GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Serenity Ticket Sales Hurt By Broken Rule?

POSTED BY: TWO
UPDATED: Thursday, February 25, 2010 13:07
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 11642
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Monday, February 22, 2010 12:35 PM

STEGASAURUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


That assumes infallibility on the part of the original creator, which is blindly fan-ish in and of itself. Take, for instance, that there are many highly lauded professional filmmakers who are Star Wars fans. I have very little doubt that there are at the least, a few who could have written better scripts than the sequels had - given that even Lucas admits he's not much of a writer. Would they have been the stories he wanted to tell - no, but that does not mean they could not have been better.




But then, they wouldn't be THE story, would they? Again, ownership and telling of a story resides soley with the mind who created it, regardless of the story and how well it's presented.

And again, that's just my opinion.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 12:46 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Hey! was it you who wrote the "Story So Far" crawl for Star Wars Episode 1?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Thanks for the biggest LOL of the week!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 22, 2010 12:53 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I don't know anyone, whether they had seen the series or not, who was badmouthing the movie as they left. There was no "it's depressing" bad word of mouth problem. It had decent word-of-mouth.

The peeps at the theatre I saw it with on the first day left the building in shell-shocked silence, with the occasional "wow" being muttered.
I contrast that with the smiling & laughing & "That was GREAT"s being vocalized after SW in '77.
However, after reading your post, I'll concede that that was probably not as big a factor as I first conjured.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 22, 2010 1:13 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
...Dislike the story teller/telling if that's your choice, but understand that on the fan sites, you will be little more than an annoyance than an enlightened individual with something important to say.

That's just my 2cp though.

I can't win, I can't change your minds, but let us fight! I want to die in a blaze of glory, totally surrounded by Reavers who are taking no prisoners. Forget I wrote that. I surrender right now. Notice I'm using “no” frequently. Very negative on my part.

I got this crazy notion that finding no faults with a work of art will encourage the artist to make the same mistakes, again. Superfanboys like “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” are destructive to Joss Whedon's career. When Joss does something unbelievable ( and I mean that in the bad sense, as in how would anyone but a blockhead believe it ), the unbelievable needs correction. Maybe not what I suggested, but something needs to be done. Or else it drives away ordinary folk. Superfansboys will believe anything. But Joss needs to sell tickets to people who are not over-committed to his legend.

And while I'm at it, the Operative's pinch of death on Doctor Mathias' love handles, is unbelievable. Find me a reference on the internet to a plausible technique for paralyzing Doctor Mathias -- rigid arms, legs, spine, unable to speak. No fair to knock Mathias unconscious and surround him with plaster of paris. The very same technique used on Mathias has to NOT work on Mal because of his moved nerve cluster. What is the name of that nerve cluster? Was it discovered by the anatomist J. Whedon in the 21st Century? If that nerve cluster doesn't have a name and does not do what it did in the movie, it should not have been a major part of the movie. I can accept artificial gravity easily; I can't accept Joss redesigning the human body. Firefly is not X-Men. There are limits that should never be crossed, except in comic books.

I notice that “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” posted nothing in the Blue Sun Room. Not one damn thing. Very strong indication that you got zero imagination and no ideas. I wait for your murderous replies. I fear you completely.

Now it is your turn to destroy me with superior scorn... [If I was smart, I would not press enter on this response. I'm pushing the button. I hope I survive what is about to happen to me.]

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 22, 2010 1:28 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by two:

Superfanboys like “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” are destructive to Joss Whedon's career.

Dollhouse wasn't all that. Try not to faint.
Quote:


I notice that “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” posted nothing in the Blue Sun Room. Not one damn thing. Very strong indication that you got zero imagination and no ideas.

Can't speak for the others, but in my case you have no idea, LOL.
Interesting, yet pathetic stab.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 22, 2010 1:49 PM

STEGASAURUS


Agreed, Chrisisall. A pathetic attempt to hurt our feelings and try to win on the interwebz.

Two, honestly I wasn't trying to put forth any attempt to hurt your feelings, nor was I saying you have no imagination. I was simply stating that coming on a fan site and saying "I can do it better!" is not the way to carry on meaningful conversations with the fans that inhabit that society.

Say you have a different take. Say you were disappointed. Say anything you want really, but those statements of superiority over the creator of said fanbase is nothing more than an attempt at sparring with said fans.

I'm sure you're very creative. I'm sure you have amazing literary skills. I might even be tempted to read some of your works. I would just prefer that you not come here and proclaim your kingship of the realm of Firefly. That title rests soley with Joss as far as I am concerned.

G'day, Sir.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 3:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:


I'm sure you're very creative. I'm sure you have amazing literary skills. I might even be tempted to read some of your works. I would just prefer that you not come here and proclaim your kingship of the realm of Firefly. That title rests soley with Joss as far as I am concerned.


Wow Steg, you are SO much a better man than I. I'd stab "Two" given the chance.
Twice.
But politely (and not deep).



The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:11 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I am so anxious to see that upcoming movie that Two is co-writing with Alex Epstein.



