GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Did the 'Companion' thing ever bug you in Firefly?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:08
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Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:59 PM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
You know... All we see is Inara give Fess a kiss and the next day Inara is cleaning up tea. I mean, it's assumed there was sex, maybe because we all expect it, but sex is never actually implied. Maybe we just all have really dirty minds. What if the tea ceremony took all night or they just stayed up talking about Fess's problems and his dad putting him down all the time? And the next morning, when Fess expresses his admiration for the Hero of Canton and how his dad's looking to string him up, Inara hatches a clever plan for Fess to defy his father, assert himself, and also help her.

Having sex with him would also contradict Inara telling Fess that being a virgin is nothing to be ashamed of, that it's just a state of being. Fess' problem wasn't that he was a virgin, and clearly Inara's reason for accepting him for a client was to help him with his problems. Sex necessary? Maybe not!



There's a whole post-coital scene you're forgetting. If Fess and Inara didn't have sex, they got naked, climbed into bed together and then Fess talks about something they did that he thought would make him feel different. ;)

Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Simon's too proper to really get a read on whether he thinks sex is important or not; obviously he's able to recognize that Mal as big brother might be dangerous if it looked like Kaylee had been taken advantage of, and might react the same way in regards to River. His reaction to Kaylee asking Inara about her appointments might be prudishness, and that's how Kaylee takes it, leading to the subsequent conversations about what's proper. But maybe he's just surprised to hear it from Kaylee, who can seem pretty innocent. At the very most, it could possibly be argued that Simon sees sex as something vulgar. But either way, it seems to me it's not something he really cares about, or maybe even thinks about much. Which again suggests that core worlders don't really see it as anything important.



I've got to disagree about Simon. I think he feels sex is VERY important. He knows Kaylee is willing, but he won't just sleep with her even though she's willing. He will not view her as recreation...and it frustrates Kaylee. It's interesting to see the juxtaposition of Fess/Inara and Kaylee/Simon in Jaynestown. I'm sure there's a whole essay worth of compare/contrast options...more than I'm willing to think about right now other than a cursory "Hrmm...intersting."

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:14 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, it's been a while. I admit I was mostly looking at the script for the episode here, which goes from Inara's "it's okay to be a virgin speech" and kiss to morning with the crew, then at some point back to Inara, who the script specifies is cleaning up their tea.

*double checks* Ah, hmm. Yep, that was added. Guess Joss had to put some sex in the episode somehow. :)

Still, it probably COULD have been accomplished without sex. With the added benefit of FURTHER pissing off the Magistrate.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:22 PM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, it's been a while. I admit I was mostly looking at the script for the episode here, which goes from Inara's "it's okay to be a virgin speech" and kiss to morning with the crew, then at some point back to Inara, who the script specifies is cleaning up their tea.

*double checks* Ah, hmm. Yep, that was added. Guess Joss had to put some sex in the episode somehow. :)

Still, it probably COULD have been accomplished without sex. With the added benefit of FURTHER pissing off the Magistrate.



No worries...I had to pull the DVDs out to be sure. :D

Inara could've taught Fess to be a man without the sex, but what she was contracted for was pretty specific and if she didn't fulfill that contract, well...that's a whole 'nother can of worms, yes?

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:45 PM

BYTEMITE


Wait now, are companions contracted for specific types of engagements, or does someone make an appointment and the companion and client settle on the exact nature of their engagement during the preliminaries? "It's a pleasure to see you, how have things been since we last spoke?" And other such companiony leading questions intended to get someone to unburden?

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:00 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Wait now, are companions contracted for specific types of engagements, or does someone make an appointment and the companion and client settle on the exact nature of their engagement during the preliminaries? "It's a pleasure to see you, how have things been since we last spoke?" And other such companiony leading questions intended to get someone to unburden?




It's possible. Inara turns down hanging-out offers with noobs to go to a ball with the dashing Sir Fussy-pants Wing in Shindig.

And I will now outright make the contention that her having sex with Fess is the rub in this episode. Other than ratings(and questions of her contract), could it possibly have been done the other way?
__

Going for a ride.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:58 AM

BYTEMITE


I think not only could she have accomplished the same goal, but she could have potentially done a better job. It kind of contradicted the virgin pep speech she gave, and a young man Fess' age could be easily confused.

Fess seemed like a nice kid. Shame his father pressured him into anything. In ten years he probably would have taken over as magistrate and been a much kinder and better boss, and then I'm sure he'd have no shortage of women looking to court him.

