to the propellants in any case.

That doesn't mean that Vera's mechanisms would operate properly in vacuum, of course. But the first shot, at least, would go right down the barrel.

As for compressed gas weapons, that's an interesting idea. Many firearms already use tapped-off combustion gases to operate the action or to cushion recoil.



I doubt Vera would have fired correctly, even on the first round; keep in mind those sealed cartridges were designed to stay sealed in a one-atmosphere pressure environment. Put them in hard vacuum, and their internal pressure would likely blow the seal, which would at least throw accuracy out of true. The casing Jayne mentioned would most likely be designed more to maintain pressure, rather than provide oxygen for combustion.

Sidebar: The bullet's streamlining would be of no use in vacuum, which would reduce accuracy tremendously, even at short range. Amazing that they hit the target(s) at all. Jayne may not have the 'verse's most shiny IQ, but what he's good at, he's Gorram good at!

RocketJock

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Friday, February 6, 2004 6:59 AM

LOADANDMAKEREADY



Quote:


Vera might be using Jet-Propelled rather than conventional ammunition. The Callahan is supposed to be something special after all.

(That's how I wrote it in one of my Fan-Fics anyway because the not working in a vacuum thing bothered me too)



Although there is a "jet propelled" projectile in existence, (I forget the name of it at the moment) it still doesn't need atmosphere.
It is guided by the barrel, but continues to gain velocity after it leaves the barrel. It's also not very accurate.

Don't know what else to say except to reiterate that requiring atmosphere was mentioned to give it a "futuristic" quality.

Surely no one here believes that Joss is an advanced physicist? He is a visual story teller! And an obviously good one -- or we wouldn't be here.

Vera is nothing more, less, or other, than a product of Josses imagination.

If it were otherwise, Zoe wouldn't be carrying that silly sawed off Winchester.

loadandmakeready




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Friday, February 6, 2004 7:58 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by LoadAndMakeReady:

Although there is a "jet propelled" projectile in existence, (I forget the name of it at the moment) it still doesn't need atmosphere.

It is guided by the barrel, but continues to gain velocity after it leaves the barrel. It's also not very accurate.



Just because this is true of a late 20th/Early 21st Century design doesn't mean it would be true of a 26th Century one

There are already large rifle calibre rounds that can be steered slightly in flight and Vera is supposed to be an "Auto-Lock"

I'm not arguing that this is what Joss had in mind but for the sake of consistancy why not think it was?

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Friday, February 6, 2004 8:15 AM

EMBASSY


Well, I'm not sure I agree with you on this, Rocketjock. I have pulled bullets from cartridges in the past, and it takes a fair bit more than 1 atm of pressure to do so. The crimping process crunches the brass down pretty tightly against the bullet. Consider that a standard .223 caliber round, with one atmosphere of pressure behind it, sees a force of under 0.6 pounds. You could obviously pluck bullets from the brass with your fingers if that was all it took to dislodge them.

Also, the stability of a bullet comes from the rifling, which is all mechanical. If anything, the lack of air would make the weapon more accurate, at least for the first shot (ignoring the "cold barrel" effect or the "first shot orphan" effect). I'm pretty sure the action would seize up unless Vera were very specially designed.

None of this affects the storytelling, though. Great storytelling. Yay.

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Friday, February 6, 2004 10:11 AM

MOMAW


Actually I'm having second thoughts on "atmosphere to fire". Space is cold, DAMN cold. If you cool a barrel to near-absolute temperatures, then try and fire a bullet through it,

1) The barrel ID will have shrunk very slightly. Will the bullet still fit?

and

2) Ever poured hot water into a cold mug and had it crack? Or seen somebody stick a banana in a canister of liquid nitrogren, then shattered it? Ok, so what happens if you've got a near-absolute barrel, and you pressure it suddenly with hot propellant gases.

It may be that the cartridge itself will detonate without atmosphere, but the REST of the gun may need atmosphere (and the heat/insulating qualities that atmosphere implies) to function mechanically.

That and if you take an object from a warm place with moisture to a frigid place without moisture, it frosts. I can't imagine that any gun will like having frost in its workings.

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Friday, February 6, 2004 8:59 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by Momaw:
Actually I'm having second thoughts on "atmosphere to fire". Space is cold, DAMN cold. If you cool a barrel to near-absolute temperatures, then try and fire a bullet through it,

1) The barrel ID will have shrunk very slightly. Will the bullet still fit?

and

2) Ever poured hot water into a cold mug and had it crack? Or seen somebody stick a banana in a canister of liquid nitrogren, then shattered it? Ok, so what happens if you've got a near-absolute barrel, and you pressure it suddenly with hot propellant gases.

It may be that the cartridge itself will detonate without atmosphere, but the REST of the gun may need atmosphere (and the heat/insulating qualities that atmosphere implies) to function mechanically.



Well, Momaw, Embassy very effectively demolished my specific theory of why Vera would be atmosphere dependent, so maybe I shouldn't criticize others, but I'm afraid your "space is cold" argument doesn't obtain either.

The trouble is, space isn't cold. Space isn't anything. It's vacuum. It has no temperature, it just insulates, like a thermos. Astronauts generally have to worry more about shedding excess metabolic waste heat than they have to worry about heating systems.

Having no metabolism, and far from any sun, Vera would gradually lose heat through radiation, maybe even reaching something near to absolute zero, but not soon enough to affect a short term project like shooting out the circuit breakers.

But, y'know, you can fire a pistol underwater too, but it's still not a recommended practice. It's reasonable to assume* that a gun designed for use in an earth-normal atmosphere would need some special protection to work properly in Hard Vee. If nothing else, the volatiles in seals and such would boil away rather rapidly, along with any lubricants. That would take only a matter of seconds, and might easily ruin the fine mechanisms of a sophisticated lady like Vera, even if she could theoretically operate caseless.

*Footquote: "When you ASSUME, you make an ASS of U and ME!" -- Felix Unger

RocketJock

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Friday, February 6, 2004 11:00 PM

LTNOWIS


Here's an idea nobody's considered: All guns in Firefly can fire in a vacuum, but they just don't realize it.
Edit: They being the crew, not the guns

On second thought, these people really know guns so that's doubtful.

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Monday, February 9, 2004 9:44 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by LoadAndMakeReady:
Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
... seems ta me... just a recon ya understan'... dat der BULLETS are what is, what-de-ya-call... advanced. Why do people always assume it should be the guns that are advanced?

THINK!



Yes, exactly, THINK!

Who is going to make twentyfifth century ammo for ninteenth century guns?
For the most part, you don't want to shoot twentieth century ammo in ninteenth century guns! The metals that were used for black powder cartridges just will not stand up to the pressures used in duplicate smokeless powder cartridges.

I have a Marlin Model '93, (made in 1897) that will stand up, but the barrel is stamped "Special Smokeless Steel." And I STILL won't use jacketed bullets in it -- they cause undue wear on the barrel, and won't obturate, and seal the barrel like cast lead will.

So forget the technology folks -- this is just entertainment.

loadandmakeready

Well... I know who to hire for my train job.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:59 PM

LOADANDMAKEREADY



Well... I know who to hire for my train job.


LOL! But I gotta know what the cargo is first!
loadandmakeready

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