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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:13 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Two congratulations, you've fought bravely and occasionally dirtily, and been very entertaining. I too would like to volunteer to be a script doctor on Serenity 2. Unfortunately I would quite likely remove a lot of your changes...

I think the 5 bad points about Serenity that you nailed to the door with Luther-esque zeal are not the reason Serenity 'failed'. I think some are quite minor plot-holes that many will forgive, or not think much of - and some are largely subjective quibbles that firefly fans can argue over long and hard. That's what she said.

My point is a movie either sweeps you away or it doesn't. Star Wars didn't have the marketing budget (initially) to make it a hit: but it also didn't have the polishing that you claim - see this list of 'Star Wars blunders' longer than your 5 theses: http://www.arrowsmithweb.com/index.htm?/starwars.htm

Nevertheless Star Wars managed to capture the public imagination in a way that Serenity (and to be fair, almost every other movie ever made) failed to do. Star Wars was much more epic than Serenity, for a start.

I think Serenity could've been better polished, better marketed - probably enough to score a big enough hit to earn sequels. But I don't think it could ever have been Star Wars - partly because it deals with a more complex and ambivalent evil empire, and partly because the firefly universe was never Joss's 'great idea for a movie' - it just went that route by last resort, with the planned story outline for the whole second series being condensed and adapted for the purpose.

Heads should roll

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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:21 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
http://www.arrowsmithweb.com/index.htm?/starwars.htm



And Two poops his/her pants in the face Kpo's logic!!! Ha ha


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:33 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Two congratulations, you've fought bravely and occasionally dirtily, and been very entertaining. I too would like to volunteer to be a script doctor on Serenity 2. Unfortunately I would quite likely remove a lot of your changes...

I think the 5 bad points about Serenity that you nailed to the door with Luther-esque zeal are not the reason Serenity 'failed'. I think some are quite minor plot-holes that many will forgive, or not think much of - and some are largely subjective quibbles that firefly fans can argue over long and hard. That's what she said.

My point is a movie either sweeps you away or it doesn't. Star Wars didn't have the marketing budget (initially) to make it a hit: but it also didn't have the polishing that you claim - see this list of 'Star Wars blunders' longer than your 5 theses: http://www.arrowsmithweb.com/index.htm?/starwars.htm

Nevertheless Star Wars managed to capture the public imagination in a way that Serenity (and to be fair, almost every other movie ever made) failed to do. Star Wars was much more epic than Serenity, for a start.

I think Serenity could've been better polished, better marketed - probably enough to score a big enough hit to earn sequels. But I don't think it could ever have been Star Wars - partly because it deals with a more complex and ambivalent evil empire, and partly because the firefly universe was never Joss's 'great idea for a movie' - it just went that route by last resort, with the planned story outline for the whole second series being condensed and adapted for the purpose.

Heads should roll

Thanks for the list of StarWars Blunders. It is like a list of faults in “Toy Story”: 1) How can Woody possibly talk without pulling his own string? 2) How can Buzz Lightyear not know he can't fly and his laser can't fire? 3)...

When I saw StarWars for the first time, it was a Saturday morning matinee like George Lucas went to as a kid. I never took anything in StarWars as remotely possible. Light-sabers, galactic empire, protocol robots, 3D chess, DeathStar, faster-than-light-speed, everything, it was never real. It was a tale of wonder and magic that allowed Lucas to get away with anything if he did it with style. Everything can be believable in a fairy tale because none of it is real.

On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale. And also very believable, exactly like StarWars.

Firefly, and most TV doctor shows, cop shows, The Wire, Breaking Bad are aiming for verisimilitude. Unfortunately, Serenity has a dozen odd spots where for a minute it stops being as realistic as Firefly. And Serenity stops being believable for a minute. Audiences notice those minutes. Popcorn falls from our open mouths into our laps. We are stunned. Did an alternate Universe suddenly intrude into the AMC Gulf Pointe 30 for a minute? That is discombobulating.

Serenity ended up somewhere in no-man's land between realistic Firefly and fairytale StarWars. A poor place for a spaceship movie to earn money.

With real human bodies, some things are very hard to believe: The Operative's pinch of death on Dr Mathias is pure “Chobits” www.imdb.com/title/tt0326672/ where robots have switches to paralyze them. I very patiently wait for a wise guy to tell me the anatomical name of that nerve cluster the Operative pinches. I have waited for years. If it doesn't really exist, the paralyzing switch idea should have stayed over at Chobits. If it does exist, well... I owe everybody in the 'Verse a round of drinks. A&W Root Beer for everyone!

The less written about the Operative's sword deep in Mal's guts (or shallowly grazing his blubber) the better. Joss tried to fix that in editing by picking different shots.

Jayne walked around on a leg that was harpooned. Whiskey and a rag bandage fixes Jayne's leg? Does the filthy rag smell like it was dipped in bullshit? That stink can't be good for ticket sales.