Maybe that whole "I choose you" thing Inara does would be enough to help him forget about the money, but I'm wondering if he would have had a bigger self-esteem boost if Inara had taken him to the Mudder's bar and coached him on his flirting game. But I think because of what's expected - culturally, for television, and maybe simply because of how most people would view Inara's job - we got a suggestive cuddle scene.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:44 AM

RUGBUG


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Wait now, are companions contracted for specific types of engagements, or does someone make an appointment and the companion and client settle on the exact nature of their engagement during the preliminaries? "It's a pleasure to see you, how have things been since we last spoke?" And other such companiony leading questions intended to get someone to unburden?



I'm not saying that the contract is always for sex. But it clearly was in the case of Fess Higgins. There's really no doubt. If Fess hadn't wanted to, then fine...but he didn't seem to mind.

I think the conversation about not feeling different was suppose to make us believe that the sex wasn't really the transformative factor for Fess. However, the message is muddied because it happened. And then there's Fess at the end, defying his father, sitting with his business front and center. His action, and the camera angle tell us he grew some balls, but we can't really determine what part of his time with Inara helped him do that.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, February 22, 2010 10:36 AM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by RugBug:

I think the conversation about not feeling different was suppose to make us believe that the sex wasn't really the transformative factor for Fess. However, the message is muddied because it happened. And then there's Fess at the end, defying his father, sitting with his business front and center. His action, and the camera angle tell us he grew some balls, but we can't really determine what part of his time with Inara helped him do that.



This is exactly my point. And here I thought a man's courage was in another part of his anatomy.

__

Going for a ride.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

And I will now outright make the contention that her having sex with Fess is the rub in this episode. Other than ratings(and questions of her contract), could it possibly have been done the other way?

Well there's this idea that a boy can turn into a man by losing his virginity. The episode tried to turn this cliche on its head but then ultimately had to use it - because how 'transformational' can a tea ceremony and a little bit of life-coaching be (in the space of one episode)? So we're left with Inara telling him he doesn't need to have sex to become a man, then having sex with him to prove it - and lo, him becoming a man.

I guess a quick and easy watershed moment was needed since Fess's 'transformation' needs to take place in just a single episode (to serve the ep's main storyline). I don't think this subplot was ever likely to be a satisfying study into Companionship. Which prompts me: Inara fans, what episode/scene in the series does sum up Inara and her Companioning, really well?

(Very sorry to those who would've said Jaynestown!)

Heads should roll

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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:55 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Inara fans, what episode/scene in the series does sum up Inara and her Companioning, really well?



The scene in the pilot where she lays her hand on the Shepherd's head, in a sort of absolution. That pretty much told me right there who and what Inara was.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 5:30 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Inara fans, what episode/scene in the series does sum up Inara and her Companioning, really well?



The scene in the pilot where she lays her hand on the Shepherd's head, in a sort of absolution. That pretty much told me right there who and what Inara was.




I think the answers you're going to get to this question are going to depend on what people think of Inara's function in the show.

That actually was the one scene where I went "Huh".
I mean, I knew what the writers were trying to do to the audience: "aaugh! gut reaction! totally zomg this preacher dude is like confessing to the prostitute, man! Totally wth?"

But I don't know what they were trying to do to the show by having that scene. I mean, Book has that bit and then he's all peachy the rest of the time. It just feels really out of place given the rest of his episode/show "arc" that we see, and Inara's also.

If it really was just to say about the characters to the audience (I apologize in advance) "we're not in Kansas any more", then I get it. But anything else baffles me.
__

Going for a ride.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 5:34 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I liked her in the pilot (I liked everything about the pilot).

It doesn't explain the Companioning though. That was a spontaneous moment, where she addressed the imminent need of a human being who had come to her. Not quite the same as her choosing clients and flying out to them to perform services, and then taking money.

That definitely was a good moment, but I don't think it's one that sums up Companioning - though maybe it sums up the person of Inara.

Heads should roll

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Monday, February 22, 2010 5:41 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


See, my whole thing with Inara was, when does the Companion end, and Inara begin, and vice versa? At that moment, Book recognized Inara as a person of status, respect, wisdom, etc, and he came to her for that. And I never found book all that preachy, and when he was, it was certainly never to Inara...he treated her with deference, and it always stuck me (and this is just my own reading) that that was due to her station, as a Companion...which is simultaneously also who she is (in addition to what). It's never explicitly spelled out WHY Companions are as highly regarded as they are, rather it's shown to us in a myriad different ways.

Quick add - In the commentary for the pilot, Joss mentions that when Simon goes up to Inara's shuttle, ostentatiosly for medical supplies, he is actually going up there to confess, about Kaylle and the trouble he felt he caused. And we see him do that repeatedly throughout the series, going to Inara to confess, or seek counsel or comfort. He doesn't open up like that to anyone else, not even Book to whom he's somewhat closed off, which wouldn't seem to make sense as he obviously has respect for Book's religion, and Book IS the preacher. But Simon grew up with Companions, and naturally gravitates to Inara to fulfill that role instead. So there's another example of her status as a Companion and what that might signify to people in the Core. It's obviously more than sex.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 5:56 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Right... But then they're forced to show the mechanics of Inara's profession occasionally - and it never quite lives up to its esteemed, honourable billing... The mechanics are dirty (I'm not talking in terms of sex...).

I better leave it there - I've hammered on about this too long already!

Heads should roll

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:01 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


What's dirty about them? Other than the occasional jerk she runs across, that is...

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:16 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Just that Inara's pure, noble moments you are mentioning are irrelevant to her job, and what she does for it. They're only relevant to her kind of revered, very classy status - she could be a noble queen, or ambassador, or highly evolved species of alien (I know, Joss wouldn't like that, I'm still working on the details though :) ) - and then you could still have this special role, and special *presence* on the ship. And in these cases it would be legitimate.

But specifically, what's dirty - I guess that she's taking money for what she does. That can never be *that* noble. Also I can only understand it as a charade (as I and others have described previously in the thread - though perhaps others see it differently). The fact that the main part of her job is bringing physical pleasure - let us say is morally neutral. Overall it's a little bit shady, and beneath the person and status of Inara that is put across (refined, classy, beautiful, noble, wise).

Heads should roll

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:33 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN




Ah, see, I think we are coming at cross angles here. You say her nobility is irrelevant to her job...I think it on the contrary that's a fundamental aspect of her work. For some reason you seem to think sex undermines all that...and that doesn't really make any sense unless you think there's something inherently dirty or vulgar about sex. We don't know that the main part of being a Companion is bringing *physical* pleasure either; rather, we are generally shown that the physical aspect augments the spiritual/psychological aspect. It supports it. Also, why would accepting money for her services make it a charade? Doctors and psychiatrists accept money. Soldiers get paid. So does the president. Priests and pastors typically receive stipends and gifts (some more than others). There's a point at which that can be corrupted, but it's not intrinsically so. So that doesn't really make much sense to me either.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:43 PM

BYTEMITE


I'm going to say that companioning in the series is actually better shown by Nandi then by Inara, the poor girl just has the most awful luck it seems like, and I do see Inara as a little bit naive about it all.

Of course, it seems like most everyone disagrees with me that it was Nandi who was companioning Mal, giving him a taste of what he wants and can't have as payment for him helping out her house. But the way I see it was Nandi really trying to help Mal work through his feelings for Inara and maybe try to get past them.

And she did a pretty good job, too, up to the point when Mal runs into Inara, but I think that's because Nandi really underestimated the depths of both their feelings.


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Monday, February 22, 2010 7:10 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Well, Nandi was certainly using wiles ;)

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:50 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Of course, it seems like most everyone disagrees with me that it was Nandi who was companioning Mal,

Actually I agree with you, and thanks - you've given me a breakthrough.

I think they were 'companioning' each other. Two people who for different reasons could use the comfort and shared a connection - it was mutual.

But here's my point, why call this 'companioning' at all? It was just regular, conventional, human intimacy: mutual, and no money changing hands. All right Nandi used some wiles to smooth the process but I don't think that makes it 'Companionship'.

What distinguishes Inara's Companionship is that it is one-sided - her satisfying the needs of a client, and getting paid for it. As someone else said, 'being paid to be personal'. And this is what makes it a charade in my opinion - no human relationship/interaction is really like that.

Actually there is one kind of human interaction that is genuinely one-sided, and that is charity. Seeing another human being in need and acting with compassion - as Inara did with Book.

So perhaps Inara could choose *some* clients on a charitable basis (folk like Fess who apparently could really benefit from her 'touch'?) - but I can't imagine her choosing all her clients that way, and in any case she is still charging money, so not quite charity...

No, as Joss says, he was playing with the old fashioned notion in the Western genre of the prostitue with the 'heart of gold'. I actually don't mind this notion, but I think Joss over-reached when he tried to make the whole *profession* 'golden'.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:50 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Oops, double

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:51 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Treble...

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:52 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quadruple... sorry guys!

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:12 AM

BYTEMITE


The reason I call it companioning is because I don't quite see it as mutual.

Inara, the next day, ASSUMES that Nandi for some reason needed comfort. But is that how Nandi strikes you, really? That she's very worried about Rance Burgess' threats? She strikes me more as just plain annoyed by it all, like Rance Burgess is an insignificant bug with delusions of grandeur, and the only reason she's taking it seriously at all is the threat to her girls (and boys).