And Mal turning his back twice on the Operative? The first time was a tactical error. The second time was silly. After a painful beating from the Operative, Mal would remember not to turn his back. But Mal forgets. Suddenly I'm watching a Saturday morning TV cartoon with live action actors. The only move that made sense in the real world was for Mal to kill the Operative right then and there. Anything else was nonsense intended to move the fight to a more picturesque location. Say, across the deep pit of whirling death blades.

Serenity is perfect except for those few odd spots where it becomes unreal. Every time it veers across the lines painted on the road, the lines that are never suppose to be crossed, into on-coming unreality traffic, it worries me. But in a minute Serenity always swerves back into its right lane before it has a fatal accident.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:38 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale.


Ermm...it wasn't real, it was a tv show. What fantasy world are you living in?




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:29 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


That assumes infallibility on the part of the original creator, which is blindly fan-ish in and of itself. Take, for instance, that there are many highly lauded professional filmmakers who are Star Wars fans. I have very little doubt that there are at the least, a few who could have written better scripts than the sequels had - given that even Lucas admits he's not much of a writer. Would they have been the stories he wanted to tell - no, but that does not mean they could not have been better.




But then, they wouldn't be THE story, would they? Again, ownership and telling of a story resides soley with the mind who created it, regardless of the story and how well it's presented.

And again, that's just my opinion.



Such a narrow view. Who says there is a "The" story? Besides, I never commented on that concept - just pointing out that the creator doesn't have a monopoly of telling a good story.

Take for instance comic books - the "classic" stories of virtually any given character were done by people other than the creators. Does that invalidate them as stories?

Or flip the concept - should Joss never work on a story that didn't originate with him? He's done it many times in the past, but that was okay, right?

You may really believe what you said, but as a notion it's highly unrealistic and quite narrow in scope.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:31 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
I don't know anyone, whether they had seen the series or not, who was badmouthing the movie as they left. There was no "it's depressing" bad word of mouth problem. It had decent word-of-mouth.

The peeps at the theatre I saw it with on the first day left the building in shell-shocked silence, with the occasional "wow" being muttered.
I contrast that with the smiling & laughing & "That was GREAT"s being vocalized after SW in '77.
However, after reading your post, I'll concede that that was probably not as big a factor as I first conjured.


The laughing Chrisisall



That is exactly how I and my friends walked out of the theatre - but that doesn't for a split second mean we didn't love it.

I've walked out of many films I loved in a state of shock. Sometimes it takes a while for the mind to process, particularly when dealing with a film that ends with a 25-minute adrenaline surge mixed with an emotional gut-punch.

those movies that people stumble out of the theatre babbling about are the fast food ones that folks forget by the time they leave the parking lot.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:37 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:


I notice that “chrisisall” “ImNotHere” and “Stegasaurus” posted nothing in the Blue Sun Room. Not one damn thing. Very strong indication that you got zero imagination and no ideas. I wait for your murderous replies. I fear you completely.



Not writing fan fic is an indication of a lack of creativity....?

Hey, here's a thought, maybe using some else's characters and setting isn't exactly "creative".

I think you need to look into the superfanboy mirror.

Quote:

Now it is your turn to destroy me with superior scorn... [If I was smart, I would not press enter on this response. I'm pushing the button. I hope I survive what is about to happen to me.]



You know, you were kinda amusing when you started off. Now you're just being a massive douchebag.

And your "Firefly is the real world" comment..... whoah.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:



That is exactly how I and my friends walked out of the theatre - but that doesn't for a split second mean we didn't love it.


Oh, everyone loved it, or almost everyone at any rate. It was *good* shock.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:50 AM

STEGASAURUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Such a narrow view. Who says there is a "The" story? Besides, I never commented on that concept - just pointing out that the creator doesn't have a monopoly of telling a good story.


Who says there is "The" story? Um, the creator of said story? I'm not saying folk can't create their own versions of a story, I'm just of the opinion that any deviation to the story changes said story and thus is not the same as the original concept.

Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Take for instance comic books - the "classic" stories of virtually any given character were done by people other than the creators. Does that invalidate them as stories?


Not at all. The story hasn't been told yet, or is a continuation, or is an alternate univers storyline. Very rarely do you see anyone go back and rewrite the story from the original telling and proclaim their's is better. When it does happen, you usually see the die-hard fans crying foul or just enjoying their next installment. There's all sorts of folk.

Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Or flip the concept - should Joss never work on a story that didn't originate with him? He's done it many times in the past, but that was okay, right?


Even if a story told by Joss was a rehash of a story done before, because it's being done in the Whedon-verse, it's a new telling of a new story simply because the characters are there. But I think you're missing my original point.


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
You may really believe what you said, but as a notion it's highly unrealistic and quite narrow in scope.


The "notion" as you put it is my opinion. Of course it's narrow in scope. It applies to me and my thoughts/feelings/beliefs, and I never for one second thought anyone here shared them in whole.

Alow me to try to get this back on track though. I have an issue with Two coming on here and stating that sales were bad because of the story and he could have done it better. My reasoning and disdain for his statement is simply because we could never know if he really could.