It seems pretty obvious that Nandi seduced Mal. It even seems like from a few things she says that she was PLANNING on seducing him. So, why? If it's not that she needed anything, and Nandi strikes me as fairly independent spirited, why would she do that? Just took a fancy to him because of their similarities? Does she seem like the kind of person who can afford just taking a fancy to someone? Would that be something someone with her training would blindly jump into, seeing that she's AWARE that Inara is the other woman in the room?

Nah, I don't see it. So that leaves two other options. It could have been charity, her feeling sorry for Mal after seeing Inara reject him a couple times in front of her. But ultimately, what I see is Nandi not liking having any debts to anyone. Mal's being paid, but she can see his heart's not in the money, and he's not really getting anything out of helping. So she feels like she personally owes him something. So she uses her companioning abilities as payment. It's an exchange, just like what Inara does. Mal doesn't seem to realize it though.

So if one's okay, why isn't the other? Why's it okay for a guy to take a girl to a dinner and a movie (or give her a ruby necklace), and expect something in return? Isn't it the same thing? Mal decides to take that job because he's trying to help Inara and impress her and maybe THEN she'll want to be involved with him. He doesn't even think he has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding, but for the questing knight trying to win favour, that doesn't really matter to him (much). He'll do it anyway. Keep on fighting those dragons and slaying those windmills. The pursuit of love is far nobler, in his mind, and far more entertaining for us, than is the obtaining.

Unless you think there's another reason Mal was motivated to help?

In any case, what's the difference between sex obligated by money and sex by social obligation?

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:10 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

So she uses her companioning abilities as payment. It's an exchange, just like what Inara does. Mal doesn't seem to realize it though.



You don't see any kind of connection there, between the two characters? - "Lady, you are my kind of stupid.", "Malcolm Reynolds I've been waiting for you to kiss me since I showed you my guns...", etc.? What about the vulnerable: "I aint her."? Why would Nandi bring Inara up if she's just charitably trying to seduce Mal to help him *get over* Inara...??

Quote:

Does she seem like the kind of person who can afford just taking a fancy to someone?

That's the least romantic thing I've ever heard!

Quote:

Unless you think there's another reason Mal was motivated to help?

The whole connection thing, referred to above.

Quote:

In any case, what's the difference between sex obligated by money and sex by social obligation?

We can agree, neither one is romantic. But I don't think that's what we're dealing with here.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Does NANDI seem like a romantic? I'll grant you Mal is. Maybe. He felt a connection to Nandi.

I'm saying Nandi likely felt no more connection to Mal than she did one of her clients when she was a companion.

And yeah, the line about "since I showed you my guns" is what makes me think she'd planned the whole thing. It wasn't anticipation or Nandi looking forward to it (you'll notice she said nothing about HOPING he'd kiss her), it's that Mal's kinda stupid when it comes to taking a hint.

She brought up Inara to make sure he was okay with what they were doing. She knows he cares about Inara. She didn't want him fantasizing he was with Inara when she's trying to help him get over Inara. It's counter productive.

Who here expected Joss to show Mal imagining he's with Inara? I did. But he didn't. Aside from Nandi asking him, it seems like Mal successfully put Inara out of mind for a while. So my interpretation of that scene and the nuances is that was Nandi's intention all along.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:54 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:



You don't see any kind of connection there, between the two characters? - "Lady, you are my kind of stupid.", "Malcolm Reynolds I've been waiting for you to kiss me since I showed you my guns...", etc.? What about the vulnerable: "I aint her."? Why would Nandi bring Inara up if she's just charitably trying to seduce Mal to help him *get over* Inara...??

Heads should roll



This. Don't forget that Inara, when she announces her intention to leave, conflates Mal and Nandi--or at least their leadership qualities. She clearly sees the connection, too.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:05 PM

BYTEMITE


Nandi's a rough talking Madam on a Rim world... She also was once apparently a soft talking companion from the Core. The most rebellious thing she ever did was break a dulcimer.

She trucked out to the Rim and started playing a role that was expected of her, took on traits that she needed to survive. This, and Saffron, reflects what masterful actors and actresses companions can be. Who's the real Nandi? Who's the real Inara?

Like I said, Mal felt like he had a connection with Nandi. Clearly Mal and Inara have a connection. But did Nandi have a connection with Mal? Very hard to tell. My inclination is no. Up until the seduction scene, Nandi gives no real indication of being interested in Mal, even if Mal is somewhat interested in her.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:18 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
See, my whole thing with Inara was, when does the Companion end, and Inara begin, and vice versa? At that moment, Book recognized Inara as a person of status, respect, wisdom, etc, and he came to her for that. And I never found book all that preachy, and when he was, it was certainly never to Inara...he treated her with deference, and it always stuck me (and this is just my own reading) that that was due to her station, as a Companion...which is simultaneously also who she is (in addition to what). It's never explicitly spelled out WHY Companions are as highly regarded as they are, rather it's shown to us in a myriad different ways.