Past that, anything he comes up with as "better" is simply a re-write of a story that was just fine as is. Especially according to the majority denizens of this message board. We wanted more Firefly, we got Serenity, and we were reasonably happy. For Two to came here and attempt to illicit some form of argument by his/her statements seems like a blatant attempt to rile our population here.

As I stated before, I am sure that to some degree Two is creative and I might actually enjoy their work. But again, I can look at the rewrites or fresh works individually apart from the orginal work and still derive some enjoyment from it (if it's done well). But I would not support a statement of them having done "better" than the original story teller, especially if I already thoroughly enjoyed the original.

On another board I visit, there are several nay-sayers about SGU. They are die-hard fans of SG-1 and SG:A, so they have felt slighted by SGU and it's "different-ness". As I have told them: like it or don't. Your opinion is just as valuable as mine and state it if you like. But don't tell me that the writers/creators are wrong in any sense of the telling of the story. You may have built a kinship or fondness of the characters of your beloved shows, but the creators CREATED them. It's their story to tell.

Ok, I'm just kinda ramblin' here as I'm working while typing. If there's anything I've stated that is at all unclear, I apologize but you are more than welcome to PM me for clarification.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:34 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
Who says there is "The" story? Um, the creator of said story? I'm not saying folk can't create their own versions of a story, I'm just of the opinion that any deviation to the story changes said story and thus is not the same as the original concept.



Again, such a narrow view. The original writers change their course many time, thus it's not the "original concept".

They also often hand over their creations to others, sometimes guiding the story, others not. Is it then not the real story?

Or, to keep it strictly to re-writes, as that's where this started in regards to Serenity - Joss has done many rewrites. Was he violating Graham Yosts original story when he rewrote Speed?

Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Take for instance comic books - the "classic" stories of virtually any given character were done by people other than the creators. Does that invalidate them as stories?

Quote:


Not at all. The story hasn't been told yet, or is a continuation, or is an alternate univers storyline.



You're not being very consistent here then. If another writer had taken on the latter Star Wars movies, how would that not be a continuation? Or if someone else were to take over Firefly.... a continuation.


Quote:

Very rarely do you see anyone go back and rewrite the story from the original telling and proclaim their's is better. When it does happen, you usually see the die-hard fans crying foul or just enjoying their next installment. There's all sorts of folk.


Actually - in comics, where my point began - yeah, that does happen pretty frequently. How well people accept it depends entirely on how good the story is - not fidelity to the creator's vision.

Quote:


Even if a story told by Joss was a rehash of a story done before, because it's being done in the Whedon-verse, it's a new telling of a new story simply because the characters are there. But I think you're missing my original point.



So, it's not okay for other writers to take a stab at someone else's story or characters.... but it IS okay for Joss?

Your point seems to boil down to: If it's Joss, he can do whatever he wants.

But if I'm missing your real point, please clarify.


Quote:


The "notion" as you put it is my opinion. Of course it's narrow in scope. It applies to me and my thoughts/feelings/beliefs, and I never for one second thought anyone here shared them in whole.



I meant narrow minded - of course I don't ascribe your opinion to others. but it's a rather narrow-minded opinion (and rather inconsistent in it's application).

Quote:

Alow me to try to get this back on track though. I have an issue with Two coming on here and stating that sales were bad because of the story and he could have done it better. My reasoning and disdain for his statement is simply because we could never know if he really could.


I also think Two had some pretty faulty logic going - but you refuted him with equally flawed logic. I pointed this error out in the same way you did to two - though I've tried to keep it on an intellectual level rather than personal as you seem to be.

Quote:

Past that, anything he comes up with as "better" is simply a re-write of a story that was just fine as is. Especially according to the majority denizens of this message board.


There are many fans who disliked things about the film. Opinion is opinion, and everyone has a right to share theirs, even Two.



Quote:

We wanted more Firefly, we got Serenity, and we were reasonably happy. For Two to came here and attempt to illicit some form of argument by his/her statements seems like a blatant attempt to rile our population here.


seemed like a genuine attempt at analyzing the story. I may not agree with the conclusions he came to, but that doesn't mean it's not worth analyzing.

And no one forced you to get into it, if you found it so inflammatory.

Quote:

As I stated before, I am sure that to some degree Two is creative and I might actually enjoy their work. But again, I can look at the rewrites or fresh works individually apart from the orginal work and still derive some enjoyment from it (if it's done well). But I would not support a statement of them having done "better" than the original story teller, especially if I already thoroughly enjoyed the original.


So, if you liked it.... everyone must have.....

Quote:

On another board I visit, there are several nay-sayers about SGU. They are die-hard fans of SG-1 and SG:A, so they have felt slighted by SGU and it's "different-ness". As I have told them: like it or don't. Your opinion is just as valuable as mine and state it if you like. But don't tell me that the writers/creators are wrong in any sense of the telling of the story. You may have built a kinship or fondness of the characters of your beloved shows, but the creators CREATED them. It's their story to tell.


Their story huh.... so, Dean Devlin is still working on Stargate?

Oh, I get it - the original creator thing only applies when you want it to....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:35 AM

STEGASAURUS


You're wandering off the mark again there, Story.

Allow me to once again put into perspective MY views in regards to the story and story-teller: It's not A story until it's been presented to me.

Does that make more sense to you? Any adjustments to a story have no bearing to me until the story's been told. The story of Speed was as was presented to me at the theater. Serenity's story is as was presented to me at the theater. Any changes pre- and post-production are moot. Those changes aren't the story. The story is and always will be as presented to me in the form of entertainment I take them in.

You accuse me of being narrow minded, but then how could my narrow mindedness possibly cope with stories like say Smallville? Especially when I thoroughly enjoy that series?

I'm not narrow minded, I simply seem to have a problem conveying my views well in a literary sense. Prolly why I'm not a novelist or screen writer.

And please understand while I do enjoy Joss's work, I absolutely believe someone else could come along and write/produce a continuation of his conceptual story. But I don't believe anyone could rewrite Serenity to make it any better, because the story has already been told to me.

That, of course, does not take into account the changes in the medium in which the story is told. A remake that stays true to the original but has better effects I never have a problem with. But again, for me, that does not make it better.

At this point, I don't think I've taken any personal stabs at anyone here, unlike you and Two. I've merely tried to point out that to come on a message board inhabited by fans (remember, fans is a shortened form of fanatics) of said story teller and claiming to do it better is not the smartest decision to make if you are trying to garner kudos for your attempt at rewriting the established works. Instead, present your views and remember that not everyone will share your view.

If anything, I would think that you have taken my comments more personnally than Two did. You seem to want to proclaim I'm wrong about something, but who are you to tell me that what I feel and think in regards to my ability to absorb information is wrong? Really you're just another anonmous name on a message board, nothing more.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings with any of my earlier postings, and I'm sorry if I have been in any way unclear in my ramblings. They tend to make sense to me. *shrug*

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:35 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by two:

Serenity is perfect except for those few odd spots where it becomes unreal.



So lets get this straight: you worry about the intern's ability to open a filing cabinet after witnessing a murder, the "nerve pinch" thing, Jayne's leg wound and other trivia destroying the "verisimilitude" of the film, yet little details like (deep breath):

an (initially) unarmed 15 year-old girl single-handedly fighting off a zombie army, ravening zombies who can fly spaceships, an entire Earthlike world being "forgotten", a hacker with (apparently) a planet full of giant comms gear to himself, a giant solar system whose planets appear to be fixed like islands in an ocean, spaceships that can cross a solar system in days (powered by an engine made out of old washing machine parts and maintained by a totally untrained young woman who "just has a knack for machines") but, when they cross paths, appear to have relative velocities of about 10 knots, FTL communications (just as impossible as FTL travel according to current physics), typical Hollywood fight sequences where the hero gets beaten to the verge of death before suddenly turning the tables and a universe where everybody dresses and talks like they lived in the 19th century...

...are "realistic". WTF?

Now, if Serenity/Firefly claimed to be "based on a true story" or made a big fuss of having scientific consultants from NASA I'd happily whale on it over all of the above (and, maybe, some of your points). But its not - its just as much fantasy and allegory as Buffy, so my disbelief is willingly suspended.

The other point that you are missing, going back to your original issue about editing, is that that sort of "creativity by the numbers" is a reliable way of making mediocre films. Its a good starting point, but the editors that will go places are the ones that know when to dump the rules. For my money, the earlier parts of "Serenity", the sigue from the Universal logo, through the school lesson, to River's rescue, the introduction of the Operative and the tour of the ship - are one of the most distinctive and impressive parts of the movie. If I was going to start second guessing, I'd tone down the whole "River the Zombie Slayer" angle.

Of course, if you've got Tom Cruise on board, a cross-promotion deal with McDonalds or such an astronomical budget that the press are devoting column-yards to speculating whether you're going to bankrupt the studios or whether your ex-wife is going to beat you to the Oscar... well, then you can get away with painting by numbers.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:38 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

There are many fans who disliked things about the film. Opinion is opinion, and everyone has a right to share theirs, even Two.




I have decided that Two's opinion is not worthy of sharing with us due to his/her innate hatred of Serenity. Two may appeal to me in writing if he/she wishes.

And Story, all Steg is saying really is that Two did not create Firefly, nor was he/she hired to write Serenity, so that gives him/her ZERO final say in the matter, beyond his/her own THEORIES in the matter of it's storytelling or lack thereof, which he/she is presenting as stone cold FACT.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:44 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Am I wrong in assuming that the consensus opinion is that Two, James Cutting and Alex Epstein are wrong and the rest of us who love Serenity just the way it is are right?

Which is it?




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:49 AM

STEGASAURUS


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Story, all Steg is saying really is that Two did not create Firefly, nor was he/she hired to write Serenity, so that gives him/her ZERO final say in the matter, beyond his/her own THEORIES in the matter of it's storytelling or lack thereof, which he/she is presenting as stone cold FACT.


^ That.