Quick add - In the commentary for the pilot, Joss mentions that when Simon goes up to Inara's shuttle, ostentatiosly for medical supplies, he is actually going up there to confess, about Kaylle and the trouble he felt he caused. And we see him do that repeatedly throughout the series, going to Inara to confess, or seek counsel or comfort. He doesn't open up like that to anyone else, not even Book to whom he's somewhat closed off, which wouldn't seem to make sense as he obviously has respect for Book's religion, and Book IS the preacher. But Simon grew up with Companions, and naturally gravitates to Inara to fulfill that role instead. So there's another example of her status as a Companion and what that might signify to people in the Core. It's obviously more than sex.




I said after that one scene Book was peachy, not preachy, fearthebunnyman. Meaning, it seemed like a weird blip in his arc.

And Simon, underneath all that shuai, appears to have a very practical Core-culture mind. At that point, with the big Kaylee mess, having "the Ambassador" in your corner might prevent you and yours getting thrown out the airlock...

__

Going for a ride.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:47 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

I said after that one scene Book was peachy, not preachy, fearthebunnyman. Meaning, it seemed like a weird blip in his arc.

And Simon, underneath all that shuai, appears to have a very practical Core-culture mind. At that point, with the big Kaylee mess, having "the Ambassador" in your corner might prevent you and yours getting thrown out the airlock...



whoah, settle down there, it was an honest mistake. But I would hardly describe Book as "peachy" throughout the rest of the series. He was clearly dealing with some of his own struggles.

also, I think Simon knew just fine that Inara's liking him or not would have shiat-all to do with the Captain's ultimate decisions. And Simon's approach seemed out of genuine remorse rather than an underhanded attempt to weasel his way into another *passenger's* good graces. Again, Joss implied as much in the commentary. And also again, it's an ongoing habit of Simon's to go to Inara - even when that habit created outright tension between him and Mal, as we see alluded to in Better Days.

Simon also doesn't care so much about *himself* getting thrown out of the airlock, so much as River. Which again, is probably why he wasn;t shy to forge a friendship with Inara, even knowing Mal might not like that.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:58 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


...And my last post came off way snarkier then I intended AnotherSky, but I'm too lazy to go back and reword it...

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:45 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Yeah, and apparently mine came off strong too.

Perhaps peachy was not the best word. I meant that Book has big internal struggles yes, (and maybe that talk led to others, we never saw them)but that this one seemed odd given the others.

Please don't think I mean Simon is a weasel. He's about the farthest of those on the ship from weasel.

BUT if she has this confessor-priestess-counselor like function though, why would he NOT go to her for succor and aid against the Mean Old Man of Space with ye old Airlock at his disposal?


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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:56 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Yeah, and apparently mine came off strong too.

Perhaps peachy was not the best word. I meant that Book has big internal struggles yes, (and maybe that talk led to others, we never saw them)but that this one seemed odd given the others.

Please don't think I mean Simon is a weasel. He's about the farthest of those on the ship from weasel.

BUT if she has this confessor-priestess-counselor like function though, why would he NOT go to her for succor and aid against the Mean Old Man of Space with ye old Airlock at his disposal?


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Problem with teh internets is tonal fluctuations get lost in the bytes ;)

I'll go ahead and concede with your Book argument for now, as it's been awhile since I've watched the DVD's, and shame on me I never spent as much time analyzing his character as I have some of the others. So your take may well be more accurate than mine.

And NOW I see where you are coming from with your last sentence...but I can counter that by pointing out that Simon witnessed the exchange between Mal, Inara, and Book at the beginning of the pilot, when Mal basically disrespected her in front of the new passengers for her "whoring". So Simon probably reasonably formed the impression at the time that Inara's opinion may not carry that much weight with the Captain. Mal also got pissed off at her trying to "tell him what to do" while Kaylee lay bleeding on the floor. So I don't know that Simon would have seen her as someone who would be a powerful advocate on his behalf, influence-on-the-ship-and-over-the-Captain-wise, at that time.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:13 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
I'm suprised no one as of yet has mentioned the geisha. When I watched the show for the first time, I immediately thought of Inara as a geisha with more spice (after having watched Memoirs of a Geisha).