I knew SOMEONE got what I was trying to say, however ineloquently I was saying it.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:52 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:


an (initially) unarmed 15 year-old girl single-handedly fighting off a zombie army, ravening zombies who can fly spaceships, an entire Earthlike world being "forgotten", a hacker with (apparently) a planet full of giant comms gear to himself, a giant solar system whose planets appear to be fixed like islands in an ocean, spaceships that can cross a solar system in days (powered by an engine made out of old washing machine parts and maintained by a totally untrained young woman who "just has a knack for machines") but, when they cross paths, appear to have relative velocities of about 10 knots, FTL communications (just as impossible as FTL travel according to current physics), typical Hollywood fight sequences where the hero gets beaten to the verge of death before suddenly turning the tables and a universe where everybody dresses and talks like they lived in the 19th century...

...are "realistic". WTF?



ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."
I mean, doesn't Serenity (or ANY spaceship) go rather hermetic when the doors are shut? How exactly could anything get in, or live for long without food & water? The salesman ain't like to leave ships doors open nor unlocked- that'd invite thievery.
That one little *unrealistic* detail made the series unwatchable, and caused FF's cancellation!




The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Am I wrong in assuming that the consensus opinion is that Two, James Cutting and Alex Epstein are wrong and the rest of us who love Serenity just the way it is are right?

Which is it?

As in any realm there are valid points to be made all around, it's rarely a balls-out either-or scenario.
But yeah, we're more right.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:59 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:


an (initially) unarmed 15 year-old girl single-handedly fighting off a zombie army, ravening zombies who can fly spaceships, an entire Earthlike world being "forgotten", a hacker with (apparently) a planet full of giant comms gear to himself, a giant solar system whose planets appear to be fixed like islands in an ocean, spaceships that can cross a solar system in days (powered by an engine made out of old washing machine parts and maintained by a totally untrained young woman who "just has a knack for machines") but, when they cross paths, appear to have relative velocities of about 10 knots, FTL communications (just as impossible as FTL travel according to current physics), typical Hollywood fight sequences where the hero gets beaten to the verge of death before suddenly turning the tables and a universe where everybody dresses and talks like they lived in the 19th century...

...are "realistic". WTF?



ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."
I mean, doesn't Serenity (or ANY spaceship) go rather hermetic when the doors are shut? How exactly could anything get in, or live for long without food & water? The salesman ain't like to leave ships doors open nor unlocked- that'd invite thievery.
That one little *unrealistic* detail made the series unwatchable, and caused FF's cancellation!




The laughing Chrisisall


No, no, no. It was the lighting cable being drawn across the floor by the key grip in that scene that took me right out of the story. Might as well have been a boom mike in the shot. I stopped watching Firefly at that point and refuse to watch it or Serenity ever again!!!




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:03 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Story, all Steg is saying really is that Two did not create Firefly, nor was he/she hired to write Serenity, so that gives him/her ZERO final say in the matter, beyond his/her own THEORIES in the matter of it's storytelling or lack thereof, which he/she is presenting as stone cold FACT.


^ That.

I knew SOMEONE got what I was trying to say, however ineloquently I was saying it.



Fair enough.

Sorry if I got too into the debate. Debating movies for me is like politics for most folk. Just ask Chris.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:07 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
You're wandering off the mark again there, Story.

Allow me to once again put into perspective MY views in regards to the story and story-teller: It's not A story until it's been presented to me.

Does that make more sense to you? Any adjustments to a story have no bearing to me until the story's been told. The story of Speed was as was presented to me at the theater. Serenity's story is as was presented to me at the theater. Any changes pre- and post-production are moot. Those changes aren't the story.



Okay, well I see the disconnect then, as since we were talking about changes to Serenity - which is of course already presented as you put it - I thought we were talking about a hypothetical.

OF COURSE no one should change it then, but had someone rewritten the script, before it had been presented (as was my point with the Star Wars movies) then it would still be perfectly valid as "the" story.

To be honest though, I still don't really see what you were getting at, as your arguments are rather contradictory - other than telling Two to shove it, essentially.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:12 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Debating movies for me is like politics for most folk. Just ask Chris.


Wanna go on Blade Runner agin?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:18 PM

STORYMARK


But we both love it, right?

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:26 PM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."



Actually, the real reason that Serenity failed was that people were offended by that line about Kaylee's use of battery-powered devices. I can provide eye-witness evidence from when I saw the film in the cinema that at least 2 people walked out after that line.

(Unless they just went to the bathroom).

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM

STEGASAURUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
To be honest though, I still don't really see what you were getting at, as your arguments are rather contradictory - other than telling Two to shove it, essentially."


My problem is that while I'm trying to disprove/dispell/diswhatever an individual in a forum, I do my best to try to let them know that I am not attacking them personally, so I will throw in what I may agree with coupled with my personal feelings and experiences. This tends to make my posts a semi-difficult read, admittedly.

What Chrisisall posted was the core of my point.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:47 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
ImNot, none of that bothers me, BUT that line in Out Of Gas about "somethin' must have been livin' in here..."



Actually, the real reason that Serenity failed was that people were offended by that line about Kaylee's use of battery-powered devices. I can provide eye-witness evidence from when I saw the film in the cinema that at least 2 people walked out after that line.