In Wikipedia it states the following about the origins of a geisha:

Quote:

In early seventeenth-century Japan (long before the word geisha was ever used), the predecessor of the geisha, a combination of actress and prostitute, worked on the stages set in the driver[vague] river bed of the River Kamo in Kyoto. The line between actress and prostitute was then blurred. The women would preform erotic dances and skits for their audiences. This new type of performance was dubbed kabuku, meaning "to be wild and outrageous". They[who?] called her dances kabuki, which was the beginning of kabuki theater.[1]

Traditional Japanese views of sex were very relaxed. It was a society that embraced sexual delights and where men were not constrained to be faithful to their wives. In fact it was socially acceptable to be in love with one's wife, but only what was considered a "professional" woman.[vague] For sexual enjoyment and romantic attachment, men did not go to their wives, but to courtesans. In order to maintain this profession, the Japanese government created "pleasure quarters" where the courtesans could reside and work and men could go to relax and enjoy the entertainment.[1]

These pleasure quarters quickly became glamorous entertainment centers that offered far more that just sex. The highly accomplished courtesans of these districts entertained their clients by dancing, singing, and playing music. Some were even renowned poets and calligraphers. Gradually, they all became specialized and the new profession, purely of entertainment, arose. It was near the turn of the eighteenth century that the first entertainers of the pleasure quarters, called geisha, appeared. The very first geishas were men, entertaining customers waiting to see the most popular and gifted courtesans.[1]

Around 1760, women began to join men in the art of the geisha and very quickly outnumbered the men. The first woman to use the term "geisha" was an Edo prostitute named Kikuya and[vague] became a full-time entertainer. Soon, many women, whether they sold sex or not, began using the term geisha. Doing so was a way of acquiring respectability and proving that they were professionals.[dubious – discuss] The geisha who worked within the pleasure quarters were essentially imprisoned and strictly forbidden to sell sex in order to protect the business of the courtesans. Geisha who worked outside the pleasure quarters, however, could do as they pleased. Eventually, the gaudy courtesans began to fall out of fashion and the geisha were seen as the chic and desirable entertainers they are in modern Japan.



While I realize the geisha is Japanese and not Chinese, what in the world would have stopped Joss from utilizing some Japanese cultural tidbits to further the excitement of his (our) show? Absolutely nothing.

As for it bothering or not bothering me? Not in the least. Our society is going to change 360 degrees 10 times over before we reach the timeframe Firefly/Serentiy is in, and I like to think myself a progressive thinker.

My wife, on the other hand, does not and would not approve.




I've said my bit about geisha and heitara/haetara already(BTW, "Memoirs of a Geisha" is embellished to say the very least...and Hokusai help you if all you ever see is the movie, it guts the book even more).

But what all these concepts hinge on one concept which is the thing that Stegasaurus' wife might be objecting to:

that there is a separation between the women required to carry on your name and property (your wife) and the woman you want to have sexy fun with (your "INSERT personal entertainer of type and degree, from chatting to sex--heitara, courtesan, geisha, hostess, call girl, stripper, street hooker, whatever, HERE").

There are entire discourses going back to the Greeks about how to pick a wife that will have your babies and how to pick a woman to fool around with to entertain you on the side(or most of the time, as human nature and wealth has it).
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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:25 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Yeah, and apparently mine came off strong too.

Perhaps peachy was not the best word. I meant that Book has big internal struggles yes, (and maybe that talk led to others, we never saw them)but that this one seemed odd given the others.

Please don't think I mean Simon is a weasel. He's about the farthest of those on the ship from weasel.

BUT if she has this confessor-priestess-counselor like function though, why would he NOT go to her for succor and aid against the Mean Old Man of Space with ye old Airlock at his disposal?


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Problem with teh internets is tonal fluctuations get lost in the bytes ;)

I'll go ahead and concede with your Book argument for now, as it's been awhile since I've watched the DVD's, and shame on me I never spent as much time analyzing his character as I have some of the others. So your take may well be more accurate than mine.

And NOW I see where you are coming from with your last sentence...but I can counter that by pointing out that Simon witnessed the exchange between Mal, Inara, and Book at the beginning of the pilot, when Mal basically disrespected her in front of the new passengers for her "whoring". So Simon probably reasonably formed the impression at the time that Inara's opinion may not carry that much weight with the Captain. Mal also got pissed off at her trying to "tell him what to do" while Kaylee lay bleeding on the floor. So I don't know that Simon would have seen her as someone who would be a powerful advocate on his behalf, influence-on-the-ship-and-over-the-Captain-wise, at that time.




If you're out of time and options, you take the strongest, right? It could be that Simon didn't even have that in his head at all, it could be that he figured it was it for him and he wanted to at least feel ok about it. Or he could have wanted to see what a Companion's room looked like, supposing he hasn't seen one already.
And, supposing there is this facet to Inara's persona a protective quality, it's better than nothing.

Kinda like the fact that Book stands around (or at the end of a muzzle) in many terse gun situations and is never deliberately shot. How Inara can waltz in and take two suspects out of lockdown with no questions asked, with her person being used as the reason they should believe her story--her file is clean, but they even ask themselves "why the heck is she out here?". The reaction is like minor nobility.
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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

So Simon probably reasonably formed the impression at the time that Inara's opinion may not carry that much weight with the Captain.


Except the Simon in the shuttle thing happens shortly after the pow-wow in the galley, when Inara goes up to Mal and tells him that even if he just puts Simon and River off on Whitefall, they don't have the necessary experience to survive out on the Rim and it would be as good as killing them. She gives him an ultimatum, that if they go, she's leaving too.

Mal seems to have listened to her, up until finding Simon in the shuttle and threatening him (partially out of jealousy) and telling him to get ready for the airlock, because Kaylee's dead.

Of course, that was a big joke, and it turns out Mal does listen to Inara and he keeps Simon and River on. So, actually, I'm with Anothersky here, I think Simon can figure out subtext, and he knows Inara is a strong ally.

It's the same conclusion Book reaches after the "she's a whore" incident. It's pretty obvious there's more going on there than what's on the surface, which is why Book later goes to talk to Inara ("Why do you find him so fascinating?") and later, again, for that benediction. Mal and Inara bicker like an old married couple, it takes less than three seconds to figure out what's really going on there. It's even more obvious when talking to one of them person to person about the other.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:23 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Mal tells Inara at that point "Might be best" she DOES get off his ship, and then reiterates that she has not part of "this business" - i.e., the running of his ship. Again, nothing much pointing to Inara's supposed influence with Mal at that point. The situation btwn Mal and Inara at the beginning of the series could just as easily be read to a newcomer as an affair gone bad, which means their bickering could be leading up to a huge explosion btwn the two of them - I'm just arguing here from the context of it being the first ep, and therefore the first time the passengers are meeting these people who live on the ship. Hindsight's 20/20, but do we know for sure what it would have looked like to them right at that time?

I feel like this is starting to get away from Inara's companion thing here, though...we need to find a way to discuss her without bringing in Mal all the time

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:21 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Mal tells Inara at that point "Might be best" she DOES get off his ship, and then reiterates that she has not part of "this business"

The pilot episode was great...

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:36 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Mal tells Inara at that point "Might be best" she DOES get off his ship, and then reiterates that she has not part of "this business" - i.e., the running of his ship. Again, nothing much pointing to Inara's supposed influence with Mal at that point. The situation btwn Mal and Inara at the beginning of the series could just as easily be read to a newcomer as an affair gone bad, which means their bickering could be leading up to a huge explosion btwn the two of them - I'm just arguing here from the context of it being the first ep, and therefore the first time the passengers are meeting these people who live on the ship. Hindsight's 20/20, but do we know for sure what it would have looked like to them right at that time?



My whole point was about SIMON'S possible psychology in going to Inara, if it had indeed had anything to do with hanging on to her highfalutin apron strings against the captain.

WHETHER or not it would have kept him and River from being kicked off the ship is not my point.

As for Simon's intuition, he IS River's sibling. There isn't an extreme amount of (realistic) weight in that, but there's definitely some, particularly since he does play it like that, the similarities.

Quote:

I feel like this is starting to get away from Inara's companion thing here, though...we need to find a way to discuss her without bringing in Mal all the time



Good idea. But Inara the character, show-wise, is REALLY bound up in Mal and his own personal issues. I'd venture to say that's WHY she's a Companion specifically, other than getting attention with the s-word.

But yes, back to Companion-ing. I didn't mean to sound so uncompromising earlier. More tea as we continue our discussion? Lol...
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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:57 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


@KPO seriously, it's just chock full of EVERYTHING

Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:

My whole point was about SIMON'S possible psychology in going to Inara, if it had indeed had anything to do with hanging on to her highfalutin apron strings against the captain.

WHETHER or not it would have kept him and River from being kicked off the ship is not my point.

As for Simon's intuition, he IS River's sibling. There isn't an extreme amount of (realistic) weight in that, but there's definitely some, particularly since he does play it like that, the similarities.



Yeah, the more I think about this, the more I think you are making a good point about his thought process...and at the same time though, I think there is still an argument to be made that Simon's approach towards Inara is also at least somewhat influenced by his own experience with companions, and a reflection of Core attitudes towards them, which is in turn a subtle way of showing us that there's more to a Companion than a particularly high-rent call girl/courtesan. That's all I'm saying.