(Unless they just went to the bathroom).



If they were guys, maybe they were off to their bunks....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:00 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....


To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:26 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....


To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall


And the answer is NOT.



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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:37 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....


To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall


And the answer is NOT.



The movie was *DESIGNED* around a narration, in fact over an hours worth was recorded- the fact that they wrote what they ended up using in one quick shot near the end of principle photography should not make peeps dismiss the narration altogether. Ford conspired with Scott to eliminate it at the last minute, thinkng to make it more "artsy," a big mistake IMO, and in the opinion of the producers. I *usually* never side with the suits, but in this ONE instance, it was a good call.
Yeah, the narration could have been better, but what got slapped on was sufficient to evoke the mood originally intended.
Wanna fight?



The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:52 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale. And also very believable, exactly like StarWars.


I think I know what you're saying, different programmes/movies have different standards of realism. I wouldn't say Firefly was 'completely' real; just considering something like character dialogue in the firefly universe - though I love it - it's not quite how people speak in real life.

And I wouldn't compare Firefly to The Wire, a show that aims for greater realism in this kind of respect.

All in all I think you have a point or two about a few glitches in Serenity, perhaps worse than in Firefly. And I liked your analogy about chauffering Joss Whedon's child 'Serenity'. I personally think Joss Whedon's other child 'Firefly', whose life was tragically cut short, was the real beauty of the family (regardless of minor fashion faux-paux on the parts of either, hats etc.). I love Serenity, who is beautiful in her own right, but part of my love for her is a carry-over of my love of her sister Firefly, whom she reminds me of.

Of course it's subjective. Some people will think Serenity is the real beauty, or just a wonderful *maturation* of little Firefly for the big screen.

I might check out this 190 page script - but I have my doubts that it is impeccably better, and I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...


Heads should roll

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...



Just to say, I *personally* would not have had that happen, but then, I am not the God of that 'Verse.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:19 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I think the reasons the movie failed at the box office were quite simple. No one knew what the hell Serenity was, who these people were, and what they were all about doing. Sure Browncoats knew the characters and the background, but no one else did. To BC's the movie was huge, to others it was merely a strange movie about a place and circumstances that the general public would not have a clue about, or relate to in any connective way. Although certain aspects of the movie could be considered "epic" by BC's, the mass audience would have considered the movie to be rather "small" in scope and limited in scale compared to previous blockbusters. Also, the characters and dialogue that were oh so wonderful for us to see and hear, would have gone totally un-appreciated and unknown by a new audience hearing and seeing it all for the first time. And let's face it, the BDM is rather a depressing presentation. The attempt at turning our generally easy-going and likeable heroes into serious characters with angst and bitterness was a turn-off for many. One did not walk out of the theater feeling good or cheering about anything.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:41 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

On the other hand, Firefly was completely real, never a fairytale. And also very believable, exactly like StarWars.


I think I know what you're saying, different programmes/movies have different standards of realism. I wouldn't say Firefly was 'completely' real; just considering something like character dialogue in the firefly universe - though I love it - it's not quite how people speak in real life.

And I wouldn't compare Firefly to The Wire, a show that aims for greater realism in this kind of respect.

All in all I think you have a point or two about a few glitches in Serenity, perhaps worse than in Firefly. And I liked your analogy about chauffering Joss Whedon's child 'Serenity'. I personally think Joss Whedon's other child 'Firefly', whose life was tragically cut short, was the real beauty of the family (regardless of minor fashion faux-paux on the parts of either, hats etc.). I love Serenity, who is beautiful in her own right, but part of my love for her is a carry-over of my love of her sister Firefly, whom she reminds me of.

Of course it's subjective. Some people will think Serenity is the real beauty, or just a wonderful *maturation* of little Firefly for the big screen.

I might check out this 190 page script - but I have my doubts that it is impeccably better, and I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...

The 190 page screenplay solved some problems in the 126 page screenplay.

I'm pimping the idea that Joss Whedon killed Wash so that he could be resurrected in a sequel. The short story by kieyra, Indistinguishable from Magic, sketches out how that would be done. www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=5185

“I like this so much I wish we could see it happen in the next gorram movie,” commented Amdobell.

*~* Spoiler for Indistinguishable from Magic *~*
There is a little problem with that particular story. It is not that it violates physics; it is that the story violates what I think/know about human nature. The Alliance designs a time machine and never uses it. I can not swallow that as easily as I can the existence of a time machine that Kaylee builds from plans River stole. Do you want to know what the main problem is when writing a genre story? How preposterous can a story get before people turn away in disbelief.

If you go too far, the story is ruined in the opinion of the stodgier people. If you don't go far enough, the story is a bore for the rest. It happens all the time -- half the audience is bewildered in one part of a movie, the other half is bored in another part, leaving a story that people feel lukewarm about. (It is possible to have a time machine in a mainstream movie: Deja Vu with Denzel Washington is one example. I'm saying the Time Traveler's Daughter is another, even if there is no actual machine with blinking lights.)