But your analysis added a new layer for me, so thank you for that


Quote:

Good idea. But Inara the character, show-wise, is REALLY bound up in Mal and his own personal issues. I'd venture to say that's WHY she's a Companion specifically, other than getting attention with the s-word.


yeah, she def. provides a contrast. the other problem with that though is I feel like we as the viewer are often directed to see things from Mal's POV, as the lead character...but his point of view is his alone, colored with all his other personal shiat going on, so I feel like for a more objective look at Inara and her vocation, Mal really needs to be taken out of the equation...which is easier said than done.

Quote:

But yes, back to Companion-ing. I didn't mean to sound so uncompromising earlier. More tea as we continue our discussion? Lol...


oh you didn't at all! I'm knocking back coffee at the mo, though. believe it or not, it puts me to sleep pretty fast when I drink it before bedtime.

/but then I run in all my dreams
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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:28 PM

BYTEMITE


And if you drink ENOUGH, you run fast enough that you get airborne. What's not to like?

Yeah, I concede the point about the newbies seeing right away about Mal and Inara, at least in that particular instance. In other cases, it has been pretty much an instant recognition. Atherton, anyone?

But I also like the idea of semi-intuitive Simon, too, and core world values guiding him to a familiar form of confessor.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:33 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
And if you drink ENOUGH, you run fast enough that you get airborne. What's not to like?

Yeah, I concede the point about the newbies seeing right away about Mal and Inara, at least in that particular instance. In other cases, it has been pretty much an instant recognition. Atherton, anyone?

But I also like the idea of semi-intuitive Simon, too, and core world values guiding him to a familiar form of confessor.



That's the plan! Leaf on the wind, till the crash at the end.

I actually enjoy doing these little tangents a lot but it gives the whole thread a very ADHD quality ;)

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:34 PM

ANOTHERSKY


Airborne? Pah. I become OMNIPOTENT.

I would settle for being blue again, and ten feet tall. With a tail. That was awesome.

Hey that man owed me ONE good movie-induced dream, after Aliens...

EDIT: Did I just accidentally prove your point?
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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:56 PM

BYTEMITE


IT'S TOO LATE FOR THE SENSE TALKY MAKE! SHORT ATTENTION SPANS MEAN YOU'RE NOT SAD AS LONG.

WHY AM I TALKING IN CAPITALS?!

Edit: Also, I have an interesting subpoint to bring up here tomorrow, actually related to Inara and her job and whether she LIKES being a companion. With AnotherSky's permission, of course.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 1:19 PM

KRELLEK


Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:39 AM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by KrelleK:
Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)




I think you're a bit "lost in the woods", KrelleK.
Follow the crickets, and you'll make it back to the thread you intended to post on.

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:42 AM

ANOTHERSKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Edit: Also, I have an interesting subpoint to bring up here tomorrow, actually related to Inara and her job and whether she LIKES being a companion. With AnotherSky's permission, of course.




Of course. The new subject and thread are here.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=42056&m=762200#762200

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:08 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Quote:

Originally posted by KrelleK:
Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)




I think you're a bit "lost in the woods", KrelleK.
Follow the crickets, and you'll make it back to the thread you intended to post on.

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Going for a ride.




thanks for leading me out the woods, I did have suspicion that i had gotten lost as you said

so to get back on the topic at hand:-)

I did not iritate, or rub me in a wrong way(the whole Companion thingy)I might be a little hypocritic then i say it would not be something I wished to see a sister/daughter of my own do, but I think it comes with the whole closeness to the familly-thing. and well in the guild that is described it is the companion that choses the client, and other seccurity measures set up so the Companions can feel relatively safe,(like the black mark to isolate bad customers like Wing)

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Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:08 AM

KRELLEK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherSky:
Quote:

Originally posted by KrelleK:
Well I did not get bugged as the question was asked then I saw it the first time, and well and still does not, maybbe because the first time i saw it i got completely lost in Summers characther: River:-)

It still happens i get a little teary eyed then I see River in some of the scenes, Like the closet scene with Simon in Serenity(movie) or the injection scene in Ariel before they shall get down to St. Lucy´s hospital

it also happens then I see waiting in the wings(Angel) :-)




I think you're a bit "lost in the woods", KrelleK.
Follow the crickets, and you'll make it back to the thread you intended to post on.

__

Going for a ride.




thanks for leading me out the woods, I did have suspicion that i had gotten lost as you said

so to get back on the topic at hand:-)

I did not iritate, or rub me in a wrong way(the whole Companion thingy)I might be a little hypocritic then i say it would not be something I wished to see a sister/daughter of my own do, but I think it comes with the whole closeness to the familly-thing. and well in the guild that is described it is the companion that choses the client, and other seccurity measures set up so the Companions can feel relatively safe,(like the black mark to isolate bad customers like Wing)

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