As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies. That's the real reason why more movie tickets are sold to the young than the old.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:55 AM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


Quote:

1) Jayne walking on his leg after being speared by Reavers. Myriam, who spent a week in the hospital after breaking a bone there, said she couldn't believe it.

Mal: "...you do your job. Patch up my crew..."
Simon's a really good doctor. Duh!

Quote:

2) The Operative's pinch of death on Doctor Mathias' love-handle. That pinch doesn't exist because nobody's body works like that, unless they are aliens.

Have someone you know knock one of your vertibrae out of place and see how that feels.

Quote:

3) Mal's quick-draw on the Operative: Afterward, why did Mal turn his back on the Operative? Why not kill the Op immediately?

'Cause then the Op wouldn't have be alive to tell the solders to stand down. Even with the "better" ending you have linked.

Quote:

4) Jayne's drunken plan to put River on the shuttle. Who would believe that the shuttle will be able to speed away faster than Serenity can follow?

Jayne just started drinking, he wouldn't have been drunk yet. Jayne isn't known to be a great thinker.

Passion Rules Reason.

Quote:

5) Once the Alliance had their guns on River, the story ended 30 seconds later. It can't end now! That's too rushed! It needed to be stretched out another minute because this is the best part of the movie.

Save some of that for the sequel! Besides, the battle was already pretty drawn out at this point.



--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:31 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by two:

As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies.

Don't be such a prig.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:21 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Or did we get into it over the narration? I forget....


To narrate or not to narrate, that is the question.


The laughing Chrisisall


And the answer is NOT.



The movie was *DESIGNED* around a narration, in fact over an hours worth was recorded- the fact that they wrote what they ended up using in one quick shot near the end of principle photography should not make peeps dismiss the narration altogether. Ford conspired with Scott to eliminate it at the last minute, thinkng to make it more "artsy," a big mistake IMO, and in the opinion of the producers. I *usually* never side with the suits, but in this ONE instance, it was a good call.
Yeah, the narration could have been better, but what got slapped on was sufficient to evoke the mood originally intended.
Wanna fight?



The laughing Chrisisall



Well, most fans of the film, and EVERYONE who worked on it, prefer it gone. Sorry.

It may have been designed for it (though I question that), but that doesn't mean it was a good idea or worked. That's why there is a post-production process - to refine the film, and sometimes ditch things they planned on that didn't work the way they wanted.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:23 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I happen to be one of those people who thought it was good for the tension of the movie that Wash *did* die...
l



Absolutely agree. Once that happened - I was convinced they were ALL going to die. It made the ending one of the most intense viewing experiences I've ever had. If wash had lived, there would have been none of that, it would have been just another shoot-out and fistfight.

Sure, it hurt to loose Wash - but it was supposed to. Joss is a smart man, he know just what to do to kick the ending into high gear.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:27 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:


As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies. That's the real reason why more movie tickets are sold to the young than the old.




And the true mark of a lousy amateur writer is when they throw tantrums and toss insults when people don't like their story..... or in this case, their heavy-handed insistence on their own (un-evidenced) brilliance.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:30 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies. That's the real reason why more movie tickets are sold to the young than the old.


That's because most Hollywood movies aren't mature enough to appeal to discerning adults, but Serenity was. I would much rather have Serenity just the way it is rather than Joss compromising to appeal to nerdy ticket buyers.

And as for Wash's death, don't forget what the definition of a hero is.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:53 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Well, most fans of the film

Name them.
Quote:

and EVERYONE who worked on it
Not EVERYONE, clearly
Quote:

prefer it gone. Sorry.
Don't be sorry, just accept that many prefer the narration.
Quote:



It may have been designed for it (though I question that)

With over an hours worth of recorded narration???
Quote:

but that doesn't mean it was a good idea or worked. That's why there is a post-production process - to refine the film, and sometimes ditch things they planned on that didn't work the way they wanted.

IMO, that was Ridley's indulgent phase, when he thought he could do no wrong by jettisoning the screenwriter's intent & go more Worhol with the project. Look at his next one where he went too far the other way (Legend).


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Absolutely agree. Once that happened - I was convinced they were ALL going to die. It made the ending one of the most intense viewing experiences I've ever had.

Totally. I was never so thrashed by a movie before. I felt like a wet dish-rag after. Even more than after The Empire Strikes Back.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
most Hollywood movies aren't mature enough to appeal to discerning adults, but Serenity was. I would much rather have Serenity just the way it is rather than Joss compromising to appeal to nerdy ticket buyers.


My man!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:52 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by two:

As always, children and nerds are easier to please than adults who expect more from movies.

Don't be such a prig.



The laughing Chrisisall

I would have said to me: "Two, you're arrogant. You think you're better than us?" That sounds Badger-esque. For extra pungency, maybe I would imply violence against two.

I have decided not to wear my nerdy name-tag that says, "Hi! My Name Is two." I'd be in danger at Comic-Con. I will be proudly wearing the Jayne hat with my pompom held high, should you want to talk to me in person.

Not two ↓

Not two ↑

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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